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BibleProject episodes

April 08, 2019 N.T. Wright Interview #2: Paul and the Powers
Welcome to a special episode of our podcast. In this episode, Tim and Jon interview the prolific theologian N.T. (Tom) Wright. They discuss Paul’s perspectives of spiritual evil and spiritual powers.
Thank you to all of our supporters!
Show Produced by:
Dan Gummel
Show Music:
Defender Instrumental, Tents
Mind Your Time, Me.So
Show Resources:
www.ntwrightonline.org
www.thebibleproject.com

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1 hr 4 min
April 01, 2019 To the Ends of the Earth - Acts E7
In part 1, (0-11:40) Tim notes the ways that Luke has mapped the story of Paul on top of the story of Jesus. He quotes from Charles Talbert.
“In Luke-Acts we find an architectural pattern of correspondences between the career of Jesus and the life of the apostles. In this way, Luke portrays the deeds and teachings of Jesus as the pattern for the acts and instruction of the apostolic church in the book of Acts. It is near impossible to avoid the conclusion that these correspondences between Jesus and his followers serve this purpose: Jesus is the master and the source of the Christian way of life that is imitated by his disciples.” — Charles Talbert, Literary Patterns and Theological Themes in Luke-Acts.
Tim points out several interesting symbolic ways that Luke and Acts are similar. For example, when Jesus and Paul initially go to Jerusalem. They are both greeted warmly, and they both immediately go to the temple. Both Jesus and Paul stand before someone named Herod. In both cases a Roman centurion is given a positive portrait.
In part 2 (11:40-21:30)
Jon asks why would Luke be so interested in comparing Paul and Jesus together? Tim says that the parallelism isn’t meant to lessen Christ’s status, but instead to show that Christ’s work is continuing in regular humans who are now being grafted in, being created new as a new humanity following in Christ’s example and life.
Tim shares a quote from scholar Michael Goulder:
“Luke is writing a typological history, the life of Jesus providing the template for the life of the church. It is the Pauline doctrine of the body of Christ which is finding here a literary expression in the patterns and cycles of Luke’s narrative. Christ is alive and continuing his own life through his body, that is, his church.” — Michael Goulder, Type and History in Acts, 61-62.
In part 3, (21:30-end)
The guys discuss how the book of acts concludes. To many modern readers it is an abrupt ending.
Tim shares a scholar Ben Witherington: “The ending of the book of Acts makes it clear that Luke’s purpose wasn’t simply to chronicle not the life and death of Paul, but rather the rise and spread of the gospel and of the social and religious movement to which it gave birth. Luke has provided a theological history that traces the spread of the good news from Jerusalem to Rome, from the eastern edge of the Roman Empire into its very heart. Rome was not seen in Luke’s day as the edge of the known world, and so the reader would know very well that Jesus’ mission to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8) was still ongoing in his own day. However, for Luke it was critical and symbolic that the message reach the heart and hub of the Empire, as a challenge to Caesar and a gateway into to the ends of the earth.
The open-endedness that the modern reader senses in the ending of Acts is intentional. Luke is chronicling not the life and times of Paul (or any other early Christian leader), which would have a definite conclusion, but rather a phenomenon and movement that was continuing and alive and well in his own day. For Luke, Paul’s story is really… about the unstoppable word of god, which no obstacle, no shipwreck, no snake-bite, and no Roman authorities could hinder from reaching the heart of the empire and the hearts of those who lived there. -- Adapted from Ben Witherington III, The Acts of the Apostles: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1998), 809.
Thank you to all our supporters!
Show produced by:
Dan Gummel
Show Resources:
Ben Witherington III, The Acts of the Apostles: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1998), 809.
Michael Goulder, Type and History in Acts
Charles Talbert, Literary Patterns and Theological Themes in Luke-Acts.
Show Music:
Defender Instrumental: Tents
Where Peace and Rest Are Found
Polaroid: Extenz

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36 min
March 25, 2019 Paul in Prison - Acts E6
In part one (0:00-13:30), Tim and Jon discuss the motives Paul had for putting himself in harm's way. Tim says that Paul's priority was to show a unified world between Jew and Gentile through belief in Jesus.
Tim then outlines Paul's time in Jerusalem and his arrest. Tim points out that there are six cycles that begin with Paul being arrested, then Paul is given a platform to speak, then the authority figure saying that Paul doesn't deserve death, but he is never released.
Tim says Luke is portraying Paul as a model for how Christians should relate to the powers and cultural structures of the world. Christianity is not a movement that is political, or social, or anything else, but it does encompass those things. It is an entirely different movement of an entirely different nature.
In part two (13:30-30:00), Tim continues to outline Paul's trials.
Tim quotes from Kavin Rowe: "The Christians are not out to establish Christendom. A new culture, yes, a new political movement, no." Tim points out that Paul submitted to the Roman authorities despite the flaws. It's a stance of loyalty and subversion.
Tim points out that Luke is laying Paul's story on top of Jesus' story of also being on trial by the Jewish and Roman authorities.
Luke wants the reader to think intelligently about how Christians should relate to the government. God's Kingdom is not a human kingdom; it is a vision of a new and better humanity. There is no such thing as being a Christian in private in the ancient world, nor should there be that option today.
In part three (30:00-35:00), Jon points out that Christianity is a movement that doesn't need the same type of power that the Romans had. It's a groundswell, not a top-down approach. Tim says that Luke is trying to communicate that the Jesus movement is its own thing that doesn't fit any other type of movement in human history.
In part four (35:00-end), Tim points out that Paul always seemed to interact with corrupt Roman politicians. But when he did, Paul encouraged that official to follow the road of high integrity that they aspire to.
Show Resources:
World Upside Down: Reading Acts in the Graeco Roman Age by Kavin Rowe
https://www.amazon.com/World-Upside-Down-Reading-Graeco-Roman/dp/0199767610/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=kavin+rowe&qid=1551724935&s=gateway&sr=8-2
Show Produced by:
Dan Gummel, Jon Collins

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52 min
March 18, 2019 Paul's Journey to Jerusalem - Acts E5
In part one (0:00-13:20), Tim and Jon briefly recap the series so far. They discuss Paul’s complex background. Paul was a Jew but was living primarily among Gentiles in different cities in the Roman Empire. Tim points out that because of his background, Paul’s reputation as a controversial figure continues to grow. He doesn’t fit into the normal social categories of the day.
In part two (13:20-33:00), Tim dives into Acts 11:27-30:
“During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.) The disciples, as each one was able, decided to provide help for the brothers and sisters living in Judea. This they did, sending their gift to the elders by Barnabas and Saul.”
Tim says that this is hugely symbolic. Paul is arriving back in Jerusalem with a group of international Christians bearing a gift of money to help give relief to the Jerusalem famine.
Jon points out that it's really remarkable that Paul was able to raise these funds, before the days of Kickstarter. Tim says that for Paul, the gift was a symbol of the unity of the Church. There was no class system and no division across racial, ethnic, or economic lines. The gift was a representation of all that Paul believed was possible in the communities of Christians.
In part three (33:00-end), Tim shares a passage from Ephesians:
"Remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace.” – Ephesians 2:12-15.
Tim says that this passage is more evidence that Paul really wanted Jews and Gentiles to be united as one Church.
Then in reference to Ephesians 3, Tim says that for Paul, the creation of the new humanity through Christ is the way that God also chooses to demonstrate his wisdom to the divine council.
“Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms.” – Ephesians 3:8-10.
Tim says that Paul believed he was participating in a cosmic story and that working to unify Jews with all other ethnicities through Jesus was what Jesus was praying for in John 17:21: “I pray that they will all be one, just as you and I are one—as you are in me, Father, and I am in you. And may they be in us so that the world will believe you sent me.”
Thank you to all of our supporters!
Show Resources:
World Upside Down: Reading Acts in the Graeco Roman Age by Kavin Rowe
Show Produced by:
Dan Gummel, Jon Collins
Show Music:
Defender Instrumental, Tents
Carelessness
Acquired in Heaven, Beautiful Eulogy

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53 min
March 11, 2019 Q+R: Son of Man - Son of Man E9
Show Notes:
Welcome to our Q+R on the Son of Man! Thank you to everyone who sent in questions. Here are the questions we responded to:
Matt from Australia: (0:55)
I've got a question about humans and animals. It seems like animals get a really bad rap. You've been talking about when humans don't pass the test or live as they're made to live, they're not truly the image of God, they act less than human or to be true, they act like animals. And I'm wondering what about animals is so bad or so wrong? Or are you trying to communicate about a different reality than an animal? Thanks!
Petra from the Netherlands: (6:20)
In the podcast (The Empty Throne), Tim refers to the Empty Throne in Daniel 7, but if I read Daniel 7 in different translations, vs 9 says "thrones" and vs 10 "the court place." So I get the conclusion that thrones are set for the court. In Matthew 19:28, Jesus tells his disciples that they will sit on the 12 thrones and judge the 12 tribes of Israel. I don't assume that's specific because in Revelation it says 24. My question is, where do you get the conclusion that the empty throne refers to the Son of Man because I come to the conclusion that it refers to the court. Thank you!
Rachel from Delaware: (12:35)
This is a question I've always had: where is Daniel in Daniel 3?
Stephanie from Virginia: (21:05)
My question is, why is Daniel portrayed as a new human, a new Adam, when he is not THE new human, the Messiah to come?
John from North Wales: (21:20)
I've found this series on the Son of Man really exciting. I have a question about Daniel. I was struck when you were taking us through those first chapters in the book of Daniel that Daniel himself actually seems to be a flawless human being. My working paradigm was that there are no heroes in the Old Testament except for God himself, but Daniel does actually seems to pass the test (or at least to not really fail the test at any particular point). So how do you interpret the figure of Daniel? Thanks!
Sam from Ohio: (26:04)
In Daniel 7:18, 22, 27, it speaks of the saints being given the dominion and kingdom to possess forever. Verse 27 ends by saying, "All dominions shall serve and obey them." But the ESV footnote says it might end by saying, "All dominions shall serve and obey him." Is it a possible interpretation to view the Son of Man as a figurative representation of all the saints of the Most High rather than a specific individual? Or what is the connection between the individual and the collective groups of saints? Thanks!
Douglas from Rwanda: (40:15)
I was curious about the use of the word "son of man" in other Old Testament books such as Ezekiel. Ezekiel appears to be written before Daniel and they use the exact same word "son of man." I wonder if you know if it has a different meaning, and if not, how is it related to Daniel's use of "son of man?" Thank you!
Ivan from El Salvador: (43:20)
I love the conversation about the Son of God and how he's someone God gave that title. How, with that definition, do we read John 1:12 that whoever receives him will be called a son of God? How do we understand that, or does John have a different definition in mind?
Thank you to all of our supporters!
Find more resources at www.thebibleproject.com
Show produced by:
Dan Gummel, Jon Collins
Theme music:
Defender Instrumental, Tents

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
58 min
March 04, 2019 Thieves by the Throne - Son of Man E8
In part one (0:00-13:15), Tim and Jon briefly recap the series so far. Then Tim says that there are three different nuances that Jesus uses when describing himself as the Son of Man.
The first nuance is Jesus calling himself the Son of Man when saying that he has divine authority. Here’s an example from Mark 2:8-12:
"Immediately Jesus, aware in His spirit that they were reasoning that way within themselves, said to them, “Why are you reasoning about these things in your hearts? “Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven’; or to say, ‘Get up, and pick up your pallet and walk’? “But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic, “I say to you, get up, pick up your pallet and go home.” And he got up and immediately picked up the pallet and went out in the sight of everyone, so that they were all amazed and were glorifying God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this.”
Tim says that when Jesus says, “The son of man has authority on earth,” it is recalling Adam/humanity's forfeited authority over the land/earth in Genesis 1.
In the story, Jesus steps in as an Adam figure and also a high priest figure. The major part of the priests' job is to intercede for sinners and offer sacrifices of atonement for them. Jesus picks up the Adam-priest mantle in this story.
Tim quotes from scholar Joel Marcus: “Adam was created to be the terrestrial representative of the heavenly king, to rule on earth as God rules in heaven… Jesus here emphasizes that his authority to forgive sin on earth derives its ultimate authority from God’s prerogative to forgive sins in heaven… The first Adam is associated with both royal rule and with sin and death, and so here Jesus is portrayed as the royal human who has power over both sin and death.” -- Joel Marcus, Son of Man as Son of Adam, 372-373.
In part two (13:15-26:30), the guys dive into another example from Mark 2:23-28:
"And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” And He *said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?” Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made because of the human, and not the human because of the Sabbath. So the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Tim observes that the Sabbath in Genesis 1 is an ideal of new creation that the first Adam never fully attained, and so it remained to be attained by a future son of man. Jesus is claiming to be that one. Tim quotes from Joel Marcus again: “From Genesis itself, to be sure, one might get the impression that the Sabbath was not created “because of the human,” but “for/because of God.” God rested on the seventh day from the labor of the preceding six, and therefore hallowed the seventh day in perpetuity… However, in Jewish tradition, scholars went to great pains to make clear that God wasn’t tired...but that the purpose of the Sabbath was for humanity, to provide rest for them… A similar line of thought is found here in Mark 2, the Sabbath was created for Adam’s sake and for the humanity he represents, not the other way around. The Sabbath was built into the structure of the world that was made subject to Adam. Therefore, Adam’s final son (the son of man), who has recovered dominion that his great forefather had forfeited, is the Lord not only of the world in general, but of the Sabbath in particular.” -- Joel Marcus, The Son of Man as the Son of Adam, 375-376.
In part three (26:30-36:00), Tim talks about the second nuance that Jesus uses when referring to himself as the Son of Man; he describes himself as suffering. The guys examine Mark 10:35-45:
"James and John, the two sons of Zebedee, *came up to Jesus, saying, “Teacher, we want You to do for us whatever we ask of You.” And He said to them, “What do you want Me to do for you?” They said to Him, “Grant that we may sit, one on Your right and one on Your left, in Your glory.” But Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?” They said to Him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized. “But to sit on My right or on My left, this is not Mine to give; but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”
“Hearing this, the ten began to feel indignant with James and John. Calling them to Himself, Jesus *said to them, “You know that those who are recognized as rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them; and their great men exercise authority over them. “But it is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant; and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be slave of all. “For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”
Tim cites Joel Marcus again saying that Mark 10:45 may be paraphrased as such: “Like his great ancestor Adam before the fall, the Son of Adam had the right and authority to be served, as ruler of all creatures on earth. But instead of exercising this right, the Son of Man has become the slave of all humanity, even to the point of dying for them. In so doing, he has reversed the effect of Adam’s sin, the death which he passed onto his offspring; the one Son of Adam has given his life as a ransom for the many children of Adam who were deprived of their life by the transgression of “the human.” -- Joel Marcus, Son of God as Son of Adam.
In part four (36:00-43:15), Tim continues examining this story by Jesus. Jesus believes that he, as the Son of Man is going to rule by serving and suffering. Tim says that this idea becomes significant when thinking about the Christian tradition of baptism. It is a symbolic representation of following Christ through the veil of death to be resurrected to new, real, eternal life after.
In part five (43:15-59:50), Tim points out the third nuance that Jesus uses to show himself as the Son of Man: the Son of Man will be vindicated after death. Jon notes that understanding these nuances really helps to fill in a lot of the blanks that round out Jesus' identity and actions.
In part six (59:50-end), Tim and Jon recap the whole series. Tim shares a final quote from Joel Marcus:
“The Son of Man” is an apocalyptic symbolic figure. It the Son of Man is a new Adam, then the Jesus of the Gospels presents himself as the founder of a new humanity. This is why the Gospel authors depict Jesus as carrying out his ministry in the “last days”, as the recapitulation and perfection of “the beginning.” In this context, the good news of Jesus’ opening message in Mark 1:15 (“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God has come near!”) is not simply that time of waiting for a new event to happen is over. Rather, he means that the old universe is dying and a new creation is being born.” -- Joel Marcus, Son of Man as Son of Adam, 385.
Thank you to all of our supporters!
Have a question? Send it to [email protected]
Show Produced By:
Dan Gummel, Jon Collins, Tim Mackie
Show Music:
Defender Instrumental, Tents
Royalty Free Spanish Guitar
Amber, The Loyalist
Heal My Sorrows
Where Peace and Rest are Found
Moon, Lemmino
Show Resources:
Brandon Crowe, The Last Adam: A Theology of the Obedient Life of Jesus in the Gospels
Joel Marcus, The Son of Man as the Son of Adam
Our video on the Son of Man: https://bit.ly/2D3wD9o

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
1 hr 8 min
February 25, 2019 Jesus With Wild Beasts - Son of Man E7
In part one (0:00-19:00), the guys introduce Jesus and the Gospels into the conversation. Tim remarks that there is a whole field of scholarship dedicated to studying how Christ is portrayed as a new Adam or a new Son of Man.
Tim focuses on Jesus in the Gospel of Mark.
Mark 1:12-13:
“Immediately the Spirit cast out into the wilderness. And He was in the wilderness forty days being tested by the Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him.”
Tim notes that the phrase “cast out” (Grk. εκβαλλω) is first used in the Old Testament account of Adam and Eve’s explusion from the garden of Eden (Gen 3:24). He also says that both of these stories are meant to be analagous to each other. Jesus is in the wilderness (garden) with the wild animals (Adam and Eve) in the presence of the angels (cherubim and cosmic mountain).
Tim cites a quote by biblical scholar Brandon Crowe: “Whereas Adam failed the temptation in the garden and was cast out, Jesus is led by the Spirit into the wilderness, a setting associated with Israel’s testing and failure. Unlike Adam, Jesus does not fail the test, and in both stories of Adam and Jesus “expulsion” the same Greek word ekballo is employed. In the wilderness, Jesus is with the wild animals, but remains unharmed [T.M. like Daniel], which is supposed to strike the reader as unusual. Jesus’ peaceful coexistence with the wild animals signifies his authority over them, and recalls Adam’s original dominion over the animals in the garden. Like Adam, Jesus has been granted the worldwide dominion, becoming the instrument of God’s dominion over the world.” -- Brandon Crowe, The Last Adam: A Theology of the Obedient Life of Jesus in the Gospels, 24
Tim points out that the temptation of Jesus in Mark, specifically the details of the angels serving him and him being with the wild beasts, is meant to show that Jesus is the new Adam, the perfect Adam who can coexist peacefully with animals in the wild.
Further, Tim points out that Jesus is portrayed as having authority over the other spiritual beings (angels) to show that Jesus is the ideal Son of Man figure.
In part two (19:00-18:30), Tim and Jon take a side tour and discuss how in Hebrew there are places where the Hebrew word adam can refer to either a specific character, Adam, or to humanity as a whole. The guys also discuss the nuances between the terms Son of Man and Son of God. Tim notes that Psalm 2 is a key passage for understanding how both of these terms link together.
To be called the image of God as humanity means to be the creatures where heaven and earth are bound together.
Psalm 2: “Why do the nations conspire and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth rise up and the rulers band together against the Lord and against his anointed, saying, ‘Let us break their chains and throw off their shackles.’ The One enthroned in heaven laughs, the Lord scoffs at them. He rebukes them in his anger and terrifies them in his wrath, saying, ‘I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.’ I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, ‘You are my son; today I have become your father.
Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession.’”
In part three (18:30-end), Jon asks why heaven and earth are supposed to be ideally imaged in humanity. Tim replies that humanity is meant to be related to the elohim. We are not elohim, but we are to share in a similar status of having a divine ability to rule.
Tim and Jon then dive into the temptation of Jesus portrayed in Matthew 4:8-11:
“Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.”
Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’ ” Then the devil left Him; and behold, angels came and began to minister to Him.”
Tim notes that there is only one other time in the New Testament where Jesus utters the phrase, “Get behind me Satan” or “Go, Satan” (in the NIV). It’s in Matthew 16:23: “Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns."
Tim notes that Jesus obviously sees that a satanic mindset is one where the mindset is human-focused and set on how a beast would rule the world, one of power and strength not of sacrifice.
Tim points out that after these temptations, you are supposed to see Jesus as a new Adam. He peacefully coexists with animals. He’s a new Daniel; he doesn’t bow down to the rulers. He’s a new David because he rules righteously. Jesus is the full package.
Thank you to all of our supporters!
Have a question? Send it to [email protected]
Show Produced by:
Dan Gummel, Jon Collins, Tim Mackie
Show Music:
Defender Instrumental, Tents
Yesterday on Repeat, Vexento
Morning, LIQWYD
Show Resources:
Exodus 4:22
Matthew 4:8-11
Psalm 2
Brandon Crowe, The Last Adam: A Theology of the Obedient Life of Jesus in the Gospels
Joel Marcus, “The Son of Man as the Son of Adam”
Our video on the Son of Man: https://bit.ly/2URk3BH

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
55 min
February 18, 2019 The True Human - Son of Man E6
In part one (0:00-12:00), the guys quickly recap the biblical story leading up to Daniel 7. There are many models of the Son of Man in the Old Testament: Noah, Moses, David, Joshua. They all get close, but they ultimately fail and are not able to be the perfect “seed of the woman” that will crush the snake and fulfill the prophecy given in Genesis after the fall.
In part two (12:00-29:30), the guys dive into Daniel 7:
In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying in bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.
Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea. “The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a human being, and the mind of a human was given to it. “And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’ “After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule.
After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. “While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully.
As I looked,
thrones were set in place,
and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
and its wheels were all ablaze.
A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.
Then I continued to watch because of the boastful words the horn was speaking. I kept looking until the beast was slain and its body destroyed and thrown into the blazing fire. (The other beasts had been stripped of their authority, but were allowed to live for a period of time.)
In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
Tim makes the following observations: The animals are like an anti-creation. They are extremely non-kosher animals. They are mutants, and they come out of chaotic, watery darkness. They are chaos creatures. Daniel sees the same throne room (v 9) that Ezekiel saw in his vision in Ezekiel 1. What Nebuchadnezzar had wanted, to be praised and worshiped by everyone, happens to the Son of Man when God exalts him.
In parts three and four (29:30-52:00), Tim and Jon cover the interpretation of the dream in v15-27:
I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. I approached one of those standing there and asked him the meaning of all this.
So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things: ‘The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth. But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’
Then I wanted to know the meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others and most terrifying, with its iron teeth and bronze claws—the beast that crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. I also wanted to know about the ten horns on its head and about the other horn that came up, before which three of them fell—the horn that looked more imposing than the others and that had eyes and a mouth that spoke boastfully. As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.
He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.'
Tim makes the following observations: The “holy ones” has a double meaning. It represents both the “holy” sons of God/elohim, that is celestial beings in the divine council, and it represents a true human race who are “holy” to God and fulfills their calling by following the true Son of Man.
Daniel 7 is a symbolic and cosmic depiction of a real, historical conflict (Antiochus’ attack on Jerusalem and defilement of the temple in 167 B.C.), that is part of an ancient pattern going all the way back to Genesis 1-3.
In part five (52:00-end), Tim observes that somewhere in Daniel 7 is a storyline that was crucial to Jesus and how he thought of his identity. So if someone wants to understand more about Jesus, they should invest the time to learn more about the Son of Man storyline in the Hebrew Scriptures.
Thank you to of all our supporters!
Have a question for the upcoming Q+R? Send it to us!
[email protected]
Show Produced By:
Dan Gummel, Jon Collins
Show Music:
Defender Instrumental, Tents
Pilgrim, Instrumental
Going Up, Lakey Inspired
Model Planes, Hands of a Craftsman
Show Resources:
Our video on the Son of Man: https://bit.ly/2URk3BH
Morna Hooker, "The Son of Man in Mark."
John Goldingay, "Daniel" (Word Biblical Commentary)
Crispin Fletcher-Louis, "The King, the Messiah, and the Ruler Cult" (ch. 6 of "Jesus Monotheism")
Michael S. Heiser, Ch. 30 of "The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible."

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1 hr 5 min
February 11, 2019The Beastly King - Son of Man E5
In part one (0:00-6:30), the guys briefly go over the previous conversations from the Son of Man series. Tim explains that in order to fully understand the Son of Man imagery in Daniel 7, Daniel 1-6 needs to first be unpacked. Daniel 7 is significant because it’s a culminating vision of the whole Hebrew Bible imagery told in one very dense chapter.
In part two (6:30-25:50), the guys go over the history of the Babylonian Empire and King Nebuchadnezzar. He was a king of the Neo-Babylonian Empire, a sort of resurgence of the previous Babylonian rule. Babylon had long been dormant while Assyria was the world superpower, but Babylon had a brief rise to prominence again under the rule of Nebuchadnezzar. He dominated Jerusalem and took their promising youth with him to Babylon. Daniel was in this group.
Tim points out a few hyperlinks to other parts of the Hebrew Bible at the beginning of the book of Daniel. Daniel is the "royal seed" carried away to Babylon who replays the test of Adam and Eve and succeeds!
Daniel 1:3-4: "And the king of Babylon told his officers to bring from the sons of Israel and from the royal seed… youths...who were good of sight and wise with all wisdom, and knowing knowledge, and understanding knowledge…"
Dan 1:5-7: "And the king assigned for them a daily ration of the king’s choice food and his wine, to raise them for three years so they could stand in his service. Among them were sons of Judah, Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah...but Daniel set it upon his heart to not defile himself with the king’s choice food or his wine…"
Dan 1:12: "Daniel said, 'Let there be given to us from the seeds, and we will eat, and water, and we will drink.'"
Daniel is depicted as a new Adam, who is brought into Babylon already having great knowledge. He refuses the forbidden food (Daniel ch. 1) and only increases in wisdom! Instead, he adopts an Eden-diet of veggies and water and is elevated to serve in the king’s court.
Tim’s point is that Daniel is the forbidden fruit that the king of Babylon has just taken. Daniel has an opportunity to eat the forbidden food of the king and break his kosher diet. He refuses the forbidden food and therefore passes the test.
In part three (25:50-end), Tim and Jon go over the two dreams that Nebuchadnezzar has leading up to Daniel 7. In Daniel 2, the king has a dream. Once Daniel gives the interpretation, the king worships Daniel.
Daniel 2:46-49:
"Then King Nebuchadnezzar fell on his face and worshipped (sagid) Daniel, and gave orders to present to him an offering and incense.
Then the king promoted Daniel and gave him many great gifts, and he made him ruler over the whole province of Babylon and chief prefect over all the wise men of Babylon.
And Daniel made request of the king, and he appointed Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego over the administration of the province of Babylon, while Daniel was at the king’s court."
Then Daniel 3 is an inversion of Daniel 2. The king wants everyone to worship an image of him. This is the story of the blazing furnace.
Daniel 3:10-12:
“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the image of gold.
“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. “There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve (palakh) your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”
So Daniel 2 and 3 are inversions of each other, and then in Daniel 4, the king has another dream. In the dream, a "watcher” appears. Tim notes that this is the only time that specific word appears in the Hebrew Bible. However, it also appears in the book of Enoch, a Jewish book written in the same time period.
The king calls Daniel again to interpret the dream.
Daniel 4:20-25:
"The tree that you saw, which became large and grew strong, whose height reached to the sky and was visible to all the earth and whose foliage was beautiful and its fruit abundant, and in which was food for all, under which the beasts of the field dwelt and in whose branches the birds of the sky lodged— it is you, O king; for you have become great and grown strong, and your majesty has become great and reached to the sky and your dominion to the end of the earth. ‘In that the king saw a watcher, a holy one, descending from heaven and saying, “Chop down the tree and destroy it; yet leave the stump with its roots in the ground, but with a band of iron and bronze in the new grass of the field, and let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, and let him share with the beasts of the field until seven periods of time pass over him,” this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king: that you be driven away from mankind and your dwelling place be with the beasts of the field, and you be given grass to eat like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven; and seven periods of time will pass over you, until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind and bestows it on whomever He wishes."
Tim notes that when the Babylons of this world acknowledge that God is truly the wise sovereign, then they can become the true human rulers they’re intended to be. But when they do not, when they turn their national power and glory into an idol (as in Daniel chs. 2 and 3), God shows them what they are: beasts.
The narrative contrasts the beastly Babylon with the human Daniel who submits to God’s rule and is elevated to rule by God’s wisdom.
So to sum up the episode: The king of Babylon’s worship of the divine image of Daniel in Daniel 2 is ironically reversed in Daniel 3, where his friends are forced to worship the false image of Babylon. These twin stories set up the tension of the book: What humanity will be exalted as the divinely appointed ruler of the world? Babylon or the “royal seed” represented by Daniel and his friends? The king’s worship of Daniel becomes a narrative image of the worship of the son of man in Daniel 7. And Daniel 7 is a symbolic and cosmic depiction of a real, historical conflict (Antiochus’ attack on Jerusalem and defilement of the temple in 167 B.C.) that has been depicted as part of an ancient pattern going all the way back to Genesis 1-3.
Thank you to all of our supporters!
Show Produced By:
Dan Gummel, Jon Collins
Show Music:
Defender Instrumental, Tents
Bloc, KV
Show Resources:
Our video on the Son of Man: https://bit.ly/2URk3BH
B. Mastin, "Daniel 2:46 in the Hellenistic World," in Zeitschrift für alttestamentliche Wissenschaft, volume 85 (1973), pages 80-93.
Crispin Fletcher-Louis, "Jesus Monotheism" chapter 6, "High Priestly and Royal Messianism,"

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1 hr 1 min
February 04, 2019 Power Over the Snake - Son of Man E4
In part one (0:00-13:10), Tim recaps the series so far. He says the Son of Man title is Christ’s favorite title to use to describe himself, and it originally comes from a dream in Daniel 7. Tim then recaps Genesis 1 and 2. Humans are created after the animals but are then called to rule over the animals. So the creation and power order is inverted. Humans are overcome by the animals when they listen to the serpent, and humans embrace an animal-like state. Tim emphasizes that flowing out of Genesis are two lineages: a human lineage, the seed of the woman, and an animal lineage, the seed of the serpent. And at some point, a Son of Man will deliver the seed of the woman from the seed of the serpent.
In part two (13:10-18:30), Tim and Jon dive into the imagery of animals in the Bible. Jon asks what is the proper relationship with animals for people to have. Tim speculates that animals are meant to be in a peaceful relationship with humans. And a peaceful connection with the animals is an image the prophets use to describe a new creation. (Lions, lambs etc. )
In part three (18:30-33:50), Tim dives further into Genesis. He examines the inverted first born/second born relationships in the book. Abraham has two children, Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael is the firstborn but is not chosen by God. Instead, God chooses Isaac. Then later in the story, Isaac has two sons, Jacob and Esau. Jacob is the second born and is chosen by God. Tim points out that the pattern is intentional.
In part four (33:50-end), Tim then moves into the account of the Exodus. Pharaoh says he wants to deal “shrewdly” with the Hebrews. This is a synonym of the snake saying it is the “crafty” beast. Pharaoh is now embracing an animal-like tendency and seeking to harm the Hebrews.
Then Tim dives into the story of the burning bush. God tells Moses to turn his staff into a snake ( snake (נחש) ). Many western readers see this story as some sort of magic trick that God is telling Moses to do. That's far from what's happening. Tim says the story is actually meant to portray Moses as a successful “son of man” who has power over the snake. This point is further emphasized when Moses and his brother Aaron go before Pharaoh to demand the release of the Hebrews. Aaron throws down his staff and it becomes, in Hebrew, a sea serpent. This is a different word than the previous word used for snake.
Exodus 7:8-13:
"Now the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, “When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, ‘Perform a sign,’ then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a sea serpent (תנין).’" So Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and thus they did just as the Lord had commanded; and Aaron threw his staff down before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a sea serpent (תנין).
Then Pharaoh also called for the wise men and the sorcerers, and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same with their secret arts. For each one threw down his staff and they turned into sea serpents (תנין). But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."
Tim says the point is Moses and Aaron becoming associated characters. They are humans who have power over the snake. Literally. They grab snakes and symbolically they prevail over Pharaoh. This theme is picked up by later biblical authors who see the symbolism and use the same word, “sea serpent,” to describe Israel’s enemies.
Isaiah 51:9-11:
"Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; [// the arm of Moses with the staff]
Awake as in the days of old, the generations of long ago.
Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, [= Israelite name for the god of Egypt]
Who pierced the sea-monster (תנין/tanin)
Was it not You who dried up the sea,
The waters of the great deep;
Who made the depths of the sea a pathway
For the redeemed to cross over?
So the ransomed of the Lord will return
And come with joyful shouting to Zion"
Ezekiel 32:2:
“Son of man, take up a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him,
‘You compared yourself to a young lion of the nations,
Yet you are like the monster (tanin) in the seas."
Thank you to all of our supporters!
Have a question about the Son of Man? Send it to us as we begin preparing for an upcoming Q+R episode.
Show Produced By:
Dan Gummel, Jon Collins
Show Music:
Defender Instrumental, Tents
Where Peace and Rest are Found, Beautiful Eulogy
Conquer, Beautiful Eulogy
Mind Your Time, Me. So.
Show Resources:
Son of Man Video: https://bit.ly/2D3wD9o
Gerhard von Rad, Genesis: A Commentary
Crispin Fletcher-Louis, Jesus Monotheism
Richard Bauckham, Living with Other Creatures

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1 hr 3 min

About BibleProject

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The creators of BibleProject have in-depth conversations about the Bible and theology. A companion podcast to BibleProject videos found at bibleproject.com