Capes On the Couch - Where Comics Get Counseling

Capes On the Couch - Where Comics Get Counseling

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Capes On the Couch - Where Comics Get Counseling episodes

  • Issue 192 - Anthony at Jersey City Black Comic-Con 2024 (Live Panel)

    Anthony recently made an appearance on a panel at Jersey City's Black Comic-Con 2024, and now you can listen to the presentation live! Fascinating discussions, great audience questions, and a beautiful environment all led to this - listen now!

    Transcript

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    1 hr 2 min
  • Issue 191 - Baccano! (Live Shenanicon Panel)

    We make our Shenanicon debut with our long awaited panel on Baccano! What makes these immortal mafioso interesting? Tune in to find out!

    • Intro
      • Who is Capes on the Couch?
      • What is Baccano?

    • Characters
      • Czeslaw Meyer - tortured and distrusting of anyone & everyone, ESPECIALLY immortals
      • Ladd Russo - psychopathic manchild with a… unique moral code (16:18)
      • Firo Prochainezo - the cutest, politest mob boss you'll ever meet (20:26)
      • Jacuzzi Splot - he'll kick your ass, right after he gets done crying about it (23:30)
      • Claire Stanfield - solipsism to its (logical?) conclusion
      • Szilard Quates - what does he want? Yes (32:48)
      • Q&A portion (37:48)

    • Ending
      • Plugs for social & GonnaGeek Network

    References:

    • Darkwing Duck - Anthony (27:00)
    • Jamie Madrox episode - Anthony (37:22)

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    44 min
  • Creators on the Couch - Grandma Chainsaw 4

    When Doc is away, Anthony & Allen will play! Allen Dunford returns to talk about the end (?) of the Grandma Chainsaw saga - listen now!

    • Intro
    • Background
      • Listen to the first 3 episodes if you're unfamiliar with the GC series

    • Grandma Chainsaw 4
      • Where does this issue start? (3:55)
      • Where did you come up with Hazel's true identity/form? (8:21)
      • SPOILER DISCUSSION (15:00)
      • SPOILER END - Kickstarter bonuses & tiers (34:28)

    • Any new stories coming up? (37:15)
    • Ending
      • Plugs for social
      • Taking a hiatus during July & August

    Transcript

    References:

    • GC4 Kickstarter

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    0 min
  • Issue 190 - Jack Russell

    Under the cover of a full moon, we shed a light on Jack Russell, WEREWOLF BY NIGHT! How many Warren Zevon references do we fit into this episode? Listen now to find out!

    • Intro
      • Apologies for delays in episodes - Doc and I going thru stuff (separately)
      • Reminder that Shenanicon registration is now open - still no word on exact date & time of Baccano panel

    • Background (3:13)
      • Jack Russell, Werewolf by Night, created by Roy Thomas, Jeanie Thomas, Gerry Conway, & Mike Ploog in Marvel Spotlight #2 (Feb. 1972)
      • Jacob Russoff is the son of Gregor Russoff, a Transylvanian baron whose ancestor was bitten by a werewolf working for Vlad Dracula in 1795
      • Gregor acquired the Darkhold and read it, triggering the latent curse and turning him into a werewolf - after he was killed, his wife Laura moved to America and remarried her brother-in-law Phillip Russell, and Jacob became Jack Russell
      • Jack's curse took effect on his 18th birthday, and shortly thereafter his family's driver sabotaged his mother's car to crash under Phillip's orders - before her death she told Jack the truth about his heritage and made him promise not to take revenge on Phillip (no promise was made about the driver, though…)
      • Spent most of the next few years on the run from the Committee, who wanted to capture him and use him for their own purposes - among the many people hired by the Committee was Moon Knight, who defeated Jack before having a change of heart and teaming up with Jack to escape
      • Spends a chunk of the 80s on a motorcycle driving around the country - after a battle with the Hulk, his father's spirit tells him he must accept his beastly nature or die; he does, and gains control over his transformation and abilities
      • Unfortunately his control didn't last, and he began seeing visions of Hell during his transformations - this drove him to alcoholism and suicidal thoughts until he encountered a woman similarly afflicted and under siege by a small town - they killed the leaders and agreed to help each other live free
      • He was given a vaccine by Michael Morbius that helped him regain control, and he joined the Midnight Sons - his new mindset was that of acceptance, and he was determined to find other "monsters" around the world and help them the way he had been helped - this includes Rahne Sinclair's son, who she rejected because the child was feral
      • He had his head blown off by Deadpool after Wade found him in bed with his wife - he survived, but it took some time for his head to grow back

    • Issues - Theme is "a sheep in wolf's clothing" (7:46)
      • Finally reached an acceptance of his werewolf nature, even if the world hasn't
      • Formerly suicidal alcoholic (14:10)
      • A drifter who's unattached to any one place for too long (24:28)

    • Break (32:12)
      • Plugs for I Am Your Target Demographic and Hops Geek News

    • Treatment
      • In-universe - Treat yo self
      • Out of universe - Focus on the addiction issues first, and then work on the other things

    • Skit (41:40)
      • Hello Jack, I'm Dr. Issues. - Hi. Man, I could have used you a long time ago.
      • *pause* Thaaanks? So, what can I do for you…now? - Just hear me out. I've hesitated to do any therapy because I didn't think anyone would listen.
      • Oh, so my reputation precedes me. -You never answered my calls or emails.
      • I can be scant in my availability, yes. But that should be a deterrent, right?. -Every review I read said that you are the most patient psychiatrist they've ever met, but you're hard to track. I like that. Maybe you can tolerate my story.
      • My goal is more than tolerance. I want patients to thrive. But sometimes you have to crawl, then walk, then run. -You got that right! So I did my homework. I know this is confidential as long as I'm not a threat, right?
      • Yup. -Well, what if I told you that there's only a certain number of nights where I was a threat, but I kept everyone safe with an airtight plan? Makes sense, right?
      • I guess -*interrupting* and what if I told you that I even went so far as to meditate to harness my rage in a form that was productive. Are you with me?
      • Is this a metaphor for male menopause or -*interrupts again* Heck man, I even found a, uh, "alternative healer" to basically cure me. This is some wild stuff, huh?
      • You sound like an infomercial right now. What is your angle? Are you trying to promote some woo-woo healthy positivity or what? I'm confused. You're way more upbeat than I thought you'd be. I just scrolled through your emails -Better late than never
      • *Interrupting* No wonder I blew you off. You sent me an autobiography that reads like Ann Rice decided to make out with Kafka. -*pause* So a bit melodramatic?
      • Therapy is supposed to be more than just venting. You say you have all of these tools to…wow this is long…survive with lycanthropy?! You could have just said "I'm a werewolf." -Well you always use those vocab words in your writing so I was trying to match you. And how dare you try to shame a patient. I've come a long way, you know!
      • No shame, no blame. Just…*sigh* I get this a lot. You want to connect on a human level. That's awesome. I'm impressed, because you're clearly putting the proper energy into this. But there IS a way to swing too far on that pendulum. I want to be your trusted professional, but I'm not your buddy. There's a difference. Let's focus on your accomplishments so far, since that's your focus out of the gate. -Cool! First off, I survived a family that sometimes turned feral. Lots of reconciliation.
      • Great. -I am on the sober path.
      • Wonderful. -I can live in my own skin…and fur.
      • Check. -No, further east than that.
      • Huh? -Nevermind, bad joke.
      • Not rushin ya -Huh?
      • Even worse joke. -*snaps fingers* You DO have a bright side.Anywho, what I'm trying to say is, I don't have everything figured out. But I've taken care of the boulders. Now I need to take care of the smaller rocks, the pebbles…you get it?
      • Yup. Much better clarity. I'll take you on as a patient under one condition -No werewolf?
      • How'd you guess? -Just a hunch. Oh, and here's my local pharmacy.
      • I don't think you need a prescription -It's the only one I know willing to incorporate silver compounds.
      • *pause* Welp, that's either a dark backup plan, or the wickedest joke of this encounter. *simultaneously* WHY NOT BOTH?

    • Ending (46:03)
      • Recommended reading: Legion of Monsters
      • Next episodes: Storm, Wonder Woman, Shadowman
      • Plugs for social & GonnaGeek Network

    Transcript

    References:

    • "BBL Drizzy" - Anthony (2:23)
    • Shenanicon 2024 - Anthony (2:50)
    • "Werewolves of London" - Doc (8:55)
    • "Papa Was a Rollin' Stone" - Doc (25:30)
    • SHE CAME DOWN IN A BUBBLE - Anthony (36:00)
    • "Hair of the Dog" - Anthony (46:40)

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    50 min
  • Creators on the Couch - Allen Dunford - The Herald

    We bring back friend of the show Allen Dunford to talk about his new baby daughter! I'm sorry, we bring him back to talk about his doctoral thesis! Wait, I mean we discuss his latest Kickstarter campaign THE HERALD!

    (And we also talk about those other things...) Listen now!

    The Herald #1: A Supernatural Western by Allen & Will — Kickstarter

    Transcript

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    42 min
  • Issue 189 - Deathstroke

    It's time to swim in the Deadpool and do the DEATHSTROKE! Some people would give their left eye for an episode like this. Those people probably need help just like Slade. Listen now!

    • Intro - Jeremy Whitley
      • Apologies for the delay

    • Background (2:18)
      • Deathstroke (Slade Wilson) created by Marv Wolfman and George Pérez in The New Teen Titans #2 (Dec. 1980)
      • At 16, he lied about his age to join the Army during the Korean War, and later met his wife, Captain Adeline Kane - after they married, they had three children: Grant, Joseph, and Rose
      • Subjected to an experiment where he was injected with a substance that drastically increased his healing, as well as giving him expanded use of his brain's capacity #BecauseComics
      • Started working as a mercenary, keeping his business private from Adeline, until a criminal kidnapped Joe to blackmail Slade - although Slade killed the criminal, Joe's throat was sliced, destroying his vocal cords and rendering him mute - this angered Adeline, who shot Slade through the right eye
      • Grant took a contract to kill the Teen Titans, but died after an experiment to give him superhuman abilities - Slade vowed vengeance on the Titans, blaming them for Grant's death, but was defeated
      • The Judas Contract - Slade used Terra to infiltrate the Titans, then once he learned their identities and weaknesses, systematically went after each of the Titans - Joseph joined with Nightwing to possess his father, and after Terra died, Slade was captured
      • After that, Slade occasionally worked alongside the Titans while still working as a merc - he was forced to mercy kill Joseph, who was a Titan known as Jericho and was possessed by the souls of Azarath
      • Gave Adeline a blood transfusion which drove her insane, and she tried to kill all metahumans, blaming them for Jericho's death - when she requested a mercy kill, Slade refused but Starfire obliged, and he cut ties with the Titans
      • Jericho possessed Slade right before his death, and used Slade's body to enact revenge on all the Titans - this led to Slade training Rose, his last remaining child, to kill Jericho, but his methods drove her insane
      • Was responsible for the destruction of Bludhaven and killing over 100,000 people to mentally destroy Nightwing - he was defeated by Batman, Robin (Tim), and Nightwing
      • New 52 - reboots Slade as a mercenary who lost his eye in a terrorist attack, and after his sons and wife were killed, he goes on a rampage to protect Rose
      • Dies in Rebirth after being killed by Red Arrow

    • Issues - Theme: Being too smart for your own good doesn't have to turn out this bad! (9:59)
      • Kids: They're a handful, am I right?
      • Intellectualization as an isolator
      • The definition of "Enough" (26:05)

    • Break (35:58)
      • Plugs for Sips Suds & Smokes and Frigay the 13th

    • Treatment (37:57)
      • In-universe - Give him a protection contract and make him honor it
      • Out of universe - So many examples with real-life veterans (41:35)

    • Skit (49:29)
      • Hello Deathstroke, I'm Dr. Issues. -Hello, Doctor. *pause* This is unusual and I don't like it.
      • Well, therapy or counseling isn't always meant to be fun, and lots of people hate going to the doctor, so -*interrupting* Not like that. I've been a wanted man for ages. You've seen patients like me in confined areas before. Yet you let me waltz in without a hint of security. No shackles, no guards, not even a warning. That doesn't make sense. I can only draw 2 conclusions. Either you are requesting my services, in which case you have no need for safety, or you have an unknown unknown, which uncharacteristically would put me at a disadvantage.
      • I'm sure you've read my profile. -From the "exposure" you had a while back, sure. Very sloppy, and yet cleaned up as if it never happened. Your current information is modest on networks but still acclamatory. But I'm sure you are referencing my ability to infer that you are a pacifist and would never entrust my means. Very well. I will take this session at face value. Humanity is full of idiots, you're no different.
      • That is quite the exposition and non sequitur simultaneously. I'll bite. What's wrong with humanity, and how does that affect you? -It's hard to act with perfection when you can't let morons know you are imperfect. I can exploit anyone I want. Sometimes it's pleasurable. It's certainly profitable. But I'm not above petty revenge. I've loved before. I hate even more. And yet, only one of those goes unrequited for long. No one will pity a mercenary.
      • You don't deserve pity. No one does. -*pause, genuine shock* Too Machiavellian of a phrase for a Hippocratic practitioner.
      • Too quick of a process for the smartest man in the room. No one deserves pity. They deserve grace, honesty, and empathy, the ratios of which can be seen as enlightening, punishing, and rewarding, depending on the circumstances. The chase is beneath you. By your own account, I'M beneath you. So why bother? Money? Really? -If I have mastered the rules of a game, then I should be able to keep my own scoreboard at my whim. But I have other motivations, and yes, I will admit that they are just as basic as any other *ahem* family man. I don't pretend to be stereotypical in my reactions, but I mourn my losses, too.
      • I feel like this is all a test of my wits. I have to prove to you I'm worthy of your time. You could have ended this…take of that what you will…at any point. Do you really think I have some sort of ace up my sleeve? -Unlike you, I don't use the colloquial "I feel" To substitute for "I think." And yes, I think…haha, I KNOW you have me scouted. Anything less and you are a trusting fool.
      • Try me. -I know you've encountered the Titans before. I created a diversion so they will be too busy searching for a fake battle hundreds of miles away. You are alone.
      • Am I? -I know about your latest burner phone. All signals from this office are blocked. It's a brick, now. No bats will be in this belfry.
      • Um…well… -Surely that can't be it, right? You have more to deliver to test my mettle? The archer? The Martian? The big blue buffoon?
      • Don't call me Shirley. -*Pause* You truly are an idiot like all of the rest.
      • Cool, then you don't have to waste your energy on killing me. -You're not a mark. That's the only reason you're still breathing.
      • I'll take it! -As if you have a choice. Pathetic. *door opens as he's about to leave*
      • Oh, and Mr. Wilson, I just wanted to let you know that you don't have to intimidate someone who is genuinely trying to help you. It makes you look like a casual jerk instead of a ruthless assassin. Amongst the government agencies, interstellar factions, extradimensional rulers, and plain ol' folks who want to see you suffer, I might be your only chance of living any semblance of a peaceful life. I'm risking my existence by talking to you and keeping my vow of confidentiality only if you mean what you just said, because I can have a clear conscience that you are a shrewd butthurt businessman rather than the essence of evil that those who conspire against you would want me to believe. I figured all of that out without anyone telling me a single word. So I may not be a queen on your chessboard, but I damn sure am NOT a pawn. -Do you
      • *interrupting* Slade. -*pause* All you had to say was my name, and we could have avoided the banter. No contacts, please, unless I come to you.
      • Now we have an agreement. Goodbye.

    • Ending (54:49)
      • Recommended reading: Judas Contract
      • Next episodes: Storm, Wonder Woman, Shadowman
      • Plugs for social & GonnaGeek Network

    References:

    • Teen Titans Go! To the Movies - Anthony (1:45)
    • Dennis the Menace - Anthony (3:02)
    • Terra episode - Anthony (5:35)
    • "Cats in the Cradle" by Harry Chopin - Anthony (8:28)
    • The Simpsons - Homer's half-assed overparenting "Grampa vs. Sexual Inadequacy" - Doc (14:04)
    • Hamilton:
      • "Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Tells Your Story" - Anthony (32:43)
      • "That Would Be Enough" - Anthony (33:14)
      • "Satisfied" - Doc (38:33)

    • Cast Away - Doc (58:35)

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    1 hr
  • Creators on the Couch - Erica Schultz 6

    We sit down for the SIXTH time with writer Erica Schultz in advance of the release of Rat City. Get comfy, folks, this is our longest creator interview yet - almost TWO HOURS LONG!

    • Intro
    • Background
      • What would it take to get you on a Marvel ongoing?
      • Dream character & artist/team?

    • X-23: Deadly Regenesis
      • Why go back to this period of Laura's life?
      • Created Haymaker, a transmasc non-binary MMA fighter, as the main villain - how did that come about? (21:20)

    • Hallows Eve (28:31)
      • New evolution for Janine Godbe/Elizabeth Tyne/Mary Bailey/Sarah Porter
      • Powered masks: did you come up with the masks first and then their impact on story, or was it "what's the story?" and then work the masks in?

    • What If: Dark Moon Knight (34:08)
      • How did you select this particular jumping off point? Moon Knight vs. Bushman happens so many times, why this one?
      • Nice to see Marlene take an active role in a MK story, even if it's not necessarily clean

    • Daredevil: Gang War (50:06)
      • Previously written Matt as Daredevil, now Elektra: how to write legacy characters with different voices
      • What's it like working on an event tie-in? How much freedom do you have for story you want to tell within obvious constraints, how much editorial oversight, etc?

    • Rat City (77:15)
      • How did you get this gig?
      • Spawn cover for Deadliest Bouquet, now an actual Spawn book!
      • What led to this expansion of the Spawn universe?
      • How much do you have to understand Spawn to follow this story?
      • Love the commentary on soldiers being chewed up & spit out, flaws of capitalism, etc.

    • Any new stories coming up?
      • Blood Hunters & Darth Maul Black White & Red: - more Marvel mini/tie-ins

    • Ending
      • Plugs for social

    References:

    • Erica's website
    • Erica's interview on ITK - Anthony (34:19)
    • Key & Peele - Text Message Confusion - Erica (57:10)
    • Dirty Dancing "I carried a watermelon" - Erica (65:17)

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    1 hr 51 min
  • E188 - Robbie Baldwin

    After months of talking about it, we finally get overridden with guilt and break down ROBBIE BALDWIN! Whether Speedball or Penance, this rapid-fire hero has no shortage of issues - listen now!

    • Intro
      • SIX YEARS!!!
      • New subseries: Colleagues on the Couch, where we interview MH professionals about their work in the field

    • Background (6:55)
      • Robbie Baldwin (Speedball) created by Steve Ditko and Tom DeFalco in The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #22 (Jan. 1988)
      • Robbie Baldwin is a Connecticut high school student who is bombarded with other-dimensional energy during an accident at a lab he works at - the explosion gives him endless kinetic energy, which also creates a protective force field
      • He calls himself Speedball and begins working as a teenage superhero, coming into conflict with his district attorney father, who despises masked vigilantes
      • He later joins the New Warriors, but his frequent trips to New York to join the team create stress on his home life, and his parents divorce shortly after learning the truth about his abilities
      • Robbie is at the center of Civil War: He and the New Warriors attempt to capture a group of villains, and Nova explodes, killing 612 people including 60 children - Robbie initially was thought dead but was the only survivor - his kinetic field kept him alive, but as a result of the overexertion he loses his powers
      • After being arrested, he is shot in the spine by a father of one of the children killed in the blast - this leads to him changing his mind and registering
      • He has a new suit made, one with 612 internal spikes to cause him constant pain - calling himself Penance, he joins the Thunderbolts, where he is under constant surveillance
      • He stole a SHIELD jet and made his way to Latveria, where he defeated Doctor Doom in combat to get his hands on Nitro, who was being held prisoner there - Robbie placed his spiked suit on Nitro to torture him
      • After Doc Samson was able to make headway with Robbie in several therapy sessions, Norman Osborn had him heavily sedated and manipulated by a therapist to keep him in a mentally fragile state for Osborn's own machinations - after a battle with some of his former New Warriors teammates, he is able to break free of the conditioning
      • He joins Avengers Academy, calling himself Speedball again, in an effort to seek forgiveness for his previous actions, although he still retains much of the Penance guilt and attitude - after defeating a group of villains at the Stamford memorial site, he quits the Academy and teams up with Justice to reform the New Warriors, where they recruit Sam Alexander among others
      • Joins CRADLE, where he enforces the law preventing anyone under the age of 21 from operating as a superhero

    • Issues (14:41)
      • Conflict with his parents over him being a teenage superhero
      • Survivor's guilt over the Stamford incident (24:50)
      • Severe PTSD (35:29)

    • Break (42:44)
      • Plugs for Into the Knight, Comic Book Keepers, and Al Ewing

    • Treatment (44:40)
      • In-universe - Focus on other feelings Robbie could have expressed to people
      • Out of universe - (47:01)

    • Skit (51:52)
      • Hello Robert, I'm Dr. Issues. -Robert, huh? So I guess this is meant to be that kind of encounter. Hello, doctor.
      • I didn't mean to infer that your formal name implies a demure tone. I've seen Robbie in your chart. Is that preferred? -Whatever floats your boat. You mentioned my chart, so I take it Doc Samson gave you my records? I said it was ok.
      • Yeah, but I don't dwell on what other doctors have done. Even if they're literal giants in their field… What can I do for you now? -That's what's weird about a meeting like this. I'm not sure I'm in the right frame of mind to get help.
      • That's either quite insightful or quite dangerous. -Why not both?
      • Fine. Care to elaborate? -Lots of lives lost. I'm involved. I almost die. I lose everything. THAT'S when most people think 'hey, that guy needs therapy.' But the focus is on blame. I even do it myself. Work to be done, one way or another. I'm channeling it. Revenge. Yadda yadda, it works.
      • Parts of it work, but go on. -I'm seeing Doc Samson AFTER all of that. Then I get some psychobabble manipulative nonsense, all on accord of some narcissistic bureaucrats that don't really care about me, and it all comes tumbling down. I STILL work my way out of that mess, and I'm kind of bouncing around ever since. *chuckles* I swear, I didn't intend that.
      • Humor is great as a coping mechanism. - I used to think so. My jokes fell flat once people started dying. *sighs* Doc, do you think people change their personality?
      • If you're asking for my opinion on multiple persona -*interrupting* No no no, I just mean…for the longest time, I'm no expert, but I've heard so many mental health folks talk about how some personalities can't be fixed. But I have a problem with that. I don't think personalities are what YOU people think they are.
      • This is way deeper than I expected. Alright, what's your theory? -I had a chance to see the world in a new dimension…like, really different. And I realized that it was all just a different way of seeing myself. So when something catastrophic happened, I changed my mind. Now I'm left wondering…why can't we all do that? What limits a person to who they think they are?
      • I…um…I don't pretend to know the answer to that. -And that's why I don't think I need this kind of help right now. You are probably great at what you do, but you're looking for illness. I've had that mindset too, and it caused me more pain. I don't want to look for fragility, or loathing, anymore than I already have. I intentionally walked that path with purpose, and even if I can't get the brightness the way I had it before, I know it's there.
      • You rebounded well -*pause* Sooooo, was that your way of bringing levity or…
      • *sigh* I don't know man, I can't quite read the room with you as well as I usually do, so I'm letting it ride. On one hand, congratulations. I'm humbled by your ability to endure disasters and maintain resilience. On the other hand, I'm getting a hint that there's something always brewing with you under the surface.Doc Samson can be forceful, so he's the type to challenge head on. I don't do that. - At least I don't have to worry about you punching me into the stratosphere when I get pissed off. *genuine laugh*
      • You have a nice laugh. *pause* I think I can answer your question better now. I DO think people can change anything they want about themselves within reason. The friction, both internal and external, depends on their motivation, energy, and habits, and support. And, I think that's true for each particular trait, with a potentially longer timeline for those things that prove to have adverse consequences in the immediate term. -*pause* Now who's getting deep?
      • So I'm not pushing you to do anything you don't want to do. If you are having troubles with transitions, that's your sticking point. I'm your man. -Naw, the sticking points were for someone else.
      • *groan* Really? -Sorry, I have a bit of gallows humor in me.
      • Then I think any future sessions are going to go juuuuuuust fine.

    • Ending (57:20)
      • Recommended reading: Civil War: Front Line, OR New Warriors Vol. 5
      • Next episodes: Deathstroke, Jack Russell, Storm
      • Plugs for social & GonnaGeek Network

    References:

    • Sam Alexander episode - Anthony (13:21)
    • A Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood - Anthony (31:08)
    • GI Joe parody videos - Anthony (46:06)

    Apple Podcasts: here

    Google Play: here

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    1 hr 1 min

About Capes On the Couch - Where Comics Get Counseling

From the publisher's feed

Saving the world doesn't necessarily mean you go home happy. How's the mental health of your favorite superhero? A comic aficionado and a board-certified psychiatrist look at the various neuroses of…