California Governor Gavin Newsom, presumably as a precursor to a run for the presidency, has been getting attention for a very Trump-influenced style of, uh, fighting back against Donald Trump. Is this where American politics is headed? Does it have to be?

Guest: Ben Mathis-Lilley, Slate senior writer.

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Podcast production by Elena Schwartz, Paige Osburn, Anna Phillips, Madeline Ducharme, Ethan Oberman, and Rob Gunther.

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