You see, this is a question that so many want to know, but few rarely explore. But shouldn't we? In this episode, Erin and Nicole chat about this *slightly* heavy question, but in typical fashion, with a twist.
The two also manage to talk about Russia (because wtf), share major life updates and reveal a groundbreaking stat about zookeepers. Yep, they went there.
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DISCLAIMER: This episode is not explicit, though contains mild swearing that may be unsustainable for younger audiences.
Tweetable Comments
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"This is not what I expected for my forties. It just wasn't the vibe I was seeking."
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"That's such a super sexy, ethnic name. It's also named after two dead hypothetical fictional, theoretical mobsters."
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"Sometimes good shit comes out of bad shit."
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"They're not paying for your minutes. They're not paying for your moments. They're paying for your lifetime of knowledge."
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"Go find a new environment to go live and speak your truth."
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"What do you stand for? I think this is something that all leaders should ask their people. I think that's something that people should ask their leaders."
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"Being a zookeeper is like 1% fun and 99% bullshit."
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"Zoom interviews are cruel and unusual punishment."
Episode Transcript
This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability.
In this episode, Erin Hatzikostas and Nicole talk about authenticity in leadership, the war in Ukraine, economic uncertainty, the value of time, family, grief, brain rest, thought leadership, career identity, and what it means to know what you stand for.
War, Uncertainty, and the Global Moment
Erin: Since the last time we talked, war broke out. It feels like two seconds after masks were lifted and we reached some semi-fake declaration that COVID was over, another crisis began.
Nicole: The backdrop of war in Ukraine is really strange. With my international relations background, having worked internationally, and having worked in energy, I keep thinking that we do not really know war in continental Europe the way earlier generations did.
Nicole: We grew up learning about it. Our parents and grandparents felt it intimately. But for us, the concept of war in Europe is terrifying. It symbolizes the possible beginning of something much bigger.
Nicole: We also survived the Cold War. Kids today deal with active shooter drills. We had bomb drills and nuclear fallout shelters. Now it feels like we're repeating the cycle in a new way.
Zelensky, Authenticity, and Leadership Under Pressure
Erin: I do think we need to pause on Zelensky. Maybe it's because I care so much about authenticity, but I think he is demonstrating a lot of what we talk about.
Erin: Yes, many of his messages are planned, but the way he talks to people feels direct and human. He speaks like he is talking to one person. Even in impossible circumstances, he is showing up with clarity.
Nicole: This is a terrible litmus test for authenticity, but I hope his authenticity serves him. I hope it helps him get the best possible outcome for Ukraine, keep people alive, and preserve some sense of national identity and future.
Economic Anxiety, Gas Prices, and Global Markets
Nicole: What's hard is that war is happening while we're also in a tough economic moment. We just came through COVID, which was a huge social and economic shock. Now markets are spiraling, inflation is rising, and gas prices are affecting people's wallets.
Erin: This is where your background comes in. You worked in energy and economics, so this is your shining moment.
Nicole: I am highly in support of economic sanctions. I think they are one of the greatest tools we have to put pressure on individuals without directly escalating militarily.
Nicole: We also have to remember that this is not about punishing average Russian people. The goal is to put pressure on the people at the top, where wealth and power are concentrated.
Nicole: The oil and gas conversation drives me crazy because it is a complicated global market. Oil prices are global. Even if we produce more domestically, that does not immediately change what is happening at the pump.
Nicole: People want quick fixes, but quick fixes can distort markets. High prices are painful, but they also spur innovation. The last time oil prices rose significantly, we saw more investment in alternative energy, electric vehicles, wind, solar, and cleaner technologies.
Erin: You know who I think wins in all of this? Aldi. I haven't bought a name-brand food item in weeks.
Nicole: Aldi for the win.
Family, Grief, and Brain Rest
Nicole: We both had major life events recently. I have a new nephew, and he is three weeks old and adorable. After everything, having a baby in the family feels like sunshine.
Nicole: I'm also grateful that I have had the time to fully lean into family. If I were still fully employed the way I was before, I would not have been able to be as present.
Erin: And I want to acknowledge the loss of Manny's dad. He passed away last month after cancer, and it happened faster than we expected. It was the kids' first close loss, and it was hard.
Erin: We were honest with them. It sucks. It's sad. And then, of course, the kids asked if there would be food at the wake.
Erin: A couple of weeks later, my son ran into a tree during recess while playing football. He had a concussion, a huge bump on his head, light sensitivity, and we ended up going by ambulance. Thankfully, he is okay now.
Erin: The doctor said he needed brain rest, and we were already going to Florida to see my parents. So he ended up recovering at a retirement community, which may be the best possible place for brain rest.
Nicole: I need brain rest. That might be my new favorite phrase.
Erin: The whole experience made me think about how there is never enough time. Never enough time for brain rest, family, friends, or anything. So we have to do our best to actually live in the moment.
When Your Kid Gives You Business Advice
Erin: Last night, my son basically became my 35-year-old therapist. My daughter had a last-minute school event pop up, I was trying to leave for Nashville to speak, and I started feeling overwhelmed.
Erin: I said out loud that I felt anxious. Then I was sitting with my son helping him with homework, and he said, "Mom, it's okay. You just need a reset. Do you have time blocked off for lunch? You need to block off some time."
Erin: Then he started asking how much I charge for coaching and basically told me that taking time for myself was worth it. He said that if I don't do what I teach, it could devalue my brand in the long run.
Nicole: There's a lot to unpack there. It's not just about one basketball game. It's about how you value your time and how you measure productivity.
Nicole: His interpretation of value is actually evolved. He understands that the value of your time to you in the present moment can be greater than the value of giving it away to others.
Your Value Is Not the Crank
Nicole: When people hire you to speak, they are not paying for your minutes. They are paying for your lifetime of knowledge, experience, learning, and perspective.
Nicole: Whether someone hears you for twenty minutes or an hour, they are buying the lifetime packet. They are not paying you to crank a crank for twenty minutes.
Erin: That applies beyond speaking. Especially for women, it can be hard to identify our value, own our value, speak to our value, and hold the floor under our value.
Erin: Early in your career, you are cranking. You are climbing the big hill of the roller coaster. But at some point, often in your mid-to-late thirties or beyond, you have enough experience that the value shifts. You don't have to keep cranking the same way.
Erin: The problem is that many people do not pause to reflect on what made them successful. They say, "I don't know. That's just what I do." But your value is not just the work you produce. It's your perspective, your experience, and your point of view.
Thought Leadership and Knowing What You Stand For
Erin: This is where thought leadership comes in. It doesn't have to be about how you got where you are. It can be your thoughts on leadership, the economy, operations, people, culture, customer service, or any issue you deeply care about.
Erin: The real fun happens when you walk into a meeting knowing that your value is much higher than the hour someone has with you because you have collected, curated, and developed a point of view.
Nicole: There's also something important here about age and experience. Companies talk about diversity, but they often miss age and experience. The energy and ideas of younger workers can be powerful, but they become even stronger when paired with the lived experience of people who have been around longer.
Erin: And someone who is 28 may be better at developing and sharing a point of view than someone who is 56. Age can give you more data points, but you still have to create the space to reflect and curate your perspective.
Erin: When I work with people who want to get promoted, I often ask, "If you were going to give a TEDx talk tomorrow, what would it be about?" It doesn't have to be polished, but if they can't name something they're passionate enough to talk about, we have work to do.
Nicole: That is one of your fill-in-the-blank brilliant moments. If we were giving leaders a test for maturity or readiness, we should ask, "What's your big thing? What's your TEDx talk? What do you stand for?"
Erin: All leaders should ask their people that. And people should ask their leaders, "What do you stand for?"
When It's Time to Find a New Environment
Nicole: People ask all the time, "How do I know when it's time to go?" If you are being a thought leader, bringing ideas, sharing experience, and building something meaningful, but you feel limited or undermined, it may be time to find a new environment.
Nicole: I have seen so many organizations where people got ahead by keeping quiet, following the rules, staying under the radar, and waiting for someone else to get out of the way. That is the norm, and that sucks.
Nicole: There is a better way to be a leader. There is a better way to become a leader. And a lot of it has to do with how we value ourselves.
Erin: It can start small. Your "big thing" does not have to be authenticity in the workplace. It could be your belief in great emails, customer service, or a better way to run meetings.
Erin: The point is that you take time to reflect, curate what you have learned, and share it with others. That is how you build the muscle of thought leadership.
Identity, Work, and Losing the Regular Paycheck
Nicole: One thing that has shown up for me since leaving my high-powered position is that I get defensive when people ask, "What are you doing with your time?" or "What are you doing with yourself?"
Nicole: I don't like how I'm showing up. What I'm realizing is that I have valued myself because I saw myself as successful, independent, financially stable, and someone who made it on my own.
Nicole: My self-worth was tied to being a worker, making a salary, and having my time rewarded by dollars at a regular interval. Without that, there have been moments where I feel stuck and low.
Nicole: When someone asks what I'm doing or how I'm making money, it hurts. Not because they are trying to make me feel bad, but because I am still figuring out what comes next and how to get there.
Nicole: I'm recognizing that one of the things that kept me cranking was a false sense of value. It was like a drug. Now that the drug is gone, I have to replace it with healthier behaviors.
Creating a New Narrative
Erin: I think it matters to have your response ready. Not because other people need to know, but because it can help you feel grounded.
Erin: Most people are not asking to attack you. They are asking because they're curious, and often because they are a little jealous. They may not want to be zookeepers anymore either.
Nicole: Being a zookeeper is probably 1% fun and 99% managing chaos.
Erin: Exactly. So name what you are. Write down twenty words or phrases that describe what you do or what this season is for you. Then start shaping the narrative.
Nicole: My problem is that I have fifty different things materializing, and I want to work on all of them. My brain doesn't want to focus on one thing because they are not instantly tied to productivity or value.
Erin: I want you to list everything and cross out 90% of it. Focus your time, energy, and action around one or two things, not ten.
Nicole: I think I need to actually make decisions. I've spent time figuring out where I want my energy to go, but now I need to decide.
Planning Time So It Feels Valuable
Nicole: I don't want to do the work. I will do the work. The issue is that if I do not pre-plan the time, I don't feel like the time is valuable. Then I get frustrated, angry, and beat myself up.
Nicole: If I say, "Nicole, you're going to spend all day Friday working on this idea," then I can do it. But if I don't give myself permission, I make myself miserable.
Erin: I'm going to be direct. You are going to continue to spin unless you have a coach or support. You have so much value in your writing, performing, consulting, and ideas. I want you to have the support you need to focus and take action.
Nicole: I know you're right. It's just hard because I have been successful for most of my life doing things on my own. But now I am trying to get to a better place, not because I am failing, but because I am ready for a different kind of success.
You Don't Get to the Next Level Alone
Erin: If you want to level up, you need a team. Even your earlier success was not truly on your own. You invested in expensive teams before. They were called Yale and Johns Hopkins.
Nicole: That's true.
Erin: So now the question is, what is the next support system?
Nicole: One thing I'm good at is allowing myself to take on other things when I'm uncomfortable or when something doesn't feel instantly valuable. That may feel productive, but it does not mean it is forward-moving.
Interviewing, Leadership, and Showing Up Consistently
Nicole: I had a job interview yesterday, and they asked me for my definition of leadership. I said leadership depends on the role, but for me it comes down to showing up consistently.
Nicole: I said I have three principles: consistency, transparency, and excellence. I do and say what I mean. I am overly transparent. And I bring my best to every situation.
Nicole: If that is not leadership in every capacity, I don't know what is.
Erin: That's your point of view. You brought your perspective and your thought leadership into the interview.
Nicole: Interviewing is hard. If you haven't interviewed in years, you forget how to do it. Zoom interviews are especially brutal when there are five people moving around on the screen.
Erin: We should do a whole episode on interviewing.
Nicole: Yes. Tips, tricks, and what to watch out for.
Change Comes Eventually
Nicole: I've been listening to Lauryn Hill lately, and there's a line that keeps sticking with me: after winter must come spring, and change comes eventually.
Nicole: I keep hearing that in my head. Hopefully we move through this war, this economic uncertainty, and whatever comes next. Whatever it is, change comes eventually.
Erin: And whatever it is, we'll be here to randomly talk about it.
