In this episode of Byron’s Loom, Gregory Mengel is joined by Mary Lynn Hutchison for a wide-ranging conversation about polarization and how we might break out of our informational and ideological silos. Mary Lynn is a former physicist, a professional grandmother, and currently serves as Co-chair of the Central Eastern Washington Braver Angels Alliance. She leans right. Gregory is a culture worker and writer focusing on the social, political, and ecological crises of our time. He leans left. Their conversation touched on many things, from the unintended consequences of local tax schemes, to how Democrat and Republican policies do or do not help rural communities, to Covid era school closures, to the current leadership of our national public health institutions. They agreed that real progress in depolarizing our politics will require not only talking across difference but making space for viewpoint diversity within our silos. And the most important tool we have for both these tasks is listening to people, especially people directly impacted by whatever social problems are up for discussion. More to come …

In this episode of Byron’s Loom, Gregory Mengel is joined by Mary Lynn Hutchison for a wide-ranging conversation about polarization and how we might break out of our informational and ideological silos. Mary Lynn is a former physicist, a professional grandmother, and currently serve as Co-chair of the Central Eastern Washington Braver Angels Alliance. She leans right. Gregory is a culture worker and writer focusing on the social, political, and ecological crises of our time. He leans left. Their conversation touched on many things, from the unintended consequences of local tax schemes, to how Democrat and Republican policies do or do not help rural communities, to Covid era school closures, to the current leadership of our national public health institutions. They agreed that real progress in depolarizing our politics will require not only talking across difference but making space for viewpoint diversity within our silos. And the most important tool we have for both these tasks is listening to people, especially people directly impacted by whatever social problems are up for discussion. More to come …

This is literally where it all started, in terms of the Byron’s Loom Podcast. It is the story of how trust in the Braver Angels Way turned a potentially polarized conversation into a productive working relationship. Byron and Sue Lani Madsen originally met through the organization Braver Angels. Both had experience with the practice of using Braver Angels tools to engage in conversations across differences. One day, Sue Lani wrote a substack article that upset Byron. But, instead of leaving an angry, self-righteous comment, he picked up the phone and called Sue Lani to tell her how he’d been impacted. To her credit, she was able to stay present and listen to him. Once they both had a chance to air their feelings, the conversation became something else. It became a dialogue about the dialogue they’d just had. And Byron’s Loom was born out of that phone call. The Byron’s Loom podcast is a series of conversations between people with different politics, guided by an intention to disagree accurately and find common ground wherever possible. We draw inspiration from this quote from Monica Guzman:

“Those who are under-represented in your experience will be over-represented in your imagination.”

This episode is the recording of that first phone call between Byron and Sue Lani. Please enjoy.

Braverangels.org

In this episode Byron was joined by returning guest Kaeley Triller Harms in conversation with Abraham Lateiner. Kaeley identifies herself as a Christian feminist and accidental activist working to support women’s rights within her Conservative Christian circles and beyond. Abraham identifies as a politically progressive feminist. His recent work has primarily been focused on men, with the aim of transforming cultures of masculinity away from their traditional emphasis on coercion and dominance. He wants to cultivate a culture that sees support as a essential value for protecting all forms of life. Kaeley and Abraham tackle the following controversial question: Can (and should) the hard-won sex-based rights of women be reconciled with efforts to support people with transgender identities? Their shared aim was to explore ways to support the flourishing of all people.

Leaning Into the Divide is a Podcast Series partnership between Forthright and Byron’s Loom and co-hosted by Sue Lani Madsen and Byron Odion, featuring regular guests, Kaeley Triller Harms, Roger Haynes, Gregory Mengel, and Raven Odion. In each episode we take on a potentially divisive topic using Braver Angels tools and a good-faith intention to disagree accurately while looking for common ground. In this episode, we discuss guns and gun rights from several different perspectives.

Summary

In this episode, Byron and his guests, Elizabeth Dahl and Kaeley Triller Harms, discuss the rising tide of Christian Nationalism in the Pacific Northwest, focusing on the influence of figures like Doug Wilson. They explore the way Wilson and other Christian leaders in this movement are using their positions of authority to manipulate followers into accepting a toxic teaching that demonizes empathy. They explore the potential for abuse within authoritarian, high-control religious institutions, as well as the impact of Christian Nationalist leadership on church communities throughout the region and the country.

Cults and Christian Nationalism Discussion

Byron introduces Elizabeth and Kaeley for a discussion on cults and Christian nationalism. Elizabeth, a staff member at Braver Angels, explains that the organization works to depolarize political culture by facilitating healthy conversations between people with differing views. Kaeley introduces herself as a writer, activist, and women's advocate living in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Acknowledging the complexity of the topic, Kaeley and Elizabeth begin by defining what they mean by "Christian Nationalism," distinguishing this specific movement in Northeastern Washington and Idaho from the way the term is sometimes (erroneously in their view) used to disparage Christian Conservative thought. Kaeley highlights the threat of this Christian Nationalism movement, which, she says, is seeking to save America by turning it into a literal theocracy. Elizabeth points out that for these Christian Nationalists’ approach to faith is highly legalistic and restrictive, much like cult. Elizabeth then takes a moment to clarify how she defines a cult, since the word is often misapplied. She offers a definition of cult drawn from the University of Texas website to clarify that she and Kaeley are using the word cult in a grounded and precise way.

Doug Wilson’s Influence in Elizabeth's Upbringing

Elizabeth also has personal direct experience with Doug Wilson’s brand of Christianity from growing up in an environment influenced by his teachings. She describes being homeschooled in an evangelical setting where Wilson's books and fundamentalist ideas became popular during her teenage years. Elizabeth explains that while her immediate family and church were not fundamentalist, she was exposed to these beliefs through social circles and her homeschool teachers. She provides examples of the strict dress codes and modesty standards practiced by some of her fundamentalist friends, illustrating the extent of their beliefs and practices.

The Misuse of Empathy

Having laid the above foundations, the conversation turns toward the so-called "the sin of empathy," which is currently gaining popularity on the political right. Kaeley shares about her experiences with the Doug Wilson tribe, and describes them as a cult-like high-control group. She highlights Wilson's influence in the broader Christian world, including his involvement in homeschooling curriculum and his connections with prominent Christian figures. Elizabeth and Kaeley discuss empathy and its real potential for misuse. They concede that empathy can be used as a tool to manipulate people. In the political sphere, for example, people’s natural empathy may be exploited to get them to agree with a particular set of policies. In domestic violence situations, abusers often use their victims’ empathy as a means to control them.

Christian Nationalist Leadership vs. Jesus’ Leadership

Elizabeth describes the leadership style within Christian Nationalism, in contrast to the teachings of Jesus. She argues that Christian Nationalism seeks power and control, rather than ways to be of service to others, and often prioritizes the reputation of the church over the well-being of its members. Kaeley shares her concerns about the language used by some Christian Nationalists, such as Doug Wilson, and how it contradicts the teachings of Jesus. Byron emphasizes that the influence of Christian Nationalist figures is growing rapidly and gaining traction with the emerging culture of hypermasculinity.

Christian Nationalism and Masculinity

Throughout the conversation, issues around the way Christinal Nationalism supports and draws on extreme, even “toxic” expressions of masculinity which emphasize control, especially of women, as a supposed Christian virtue. Byron offers a stedfast contrast to this ideology in his recognition and embodiment of the fact that true masculinity is able to be gentle and sensitive, and does not require a sense of control to be strong. Elizabeth and Kaeley share their experiences with gender roles and expectations. Both have lived experiences of transgressing traditional expectations of feminine women. The group agrees to have a future discussion about gender issues, with Kaeley noting she can speak to the harm caused by right-wing views on gender roles. They conclude by emphasizing the importance of empathy, with Elizabeth stating that denying empathy goes against traditional Christianity and Christ's teachings

Links-

Straight White American Jesus podcast- A 2 part deep dive into Joe Rigney’s book “the sin of Empathy”

Scene on Radio with John Biewen covers the complexity of this subject nicely on his scene on radio podcast series season 3- Men

Universiy of Texas page on the psychology of cults

Quick recap

Byron and Sue Lani discussed their recent learning experiences, particularly focusing on their podcast adventure and the importance of understanding different perspectives. Sue Lani also attended a town hall meeting in Ritzville, Adams County, where she observed a predominantly non-local crowd from Spokane County, and expressed her concern about the media's portrayal of such events. The conversation also touched on the importance of maintaining neutrality and objectivity in their conversations, the difference between reading someone's work and having a direct conversation with them, and the changing nature of conversations on social media.

Learning From Podcast and Communication

Byron and Sue discussed their recent learning experiences, particularly focusing on their podcast adventure. Sue Lani expressed her growing understanding of the other side's point of view, which she found healthy. Byron shared his realization that while he and Sue Lani were speaking English, they were perhaps speaking different dialects, necessitating them to slow down and unpack different points of view to stay connected and understand each other better.

Non-Local Crowd Dominates Town Hall

Sue Lani attended a town hall meeting in Ritzville, Adams County, where she observed a predominantly non-local crowd from Spokane County, who were not the primary voters for Trump. The meeting was characterized by shouting matches and unproductive discussions. Sue noted that the attendees were mostly progressive, with only one question related to agriculture. She also pointed out that the attendees were not representative of the local population, with only about 2% being from Adams County. Sue expressed her concern about the media's portrayal of such events, emphasizing the need for accurate representation of the attendees' demographics.

Building Neutrality and Objectivity in Conversations

Sue Lani and Byron discussed their experiences and challenges in maintaining neutrality and objectivity in their conversations. Byron shared his progress in building muscle to listen to opposing views and unpack his own beliefs. They also discussed the importance of seeking more information on topics they are less familiar with, such as Christian nationalism and trans conversations. Sue acknowledged her own blind spots and the need to learn more about certain issues. They agreed to continue their discussions and collaborations, with Kaylee playing a key role in tackling certain topics.

Direct Communication vs. Reading Work

Byron and Sue Lani discussed the difference between reading someone's work and having a direct conversation with them. Byron noted that reading someone's work can feel like a monologue, while direct communication is more of a dialogue. Sue agreed, suggesting that knowing the person can make it easier to disagree without demonizing them. They also experienced some technical difficulties during their conversation.

Twitter's Changing Nature and Impact

Byron and Sue Lani discussed their differing views on social media, particularly Twitter (X). Sue shared her experience of Twitter (X) becoming a less hostile environment for her, while Byron expressed his concerns about the impact of Elon Musk's changes on the platform. They also touched on the topic of online trolls and the changing nature of conversations on social media.

Understanding Knowledge and Biases in Discussions

Byron and Sue Lani discussed the importance of understanding one's own knowledge and biases when engaging in discussions. Byron shared his negative bias towards Elon Musk and his platform X due to Musk's recent statement about empathy being a sin. Sue emphasized the need to separate what one knows and doesn't know about a topic and to consider the context of statements before reacting. They both agreed on the importance of being fair and cautious when interpreting quotes, regardless of the source.

3-11-25 podcast

Summary

Participants- Byron Odion, Sue Lani Madsen, Kaeley Triller Harms, Paul Kivel

Paul and Kaeley's Introduction Meeting

Byron, Sue Lani, Kaeley, and Paul discussed their meeting, with Paul expressing his curiosity about the conversation's direction. while Byron expressed excitement about co-producing audio with Sulani and others. Paul and Kaeley introduced themselves, and Byron prepared to introduce Paul.

Retired Activists Share Social Justice Experiences

Paul, a retired activist and writer, shared his experiences and passion for social justice. Kaeley, a stay-at-home mom and accidental activist, discussed her commitment to defending women, particularly in the church. Sue Lani, a retired architect and journalist, talked about her transition from architecture to writing and her establishment of a nonprofit to raise rural voices in public policy discussions. Byron, a student and weaver of relationships, shared his background in radio and social justice, and his involvement in men's groups for collective liberation. The group expressed their interest in having further conversations on various topics.

Christian Nationalism Podcast Discussion

In the meeting, Sue and Byron discussed their journey from a disagreement over a substack article to the creation of a podcast on Christian nationalism. They planned to include self-introductions and a conversation on the topic. Kaeley and Paul, who have more knowledge on the subject, were invited to the discussion. Kaeley clarified that she is not an expert on the topic but is concerned about the growing popularity of Christian nationalism, which she sees as authoritarian and anti-freedom. Sue Lani shared her experience with a conservative Christian community in northeast Washington, describing them as ordinary people who wanted to be left alone.

Christian Nationalism's Influence on US Policies

In the meeting, Sue Lani and Byron discussed the topic of Christian nationalism, with Paul providing insights on the subject. Paul explained that the United States is a country dominated by Christianity, which has significant power and wealth. He emphasized that Christian nationalism is not about an extreme group, but rather an institution of power and wealth that influences policies and rights. Paul also highlighted the Christian dominance's war against the rest of the society, aiming to control all major institutions. Sue Lani brought up the debate about whether the United States is a Christian nation, and Paul responded by emphasizing the need to focus on the present moment and the toxic variations of the underlying values causing problems now and in the future.

Christian Nationalism's Growing Influence

Byron discussed his concerns about the growing influence of extreme churches in his area, particularly those promoting Christian Nationalism. Byron sited Dominick Bonney’s Substack as an excellent source for tracking Christian Nationalism locally. Kaeley provided more detailed information about Doug Wilson, a self-proclaimed cult leader in Moscow, Idaho, who has been linked to sexual abuse and has been promoting Christian Nationalism. Kaeleye expressed concern about the potential for this ideology to spread and infringe on civil liberties. Sue Lani and Paul agreed with Kaeley's assessment, with Sue questioning the extent of the influence of these fringe groups.

Christian Nationalism's Influence on Policy

Paul discussed the influence of Christian Nationalism on various aspects of American life, including the Supreme Court, executive branch, and public education. Sue questioned the connection between Christian Nationalism and policy issues like education and reproductive rights, arguing that these issues have other reasons for support. Paul maintained that Christian institutions are driving policy initiatives, while Sue Lani emphasized the importance of considering broader moral foundations in policy debates.

Christian Nationalism and Women's Rights

The discussion focused on the intersection of Christian nationalism and hyper-masculinity, particularly in relation to women's rights. Participants agreed that Christian nationalism is a growing concern within their community, with potential negative impacts on women. They highlighted the need to address policies that restrict women's rights and liberties, such as the proposed elimination of no-fault divorce. The group also acknowledged the significant voting power of fundamentalist and Pentecostal Christians, which can influence policy decisions. The conversation concluded with a call for caution in labeling Christian nationalism as a fringe movement, as it has already begun to shape policy in some states.

Respectful Dialogue Across Ideological Divides

The group discusses the challenges of having productive conversations across ideological divides. They explore topics like affirmative action, Christian nationalism, and authoritarianism, acknowledging different perspectives while seeking common ground. The participants agree on the importance of maintaining freedom and equal opportunities for all, as well as the need to push back against authoritarianism from both the left and right. They express appreciation for the opportunity to engage in respectful dialogue despite disagreements and plan to continue the conversation in the future.

https://braverangels.org/

https://paulkivel.com/

https://substack.com/@kaeleytrillerharms

Leaning Into the Divide is a Podcast Series partnership between Forthright and Byron’s Loom and co-hosted by Sue Lani Madsen and Byron Odion, featuring regular guests, Kaeley Triller Harms, Roger Haynes, Gregory Mengel, and Raven Odion. In each episode we take on a potentially divisive topic using Braver Angels tools and a good-faith intention to disagree accurately while looking for common ground. In this episode, we discuss Patriotism and Nationalism.