All sorts of setbacks can come up during your career. You narrowly miss landing your dream job. You get put on a project you don’t love. You have a horrible manager. You go through a round of budget cuts. You have a family emergency come up. You have a sudden health issue. Or you realise you’ve taken the wrong job.

We all experience disappointments, stressors, or unexpected twists and turns in our career that test our resilience, patience, and fortitude. Career setbacks can’t be avoided. No matter how well you plan things out, stuff comes up, and your ability to navigate and manage those setbacks will make the difference between you getting stuck in a rut or bouncing back to find a better way forward.

In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Ben Kuhl, a sports and events hospitality management professional turned woodworking, shelf-making craftsman shares his thoughts on his shift from white-collar to blue-collar work, and I also share some thoughts on the hidden blessings behind career setbacks.

During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of recognising and embracing career setbacks as an opportunity to shift your career in a new direction.

Consider a situation in your own career you’ve found stressful, unsettling, or disappointing. Then, think about what this experience may be telling you about what’s truly important to you at this moment in your life and career.

What’s one step you could take in the new year to honor that priority and move yourself in a more promising direction?

00:00:00 Overview

Ben Kuhl initially built his career in sport management and hospitality, gaining experience in operations, events, and client service. After getting laid off from his most recent role in product management, he launched Shelf Expression, a Charlotte woodworking brand specializing in custom, high-end floating shelves and mantels.

His background gives him a unique edge in blending business strategy with hands-on craftsmanship. Today, his shelves ship nationwide while maintaining a focus on quality and design. Learn more about Ben’s work on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram, and be sure to check out Ben’s Etsy store.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!

Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles.

[00:03:22] Joseph: Okay, well let’s just start off by getting a lay of the land. What’s happening in your current life right now? Like what’s been keeping you busy both personally and professionally?

[00:03:33] Ben: I own my own business. Started a woodworking business back in the beginning of 2020, right before Covid. And ever since then, things have just absolutely exploded with work. So my woodworking business, I primarily focus on floating shelves and mantles. And yeah, things in 2020 just exploded and it’s just snowballed from there. So my life right now is woodworking out of my little two car garage and my family. So my wife, I have two kids, a nine year old and seven year old. So trying to figure out the balance between working from home, you know, on nights and weekends and also trying to be there for my kids is primarily what takes up most of my life at the moment. So maybe in a half hour for scrolling on Instagram before bed. But mainly those things.

[00:04:17] Joseph: It’s interesting when you’re running your own business. It’s kind of a balance between running your business, making sure you’re still spending time with your kids, making sure you have time to actually rest here and there, and also just have some downtime to just mentally check out a little bit, because I know it can be all consuming to run your own business. Can I hear a little bit more about the types of woodworking that you do at Shelf Expression, which is the name of your business?

[00:04:43] Ben: I started the business back, like I said, end of 2019, beginning of 2020, just making generic floating shelves to help pay for childcare, any additional unforeseen bills that came up and posted those on Etsy and they really took off. Then March of 2020 lockdown happened. Everybody was at home. They were redecorating their homes. They were trying to figure out how to bring a little bit more life into their office or their home offices. When everybody was at home in lockdown and things exploded. So right now I focus 95% on making floating shelves. It’s almost don’t really like to say that I’m a woodworker, because it’s one of the most, I wouldn’t say boring aspects of woodworking, but it’s shelf making. So I love being able to get creative and try to figure out different ways that I can keep my mind fresh on making the shelves as I go along. But yeah, 95% of my woodworking is making high end floating shelves and then also fireplace mantels, so hopefully continue to grow.

[00:05:45] Joseph: Well, I do want to come back to your time now as a shelf. I’m just going to call it a shelf craftsman.

[00:05:51] Ben: There you go.

[00:05:52] Joseph: Perfect. Yeah, I actually have some questions about shelves for you, which we can come back to later. But exactly. I do want to go back to your time before working in this space. And you used to work as an event manager and eventually as a director of product management for Sports Hospitality Company. But before we get to that, I’d love to hear a little bit more about you and just where you grew up. And I guess specifically, what do you remember being interested in during your childhood days?

[00:06:23] Ben: So I grew up in north central Ohio, right on Lake Erie, about 45 minutes west of Cleveland on a farm. So my childhood was always helping my dad out on the farm. When I was younger, as I got a little bit older it was more sports. So being involved in basketball and football and baseball, as I did through middle school and high school in the summers, waking up at five in the morning and picking sweet corn and being covered in pollen and always having that little bit of a blue collar mentality behind, you know, seeing my dad come home at 8:00 at night and being out for 14 to 16 hours drove home with me. The how important work ethic is to being successful and being a, you know, a son of a farmer really taught me that. You know, unfortunately, a lot of times, no matter how hard you work, you often aren’t as successful as you could be, especially in farming, because there are so many variables that play into being successful, like weather and markets and soil conditions, and seeing him work his tail off and being upset that it hadn’t rained in a month. Or maybe it’s rained five inches over the last two days, and knowing that your yield was going to suffer because of that really made me start to think about, you know, maybe carrying on the family farm isn’t something that I had as much interest in as I did when I was a kid. So that’s when once I started transitioning to being more involved in sports in the city I grew up in, started thinking about more about going off to college and getting a degree and getting out of north central Ohio. You know, my parents are so prevalent through my upbringing and the instilling of work your tail off and hopefully good things will happen. At least it’ll set you up to have a positive outcome for the rest of your life if you work hard.

[00:08:24] Joseph: As you may recall, when we first chatted, I actually grew up in Ohio, also myself. I spent about age 2 to 6 in Hamilton, Ohio. I grew up in a very not fully rural, but it certainly wasn’t in an urban area like you mentioned. Very blue collar, very kind of ordinary. I would say life, but it does instill you with a lot of good values and good work ethic. Now you would eventually go on to Ohio University and you ended up studying sports and Fitness Administration. You did mention that there was, at least I guess, a potential consideration of continuing with the family farm business. Was that a very straightforward decision for you, or was that something you had to kind of wrestle with? I’d be curious how you ended up going into that.

[00:09:09] Ben: It wasn’t necessarily something where my parents came to me and said, you know, if you want to continue on the family farm, it’s yours. I was the only male in my family tree that it kind of was implied that it would be mine if I wanted it. I would say probably around middle school I started to lose interest in continuing, and I think I’ve always had a sense of wanting to get out and see what else is out there in the world. As I transitioned to being more involved athletically, I was helping out less and less around the farm. So it wasn’t a hey, Ben, do you have any interest this in this or not? It was more of an unsaid. Okay, we understand that farming isn’t for you. So that’s kind of how the progression went.

[00:09:49] Joseph: Well, let’s talk now about your time working in event management? I understand you started off as an event coordinator, eventually became an event manager. Tell us a little bit about this chapter of your career and what you were focused on.

[00:10:02] Ben: Graduating from OU or Ohio University with a sports management degree. All I wanted to do was work for a professional sports franchise. So after graduating from college, moved out to Seattle to work for the Seattle SuperSonics. It was an amazing experience being on the ground floor. We were charged with basically being telemarketers, trying to call anybody who had expressed interest within the last five years in Seattle supersonic tickets, trying to get them to upgrade to a season ticket package. That part wasn’t the most. It wasn’t the best perk of the job. So also, working game nights really gave me an idea into what it could be working in event management, being on the floor when the players are coming out. Being close to the locker room, that was what really excited me, and sales was never Really a driving factor for me to want to work in sport management. Unfortunately, to get your foot in the door in sport management, you usually have to start as a some type of sales position, whether it’s inside sales or group sales. So after being there for a few years, the Sonics moved to Oklahoma City and then worked for a car sharing company, Zipcar, which I believe. I think they’re still around.

[00:11:13] Ben: Yeah. As a marketing coordinator in the Seattle branch, and my main task was planning events in conjunction with the marketing manager in Seattle. And that kind of really got me into the event management mindset. Really loved starting with a blank sheet of paper, six months or even a year out and whiteboarding exactly what we wanted the event to look like, what our goals were for the event, and kind of forming the event around our goals and trying to figure out how we were going to meet those goals. So Zipcar, I would say my love for event management really started there. And then from there we decided that we wanted to do something where we felt like we were giving back to the community, and we decided that we were going to quit our jobs as a professional and move to Thailand and teach English.

[00:12:01] Joseph: What year was this, Ben?

[00:12:02] Ben: 2010 2011.

[00:12:04] Joseph: Okay.

[00:12:05] Ben: So we moved back to Pittsburgh, where my wife was from, to save up some money. I continued my job with Zipcar in the Pittsburgh market as an event manager, and we moved overseas and we taught English in Thailand for seven months in travel. Yeah, it was a very 180 on our career path. Our family and friends were telling us that it was career suicide, that, you know, people were going to look down on the gap in our resumes when we came back. But we would never change that in a million years. What happened before I left for Thailand? I helped out a friend working the masters with an event company that he works for, and I hit it off with the event manager prior to leaving. And on the way back. And this is in Charlotte now, on the way back from Thailand, I reached out to her and asked her if there was, you know, by chance, any roles that were available to come and continued my path in sport and event hospitality and event management. And there is a role that was available to me. And I came and we moved from Thailand back to Charlotte, and I started in event hospitality.

[00:13:13] Joseph: I understand part of this is about selling tickets, getting people to events, but when you talk about the hospitality side of it, what exactly did that entail?

[00:13:21] Ben: So a leagues and venues will have a certain percentage of tickets that they’ll sell a la carte to anybody who has access to them, and then they’ll set aside a certain amount of tickets where they will couple on site hospitality with those tickets, so that on site hospitality would be a tent or a VIP room, that the people who purchased these hospitality tickets will have access to. And we’ll go ahead and we’ll couple other exclusive offerings like player meet and greets. High end food and beverage. Backstage passes, behind the scenes tours with those hospitality packages. And those will be sold obviously as a premium above what the ticket prices were sold at and the venue or the organizing body that we were partnering with, we would get a percentage of those sales. So it was just a way for them to another revenue driver for that business.

[00:14:12] Joseph: And how are you finding that experience so far? Like what was running through your head at this point in your career, having come back from Thailand, now you’re working in event management and hospitality management. Did you enjoy it? Were you finding it rewarding? Like what was your level of satisfaction?

[00:14:29] Ben: This was a little bit of a foreshadowing to what I do now, but the work leading up to the events was always tough. I’m not going to sugarcoat it. Long hours being away from home. Very stressful because you have people, understandably so. You have people that are spending thousands and thousands of dollars on these packages. And if something doesn’t go right with that, you are the person that hears about it. You are the person who has to try to figure out how to put out the fire. So there was a lot of stress involved with it. But once you got to the event and everything was running smoothly, and you looked around and you saw all these people with the biggest smiles on their faces and having an amazing time. The finished product always made the work leading up to it worth it. I see that a lot now as a parallel to what I do now. There’s a lot of work with the shelves that I do the way a lot. You know? My hands are constantly covered in splinters and wood stain. But getting the pictures and the reviews, once my customers have them installed on their on their walls and the glowing positive things that they have to say about it makes it worthwhile to just knowing that I had a part in bringing a little bit extra something into their home. So. Same with event management. Leading up to extremely stressful, very high paced environment because we were 20, 30, 40 events a year. So you’re planning for one, you’re executing another, you’re starting the planning process and another all at the same time. But when you’re there, it was an amazing feeling, very formative, I would say.

[00:15:58] Joseph: I’d love to shift gears here a little bit, Ben, and talk about your shift away from that world into the world of, do I have this correct? Dental conferences and trade shows, which seems very different. Like how did you how did you make that pivot and what triggered you to make that pivot?

[00:16:12] Ben: I was just ready to move on at that point. I was with the previous company for three years. I think it was the non-stop nature of the events and maybe a little bit of the high stakes nature of the customer interactions burnt me out very quickly. You go into 15, 20 events, it was something that I needed to change the pace from. I had lots of great memories those first three years. I was able to go to some amazing, amazing sport events like the Super Bowl and the Masters and the Kentucky Derby that I would never be able to go to otherwise, and It was very thankful for those first three years. I just needed something else. And you know what better place to pivot from sports than into dentistry? A lot of parallels between the two. Right. So exactly. I wanted to take my event management experience and then parlay that and continue down the event management path. And there’s just an opportunity available with a dental products manufacturer. And I saw it and applied for the job and I got it. And so when we started, they had us a celebration of the 30th year of this dental product, this machine that they produced. And I mean, anybody who’s in dentistry knows what the product is, knows the company name. They’re the forefront of dental manufacturing in the world. And I had the opportunity to come in and work with the events and marketing team to help plan the 30th anniversary of this product.

[00:17:41] Joseph: Sounds like this is going well. A lot of transferable skills into this very different industry. I know that you would be there for a couple of years before you then returned back to your old former company, and you would go back as the director of product management. And I would be really interested to hear what prompted you to return to that world of sports, having stepped out of it. You mentioned before that you felt like it was time to do something different. This is an example of what we call sometimes a boomerang employee, where you leave a company or a sector and then you, you voluntarily choose to go back to it.

[00:18:14] Ben: So I received a call from the president at that point in time, asking if I’d be interested in exploring any type of option of coming back. And we talked about it for a little while. My wife and I, we had my daughter at this point in time. We understood that travel would pick back up again going back to this company and the stress levels probably were going to increase as well. But I went back and I was now the director of product management, and my main roles were managing the ticket inventory across all the different events that we sold into.

[00:18:47] Joseph: What do you remember about returning back to the company that you’d originally chosen to leave behind? I’m just thinking about, like the emotions of that and the psychology of going back to something you left behind. What was running through your head at the time? Do you remember?

[00:19:03] Ben: There was a lot of familiar faces that were still there, which was great, but there were also a lot of people that were new. It was odd at first, but once we got right into it, it was like never leaving. So it turned out to be a great experience.

[00:19:17] Joseph: Just to do a bit of a timeline check here. So you go back to this company in 2017 and while you’re working full time, you start to go through a bit of a side hustle transition. Do I have that correct? Can you take me through the evolution of your time there between, I guess, 2017 and 2020, what was happening on this side during this time? And I mentioned 2020. And so the pandemic is part of this.

[00:19:42] Ben: So 2018, two years into being back and I wanted to make a few floating shelves for our TV wall, I wanted to get a bigger TV, but my wife wanted to put shelves there instead. So she won and I looked up a DIY tutorial on how to make floating shelves. Found one on YouTube just using standard dimensional lumber from Home Depot and standard household tools at this point in time. In 2018, beginning of 2019, my son was going into daycare, so my daughter was in daycare. At this point in time, son is going into daycare and it was expensive to say the least. We were really trying to figure out ways to make some money on the side. My wife is a photographer in addition to her full time job, she would go out and she would have shoots on the weekends to bring in some side cash, and I wanted to do the same. So I thought that if I posted these shelves that I made on Etsy, I could figure out if there was a way to, you know, make an extra $1,000 a month on selling these shelves. How could I do it if I could sell an extra, you know, 10 to 20 shelves a month? Just working on my little two car garage. It would drastically make a huge difference in, you know, our quality of life. We’d be able to afford daycare a little bit better. And I posted a listing on Etsy. I posted a listing on Facebook Marketplace and got my first sale. It was actually on Facebook Marketplace where I got my first sale in middle of 2019.

[00:21:10] Joseph: Now, hang on just a second here, because you mentioned you decided to put up your own shelves. Now, if I needed to put up shelves, I would not have any idea where to start with that. And even if I looked it up on YouTube, I still probably wouldn’t be very good at it. Did you ever think about just buying shelves and sticking them up? Or like, what prompted you to decide that you wanted to do this by yourself and that you knew that you could do this?

[00:21:30] Ben: I mean, I’ve always had an interest in woodworking. I had shop class all four years in high school. There were a few things around the house that I had made with, you know, a very rudimentary circular saw. My father in law gave me a few random drills and made a few things, and it just kind of sparked something in me that, like I mentioned with events, the finished product, looking back and saying, I can’t believe I made that is a driving factor in wanting to do this.

[00:21:55] Joseph: While you get your first sale on Facebook Marketplace. And what were you thinking at this moment? Were you thinking, oh great, like, that’s kind of cool. I might make a couple more of these just for the fun of it. Or were you starting to think, you know what? Like maybe this is something that could turn into more than just a side business?

[00:22:11] Ben: Not at that point, no. I think my Etsy listing went live in mid December, January and February. It was increasing a little bit and maybe at this point 15 to 20 shelves a month. And I was happy I was reaching my goal of making that extra $1,000 a month, wasn’t spending too much time in the garage, maybe a few hours in the evenings and a few hours on the weekends, and was being successful with that, and then also juggling all the responsibilities from my full time position as well.

[00:22:41] Joseph: This is early 2020 and then the pandemic hits. And what happens to your full time work and what happens with the side business of making shelves?

[00:22:51] Ben: We had just completed the last event prior to lockdown, which was the NBA all Star game, so it would have been mid-February. Covid was starting to really ramp up in China. I believe the hospitality passes came printed from China. So we went through and we were disinfecting every single hospitality pass because at this point in time, no one knew how severe it was. We just saw all these news stories about what’s going on in China, and we’re worried about it coming to the US. The All-Star game passed and then we had the first case in the US. Obviously, all these sports events that I was managing the ticket assets for are being canceled, or they’re being played without any fans in attendance. At the same time, everybody was at home. Everybody was trying to figure out how they were going to improve their homes, beautify their offices, and sales just absolutely exploded your sales. Yeah, going from 15 to 20 shelves at a time to a month to a hundred at a month.

[00:23:57] Joseph: Wow. Okay.

[00:23:58] Ben: It was very overwhelming. But I just remember being outside one day, and this was probably late March with our neighbors. And all of us are in our little circles. We drew in the cul de sac where, okay, you say in your circle, we’ll stay in ours. We can all be sociable and we can all have our community still, but we just won’t get close to each other. I just remember hearing that. Cha ching, cha ching, cha ching.

[00:24:17] Joseph: Is this on Etsy?

[00:24:18] Ben: Yeah, this was Etsy. Yeah.

[00:24:20] Joseph: Okay. All right.

[00:24:21] Ben: And it was an amazing feeling. But at the same time, it was how am I going to manage my 9 to 5 and do this. And most of my 9 to 5 was spent in the garage making these shelves, trying to figure out how I was going to fill all these orders. And March and April were spent mostly in the garage. You know, I’d work and hop on conference calls. And also keep in mind that we had two little kids at home at the same time as well, because daycare was closed down.

[00:24:48] Joseph: So kids were closed, right?

[00:24:49] Ben: We had a two year old and a four year old at home, managing that in my 9 to 5 and taking care of the kids, so it was pretty overwhelming.

[00:25:04] Joseph: And what were you thinking at this moment, Ben? Were you thinking, I can keep going for a while like this or that? Something needs to give. How are you thinking about just your capacity?

[00:25:17] Ben: I realized I couldn’t do both. I couldn’t, you know, work 9 to 5 in the office and then come home and work from 6 to 11. This is something that I think is viable. I think it’s something that if it continues at the pace that it’s going, I can make a full time gig out of this. I could leave this highly stressful work environment where you’re responsible for millions of dollars of ticket assets and become my own boss. In June, I was teetering on the edge. There was someone that I worked with, and we would go back and forth and she would tell me that, you know, now is probably the time to pull the trigger if you’re going to pull the trigger, all these events are being canceled. You’ll be able to preserve all these relationships that you have. And I was still really hesitant because, you know, I was scared.

[00:26:08] Joseph: To quit your job.

[00:26:09] Ben: Well, not necessarily. So in July, I was actually laid off. So, okay, I made this analogy before where I was at the door of the airplane trying to decide whether to jump or not, and I got kicked out.

[00:26:22] Joseph: But you were on the verge of voluntarily resigning.

[00:26:26] Ben: Potentially I was.

[00:26:27] Joseph: Okay, I see. Then you get laid off in July of 2020 and the decision is made for you.

[00:26:35] Ben: It was a blessing in disguise. I mean, obviously, it’s never an easy thing. Being laid off, right. There’s a little bit of an ego aspect to it, you know? But at the same time, it was such a blessing to have that done for me.

[00:26:50] Joseph: Can you remember what was running through your head at that moment, when you found out that this decision had in some ways, been made for you?

[00:27:00] Ben: I was angry, I didn’t understand why. If it was based on the last three months of me not performing at the level I needed to be, then I wish I would have had that someone would have that conversation with me and I probably would have changed things. But the previous 14 months, I felt like I knocked it out of the park. I think it was overwhelming at the time and trying to figure out how we were going to make this work. But once I realized that it was such a blessing in disguise that that it happened and someone made that decision for me, I started to come to grips with the fortunate situation I found myself in, because not many people get laid off and have a solid backup plan like I had already in place.

[00:27:44] Joseph: Can you tell me a little bit about how things have been going for you since then with shelf expression?

[00:27:50] Ben: I kept on seeing ads on Facebook for a shelf bracket that just launched, and I think they launched in 2019, and they came on the market and I emailed them and I said, hey, I saw you guys on YouTube. I noticed that you don’t have any type of authorized providers. I was wondering if we could partner in some way. And this is love to shout them out. This is hover. Solutions brackets. They make the most incredible floating shelf brackets on the market. I’m not being biased, but maybe a little bit. So I partnered with them and I started creating hardwood floating shelves that could be coupled with this floating shelf bracket. And instead of pine, I’m now making shelves out of walnut and white oak and cherry, and all of a sudden my margins are a lot better. It was a way for me to take my company that I’d make 20 shelves and make 500 or $1000 a month to a company that I could make 100 shelves and make $15,000 a month. It’s blown up since then. So working with interior designers, contractors and becoming the solution for them for their floating shelf needs is has been pretty remarkable. And everything has been self-taught on my end too, as far as my business and the non shelf floating aspect of running the business.

[00:29:12] Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up, is that work that you’re doing right now, both as someone who is making the shelves, but also as someone who’s running your own business. And I would be, first of all, interested in just hearing about what’s been the most surprising thing about shifting from I’m just going to broadly label it a white collar job to a more doing stuff with your hands blue collar job. And I’m using those labels because I think they make sense to people. But how have you found that shift? I know you’re a business owner now at the same time, but just the shift from going to white collar office work to more blue collar, hands on work.

[00:29:49] Ben: Yeah, it’s been for me so, so rewarding building that. And there’s a huge chunk of my responsibility is I still have that white collar responsibility. Right. It’s website design.

[00:30:02] Joseph: Client management.

[00:30:03] Ben: Customer relationship management, my ad social media. So I haven’t completely given that away. But being proud of a finished product and and being proud of the process has been probably the greatest reward for making the transition from a quote unquote, white collar to blue collar job.

[00:30:21] Joseph: What have you learned about yourself making the transition from employee to business owner?

[00:30:26] Ben: I thought I would get the most enjoyment out of being in the shop and making the shelves and seeing the finished product, which I do, but I also get a huge, huge kick out of trying to figure out how to grow my business and how to scale, and how to make it become more of a a nationwide brand that everybody is familiar with. And coming up with partnerships and different marketing angles is something that I really enjoy.

[00:30:49] Joseph: If one of the components wasn’t there, it would kind of make the whole experience perhaps less complete or less rewarding. And I hear you that you’re saying like the business ownership is important, but you also like the hands on creation part of it. It really is both of those two things combined that is creating your professional life right now, which is really interesting. And you’re also borrowing and leveraging a lot of your past experiences in directly relevant ways right now. So it’s kind of interesting your trajectory here. Final question before we wrap up what you’re doing now, what is something that you wished you had known that you now know about making a radical career change.

[00:31:29] Ben: Instead of turning to agencies to find the perfect solution for my ads and for my website design. I wish I would have taken the time to really learn the intricacies behind each and did it myself. Took on more of a DIY approach. I spent a lot of money and did not see the returns that I was hoping for. So now whenever I go down any of these different paths, whether it’s website design or marketing, a lot of times it’s all self-taught and that’s been the process is before you spend money on something, understand it, because a lot of times these agencies will come in and they’ll start spouting out these acronyms and these different KPIs, and if you don’t understand what they’re talking about, then you’re just as lost as anybody. And you need to at least know the ins and outs before you hand something like that off to somebody else.

[00:32:18] Joseph: That’s really interesting, Ben. I’ve also found that to be the case myself as I’ve gone through, like I’ve been running my own business now for over a decade, and I did the same thing. Like I started off outsourcing quite a bit, including PR that was kind of one of the things where I outsourced to a PR agency, and these days I do most of that myself just because I feel like I’m in more control. And that’s part of the benefit and the upside of running your own business. I’d love to wrap up with what you are now focused on right now, which is both running your business and also making shelves. And I can’t let you go without asking you about shelves, because as someone who specializes in making shelves, what are a couple things that someone should look for in a high quality shelf, whether it’s a floating shelf or a freestanding shelf.

[00:33:03] Ben: Yeah, aside from making sure it’s made by shelf expression, of course. No, I would say if you’re looking for something that you want to last a long time, make sure it’s made out of solid hardwood. A lot of these shelves that you can purchase through Amazon or Wayfair are probably made out of MDF or particle board, and you know it when you see it. Just like anything that you find for cheap, making sure that you have a quality bracket, I think is another thing. As far as if you’re looking for a floating shelf, Something that is handmade by family business as well. I feel like that’s something that plays a part in it, because then you know that the people who are making it are pouring every ounce of sweat into making it perfect and making sure that it’s the quality that you that you deserve. So that’s the big thing is, you know, a lot of times when you see these manufacturers that are a little bit more mass produced, reviews are a great way to dig into what the quality is, is like. And that’s something that I really take pride in, is making sure that everything that I put out, I would want hanging on my grandma’s wall. And I think finding someone who has that level of care and detail is really important.

[00:34:11] Joseph: Very last question for you. Before we tell people where to find you, can you tell me a little bit more about what’s next for shelf expression? Where do you see this going, and how would you like your life and work to look in the months and years ahead, both personally and professionally?

[00:34:26] Ben: My three year plan is to eventually scale out where I can get into a bigger space. My wife really wants to park her car in the garage at some point in the next three years. And hiring people, having someone come in and like I said, I love making the shelves, but I love running the business more. So if I could bring people in who have the same level or close to the same level of attention to detail as I have, that would allow me to try to figure out how I can scale this. I recently launched a designer program. I’ve been reaching out to interior designers and home contractors across the country, inviting them to join. So aside from the retail customers really trying to focus on how to build my B2B customer base as well, having those repeat customers that I can rely on as a solid base is a goal of mine over the next year. Yeah, eventually getting out of the garage and having someone lend a hand so I can focus on the bigger picture is the ultimate goal of mine.

[00:35:18] Joseph: And if people want to learn more about you, or if they are looking for a good set of floating shelves, where can they go?

[00:35:25] Ben: So my website is self-expression net. Instagram handle is self-expression NC. Etsy store name is self-expression. Take a look and would be happy to answer any questions anybody has.

[00:35:37] Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Ben for telling us more about your life. As a former event manager and Director of Product management, your shift into woodworking, making shelves, and also your transition from employee to business owner. So best of luck with all of your work and moving into a bigger space as shelf expression continues to grow.

[00:35:54] Ben: Thank you very much, Joseph. I appreciate the time.

These days, there’s no shortage of distractions out there with endless amounts of content that’s just a tap away on your phone. As much as social platforms like LinkedIn are really handy for sharing and receiving professional updates, they’re also places that provide endless points of unnecessary, unproductive comparison. Not allowing external voices to sway you too much in your career is half the battle in finding work that’s right for you.

In this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast, electrical engineer turned artist Sangeetha Gopalakrishnan has had to find ways to quiet the influences around her so she can focus on pursuing a career that makes her truly happy. In our conversation, we’ll discuss paying attention to what your body’s telling you, following your intuition, and finding space to reflect. In the Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll discuss how I quiet career distractions.

During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of finding one way to have a quiet moment when you can be still and sort out your thoughts. I know life gets busy, and I know this isn’t easy to do, but you might be surprised by what clarity you might gain from the momentary pause.

Sangeetha Gopalakrishnan has had to find ways to quiet the influences around her so she can focus on pursuing a career that makes her truly happy. She spent nearly two decades as an electrical engineer in semiconductor chip design before deciding to make a big change. After growing up in India, she moved to the U.S. for graduate school in electrical engineering and built a solid career designing chips, managing teams, and leading projects.

In 2024, she left her job to become a full-time outdoor oil painter, hiking into remote places to paint landscapes using sustainable, non-toxic materials. She also leads a women’s hiking group with over 1000 members in Southern California, helping others find confidence and connection in the outdoors. Her story is about choosing purpose over predictability—and having the courage to start again.

Follow Sangeetha on Instagram and LinkedIn.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!

BrandYourself offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership.

[00:00:01] Joseph: Okay, Sangeetha. Well, thank you so much for getting up early over there in California to join me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

[00:00:10] Sangeetha: Thank you. It’s my pleasure.

[00:00:11] Joseph: I would love to start by hearing a little bit about what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life, so maybe we could start with that, and then we can go back in time and talk about your pivots along the way.

[00:00:23] Sangeetha: As you can see in my background, that speaks volumes about what I do now. I am an artist. I’m a fine artist. That means I do these finished oil paintings. I get inspiration from the outdoors. I usually go on my outdoor expeditions as just for recreation, and I paint outdoors, and I come back to my studio and I paint them large. People want to buy them. So I, I would call it like a business, but that’s not how I intended it to be. That’s my career now, an artist who works for myself.

[00:00:57] Joseph: I know you got into this a little bit. You talked about oil painting, but like how would you describe your style of art and your focus as an artist? What do you like to paint? Do you have a certain theme around your art?

[00:01:09] Sangeetha: I would call myself a plein air landscape artist. So plein air. I think it’s a French word that means outside. So the style is that you go outdoors, you paint what you see. So you’re actually capturing the emotions, the exact feelings that you get from looking at a scene, not from a photo, but an actual scene. And you paint it. And I do those on my hiking trips. I go on to these remote trails and capture them, and I usually capture them small, like small canvases, and I bring them home. And the ones that really speak to me, I paint them large. And these are done using oil paints. And there’s several ways that you can do it. People use like plenty of colors. People use certain kinds of paints. Paint, but I do all non-toxic paints in my oil painting process. I use only four colors and it’s done in an impressionistic style, so if you look at it, it’s not a photorealistic. It’s not what you see in a photo or even like exactly how you see in the landscape. But it’s an impression of what I see. So you can bring the painter’s emotions onto the canvas. So it’s a different style of paint making.

[00:02:25] Joseph: That’s amazing that you’re painting with just four colors, because when I see your background, this is an audio podcast. But when I look at your background and some of your paintings there, I would just assume you’re using the whole rainbow of colors out there. So that’s very interesting.

[00:02:37] Sangeetha: I love challenges, so just with four colors, as you know, with color theory, you can make the infinite spectrum of colors interesting.

[00:02:45] Joseph: I know that your art business is also a California green business, so it’s certified for your use of sustainable art making the non-toxic Toxic paints. Why is it that people don’t do that? Like, why don’t more artists follow the sustainable art making process? Because to me, that sounds like a great way of doing it.

[00:03:06] Sangeetha: It’s just the same reason as why people wouldn’t do sustainability in any part of their life, right? Like, you know, that’s how everyone has done. So you just go with the flow and you never question it because the masters have done it with all the chemicals. And so you think, oh, that’s the only way. That’s the way I’m supposed to do. But I’ve grown up because of where I grew up and my family values. I always was drawn to doing things in a green way, eco friendly way. So when I first started painting, I was shocked by the amount of chemicals these artists were using. I took some workshops and the teacher was like mixing up all these chemicals in this and she was saying, oh, let’s leave the windows open because these fumes are. We have to let the fumes out. I’m like, this is not making any sense. I started doing some research and doing my own experimentation, and I figured you can use less toxic paints. You can use zero chemicals in your studio or outdoors. And I started trying it and I’m like, yeah, none of my paintings need those things that everyone was using that intention of wanting to do. And most people are not aware of it. They’re not thinking about that.

[00:04:20] Joseph: You haven’t always been an artist. You were once an electrical engineer in the semiconductor chip industry. But before we get to that, Sangeetha, I would really love to start by hearing more about your early years and you alluded to this. Where you grew up, where did you grow up in India and what do you remember about your childhood there?

[00:04:40] Sangeetha: I grew up in South India in the state of Kerala. When I say Kerala, I’m describing it would be very different from the rest of India because Kerala is very tropical, closer to the equator and it’s very green, full of coconut trees. Humid. Very green. Lush state. We get a lot of six months of rain almost because of the monsoons. It’s called God’s own country because of people feel how blessed it is for how it looks and the abundant resources. So that’s where I grew up. Until I was 18, I lived in Kerala until I moved out to do engineering. What I remember is, yeah, my childhood. I grew up in a family which is very middle class. My parents were central government employees. They worked for the Department of Telecommunications. They were focused on giving education to their two daughters. Very blessed to have been born. My family, I was like a math science nerd. I just focused on solving math problems. Like, that was like, my thing.

[00:05:43] Joseph: Was that because you liked it, or was it because you loved it.

[00:05:47] Sangeetha: Came very natural and obsessed with math and physics and all that. We lived in an area which was so green and beautiful, and so we always played outdoors, even though I was drawn to books. All our playing time was outdoors. We had a huge backyard with like, all the tropical fruit trees, and we had a swimming pool built by our grandparents. We would swim there every day after school, and what I remember is being attached to the books and then go outside and play.

[00:06:18] Joseph: It sounds like a really lush and wonderful childhood, one that I think a lot of kids these days would love to have. Just the freedom to be out and playing and enjoying the outdoors. What made you decide to move to the United States.

[00:06:31] Sangeetha: That way of living? I grew out of that. I wanted to pursue engineering, like further studies. As I got admitted into engineering school, I had to move out of my town because the college was in a different town. So that was the first move out of the hometown. And then I got a job in the city of Bangalore as a junior engineer for Texas Instruments. That was the first company that hired me. So that was the reason I had to move out of Kerala. So I was still in India. As for my first job, but I always felt that I could do something more than just living in a small town as a kid. You’re like, oh, I want to see what the world is like. I want to see where this will take me. So I had those ambitions as just to see the world, and that’s what I say. I wouldn’t say that. Oh, I wanted to be a techie and rule the world. Nothing like that, but I was. I had that itch to be traveling and seeing the world, I would say.

[00:07:37] Joseph: So in this desire to explore the world, I know you would eventually move to the United States. Where did you land and what did you then dedicate your career to. During that chapter of your life.

[00:07:48] Sangeetha: I worked for two years as a junior design engineer at Texas Instruments in India. And that’s when I realized I want to do more specialization in electrical engineering. So I applied for master’s degree to the universities in the US, and I got into two of them. One was UC San Diego and one is Columbia in New York. So for better weather reasons, we decided to pick San Diego.

[00:08:12] Joseph: La Jolla, nice spot.

[00:08:13] Sangeetha: Yeah, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. You can study in a college right next to the beach. And yeah, so that’s where I ended up.

[00:08:20] Joseph: That’s so funny. I actually almost went to UC San Diego. I visited San Diego when I was a high school student. I loved it, I loved La Jolla, and just like you, I thought, how cool would it be? And I was living in Missouri at the time. So like the idea of living next to the beach and that being college like that just seemed so incredible to me. I ended up going to northwestern, which is a great school, but like the weather is just really tough.

[00:08:43] Sangeetha: That is a great school.

[00:08:45] Joseph: Yeah, it is also quite popular with aspiring engineers. Okay, so you’re in Southern California and then you would eventually move into an area that I know virtually nothing about, which is RF mixed signal IC design. Do I have that correct? Could you explain exactly what that is? Like radio frequency design and what you were working on?

[00:09:06] Sangeetha: That was my specialization for my master’s degree too. So RF is radio frequency. It is the core of every wireless communication that we have today. So we need radio waves to carry the transmission of data from, let’s say a cell you call someone. It’s the radio waves that are carrying the information from one phone to the other, or from a cell phone tower to your phone, or from a Wi-Fi router to your device. So this specialization that I did was designing circuits that actually Communicate to another device through radio waves. I would call it like the most in-demand technology right now in semiconductors, because we are going wireless more and more. We’re getting rid of wires. So you you need more chips that do this. So this specialization is actually for designing circuits which are called RF circuits or RF mixed signal circuits. And that was my specialization. And just to explain what mixed signal is, everything in the core of your device is done in digital. Like there’s ones and zeros. But then as you come closer to the real world you have to make them analog. Yeah, I can keep going on and on about the details of it, but I would bore people.

[00:10:27] Joseph: I think that gives us gives us a good high level overview. So mixed signal design and circuit design. Hugely important to modern day technology and communication. You were doing this for? Do I have it right? Like 15 years at Max Lanier.

[00:10:44] Sangeetha: That’s right.

[00:10:45] Joseph: How was that for you? How were you enjoying it? What do you remember about, like, your level of enjoyment of doing this kind of highly specialized technical work?

[00:10:54] Sangeetha: I graduated right at recession in 2009, and it was really hard to find a job. But then I landed this job, luckily, and the company was still a startup, it had not gone IPO. It worked like a startup. I was the first woman engineer to be hired and they worked like 12 hours. 14. I don’t even remember how many hours everyone worked. It was a very overwhelming environment when I joined, I remember, but very challenging and also exciting for a new grad because you’re learning all these things. It’s all these engineers with PhDs and years of experience, and they’re inventing things, and they’re designing these complex things and being the only woman engineer the culture, it’s very different. Like when you’re in a new environment, suddenly you’re like, oh, you have to figure all this out and this tough environment. It was a mixed feeling because you had to work really hard to establish yourself and prove that, hey, I can make it here too. So it did take some time. So the initial years were harder. I remember like working really crazy hours. It really, really, like, took a toll on my health. But then there was that excitement of that’ll keep you working because you’re so into it and you have these joys of like, oh, I designed the circuit and it’s working and drag you into it. And you’re like, oh, I didn’t realize all these consequences of it. Yeah. So I would say the initial years were tough, but also exciting.

[00:12:28] Joseph: You mentioned there the consequences of working in these intense environments. What do you mean by the consequences?

[00:12:35] Sangeetha: Within a year I had really bad health problems, like I was diagnosed with herniated disc from sitting for long hours without moving. My spine had like compressed and it was like I had like a disc flipped. I mean, that’s like the most common way of saying it. And I was only 26 years old. I had sciatica, which is like the shooting pain on my leg that comes from this pinched nerve because the disc is touching it. I had not imagined that my health would deteriorate so quickly because of these long hours of working. So that, I would say, was the biggest thing I had not imagined would happen. And the scariest thing. So that caused me to take like some break from work, and I had to take like a six weeks or eight weeks disability leave from work and take a break.

[00:13:28] Joseph: Your back is out of commission. You’re off work. Were you thinking, okay, once I get better, I’m going to get back into this. Maybe I’ll, I don’t know, work at a standing desk or I’m going to adjust my work style or my work habits. Were you thinking at that moment that this could still work out, or were you thinking, hey, this is something that I need to really reassess, that this long term is not going to be great for me. Like what was running through your head at the time?

[00:13:52] Sangeetha: The goal was just to get back. I was flying. I was in my 20s and oh, I was like, oh, I have to get back to this as soon as possible and work harder. That was like the initial initial thing. I did get standing desk. I got like changes to the ergonomics were all taken care of. But I remember the whole time I was in bed, I couldn’t move. I had to be laying flat on the bed. The moment I get up, I, you know, it was so painful. But I remember at that age the thought was just to get back and get better and just go at it. But that was while I was in bed. But then once I started going back to work, I felt that something switched in me. I still remember the nagging thought that, is this really what I want to do? Is this what how I want to spend my, you know, the rest of my career? And I remember those thoughts coming, but then I’m like, this is what everybody’s doing. I’m no different. And I hear jokingly from other engineers that, oh yeah, once you’re in RF circuit design, back pain is your best friend. I’m like, really? Is that. Yeah. So that’s like a running joke in the company. And yeah, I had this unsettling thought that, oh my God, is this what I want to do? But I had no idea what else I would do. I’m stuck with this career where this is what I want to do, but the way it’s done is not right at all.

[00:15:23] Joseph: You were enjoying the actual nature of electrical engineering work, but the structure of that work and the demands it put on your body and the work hours and the ways of working that wasn’t quite sitting well with you. I know when we first connected. One thing that you had written to me, which really struck me and I’m just going to read this is you wrote deep down, I’d known for years that I wanted to do something more meaningful and soulful than a desk job. I read that, and I was just thinking, what do you think was stopping you from making that move at that point in time?

[00:15:58] Sangeetha: To answer that question, I’ll have to tell you, like, one of the things that the doctor prescribed was being active. After I had this injury, because I was not an active person at all, I was just a, you know, like anyone else in their 20s, just focused on work. And the prescription was to be active outside, go to a park and walk for or take breaks every 30 minutes and walk. And that was the first time I really used the outdoors as a recreational thing. And although I grew up outside, it was like a way of living. It was never. Different from life. But here, to be outdoors, you had to make an intentional effort to be outdoors. And so I started doing those, and that’s when I had like more reflections on my life, and I remember. The more and more I spent outdoors, I was getting time to think about this kind of life. And. That’s the power of nature, I believe, is that it really makes you present and really evaluate. Help you evaluate what’s truly valuable. And the constant thought was exactly what I wrote there. Is this the most soulful thing I want to do? And every time my manager say, oh, in ten years, I see you. The head of the department. And I’m telling you, I wanted to throw up when he said that it was making me sick. Like I could feel that my soul. That’s not what it wanted. Although I loved engineering and like. You explained the way it’s conducted and structured and in the corporate world, I feel it’s so wrong. It’s just like people are used as this machines to churn out efficient things, to make the next best phone or the next best TV, or I did not want to sacrifice my health for that. So that’s what I actually wrote.

[00:17:49] Joseph: Did you ever think about just changing companies? Did that seem like that could be a solution or or were you feeling like something more radical needs to happen here to my career?

[00:17:59] Sangeetha: If anyone knows anyone working in IT world or the industries, they’re all the same. I have a lot of friends in Silicon Valley, you know, all across the world who who work in different companies. The story is the same. I knew changing companies is not the way, and I did not know what else. I did not know any other skills, anything else. I just decided to, like, stick on and create my own way of working. Like after years, you know, you become the senior person and you have a little more command over your team and so you can set boundaries. That’s the best I realized I could do. Like, hey, I’m coming in at nine, I’m leaving at five. I’m not available after that, I don’t care. So that’s what I decided to do, not change companies. But in the place that I work, let’s see how we can make it work.

[00:18:51] Joseph: How did that mitigation strategy work out for you over the years? Did that? Did that help or not?

[00:18:58] Sangeetha: It worked for a while, but then you end up looking like that person who is not a team player, right? Because you will be the only person who’s setting boundaries. And when I became a manager, I was managing teams. And it does not look right for as a manager to be the person who sets the boundaries. But then I expect, you know, my team members to work these hours because there are these deadlines to be met. So it did not work. Well.

[00:19:29] Joseph: How did you get yourself out of this? Because it sounds like there’s a bit of a conundrum here, which I think many people face when they are at this cusp of making a change, is I’m not happy with my current work situation. At the same time, it’s quite esteemed. I can probably think of a lot of people who would want my position. So I don’t necessarily want to just leave it behind, but at the same time, it’s wreaking havoc on my health. I can’t seem to change the system. What do you do then?

[00:19:57] Sangeetha: Nothing I did was planned. I had this excel sheet I had built when I said, when can I retire? Just make the maximum money out of this. Just retire.

[00:20:07] Joseph: Put your time in and. Yeah, exactly as much as you can.

[00:20:10] Sangeetha: I created a spreadsheet, like where, you know, if you know how compound interest works, you can create all the equations to decide. What can you get out of this? I felt that’s the most best part of this corporate world is that you can just make the money and get out as soon as possible. So that’s how my brain started working. And then I said, when can I retire? My spreadsheet would say the age I can do it. So I said, by 40 I can be comfortable and let’s get out. So that’s what I you know, I was following my spreadsheet. But even then, like 40 is such a young age to be retiring and not doing anything. And even until the last few years, I had no idea what else I would do. So that’s when Covid hit, which, you know, transformed everyone’s life.

[00:20:55] Joseph: Let’s talk about that transition because it sounds like Covid hit. And this is obviously a huge event that affected everybody. Their way of working, their way of thinking, their prioritization. And I would love to hear what impact it had on you and how you thought about your relationship with work at this point.

[00:21:11] Sangeetha: It gave me like, all the freedom to work flexibly, and that was great. And then I think 2020 is when I discovered that I had all these, like, pains lying around in my house and I decided, oh, okay, let me just try doing some doodling painting in my house. And, you know, somebody, one of my friends probably left them there. I found them and I decided to play with them, and I thought, oh, this is looking nice. This is fun. And then I sent to some friends and they were like, wow, it’s beautiful. And then I got into it so much that I was painting on every book cover in my house. A hard bound book cover I found I was painting on top of it, made them like these beautiful book covers, and I ran out of books to paint on. I was painting on coasters. I was so close to painting my walls. So this I became that kid again who was obsessed with something. So that was 2020 and I didn’t think much of it. Okay, it’s something I liked. And then a couple of years past 2022 is when I was taking on this big project at work. It was like the biggest chip that I had led. I was managing teams and it was such a very stressful time and I decided to again turn to. I remember that let me just try this and see if maybe it will be a stress buster. And I was painting every day. I would come home at like 6 p.m., I would start painting at 8 p.m., I would paint into like midnight. Then I would look at my watch and I would be like, oh, I have a meeting at six in the morning or seven in the morning to go to bed. But what I remember is those hours of painting were like the most joyful. That was the start of what I remember as something that really caught my attention and drew me into it.

[00:23:04] Joseph: That’s really interesting. It sounds like you had this. What started off as a side interest became a side hobby. Eventually people really liked this kind of work. And you then face, I suppose I’m kind of reading between the lines here, a bit of a decision of, well, how much time should I invest into this? It sounds like it was conflicting with your day job a little bit in terms of just the hours of the day required. And so what was running through your head about how to balance the two?

[00:23:28] Sangeetha: Actually, I had no thoughts like that. I was still just thinking, hey, it’s just a way for me to decompress. Even at that time, 2022 is I seriously had this itch to leave my job. It was very clear to me I had to leave it, but the whole message I could hear from my intuition, if I may say, is just stay. You will know the path when the time is right. And I was not even thinking of painting as something I wanted to do. And I was looking at, oh, maybe a part time job, maybe a consulting job. I was still thinking of engineering as something I want to keep trying, but in a different way. Maybe a medical industry which needs some electronic, you know, design where it won’t be as demanding as semiconductor industry. All these thoughts are still going on in 2022. Do. What happened is 2024 came and again, people may not believe when I say this. I’m someone who goes with a lot of intuition and it really drives my decisions. It’s a very strong knowing. 2024. Spring and summer. That’s when I realized this is what I want to do. It was like a very clear knowing. I had been painting outdoors too, because outdoors had become like a such a strong thing in my life. After my back injury, I was painting outdoors a lot. I would carry my painting gear. It became such a strong calling for me, and it became clear in 2024 that this is what I want to do. This is fitting so well in what I had been looking for. I can be outdoors, I can paint. It’s still like a challenging, I can solve problems in painting and I wasn’t missing my engineering thing at all. By that time when I thought about it, this is the time I’m going to make the switch and my spreadsheet said, yes, you’re ready to make the switch. So I would say it was almost like an instantaneous decision.

[00:25:21] Joseph: That’s interesting. The intuition piece. And I know you’ve mentioned spreadsheets here a few times. You can, I guess, do the math on like when you can retire, when you’re financially comfortable. But at the same time, part of it is just feeling like, hey, now is the right time to make the move. And it’s hard to explain in concrete terms the exact criteria that got cleared to lead you to the decision. Were there times in your career when you didn’t listen to your intuition, and how did you, I guess, shift your mindset around trusting your intuition more.

[00:25:52] Sangeetha: I feel it’s actually something that my engineering career has taught me to like a lot of times as a manager or if you’re a project lead, I believe one of the strongest points of a good leader is making those decisions, which nobody else can. You have to make those decisions quick and make it very simple for people to understand. And a lot of those moments I’ve been able to use this intuitive might sound too woo woo for a lot of people, but you cannot use just logic. You have to look at the big picture and you’ll really see that, hey, okay, this is the right thing that’s zooming out and looking at things and be able to make that right decision. That’s a skill that I had developed over the years by managing teams and leading projects. So I feel like that got stronger and stronger, that skill, it’s a skill that you have to keep to sing. You have to use that part of yourself.

[00:26:49] Joseph: Just to kind of shift gears here a little bit and talk about your current chapter. Now, Sangeeta, you are now a fine art entrepreneur, now self-employed. I am really curious to hear about how you thought about how to create a business around your art because it sounds like, okay, I now know I want to do this. How do I turn this into my actual professional life and my main, I guess, source of income? What was your thinking behind turning this idea into something a little bit more concrete?

[00:27:25] Sangeetha: It wasn’t easy. I have no background in business. My parents are no business people. Nobody in my family has run a business. So it was really like jumping out of an airplane and building a parachute. That’s how I feel it. Like, I have no idea. No art godfathers, nothing. So I had to do some homework and I actually enrolled in an actually a coaching program for that, an art marketing coaching program, which actually really helped because I quickly realized that just painting you cannot be you’re not going to be discovered, like, you know, someone will just come and say, oh, wow, your paintings are great. Let’s, you know, make you famous, right? That’s the dream everyone has. But real world does not exist. So you actually need some marketing sales that coaches need to be in. So I did enroll in a coaching program, which actually really helped.

[00:28:15] Joseph: I know that you started this officially, I suppose, at the beginning of 2025. We’re recording this in the back half of 2025. How are things going for you now as an independent artist?

[00:28:26] Sangeetha: I’m always forgetting my past engineering life because this is so flexible. It gives me so much freedom to be outdoors, be creative, and just to express myself and what inspires me. I can capture it on canvas, create these beautiful things, and also seeing that people actually want to spend their money to buy them. That’s like a big validation of how much it touches you. Yeah, if you give something for free and they like it, that’s different. But someone to spend their hard earned money to buy something that you created. Did to me more than making money, that knowing is actually quite valuable.

[00:29:11] Joseph: Now, before we talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, I do have to ask you a ruthlessly practical question. And it does relate to money, because I know you mentioned salary there, and I don’t know what your financial situation was when you left your full time work. But financially, how are you feeling right now with the independent artwork? And also a related question to that is you’d mentioned before, you’d kind of thought, okay, I’m going to work really hard. I guess I’m going to build up a lot of savings. Was there some sort of financial cushion that helped you feel more comfortable making this leap? How did finances enter into your decision to do this?

[00:29:53] Sangeetha: One of the things when I look back, the blessing was that I had this back issue early on in my career and I could prepare myself for this from the beginning. Learning about investments and savings at a very early part of my career was very crucial in my decision making, I would say, because that really helped me to build this cushion. Now I can do this. Not like a 21 year old who’s starting an art career, which would be very hard because art, it’s not predictable. When do you get your next income? It’s not like getting a salary every two weeks or every month for that. I feel like my previous career really helped me create that. In my case, it’s been crucial in making it very, very comfortable and I can do it at my own terms. I don’t have to stress about where my next paycheck comes.

[00:30:45] Joseph: It’s not something that I go into in tremendous detail on this podcast. We tend to talk about like the emotions and the dynamics of a career change, but there is this financial component to it. What you’re touching on here is quite important because if you can build that financial cushion or at least a level of savings that makes you feel comfortable taking a risk. I feel like it results in you maybe not being as desperate to, yes, sell that piece of art, or sell your service, or get that customer or whatever your industry might be. And I think that instills confidence in your clients and the people around you.

[00:31:20] Sangeetha: It’ll make a big difference in the way that you do your business, because now you’re more confident, you’re not scared to take risks, and you can invest more in your business. So for me, that was very crucial. Although even though I felt ready for my next phase because of my finances, I did not know what to do. That was my problem.

[00:31:40] Joseph: Well, I’d love to wrap up here, Sangeeta, with just a few of the things that you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey, and I’d love to go back to some of the ideas that you shared with me in your first message that you sent to me about being on the show, and I’d love to just kind of in like a lightning round, go through four things here. The first is just the influence of people around you. And one thing you mentioned to me was this idea of not discussing your career change ambitions with every single person out there. And I know that some of the, I guess, career advice gurus out there are, they’ll say, hey, you should be sharing your plans with everybody, because the more people know about what you want to do, the more people are out there who can keep their eyes and ears open for you. And I would just be really interested to hear why you think it’s not always a good idea to share your plans with other people.

[00:32:32] Sangeetha: Everyone’s decisions are driven by their own life experiences and what they had seen, and what they’re scared of, or what they’re excited about. So anytime you say your plan, they might have opinions about it and they might have different thoughts about it. I’ve noticed that the things that I’ve decided to do, they are so different from what all my friends or family would do normally, and if I had followed their opinions on if I take them to heart, or if they say that’s the better idea, I wouldn’t be where I am today. In any decision I’ve done in my life, I wouldn’t be here. What I have seen results is that go with your intuition. If your intuition is strong. But if you don’t have that skill developed yet, like you have that strong knowing, yes, you might be the person who needs help to make decisions, then this advice is not for that kind of people. But if you have like really strong knowing about what you really want to do, if you know for sure, don’t care about what other people have to say or offer, you will figure out a way. Because that drive to do things, it’ll create the path to get to where you want to be.

[00:33:46] Joseph: My second question was actually related to that topic of being a little bit more focused on what you want versus what you think other people want, or what they think you should do with your career. Do you have any tips or perspectives on what somebody can do to sort of stave off that pressure they might be feeling from other people’s opinions or input on what they should do?

[00:34:10] Sangeetha: So this comes from my cultural upbringing in India, which is a very, very non-independent in the sense you go with what everybody else wants. You know, you go as a society, you you go with the flow. You do it for the benefit of everybody, right? So that’s how that culture works. And a lot of cultures in the world work. And I had been trying to get out of that kind of mindset all my life, to be able to do things that actually what the individual wants is also important. You know, you need a good balance. So I had to consciously make that decision, hey, is this what really what I want to do? Or am I doing it because everybody else is doing so? That was like a conscious decisions I had to make. And I would say I’ve been successful in doing that.

[00:34:58] Joseph: Is there anything that you feel can be helpful to the people who maybe, I don’t know, maybe they feel compelled to listen to what their parents once told them they should do, or what their peer group is saying they should do. Or like you mentioned earlier, like where your manager sees you being in ten years. Like, is there a way to kind of insulate yourself from the noise around you?

[00:35:18] Sangeetha: Reflecting when you’re by yourself helps quite a bit. Take your space like maybe go outdoors. Give yourself space to reflect. Is this really want to do again? Goes back to like listening to yourself. That’s what I always tell my friends. Also just develop that skill more and more. Like what is it that you really want? And for that you have to get away from the noise. Like, you cannot be with like ten people in a group and just listen to their advice as you really have to go back and really listen to what you want.

[00:35:53] Joseph: Last couple of questions for you. And then I want to finish up by talking about something I know that’s quite important to you. I’d love to hear your perspectives on risk taking, especially if there’s somebody out there listening to this. And and maybe they are kind of like me, just kind of risk averse. And that might be stopping them from taking a leap themselves. How do you think about risk and how to manage risk taking in one’s career?

[00:36:19] Sangeetha: Risk is definitely subjective. It depends on how much you think you will fail in this, compared to how much you think you would succeed. So for me, I was like a not a risk taker at all. Again, go with what everybody does, the safe thing. But then the way that I did it was taking small risks, which are not like it’s not going to kill you or kill your career or, you know, taking those small steps and get the confidence like you can do it. Like you can make it work, or even showing to the rest of the world that, hey, you thought this was a risk, but I succeeded. Look, I did this. A lot of my friends were engineers. And now seeing that, oh, this is a risk we can take to, you know, changing things and the world is not going to end because you do it. I would say start with small things that you can get confidence in instead of. You don’t have to like jump off a plane and prove that. But get the confidence and you can do bigger things.

[00:37:20] Joseph: And finally, going from engineering to art is quite a leap if you think about it. Like if I think about what could be more opposite, you’re going from kind of technical, very left brained, logical, non-risk loving worlds to a little bit more of a right brained, creative, maybe more intuitive space. And I’m just curious, like, what have you learned about yourself as you’ve gone on this career change journey?

[00:37:46] Sangeetha: I do have a correction to make there. I don’t know why people think engineering is a left brained, analytical, logical. I have to tell you, it’s the most creative field ever. Because what engineers do are you’re solving problems and you have to creatively solve problems. I cannot imagine what is the logical part of it, but people think it is. It’s the most creative job that exists. To solve a problem, you need to be creative, which is exactly what I’m doing as an artist. It’s just I’m using different tools. It’s a different set of problems that I’m solving. What I am realizing is that ultimately, I’m a creative person who likes to solve problems and enjoy challenges, and I’m kind of done with solving these problems. Now I want to solve these problems and I’m enjoying these tools, so that’s the way I look at it.

[00:38:39] Joseph: That’s good to know. It is interesting. It’s really useful to be able to find those unifying factors between what might, on the surface seem like a radical change. But actually what you’re saying is, hey, there’s actually a lot of common space here that may not be obvious to maybe the outsider, but actually I’m just taking my skills and my experiences and just reapplying them in a different context. And what have you learned about yourself along the way of maybe not this radical career change journey, but maybe the career evolution that you’ve gone through?

[00:39:06] Sangeetha: Well, one of the interesting things I’ve learned is that I still have that childlike obsession with learning something new, and I love that even as a kid, like I was saying, I was obsessed with solving math problems. And I realized that I still have that childlike obsession and that spark to learn something new, to get really into it and just be lost in it for hours. I do that, and I love that people lose that as once you become, you know, 30s, 40s. I’m 42 and I, I’m so excited that I can still do it at this age. And I want to have it when I’m 90 or 95, however long I live, and that’s what I’m excited about.

[00:39:46] Joseph: I would love to wrap up with something I know is important to you outside of art and outside of your now day job, your work, and speaking about being lost in something for hours. I know that you’re passionate about being in the outdoors, and I’d love to wrap up by just hearing a little bit more about the Women’s Outdoors group that you founded in 2019.

[00:40:06] Sangeetha: Again, outdoors was again a consequence of my health problems. I’m most grateful for right now. And you know, in America, outdoors are amazing. Like you have this so much land you can explore. The wilderness is like true wilderness. You get in there and you’re just incredible. And so I had been exploring for years, and in 2019, I felt that I was at this stage in my life where I can offer that path to someone else, because I had been shown the path of the outdoors through some other people who led the way. And I felt, I want to create this for other women who have not been able to explore the outdoors. So I started this group with a friend. Then I started inviting friends. It grew slowly and I organized hikes. We organized camping trips, backpacking trips. We go for days. We just came back from a ten day backpacking trip in Lake Tahoe with 120 something miles. We did anything that you can think outdoors. We try to organize and even beginner level events and invite people, and they can be members and they can go on these trips with me and it’s all free, like a volunteer thing. I love to do because I’m very, very passionate about it, because outdoors was like a place of healing for me and a place of joy for me. And I want to offer that to more people. So that was the goal of it, and it’s still going strong. Yeah, we’re doing another event next Saturday, so.

[00:41:40] Joseph: I think you’ve grown the community to over 1000 members now. So yeah, that’s really great work. If people want to learn more about you, or check out your beautiful artwork, or even learn more about this women’s outdoors group, where can they go?

[00:41:53] Sangeetha: My website is my first name, Sangeeta. Com so that’s my art website and they can contact me through that. So I usually my outdoors group, I kind of keep it private because I want to send it to people who actually contact me and say, hey, I’m interested in joining so people can contact me through my website. It’s kind of a curated group where we want to really make sure they’re the right fit, and but they can contact me and I will invite them to join the group. So that’s definitely the way to do it. And I’m on Instagram. My Instagram handle is Sangeeta G artist. I do post all my art and all my next events and all of that will be there.

[00:42:36] Joseph: Well, we’ll include those links in the show notes, and I would encourage people to check out your artwork and to follow you on Instagram. Thank you so much for telling us more about your former life as an electrical engineer, your transition into being an artist, the work you’re doing to bring like minded women together, to embrace the outdoors, and also just reminding us of how important it is to trust your intuition. So best of luck with all your endeavors. Sangita, and thank you so much for joining me here today.

[00:43:02] Sangeetha: Thank you. I mean, it was such a pleasure. I had been telling everybody I met that this podcast is really great, and I know a lot of people who want to make this transition. And I’ve been sending it to all my friends and family who’ve been thinking, and it’s great to have one place where you can hear so many people have done it, and there are lessons and learnings and it’s such a great thing that you’re doing, so I really appreciate it. Thank you for the opportunity. I love talking to you.

[00:43:31] Joseph: Well, that’s great to hear. Thank you.

Have you ever thought about changing your work setup due to a change in your life circumstances, time constraints, or just stress? At some point in your career, you may face a moment of reckoning, when you realize you can’t continue to sustain your current career, and something has to give. But how do you choose whether to hang on to honor the investments you’ve made or let go to make room for something else?

On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 107, Matt Oliver, founder of Oliver Co, describes his career journey to go from designer to company founder and eventual design consultant for Native Design. We talk about how to pace yourself when making a transition, balancing your side projects with your day job, and the importance of outsourcing and delegating tasks if you want to open up new opportunities in you career.

During this episode’s Mental Fuel segment, I talked about the importance of releasing your grip on one aspect of your work to make room for another priority. My challenge to you is to decide on one thing you want more of in your career right now. Then, identify something you could spend less time on so you can make room for that.

00:00:00 Overview

Matt Oliver is a design strategist with a background in product design who’s had to wrestle with this question himself. Matt’s career spans both consultancy and entrepreneurship. He started out designing in-house before moving to a design consultancy, working with global brands like Zenith and TAG Heuer. He later founded Oliver Co, a sustainable accessories brand that became B Corp certified, won international awards, and partnered with Virgin Atlantic. His experience has given him a strong blend of creative thinking and commercial awareness. And today, Matt helps businesses use design as a tool for innovation and growth.

Learn more about Matt Oliver and Native Design.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!

Hosting.com is the web host provider I use and trust for my websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/hosting to host your website for as little as a couple of bucks a month.

[00:03:22] Okay, Matt. Well, thank you so much for taking time out of your busy day to join me here on the Career Relaunch Podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

[00:03:30] Matt: Great to be here. Thank you very much for having me.

[00:03:32] Joseph: All right. So we’re going to talk about a lot of different things today. The steps you took to launch all of your Co, some of the challenges you’ve faced along the way, and also why you’ve recently decided to return to full time employment. But before we get to all that, could you just kick us off by telling me a little bit about what you’ve been focused on in your professional and personal life lately?

[00:03:54] Matt: My current role is at a company called Native Design, so we’re a design and innovation consultancy doing physical industrial design and engineering. So the physical design of products and also digital design as well. So that’s things like user experience and user interface software development. My title is Design Strategy Manager. So really what I’m doing is I’m connecting potential clients with the different disciplines here at Native. So kind of understanding their challenges and then connecting them with the different capabilities that we have here to try and solve those challenges. So that’s what I’m doing on my on my day to day here. So a lot of outreach I guess quite similar to a business development role, a lot of outreach networking, a lot of going to events. Very interesting because I’m working across various different sectors. So one minute I could be in the life science sector. So we do a lot in genome sequencing and that kind of thing. And then the next minute I’ll be an automotive conference. So very different worlds in my personal life. Much more stable in that I’ve moved out of London, moved to a place called Guildford, which is about an hour west of London. Bought a house, got a dog, married a kid on the way, like, okay. Yeah. So that’s in November. Lots going on. Very interesting time.

[00:05:19] Joseph: Sounds like you’ve got a lot going on personally. And things are going to change radically for you later this year. And so I do want to talk about your career in design, and I’d say that you’re probably a less typical guest than the ones we typically have on the show, because a lot of times we’ve got people here, Matt, who have kind of shifted out of one industry into another industry. I mean, in your case, you’ve spent, I guess, a good chunk of your career in some regard, always involved with design. Now, I know you haven’t always been at Native Design. I was hoping we could start by going all the way back in time. And first of all, just revisiting how you got interested in design in the first place at the very start of your career. And then we can move forward from there.

[00:06:08] Matt: In primary school. Genuinely. Wow. There was a project, probably. I think I must have been about nine. And it was to design the front of the cereal packet. I was the kid that would always read the cereal packets in the morning. I just was fascinated by the design and what was going on with those. I guess I wouldn’t have known. I was fascinated with the design. I was just intrigued with all the characters. And so when this project came along and I loved it, and I got really involved with it, and I remember showing my parents and my dad said, oh, you should be a graphic designer. And he said, oh, our family, friends, he’s in graphic design. You should speak to him. But, you know, I was only nine and I saw the work that that he was doing. And I found I found that really interesting even at that age. And so from that point on, I kind of had it in my head. I was like, well, I’m going to be a designer. And really, I didn’t deviate at all. All the way through secondary school. I did design technology. Absolutely loved it. Yeah, all the way through to the sixth form where they’re not deciding what career wants to go into. I guess I slightly deviated in that my school was pushing me more towards the, I guess, a more academic job. So they wanted it ended up being naval architecture actually was what they suggested I did. I was doing physics and maths and they said, oh, you should be doing that. I think they were not pushing us towards design and creative industries as a school, which is a shame really, but they were quite academic focused, kind of just before we were starting to look at universities, I was like, no, I don’t want to do that. I want to go into design. I then studied product design at Loughborough, which is kind of a blend of industrial design with the more kind of engineering side, and that’s how I got into it.

[00:07:53] Joseph: This might sound like a strange question, Matt, but it sounds like you were always really interested in design. Did you feel like you were good at design? Like, did you feel like you had some potential to be a good designer, or was that not really part of the thought process, or did that not feed into your decision to continue to pursue it.

[00:08:13] Matt: Within my school? It’s quite a small school. I felt like I was top of the class for design. Then obviously then when you go to university, it’s a bit of a wake up call as to whether or not I am a good designer or not. There were some incredibly talented designers there, and I think I probably went into the university more confident. I think probably from the fact that I knew from a very young age I wanted to do it, and I thought I’d be more ahead than I was. And you learned what real design was, and I was good at sketching and the sort of artistic side of it. But actually what design is, you know, the more kind of problem-solving side of it. I perhaps wasn’t as strong. I guess I was always confident until I got to university, then realized, okay, I’m not quite as good as I thought I was.

[00:08:59] Joseph: I think that happens to all of us. It’s sort of like you go from a big fish in a small pond, and then you realize the world is a very, very large ocean. It’s quite a humbling experience to go to college or university, and you start to see all the talent out there. So what was your first role in design and how did you get involved professionally in the world of design? I recall that your dad was a business owner. Did that have any influence on the direction you took?

[00:09:26] Matt: Yes. So I didn’t go down the naval architecture route, but the reason naval architecture was on the agenda at the time when I was looking at universities was that my family are from that world. So my dad did interior fit outs of cruise ships. That was his business. Born in Southampton, very naval, part of the world, growing Grown up around ships and boats, and I thought I was going to be heading into. And even as a designer, I thought maybe I could go into exterior boat design. Not quite the extent of a naval architect, but exterior boat design. And so even at university, I was thinking that somewhere I could go. I worked at a company called Sunseeker during my placement year, and in a way, I realised then that maybe it wasn’t the world I wanted to get into and actually more kind of product design as we know it. More sort of consumer products was perhaps more suitable to where my skill sets were. And actually it was a recruiter that told me that. And that kind of led me to my first job, which was in watch design.

[00:10:32] Joseph: I know you would go to Larsen Jennings, which is a well known watch brand, and I would be interested to hear how you made that pivot from focusing on, I guess, boat design at Sunseeker to then working for a watch brand, because this is something that comes up with a lot of people, is I like what I’m doing. I might be in the wrong industry. I want to switch industries. So I’d be curious how you made that pivot.

[00:10:54] Matt: I guess it didn’t feel like much of a pivot in that everything we learned at university was much better suited to Lance and Jennings than the work that they were doing. The course and what I studied for four years wasn’t actually really that suited to boat design at all. It made a lot more sense. At least in Jennings, it was a lot easier. I probably had I gone into boat design, I probably would have struggled, to be honest.

[00:11:17] Joseph: So you just applied directly to the company and landed the role?

[00:11:21] Matt: It wasn’t directed through the recruiter. I loved watches, I loved Larson Jennings watches, but I didn’t think I could design them. I thought that was a different world altogether, and I hadn’t realized that actually, a lot of what I’d learned at university was very applicable. So all happened quite fast, actually, and got the job and they were taking a bit of a risk. They kind of saw me as an opportunity to nurture into a watch designer and actually sent me out to Hong Kong within my first two weeks of being in the company to basically learn what they were doing and then be able to apply that.

[00:11:54] Joseph: That sounds really cool to me to be able to be working for a watch. I love watches myself, and I think that sounds like a dream job in many ways to me. How did that go for you? Were you thinking, okay, I’m set. I’m going to focus on watch design. This is aligned with what I studied in university. I’m heading down the correct road. Were you seeing that this was going to be the path you were going to be on for a while? At that moment in time, if you can kind of remember back to that moment.

[00:12:20] Matt: When I joined them, they were still very much a startup, but an exciting startup. It was growing fast. Lots of young people in their vibrant office in London. Young founder yeah, just had this feeling that we were going to take over the world. That’s actually what we said. We’re going to take over the world one watch at a time. And I actually loved the whole machine of what we’re doing, the content social, the marketing, the operations, like, the whole thing fascinated me, and and I was exposed to all of it as well. I was connected to all those teams. And so I was doing just the design. But actually I found I was getting very interested in all the other cogs, seeing the founder, who was this young guy, I was quite inspired, probably inspired by my dad as well, thinking, well, I could be a business owner, I could do this. You know how exciting to have a group of people like this that you know, to build something and put it out there in the world. And the founder, Andy, was getting featured in GQ, and it just the whole thing was just a great buzz. I became more interested in the business, I guess I was doing design day to day, but also doing a lot of more kind of product, managing the managing factories. So actually not doing that much design towards as I got more established, the watch market was growing. It was really this was before the Apple Watch or the Apple Watch maybe had just come out. But we kind of were thinking, this isn’t going to disrupt things. This is fine. This is for a specific tech audience. But the way that it then disrupted the industry within the next two years, I realized this probably isn’t an industry with much longevity, and therefore I probably don’t want to be staying in it for too long.

[00:14:08] Joseph: So what triggered you to start to think about beginning and starting your own brand and business? I know that you started to kind of notice that this could maybe be part of your own lexicon and part of your own ethos to be a business owner, especially because your father was one. But was there a particular event or moment where you started to think, okay, no, this is something I really want to pursue.

[00:14:33] Matt: So firstly, my interest in sustainability started all the way back when I was on my placement year at Sunseeker. But I saw how boats were built and the huge amount of waste. I mean, it is staggering the amount of waste that goes into it. And I think that sparks an interest in sustainability. And then I started to try and push a more sustainable agenda at last. And jenning’s in the materials that we were using, we had a lot of stock at the time, and they weren’t willing to transition to new materials just because the business wasn’t in the position to do it. So there was this kind of moment of, of a few things coming at once, this kind of passion for sustainability, these new materials that were coming on the market. The excitement that I was getting for them. So these were low impact leather alternatives made from from fruit waste. They take the fruit waste from industries like the apple industry, where they create the fruit juice and the compote, and they take the waste and they turn it into essentially a leather alternative. And I was so excited about this, and I wanted to bring it into Glass and Jennings. And initially they were like, yeah, as I said, they got lots of stock. Can’t do it. And I think seeing the young founder being inspired by that. It was kind of those combination things where I found this material. I think I can do it myself because I can see it here. I’m excited by that.

[00:15:52] Matt: I’m going to do it myself. I’m going to do it. I think I can do it. I know about all the different areas. I know how to set up a website. Now I know what platform they’re using. I know how to do the marketing because I see them doing it every day. Maybe I can do this. And I also knew, because we started to get into small leather goods as a company. And so I started to understand things like the minimum order quantities that they had, and they were quite low. So I also was thinking, this won’t be too expensive to get into this. It won’t be like an upfront cost. So I also thought if I’m going to start a business, this is quite a good one because yeah, it’s not a massive investment that I have to put forward. So it could be just a side hobby actually initially, but realized I had to speak to the owner of the company to greenlight it, which I did, and actually he was very excited by it and said, no, this is going to be really beneficial for you. Probably beneficial for this company as well for you to kind of see the, you know, all the different things that go into starting a business. You should do it. I just started it very, very small to begin with. It was card holders I’d made first made 30 of them. Yeah. Sold those to family and friends and started Instagram and really just built it from there.

[00:17:02] Joseph: You’re making this shift now into entrepreneurship at this point, and you start with a few cardholders. What sort of product line were you thinking you were going to be focused on? At this point, it sounds like you didn’t pursue like watch straps. At that moment, you decided to go down card holders. How did you land on card holders, and how did that end up expanding into what we now know? As Oliver Co.

[00:17:25] Matt: Couldn’t go into watch straps because that was a conflict of interest a bit too far. We had just done a project with small leather goods looking at wallets, card holders. Actually, it was more female orientated for Larsson & Jennings. I felt safe designing those because I knew what I was doing. I knew I could create the technical drawings for that myself, and I didn’t have any exposure to any other products. So the other reason was I felt like carry goods more broadly. People were always going to need to carry stuff. No matter what happens with technology, people still need to carry stuff. So I also thought there was longevity in the business. The ethos of the company, the ethos of the company was to be the forefront of material innovation, and I could see that that was a long roadmap that was always going to be. You could always make a material more sustainable, lower impact circular products, and being able to completely recycle them was still a long way into the future. And I thought, well, then, if I baked that into the ethos of the company, there’s actually lots we could do.

[00:18:27] Joseph: Another question about you just starting up Oliver Co. How were you actually getting this business going? I know a lot of people who maybe listen to this show, they’ve got ideas, they’re thinking about launching a company. Maybe they want to start a product line or service. I mean, it sounds like, okay, I want to start this business, but what did you actually do to actually turn this thing into a concrete business? I’d imagine you need to find a supplier. You need to, I guess, find employees. Could you take me through some of those initial steps to make this thing real?

[00:18:58] Matt: So initially, the focus was on the product to make those 30 cardholders. And actually the challenge then was getting hold of the material because it was a brand new material. The company who produced it, who were initially the very focused on obviously large orders they’ve just got going. They want to be getting in with the automotive companies and the furniture companies. So they weren’t interested in working with startups at all. And so that was that was the first challenge, is just getting hold of the material, because the minimum order quantity of it was 150m, which can make thousands of car orders. So that wouldn’t do. So I had to try and get hold of like a sample piece almost. And I just kept calling this guy. I met him at the show. I had his number. There were two materials I was using, and out of a strange coincidence, they were collaborating over a project. These two different materials. One was made from wood and the other was made of that apple material. And I just texted them on that day. He said, I’m actually heading there. I’ve got some samples in the back of the car. I’ll give them ten meters of the brown. Will that be okay? And I was like, perfect. That’s amazing. Quite lucky in that sense, but that sort of got me going. Made the products. Launched a website with the cheapest platform I could find at the time, which was a company called Big Cartel. And really, it was initially just family and friends just telling people about what I was doing, setting up the Instagram. I guess Instagram pulled in probably the majority of the initial sales. It wasn’t like they flew off the shelves. It wasn’t at all. It was probably over a few months and that’s how I initially got started.

[00:20:39] Joseph: We should also probably mention that financially, this is still in a kind of startup early stage phase. You were also working full time, as I understand it at the time. How did you balance those two worlds like working full time? I understand a design firm at the time and also launching your own business.

[00:21:00] Matt: Yeah. Stuart Larson Jennings when I first started it and it was just morning and evenings, really. It was never crazy. I was never like, you know, working till the early hours of the morning. I would be quite structured in the way I did it. I generally get up quite early anyway, so I would normally do maybe a couple of hours in the morning before work and then in the evening just really sat in front of the TV doing the work as well. That’s really how I got started with it. I think having that prior knowledge of the different areas of the business and having them to lean on as well. Like I’d actually speak to the marketing team or the e-commerce team and say, how do I do this? Like, how do I change the coding of the website to look the way I want it to look? And they would literally on a lunchtime even just say, oh, you just need to do this thing.

[00:21:44] Joseph: What were some of the bigger challenges along the way that you can recall in those earlier days?

[00:21:52] Matt: The supply chain was the hardest bit. After those 30 wallets, the cardholders were made. I needed to work with a factory that had a bit more capacity. The first challenge was finding that factory and firstly, people taking you seriously because they know the size you are. There’s a lot of emailing with no response. And then I missed so many factories. Really. It was just like, oh my goodness, like someone wants to work with me. Not that. Oh, let’s test them for quality and see if there’s actually a good product. I was thinking about that, but more I was just relieved that someone wanted to work with me. And then when we started producing the product, The biggest challenge was that they’re handmade goods. The quality just wasn’t there. I wasn’t earning loads then. I was putting quite a lot of money of my own money into it, and so I found it really stressful. When production would arrive and there would be faults with 25% of the products that I had, and, you know, thinking that if I bring this up with the factory, I’m such a small they don’t need the hassle. I think. I think they’re just going to say, oh, just go away. And I was so fearful with that. I was kind of very reliant on them. But at the same time, I couldn’t accept I did have a high standard of what I thought was good. It was just a real challenge to get them to empathise with my position, try and get them to care more and fix the problems that I had. And it was a lot of back and forth.

[00:23:20] Joseph: How were you finding the entrepreneurial journey as a whole when you compare it to working full time for an employer that’s paying you a steady salary. Like, what was that experience like for you? Did you like that contrast? Were you enjoying it or were you finding it more stressful than it was worth?

[00:23:41] Matt: The lows felt low and stressful, but the highs were just awesome. You build this thing and then you get a small win. You know, you get featured in a magazine and you get a customer review. I couldn’t compare anything that was happening at work to that feeling of of building something and someone saying, I love this. I love what you’ve done here, and I love that. That part of having a business and having my own thing. The biggest thing I would compare with it, it was just it was my own creative outlet where I had full control.

[00:24:14] Joseph: So as those two jobs are running in parallel, so you’ve got the consultancy that you’re working for. You’ve got Oliver Co that you are running. How are you thinking about where your career was heading at that moment and where did you want it to head?

[00:24:30] Matt: At this point, now I’m pretty set on Oliver Co. My career. I saw the consultancy role as a really good learning curve for learning very detailed, high quality design, but I definitely saw all the lessons that I was learning there. I was thinking, how am I gonna apply this to my own business? The focus then was, how can I start to transition to this being a full time role? So within about a year of being at the consultancy, I asked my boss whether I could go down to four days a week because at this point my own business was growing. I brought in a friend of mine who was marketing digital marketing, and he introduced me to running ads through Instagram and Facebook. And that was like an overnight. Completely changed the business. It was like, like doubled revenue practically overnight.

[00:25:22] Joseph: Wow.

[00:25:22] Matt: Okay. And then I really kind of thought we can scale this now, like create more products, Run more ads. If the unit economics work and you’re not spending too much on the marketing. Your return on investment makes sense. Then you can turn up the dial on the ads and you’ll sell more product. That’s when I then went down to four days a week, then quite quickly went down to three days a week. Worth saying. I built a base of money, so I was lucky in that I had got money from my grandparents that I kept. I started saving money from my job. It was quite clear I wasn’t going to pay myself for a little while, so that was another part of the mindset and strategy was, I need to start saving because I’m going to probably make this jump.

[00:26:02] Joseph: So before we talk about your eventual shift into what you’re now doing for Native Design, can we talk a little bit about those couple of years? I’m just looking at the timeline here. Do I have it correct that between around like 2021 to the present day is when you were kind of more fully dedicated to Oliver Co?

[00:26:23] Matt: There was a period of time where I was very focused.

[00:26:27] Joseph: How long was that for when you were, like, 100%. This is all I’m doing, Oliver. It was post consultancy.

[00:26:33] Matt: Yeah. So that was a year and a half.

[00:26:36] Joseph: So a year and a half. What was that year and a half like for you when you were just like 100% all in on Oliver Co?

[00:26:43] Matt: Incredibly exciting. I had my own space in London, and, you know, it was just like my, again, my sort of complete outlet of everything. I wanted the brand to be in a room. It was, yeah, incredibly exciting and at the same time, a whole new level of stress, knowing that I didn’t have any income coming in. And it was almost like a clock of like, you’ve got a clock, but it’s only going to last a year. Max, you need to grow this business and get this working. And I think there was probably a bit of naivety to the scale that I needed to get to, what levers I needed to pull in order to grow the business. So there was a lot of trial and error, and probably quite frantic. I was very motivated in the office early, and the day would just melt away, and I feel like I’m doing quite enough because I guess it wasn’t growing fast enough. So as time went on, the stress levels went up more and more, and there’s literally even an app on your phone that you can see the sales each day. And if I’d had a bad day of sales, it completely affected me outside of work as well, like I was. I would be miserable to be around, so it would be what I was thinking about. I was going, I’d be checking the website, is it down, what’s going on? And yeah, I’m like, listen, my now wife. She was just beside herself with it. It was carnage. Thinking back to it, before I had the office and I didn’t have the office straight away in Bermondsey initially, I had all the stock in the flat that we were living in, and I’d be getting up early and doing all the orders so I could get down to the post office and the whole room would just go explode with tissue paper everywhere and cardboard, and it was just absolutely carnage. Like get there when the post office opens and and then rush back. And then I was just at my laptop.

[00:28:30] Joseph: And was it you packing up these . . .

[00:28:33] Matt: Yes! And if it was personalization, I’d be embossing it as well with their initials. And I love that about it. I love that– I probably am a generalist at heart. I love getting stuck into kind of a bit of everything. That’s what I’ve realized is that I love learning how to do the website. I love learning how to do the marketing on Instagram, and it was a really frantic time. I just learned so much. But then I guess the reality hit after about a year that I wasn’t growing it fast enough.

[00:29:09] Joseph: Is this like a one-man operation at this point? Do you have employees? Do you have freelancers contractors who are helping you? Or is it literally Matt in your bedroom packing parcels on your own and literally running to the post office?

[00:29:25] Matt: So I mentioned the marketing manager in the early days, getting me set up on the digital advertising, and then I brought in some freelancers to help me out here and there. But at that point, still, like 90% of it was just me doing it all. Then as the business grew, I could start hiring more freelancers.

[00:29:43] Joseph: This is what I hear from entrepreneurs is, at least in the early days, when you’re doing the vast majority of the work, this thing is yours. Like, it feels almost like is your baby. And this is you are pouring your blood, sweat and tears into this thing. And I think you were about to say that things. I guess the business wasn’t growing as fast as you would have liked it to grow. I’ve always curious at what point do you decide that something needs to change? You’ve invested so much into this at this point, and you’re not seeing the traction and the growth that you want to see. How did you think through that? Like, how did you think through whether you needed to make a change not only to the business, but also your involvement with the business.

[00:30:26] Matt: It was more a financial decision. I was at a stage in my life where I was about to get married. We wanted to buy a house, so it was kind of at this point where, okay, I’m now starting to pay myself, but this is actually really putting the brakes on the company, and I can’t see how on earth we’re going to grow it if I’m not reinvesting this. But I couldn’t just keep going on and on without an income. So if the business wasn’t at the size where I could keep it going. But I did take comfort in the fact that it was now at a size where I could go get a full time role. The business could self-sustain, and I could hire freelancers to keep the lights on and keep it going and keep growing it. I think I would have been really heartbroken if it was like, I need to go get a full time job and I have to, like, stop the business entirely. I think. I think I really would have struggled with that. I kind of felt like I got the best of both worlds in the way.

[00:31:25] Joseph: Before we get to some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way. I do have a couple more questions about this transition that you made where you shifted back into full time work, but at the same time, you were also outsourcing the work at Oliver Co. And I know those two are related, and at the same time, they’re two quite big decisions individually also. So just outsourcing versus doing the work yourself. And this is something that I actually really struggle with as somebody who runs my own business, is when to let go and when to hand the keys over to somebody else. I would be really interested to hear how were you able to just let go of stuff and to hand it over to these other people? I know that’s what companies do all the time, and that’s what managers do. And people hire people all the time. But when it’s your own business and your name is literally I’ve got one of your cardholders, right? I mean, your name is on this thing. And so I’m just curious how you let go of control.

[00:32:20] Matt: It was a difficult and also very fast lesson that I had to learn in that getting my role at Native happened so fast. I expressed an interest with a recruiter. He literally got me the interview within about a week, and then within two days they gave me an offer and in my mind, I was this was going to be a lot longer process of getting finding a job, and it was going to give me time to learn how to relinquish control, understand how to set people up in the way that I want them to. I thought all these things were yeah, it was just going to happen at a slower pace, but it didn’t. The offer was there on the table, and they very kindly said, we want you to start now, but if you need to sort out your business, because they firstly amazing that they let me continue with the business. I think a lot of companies would say no, that’s going to be distracting for you. You need to stop it. They again saw it as a positive. Having my own business and they gave me the time. So initially I was on I was doing three days a week, and I said, you know, can I do that for a month? So then I had two days on Oliver Code just to start to make that transition. Then went to four and then went to full time.

[00:33:37] Matt: That was over a period of two months. In that two months, I had to learn and hire the right freelancers to relinquish that control. It was stressful initially, or that’s scary. It was the one thing I felt very confident. Running all the different parts of the business, I always felt like I could quickly learn something and do it myself, but the one thing I had never learned was how to manage other people to do this work. And so there was someone that I met who was also a founder of a company, and he had also transitioned into a full time job, almost exactly the same situation as me. And he said something. He was like. When you relinquish control and get out of the way of the business, you’d probably be surprised how much it will grow. He was like, just get out of the way. Sometimes you’re your own worst enemy in a business, and if you leave someone who is specialist in marketing to do the marketing, you’ll be amazed at how good they could be and how much they could grow. And that’s kind of pretty much exactly how it went. I brought in someone to do the marketing, someone to do the graphic design and customer service, and they were all brilliant at what they did. And the business grew. They did better with me. Not in the way of it.

[00:35:00] Joseph: How is your return to full time work been? Because you were working full time, then you went and did the entrepreneurship full time, and now you’re back into full time employment? I know Oliver Co is still out there, which I know is quite different than it not being out there. I’ve always been really curious what it’s like for an entrepreneur to go back and then work for somebody else.

[00:35:22] Matt: It was difficult in some ways. In other ways, it wasn’t because the role itself was quite self-starting. There was no one else in my role. It was in design strategy slash business development. There was no one in the team doing it. So it was very much I had complete ownership of that. In some ways it felt like my own, my own little business within the business. I guess it would be. It would have been quite different had I gone into a role where I had a manager that was very much telling me what to do every single day. It wasn’t that. So it was a bit easier. In that year I was running my business. I was in a room majority of time completely by myself. It was lonely. There were people. There were other entrepreneurs in the same block as me. And, you know, I’d see them on lunch and we would catch up them. I had a social person. I loved being around people, so I did find it quite challenging not being around people in that year. So being in a company with 80 people, I was immediately energized by that.

[00:36:19] Joseph: Well, the last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up, Matt, are just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey? First of all, what has been the most surprising thing for you about simultaneously running your own business? I know you’ve relinquished some control of it, but it’s still your business while also being employed. Has there been anything in particular that’s been surprising about having those two things running simultaneously?

[00:36:47] Matt: The surprising thing would be around the balance having more time for my personal life, even though it was, it was almost like it was going to become more condensed. My life with having the business and my personal life and Oliver Co and I thought, how am I going to juggle all of this? And how am I going to be optimum with Oliver Co, still drive it forward and still be good at my work. And and I’ve realized the more I have created the balance between them all and really focus on that. The more energized and focused I’ve become on each thing. And I’ve been surprised by that in a way, because I really thought I was never going to get the balance. Yeah, I thought I was going to get pulled in different directions and feel quite stressed in this position, but actually being quite strict and splitting them up and making sure I felt like I was more balanced has really helped.

[00:37:38] Joseph: Do you have any sort of advice that you would give to somebody who’s maybe listening to this, and they’re thinking about launching their own business? This idea of going all in and kind of burning the boats and just focusing 100% on the business versus taking a more, I guess, measured, maybe more diversified approach to your career. Do you have any thoughts on or advice for somebody who’s kind of weighing up whether they should just jump in or whether they should kind of dabble at first and kind of dip their toe in?

[00:38:10] Matt: I personally think dipping your toe in is the best way. Keeping hold of your job as long as you possibly can. Probably learning quite early to outsource what you can. I think it’s so easy to say with hindsight, but building a business where you thought through the unit economics or whatever service you’re going to provide, like is this actually going to be profitable? Because I think I didn’t give enough focus to that. And then if there is a way of going more slowly into it, you’ll start to learn the lessons and it will be nowhere near as stressful as just going all in. I wish I kept my hold on my job a little bit longer, because there was that initial financial stress quite quickly. Going all in has its merits as well, depending on the type of business, but it wouldn’t be for me.

[00:38:57] Joseph: Final question before we wrap up here, what are 1 or 2 things you’ve learned about yourself as you’ve gone through all these pivots in your career and had these different formats of working.

[00:39:11] Matt: Yeah, I guess the thing that I touched on before is that I’m energized by people. That was kind of one of the main things. I think the relinquishing of control, and that’s something that I’m able to do, I can still be incredibly passionate about something without being in full control of it, and I can apply that to my role. Now we’re actually expanding the team, and there’s other aspects of my role that have now involved other people where I can start again, relinquishing control, and it’s felt easier.

[00:39:39] Joseph: Well, I do want to wrap up with something that I know you’re focused on right now, in addition to all of our Co, which is your work there at Native Design, can you tell me what you are currently working on doing right now at Native Design? And if anybody wants to learn more about what you do, where they can go.

[00:39:58] Matt: Yes, I mentioned at the beginning we’re a design and innovation consultancy. We’ve been going 25 years, a team of 80 in central London. Yeah. Working across physical, industrial design and engineering and digital design, and working with clients of everything from start-ups all the way up to your fortune 500, designing products and digital experiences for them. It’s incredibly diversified, the work we do. We design speakers one minute, the laptops and other and the interiors of automotive medical products and always something different going on in the studio, which I find incredibly exciting. Always a different challenge to solve. It’s an exciting time now because we’re looking to grow, growing into different markets, so trying to move into climate tech. So looking at things like heat pumps, batteries, energy storage, that kind of thing. Growing more in medical technology and the life science industry as well. And everyone’s talking about it. Ai being the buzzword, but these are transforming these industries, and we are right at the forefront of how to implement this stuff. So it’s a really cool time to be in this role in it. Native.

[00:41:07] Joseph: Thank you so much for telling us more about your life as a designer, Matt, as a business owner, and the balance that you have managed between full time employment and entrepreneurship. And as a proud owner myself of an Oliver Co card holder, I’ve bought plenty of your wallets and products and gifted them to friends. They’re all thrilled with them, so I definitely recommend people check out Oliver Co if people are interested in learning more about native design or even applying for a role, I hope that they’ll reach out to you and check out the company. And so I just wish you the best of luck with both Oliver Co and your work at Native Design. And thank you so much for coming on to the show.

[00:41:43] Matt: No, not so. Thank you so much for having me.

What does it mean to live your best life? Is it achieving professional success? Financial freedom? Being physically fit? Having a loving family? Pursuing a clear purpose? All of the above? In episode 106 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Sadaf Raza, a former investment banker turned brand marketer turned founder of Leadearly, a business school admissions consultancy. Sadaf provides unique perspectives on changing industries and shifting from full-time employment to running your own business. We discuss how to avoid the trap of doing what you feel you should do in your career so you can focus your efforts on what you want to do to honor your own values and priorities. She also shares a few helpful perspectives on how attending business school can enable your career pivot.

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged you to identify the top pillars you’ve been dedicating your energies to in your life and career recently. Name them. Then, look honestly at what you’ve been prioritizing and consider whether you’ve been investing your energies into the right pillars that bring you joy. Avoid fixating on achieving the standard, societal definition of success. Dedicate your energy and resources to what makes you happy, not what you feel should make you happy.

00:00:00 Overview

Sadaf Raza is the founder of Leadearly, a leading admissions consultancy for Master’s, MBA, and Executive MBA programmes in the UK & Europe. Sadaf prides herself in being able to quickly identify and articulate an individual’s unique strengths, leveraging the industry expertise she’s gained herself through multiple career pivots to help candidates shape their business school applications. She’s worked as an Investment Banker at Bank of America, Brand Manager at Procter & Gamble, and Franchise Manager for EMEA at Johnson & Johnson, before starting her first entrepreneurial venture in retail. She has an MBA from INSEAD and is passionate about using her 20+ years of experience to help others accelerate in their careers.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered on future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!

Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise.

[00:03:24] Joseph: Well, I know you’ve got a lot going on right now and there’s so much we want to cover today. I would love to start by just getting a sense of what you have been focused on professionally right now in your life, and then we can talk about anything going on for you personally in a moment.

[00:03:38] Sadaf: So I’m an admissions consultant. I work with Masters, MBA and MBA applicants in the UK, Europe and beyond, and it’s just come to the end of the busiest admissions season. So it’s been full on and at the moment we’re doing lots of interviews I interview on behalf of Insead Business School, and so I really enjoy helping people prepare for their interviews, whether it’s for admission or for a job or a promotion that they’re working on. And I think as we come into the summer, there will be a lot more of that to come. So it’s been fun. I love what I do, so it doesn’t feel so much like work, but it’s been busy.

[00:04:15] Joseph: I guess you’re familiar with lots of different business school programs. You work with lots of different business school applicants. Are you working with any particular type of cohort? Are these the people who want to do an MBA or an executive MBA or both?

[00:04:29] Sadaf: I think because I myself am an alumni from Insead Business school, I tend to get a lot of Insead focused applicants, but most people are applying to multiple places. I also get a lot of master’s applicants for like specific subjects like economics or finance or management or marketing. So it’s a mix, and I think that makes it interesting for me also.

[00:04:51] Joseph: What about personally anything keeping you especially busy recently in your your life outside of work?

[00:04:57] Sadaf: I have a two boys that keep me exceptionally busy. Not in this season, but in all seasons.

[00:05:04] Joseph: How old are your boys?

[00:05:06] Sadaf: They are turning four this weekend and ten next month.

[00:05:10] Joseph: Oh, wow. Okay. So, I guess very different types of challenges with those ages and different things that they’re doing. Well, I know that you haven’t always worked in this space as a business school admissions consultant. I do want to talk about your time working in a range of industries, including banking, marketing, and eventually talk a little bit more about lead early. I would love to go back in time a little bit. And first of all, talk about where you’re originally from. I know you’re based in the UK now. Where did you grow up, and can you tell me a little bit about that environment?

[00:05:42] Sadaf: I grew up in Lahore in Pakistan, so very different environment. I’m one of four girls. I went to an all girls school. I was the first one in my family to go abroad to study. My parents didn’t know at the time that I applied, and it was just something that I really wanted to do. And then after that, all my female cousins sort of came there much more naturally. But yes, I was seeking new adventures and and opportunities, and I guess that’s what drove me.

[00:06:13] Joseph: Now I have, as I mentioned to you before we started this recording, I have been to Lahore actually myself. Could you give people a glimpse into what life was like for you? What do you remember about your childhood growing up there? And can you paint a picture of just the overall environment, especially in the context of careers, what you thought you wanted to do when you grew up, what maybe you were told you should do when you grow up? What was that like for you over there?

[00:06:40] Sadaf: I remember having sort of lots of long summers being bored. There was a lot of time with cousins. There was a lot of time with family. There was definitely girls versus boys. Things to do, you know, like a divide there. Yeah. It was a very happy, simple childhood. Let’s put it that way.

[00:07:04] Joseph: How did you come to the decision to move to the UK? Because I would imagine that’s quite a leap to take, going from Pakistan all the way here to Europe. Do you remember how you started to think about wanting to move away from home?

[00:07:20] Sadaf: It was just wanting opportunity. You know, I felt like a lot of things that you maybe saw on TV or, or you heard about was just not offered to you. Even things like sort of work experience while you were a student. I mean, nobody does that in Pakistan because you don’t have side jobs. It’s not safe. As a girl to do so. And I think that a lot of times I’d heard people say, girls can’t do this, right. So, for instance, I remember I used to debate in school like a lot of children now do. And I remember one of the semi-finals in the debating championships. I was from a girls school. We were up against the old boys school, a leading school, and one of the boys said, you know, girls can’t win from boys, you know, just 16 or 17 years old. And I remember being very pumped in my team and being like, yes, we’re going to do this. And then we ended up winning. You know, I won National Debater. I think that changed things for me. When you sort of somebody tells you you can’t do it and then you do. That was probably a year before this decision to apply to university. So I feel like, you know, when you do one small thing that you thought you couldn’t, that kind of gives you confidence to do the next thing.

[00:08:35] Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit now about your time in the UK and that chapter of your career. There’s a lot to cover here. I’d love to start by talking about just your educational entry into the UK and what that transition was like for you, how that started to shape what you thought you might want to do professionally.

[00:08:55] Sadaf: So when I came to London in my very first week, I thought, I’m a Londoner, I’m going to live here. This is amazing. And I signed up to every club or activity that there was at university. And then I was very focused on getting internships, because I knew that you need some experience to be able to do that. And while my degree was in computer science, the investment banks were the ones that were really hiring because you had to prove for a Pakistani student that nobody else in the country can do the job that you can do. And, you know, you’re like 17 or 18, 19. At the time, that felt like a tall ask. And so then I was kind of focused on, you know, getting all the help I could with building my CV and kind of getting help with my interview skills. And I guess this is what maybe motivates me to do what I do today, because I got a lot of help from well-meaning people along the way. And that advice paved the way for me. And and I enjoy doing that for other people.

[00:09:52] Joseph: Now, you would eventually land at Bank of America as an investment banker. That is no small task to land a role like that coming out of university. Like, what do you attribute that to? Because it’s a very competitive industry. And as you mentioned, you’re coming here as a foreign student. How do you feel you were able to land a role for such a competitive role in a competitive industry?

[00:10:17] Sadaf: Honestly, it was the right advice at the right time. I know I wasn’t the only one at a good university getting good grades. Everybody who was applying to these internships was I was just the person who at the time didn’t have the knowledge to pay for experts to help me, but I would speak to anybody who I thought had, you know, some advice to offer and got some very useful advice at the right time, because I think a lot of time people are willing and able, but they don’t recognize what is needed for a particular industry or a particular role. And I think that helped me then pitch myself in a very targeted way to those employers.

[00:10:59] Joseph: Now, in terms of the investment banking world itself, I will say we haven’t had a tremendous number of AI bankers on the show, and I’d be interested just to get a glimpse into what that world was like for you. I know this was many years ago, but you spent three years in this industry. And I think when I think about the corporate world, I guess stereotypically AI, banking and maybe like consulting would be up there as one of the supposedly most, like cutthroat, intense competitive environments with long hours. What did you think you were getting into? And then what was the actual reality of working as an investment banker for you?

[00:11:43] Sadaf: I mean, all that you hear about Workaholism is true. The culture was definitely be in before anybody else and leave after everybody else and be busy, you know, and be challenged. You want kind of explained tasks so well. It was sort of, you know, take your best attempt at doing the work and then somebody senior then you will improve it and eventually somebody will fix it and and give it forward. So it was a lot of thrown at the deep end. But at the same time it was very exciting. You know, doing the analyst training program in New York, you went and like lived in a hotel for I think it was ten weeks or something traveling and like having meetings with CEOs of companies. And you’re right there in the room with them and you’ve done some of the pitch work. So you are kind of presenting your numbers. The training was really good. I think for me, I always knew that I had a creative side, and I feel that my upbringing and the conditioning was those who could do Stem subjects did those, those who couldn’t, they would do more creative subjects. So while I was good at maths and I was good at more creative things, it was obvious I was pushed towards technical stuff because I was so lucky that I could. That’s when I realised, okay, I’m doing all this training, that’s great, but I want to do stuff that I’m very excited to do and I need that to be more creative. Structured finance was considered the most creative side of the bank, but it wasn’t quite the creativity I was looking for. And so I decided to move out of there.

[00:13:14] Joseph: Now, how did you come to the decision to move into brand management? I hear you that you wanted to work in a more creative industry. Was marketing just the obvious next step for you? How did you come to that decision to move from banking into marketing?

[00:13:30] Sadaf: It was not an obvious one. I didn’t know much about marketing at all, to be honest. I was confusing it with sales. You know, they were all mis matched in my brain. I didn’t know anybody who worked in marketing because then suddenly I was surrounded by everybody in finance and tech. And so that was tricky to figure out what I wanted to do. But actually, I think the admission essays for these business schools that I was applying to, because they make you write very detailed answers about specific short term, long term career strategy. And so I realized I don’t know much about this. Let me apply to something that sounds exciting. I thought Procter and Gamble was like this, you know, marketing school best in class, and I was the only one company I applied to. And I only intended to learn about brand management through the process. And then I ended up getting an offer from Insead and P&G the same weekend. But that was the whole idea of applying was to learn. And then I decided to take the plunge and do Procter and Gamble. And I was lucky enough to defer my entry to Insead, so I managed to do both, but it was a little bit of, I have an idea what I want to do, but I need to start doing it to figure it out.

[00:14:43] Joseph: That’s a good weekend of news, I suppose.

[00:14:46] Sadaf: Yes.

[00:14:47] Joseph: And so you’ve got the option of going to business school. You have the option of going to one of the top tier consumer packaged goods companies. Was that a tricky decision for you to decide which to do first? Because I know I guess you could argue it either way, I guess. On the one hand, it’s good to get some additional experience before you get to business school, but on the other hand, I guess you could go to business school and learn the nuts and bolts of marketing before applying it. How did you think through that educational decision versus let me go further in my professional experiences?

[00:15:19] Sadaf: I am the type of person who usually wants to do both, if I can. And so I realized that if I was more familiar with brand management, since I didn’t know much about it, I just had this one experience that would be more meaningful to then go to business school to use that knowledge and see where I want to go from there. And that was definitely the right decision, because when I did join Johnson and Johnson after Insead, they had a fast track leadership program and I jumped about 6 to 8 years in the marketing hierarchy because I had done the marketing and then I had come in now as a senior person. And so I didn’t know that at the time, but that worked out much better for me. And I do think before business school, most people use the business school to transition because they can’t transition without it. And so if you do have the opportunity to transition, it’s an immense learning experience to know what it is that you want to do by being in it a little bit. And so I think that was a better strategy.

[00:16:19] Joseph: What was the world of brand management like for you at Procter and Gamble and J&J? Did you feel like you were able to feed that creative thirst that you had? And how was that career chapter sitting with you personally? Do you recall what that was like?

[00:16:35] Sadaf: Yes, I loved it. The creativity, it felt quite natural. It was very practical. You know, you go into stores and you see your products everywhere, and I would fix it on a shelf if I saw something in boots. And it was a great learning experience. Also practically like when I did entrepreneurship later, sort of the brand marketing training was about, you know, understanding consumers, understanding your brand, understanding how to get more consumers to buy from you. And I think that was very valuable training.

[00:17:09] Joseph: One other thing I think that comes up sort of, with people who make these radical industry changes is sort of a sense of, I don’t know how to put this, but a bit of tension between trying to maintain your past trajectory or to go off and make a leap, which is, I think, what you did here and pursue something that you actually genuinely feel passionate about. Was it a struggle at all for you to walk away from the banking world? And I don’t mean that as like a leading question, but given that it’s so competitive to get in, was there any part of you that felt like so many people would want this role? Maybe I should stick with this? Or was that not really an issue?

[00:17:48] Sadaf: No, absolutely. People thought I was ungrateful, you know, to have this opportunity and to reject it. Like, who would do that? And to be clear, I was very grateful. I appreciated, you know, I could not have stayed in the country if I hadn’t had the job. And I learned so much. But it was when I started speaking to people, actually, I spoke to a career coach at the time. And, you know, the advice to me was, stick it out longer here. Don’t leave yet because the good part is coming. And then I realized, but when I have more experience in finance, but then I want to change, it’s going to actually be even harder because the opportunity cost is going to be even more. And I’m now going to be more of an expert in finance. So if you want to stay within the industry and pivot, maybe that more experience can be handy. But if you want to change industry, then Actually, it’s better to get out earlier because it just only gets harder the longer you stay.

[00:18:48] Joseph: So you are enjoying your time at J&J. You’re loving the world of brand management and the creative outlet that it provides. I know eventually you would shift into doing some more entrepreneurial endeavors. How did that come about and how did things start for you having some entrepreneurial business on the side?

[00:19:12] Sadaf: So I had two business partners on the ground in Pakistan when I started the retail venture, and it was really a conversation that came up about a business opportunity in the retail space. As somebody with an entrepreneurial flair, I just saw the opportunity in it. And then as somebody who had now done business school, I could see the potential in it. Bit. And as somebody who is a marketeer, the excitement of building a brand from scratch without anything constricting you was super exciting. And lastly, as somebody who was ambitious, then kind of determining my own fate and being able to run, which is what I wanted to do at the time, felt like more exciting than the perfectly happy career I had in Brand Manager. And so those are the reasons I decided to take that leap.

[00:20:05] Joseph: Now I’m just looking at the timeline here. So if I’ve got this correct, correct me if I’m wrong here, but you’re at J&J from 2010 to 2012. Letelier, which is this venture that you mentioned that you co-founded in Pakistan that’s running from 2010 to 2016. So it seems like there was some overlap here. How did you manage that? J&j like that’s a pretty intense not intense. But like I guess it’s quite a demanding job at this company. And at the same time you’re trying to start this other business in Pakistan remotely. How did you balance that?

[00:20:38] Sadaf: So I think of Natalia as my first child.

[00:20:41] Joseph: Okay.

[00:20:42] Sadaf: And as any parent would tell you, you have no idea what you’re getting into. And then you somehow find the time to keep this child alive and thriving while having a full time job. And you’re probably just sleepless. You’re tired, but you’re excited. You know you’re doing them both. So that’s exactly how it was so exciting. And yes, and I definitely could not have done it with two partners on the ground. But I did the business development and the marketing things that I enjoyed my forte. And yes, the business did really well. And that kind of is another encouragement that keeps you going.

[00:21:18] Joseph: The other thing I was curious about is because it sounds like you were balancing both for a while and at the same time, eventually, again, if I’ve got the timeline right here, you would dedicate your time full time to working on lately. How did you come to that decision to let go of the steady, full time work and to dedicate yourself 100% to what was, I suppose, initially a side hustle, but eventually would be your full time focus?

[00:21:49] Sadaf: Yes. So it was the success of Le Tellier. We were profitable from day one. Our business model was very good. And so not just in revenue, I mean profitability. We made our money back in 15 months. This was, you know, big 6000ft² retail space. We were running. And then we grew into our own label, a salon on the retail premises, online store. And it was a point where we were going to open another store in another city, which was also going to be even bigger, like 10,000ft² of space. And I thought, okay, I am ready. I need to be on the ground and I need to take this to the next level.

[00:22:29] Joseph: What do you remember during those first days of going from going to an office to kind of being in it with Letelier, and I suppose doing a wide range of a lot of things all at once. What was that transition like for you?

[00:22:46] Sadaf: It was very exciting. It was like, it’s like you’re obsessed with this project. You know, you’re always thinking about it. You always have ideas around it. I mean, I didn’t have children at the time, so it was easier to be, you know, all in. And there was a lot happening. But I have very happy memories of that period.

[00:23:03] Joseph: So then I guess this then begs the question. So it sounds like things are going well there. You guys are growing rapidly. On paper, this looks like a pretty good transition you’re running Letelier. Things are going well. It sounds like it’s super exciting. Where does lead? Early, then? Come into the picture. How did that enter into this world of entrepreneurship for you?

[00:23:27] Sadaf: Yes. So there were two things happening there. One was the retail industry, which has struggled worldwide. We had similar issues with retail, so you either had to like double down and go into production or something, or you were just paying three times more for the same retail space because the laws had changed and the economics was just not there in the same way. And then at the same time as I was thinking, do I want to kind of, you know, go into production now in Pakistan, I contemplated what was it that I was really passionate about because the retail opportunity was because my business partners were passionate about the sector, and I saw the business opportunity in it. And as I thought about my own passions, that’s where the education industry became apparent to me, because I was always the sort of person who was a lifelong learner. I really valued all the investment and learning I made and how it changed my trajectory, and I really wanted to help people kind of learn from not just my experiences, but the experiences of all the people I now had access to in my network who were doing really well. And that’s when I felt like, okay, this is a space that I would like to play in.

[00:24:43] Joseph: I’d love to shift gears here just a little bit. Now set off and talk about this solo venture of yours, because you guys you were working on lately with a couple of business partners. What’s different about this is you’re running this on your own, and I’d love to hear a little bit about what the early days were like for you in like 2016, when you were just trying to get this idea off the ground? Like, what do you remember? I guess I’m thinking about the good, the bad and the ugly as you’re trying to take this idea of working in the education space and turn it into something concrete.

[00:25:20] Sadaf: I bootstrapped it. That was always my business style, you know, like, have the business make money and then reinvest it. And initially, it was very exciting. It was kind of like that. It’s the lean product. I’m forgetting the term, but it’s basically you kind of you’re selling the idea and you’re making the product at the same time, right? And it’s just you and your and you’re running with it. It was very exciting. I was led by creativity. And so in that period, I mean, I made a simulation from scratch. And I had like, you know, so much exciting stuff going on. So it was great, but it was also very busy because it was just one of me. And so it was nonstop. You were running before you could walk, and you were kind of doing that all over again. So it was quite tough, that bit of it. It was relentless.

[00:26:04] Joseph: I’m just thinking you mentioned you’ve got a ten year old son. And so this is I guess 26.

[00:26:09] Sadaf: The math that you’re doing is I love it.

[00:26:11] Joseph: It’s like basic math.

[00:26:12] Sadaf: Every date.

[00:26:13] Joseph: Not investment banking math basic math here. But so he’s entering the picture here, I guess at the exact same time that you’re trying to get this off the ground. And I’m just curious how you managed that because you got this newborn. I think that is coinciding with you trying to get this business started. I’d love to hear a little bit more about that balance.

[00:26:36] Sadaf: Let me add one more thing to the mix to make it more exciting for you, Joseph. The week I actually launched, literally, I was living in UAE at the time, so in Dubai was the week I moved back to London.

[00:26:48] Joseph: Was that intentional?

[00:26:50] Sadaf: So the idea was I was planning to move back to London and I wanted to test the idea out in Dubai. I kind of wanted to do a pilot, and the pilot took off, and it made sense to kind of fuel the fire where it was burning, but starting it in London because it was already had started in Dubai. And so I just kept running with that then. And I had a little baby and living in the country. Yes, it was a lot.

[00:27:21] Joseph: I would also be curious to hear about the evolution of lead early. So you’re coming up, I guess, to ten years of running this thing. How has your business changed or not changed over the past few years?

[00:27:37] Sadaf: Yes. So it has changed. I changed my business model, going with kind of conventional business school wisdom about scale, which is what I was doing at the time. So we were growing like 2 or 300%, but it wasn’t enough. You just had to keep reinvesting and keep growing. I realized that I wanted to do a business that was more a freedom first sort of model, and I’d love to hear your thoughts because I feel you live in the same space.

[00:28:04] Joseph: Yeah, we can.

[00:28:04] Sadaf: Talk about that. Like, you know, you’re building all of this to one day, eventually exit. You know, you don’t know when that day is going to be. And this period just feels like really intense and non-stop. You know, I had one child, I wanted to have another child at the time. And I was like, how am I going to fit this all in? And then Covid happened, which in some ways was a gift to me personally because I couldn’t travel to Dubai. They were very strict about the way the program was categorized. You know, you could not operate it. There was no distancing way of running it. It was kind of in the banned stuff category for a while. Parents who were sending their children to homeschool will remember that was not a pleasant experience, and nobody wanted to have more screen time for their children, you know, beyond school hours. And that took me back to the drawing board. And then I thought, okay, I still want to be in education. I still really want to help people with all that I have learned. But how do I do it in a in a meaningful way that supports a life that I have, that gives me freedom to spend time with my children, to look after my health, my family, but also help people in a significant way. And this period in their lives when they’re applying to university. And it can make the difference between them going to a second year university or a premier university. I mean, that totally changes your options. Or if you are, you know, applying for a job and you’re not getting it, getting that job means economic transformation for yourself and your family. That felt really something worth doing. And so that’s how I pivoted. And I am here in this version of lead early today.

[00:29:49] Joseph: Am I correct in thinking that this is still just you at this point, running the day to day, and you are the one doing the consulting?

[00:29:56] Sadaf: Yes, by design it is me who will directly work with any candidate. And I don’t plan to have like a team of staff because I want to be able to do this work directly. This is what I enjoy doing with people. And I have, of course, teams of people, agencies helping me do stuff. But the idea is on a need basis. I hire people for the role that they’re providing, but I don’t want to have scale an organization with lots of employees as a business model. And I understand, Joseph, you do something similar. So I would love to hear your thoughts on this too.

[00:30:29] Joseph: There’s a really interesting topic for me because I don’t know about you, but as somebody who runs my own business and has run my own business for over a decade now, I will say that it’s quite often that I’ll get questions from other people, especially people I think, in the coaching space, because I guess technically I sit in that industry like the coaching industry, and I regularly get questions about like, are you thinking about growing your team? Have you thought about scaling this? Questions about like passive income streams, and I, like you, have resisted, I guess, the temptation or the pressure to scale or to try to scale. And at the same time, it just comes up a lot in discussion. And it’s something that does make me think about it. Like I think about like, am I doing this the right way? Should I be scaling? Like, should I be growing? Is this not big enough? Is this not fancy enough? And so it’s something that I have wrestled with over the years. But I’ve always come back to some of the things that you mentioned, which is just that I do prioritize the flexibility. I’m also a parent, and with our daughter, seven years old, I want to be able to maximize my time with her, and I feel like that’s easier to do if it’s just me, but it’s come up a lot. And yeah, I’d be curious to hear how you have thought about that, or maybe deflected any of the incoming questioning that you’ve gotten, especially because you have been in a situation where you did run a business that was scaling and was growing exponentially. So yeah, I’d be curious to hear how you’ve thought through that.

[00:32:03] Sadaf: I feel like my business is still growing. I like the fact that I work with a select number of people, but I can choose who I work with. I’m still kind of pushing myself outside my comfort zone doing some new things, so I still feel it’s exciting. And so for me, I think this is a lesson in life that, you know, even when I did banking, for instance, you know, there’s well-meaning people giving you good advice about what would be better for your future. You have to kind of take that in, but then you have to remember you are the expert on yourself and the only one at that. And you have to think about, okay, what is it that will really make me happy? What is it that I’m trying to solve for or do? And does this add to that? Or is this just a good opportunity or something that somebody thinks is a good idea, but maybe it’s not for you at this point in time? And so I am much better now at asking myself the question and deciding independently and with clarity that actually, you know, this is what suits me. This is what I’m looking for more of in my life right now. It feels really good. But you have to keep remembering that because it doesn’t stop people, you know, asking you and well-meaning meaning giving you advice, and so you have to take it as a gift and then use it or or just put it on the side.

[00:33:24] Joseph: I do want to talk about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your journey. And also, I’d love to cover a little bit around getting into business school and any tips you have for people on that. But before we do that, you mentioned something that you want to have more of in your life, which makes me think of the topic of wealth, where people are traditionally measuring wealth in terms of material possessions or money that you’ve earned or financial assets you’ve accumulated. And at the same time, I guess you’re mentioning a different type of wealth, which is more like lifestyle wealth, which is freedom and control of your time, the ability to have a flexible schedule so you can spend time with the people you want to spend time with. How has your measure of wealth evolved over the years? And I guess I’m thinking about this because in the context of you, because you started off in the investment banking industry, which is about as financially focused as an industry can get. And now you’re someone who’s focused much more on these other lifestyle aspects of wealth. And I’d love to hear a little bit about how your measures of wealth, or what you have wanted to have more of, has evolved for you over the years.

[00:34:36] Sadaf: It’s a great question. So there’s two things that come to mind. One is I think there was a study done by Harvard maybe where they asked, I don’t know how many people on their deathbed, what they wish they had done differently. And nobody said earn more money or work more. And everybody said some version of spend more time with the people that matter to me. And I think as you kind of think about your future, I think it’s wise to learn from people who are already at that end of their life and looking back. And so I think that was a good lesson to have. And the second conversation was with my sister once during my crazy scaling stage where I was plugging in numbers in my business model and she asked me, you know, how’s it going? And I said, oh, I’ve made quite a conservative projection and it does not feel so exciting. And she said, oh, really? Okay. Doesn’t matter. And then the next day I went to her and I said, oh, I’m so excited. She said, what happened? I said, I just changed my projections a little bit and made them less conservative and actually, like, this is amazing, you know?

[00:35:37] Sadaf: And she’s like, wow, what are you going to do with all this money, you know? And then I came up with something really simple, like I was like I would love to get lots of massages. And she said, that doesn’t cost that much money. And I realized you’re right. Why am I doing all this? It’s the things that I want to be doing. I can do that now. So it was that realization of the world conditions us into a lot of ego driven goals. And I feel like we think that that’s what we should be doing if we can, because somehow that’s the measure of success. But actually, if I think about, okay, what’s the money I have, where do I want to spend it? I will still, you know, want to get value. I still want to, you know, the things that I actually need. If I break them down, I’m like, actually, this is a way I can do everything that I want to do and more. And so that’s really what I should, you know, break it down to and then work around versus just kind of success as a kind of trajectory of just monetary growth, which is, of course, part of it. Because if you don’t have enough money, you’re going to want to make more money. But I think it’s the whole kind of work, play, love, health that has to come into at least it does for my ideal life.

[00:36:50] Joseph: I feel like there’s such a default assumption that one’s salary must go up with every subsequent move, or that you must be earning more. You must be scaling. And I remember when I started my business, I actually, like, felt really uncomfortable with my salary because it was significantly lower initially, at least than my corporate salary. And I remember I was talking with my friend Hitesh and I was talking to him about this and he just said, look, are you able to do the things that you want to do? When I thought about it, I thought, you know what? Yeah. Like I’m not not doing anything because of finances. I’m still able to do the things I want to do. But I think we sometimes almost like glorify money. I’m not saying that people don’t need money, but I think that beyond a certain level, that incremental benefit is sometimes not as great as you think it is. And so. So, yeah, but money is an interesting topic to think about. I would love to finish up by just asking you a couple questions about some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, set off of your very interesting career journey, and then finish up with a couple of business school questions for you. If you had to give yourself any advice to your younger self as it relates to navigating career pivots, what might that be?

[00:38:06] Sadaf: The first thing I would say is In anything you want to do. There are experts that exists and people who are already doing it. And the more you can get closer to speaking to those people who are maybe doing the ideal thing you’re doing, or pay for advice like people like you. Joseph, I wish I had met you then to, you know, get the help to transition because I think it feels hard on your own. And I feel like all the support you can get in that process, I think, is worth it, because it’s hard, even with the support, you know, you still have to make things happen. And the second thing that I would encourage other people to do who are thinking about transitioning in any way is the action part. I think people live. We all live too much in our heads. Pros and cons and evaluating. And I think that if you take little action towards whatever thing you think, maybe I should test it out. I think investing to test is the best thing that gives you clarity, that just analysis alone will never give you so small step in the right direction and the options get clearer and the path emerges. You sort of have to just act in that direction first.

[00:39:18] Joseph: And having been through this career change journey, what’s one thing that you have learned about yourself along the way?

[00:39:26] Sadaf: I think I’ve learned that I can do anything I set my mind to doing. And I think I have to choose wisely because once I have decided this is what I’m going to do, then I’m going to do it.

[00:39:40] Joseph: Final question here for you before I hit you with a couple lightning round questions around business school. But when you look back on your career change, is there anything that you wished you had known about changing careers that you now know.

[00:39:53] Sadaf: That is going to be okay? There’s a fear of the unknown. And actually, looking back, each step was me seeking out something that was calling to me and getting me closer to the life I wanted to live. So all the kind of anxiety around should I or shouldn’t I? How would I just do it?

[00:40:15] Joseph: I can’t let you go without asking you a couple questions about your area of expertise, which is around getting into business school and thinking about going to business school. I would love to hear your perspectives on how somebody can think through whether or not they should go to business school. Are there a couple of things that or a couple triggers that you feel should prompt somebody into thinking that, hey, now might be a good time to think about going to business school.

[00:40:42] Sadaf: If you in your education before that point in time, you feel like maybe you didn’t go to the best school that you could have, or you feel like you could study something else that you didn’t know at the time weren’t offered at the time. I think it’s a great way of getting that kind of stamp on your CV, and for you to really explore so many wider topics and read so many inspiring people who then become your network and help you navigate life for the years beyond business school. And so I think it makes sense to make that investment in yourself. I feel like a lot of times people again measure it with success, which is typically like your job straight after business school. And of course, that’s an important aspect, but I feel so much of the benefit is for years to come. It’s the life that you lead with like minded people who are inspiring you and who are helping you problem solve whatever you are trying to do in your life, be it personal or business. And I think that’s a huge addition to your quality of life.

[00:41:46] Joseph: I also know that you mentioned you only applied to Insead for business school. Coincidentally, I also when I was applying to business school, I only applied to one business school, which was the University of Michigan, where I eventually did my MBA. How should somebody think about like the number of schools to apply to? Now, you and I are extreme cases where we only apply to one. I suppose there’s another extreme where you’re applying to hundreds or whatever. I know this must vary on a case by case basis, but how do you think somebody should think about how many schools to apply to, especially in the context of somebody perhaps being a busy professional like you were when you applied to business school?

[00:42:24] Sadaf: Three is a good number, 3 to 5 if you want to have some kind of backup. But I would rather focus your energy and make the best three applications that you can do and get into all three. Ideally, then hedge your bets with more, because I don’t think applying to more increases your chances. I think it’s about being very targeted, understanding the uniqueness of that business school, understanding the story that you have and what you offer, and then making that match obvious to them. And I think that takes time. And so if you’re going to try to do that with too many, you’re probably not going to do a good job. So it’s worth Are doing more effort for fewer ones and highlighting just how important they are to you and how much of a match you are for them.

[00:43:12] Joseph: And any common mistakes that you see amongst applicants who are trying to get into business school that you tend to notice come up time and time again that people should consider or try to avoid.

[00:43:23] Sadaf: Yes, so many, but I would say be as specific as possible. I think when people are trying to write in, you know, beautiful words and they often kind of miss the point. And it’s very important to zero in on the content. And even though you’re going to business school to open your options, you need to have done the work before, perhaps with someone to understand exactly what your career trajectory could look like, what you’re aiming for and know, kind of the company you might want to work for, the kind of work you want to do, the geography you want to be in, be very self aware of yourself. And again, the more specifics you can put in there, the more it shows that you are truly knowledgeable and will make the most of the experience.

[00:44:07] Joseph: Well, speaking of getting the right help from the right person, I know this is one of your areas of expertise. Can you just finish up by telling us just a couple of the key services that you provide to prospective applicants, and where people can go to learn more about the work that you do?

[00:44:23] Sadaf: Sure. So I work with candidates through the whole process, from figuring out which universities to apply to which course, understanding what is amazing in their story. A lot of times people are unaware of between all the things they’ve done, which would be most exciting for this university, and then doing the CV, the essays, the interviews, you know, choosing between offers, applying for scholarships, the whole round. And as part of that, when I find candidates who don’t have relevant work experience, for instance, and they need an internship on their CV, or they need to get to a particular type of promotion or work for their CV to be ready for their next educational journey. I help with them sort of end to end with the process. And I do that by. All my years of experience in different industries, I think that gives me a maturity to. Applications and writing about careers in a way that reflects well on the candidates after we’ve had those conversations. And my website is lead early. And so if anybody wants to get in touch, just drop us a line.

[00:45:25] Joseph: Thank you so much, Sada, for first of all, talking to us about your very interesting career journey, the twists and the turns. How you made that transition from the corporate world into running lead early, and also just some of the tough questions that you’ve had to wrestle with and to get some clarity on yourself as you’ve tried to figure out what sort of business can work for you and the kind of life that you want to have. So I wish you the best with lead early, and I’m sure there are plenty of people out there who could benefit from working with someone like you. So it’s great that you’re offering this service to people out there. So thank you for all the work that you’re doing too. And thanks for coming on to the show.

[00:45:58] Sadaf: Thank you Joseph. It was my pleasure. I really enjoyed chatting to you.

Have you ever fallen out of love with your job, even one you initially enjoyed? All of our careers go through ups and downs, and sometimes, we go on much-needed detours to clarify who we are and what we want our professional experiences to be.

On Career Relaunch® podcast episode 105, Sally Chamley shares her journey of professional reinvention, going from a primary school teacher to a business school program coordinator. She shares the emotional challenges of leaving a beloved teaching career behind, the dynamics the transitioning into a new sector, and developing new skills along the way.

We discuss how our work environments can have a huge impact on career satisfaction and the importance of recognizing when your job no longer aligns with your true self. During the Mental Fuel® segment, I also share practical advice about how to figure out if your job still aligns with who you are and who you want to be.

For this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I’d challenge you to take a moment to assess your current professional situation. Find a few minutes to consider how energized you feel by your work. Consider how happy you are with who you are. Decide whether you still feel like yourself.

Take stock of where things stand right now. Consider whether your responses are satisfactory to you. If they are, great, you’re in good shape. But if your responses leave you feeling like you’re in the wrong place at the wrong time in your professional journey right now, consider exploring what else is out there.

00:00:00 Overview

Sally Chamley, originally from a Ohakune, New Zealand. After completing her Master’s degree at the Victoria University of Wellington, she spent six rewarding years as a primary school teacher. She eventually moved to London, inspired by the city’s opportunities and eager to expand her horizons. She initially continued teaching, but soon felt the pull to explore something else. Since 2024, she’s been working as a Programme Coordinator in the Finance suite at Imperial College Business School, where we first crossed paths.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!

Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles.

Try Vista Social out for free right now at careerrelaunch.net/vista.

03:05 Sally’s Current Role at Imperial Business School

[00:02:53] Sally: Morning. Thank you so much for having me.

[00:02:56] Joseph: Well, let’s just start by talking about what’s happening in your world right now. What have you been focused on recently in your work and your life?

Sally’s Current Role at Imperial Business School

[00:03:05] Sally: So I’m currently working at Imperial Business School in the finance suite. I’m a program coordinator for the risk. management and financial engineering master’s program. So I have 170 students and I’m essentially the logistical expert for that master’s program. I look after those students and guide them through their degrees.

I liaise with the module leaders and the teaching assistants and just make sure that all the classes are running smoothly, that students have guidance on their careers and that they’re getting their grades and their assignments all running smoothly.

[00:03:40] Joseph: I guess we should say that we’re recording this toward the end of 2024 and so you’ve been in your role for a few months.

How have things been going for you in terms of just your day-to-day life? How are you enjoying the role?

[00:03:55] Sally: Yeah, really enjoying it. Imperial is such a great place to be working. I’m just constantly surrounded by real critical thinkers who are just developing their fields. It’s a really fast paced job with different times of the year creating different types of work and learning.

We welcomed our new cohort of students in September. So that was full of first week of uni and different welcome days and team-building activities. So it’s been really special to bring on a new group of students. They’re currently in the autumn term and starting to get ready for exams. So you’re really into the workload at the moment and really busy with that.

So it’s just constantly changing depending on the time of the year and what’s happening for those students.

Personal Life and Travel

[00:04:39] Joseph: What about you personally right now in your life that you’re devoting your energies to outside of work when you can find the time for it?

[00:04:48] Sally: Well, I’m over in London and here for such a short amount of time, a couple of years.

So travel is so big on the list. It’s how many countries can I hit before I have to go home? I’m off to Ireland next weekend. So really looking forward to that and just keep adding holidays.

[00:05:05] Joseph: You haven’t always been a program coordinator at Imperial College Business School, Sally, and I should probably say upfront that you and I actually first crossed paths a few months ago.

Because your team invited me to speak at a welcome event for your incoming students and we were chatting before I went up on stage and that’s when I first learned that before you joined Imperial, you used to be a primary school teacher.

Sally’s Teaching Journey

[00:05:28] Joseph: I want to hear all about that and go back to that chapter in your career.

But before we talk about your time as a teacher, can you tell me a little bit about where you’re from? You mentioned home there. And also where you grew up.

[00:05:40] Sally: I’m from New Zealand. I’m from a little town called Ohakune, which is in the middle of the North Island. Small town, 900 people of permanent residents there.

And I wanted to be a teacher. I went to university to be a teacher. I did my undergrad and my Master’s degree to become a teacher. And then I was a teacher in Wellington for 6 years. For generally 5 and 6 year olds.

[00:06:06] Joseph: It sounds like you very quickly decided you wanted to become a teacher.

Childhood and Inspiration to Teach

[00:06:10] Joseph: What do you remember about your childhood? And I’d be specifically interested to hear about what you used to enjoy doing as a child. Was teaching something that you I guess liked from a very early age?

[00:06:22] Sally: Yeah, absolutely. I had some fantastic teachers growing up and being in such a small community. They were teachers that I knew outside of school as well. You know, they were my parents’ friends. And so they just provided such great relationships and really were able to build you up, not only through your English and your maths, but also through who you were as a person and how it provides so many life skills for you.

And that was so inspiring as a child, knowing that. You can help me with my spelling, but also help me learn kindness and patience. And that’s something that I wanted to be able to do when I was growing up.

[00:06:58] Joseph: At what point did you feel like you officially began your journey toward becoming a teacher? Was it actually when you began your studies, or did it occur to you earlier on when you were a child that, hey, this is what I want to do professionally? I know I like what teachers do, but this is what I actually want to become.

[00:07:17] Sally: Probably in high school when you taking different subjects. I always took dance and being able to start leading different groups and being the person, I guess, in charge and empowering others became something really special.

And so I knew at that point I wanted to go into some sort of teaching and it wasn’t until. My last year of high school that it was okay. Actually, I want to do primary school teaching and focus on those early milestones for Children.

[00:07:48] Joseph: So you mentioned you studied to become a teacher. I, if I have this right, you studied education and psychology at Victoria University of Wellington.

[00:07:57] Sally: Correct.

[00:07:57] Joseph: Eventually did your Master’s in teaching and learning.

Juliet1>Challenges and Rewards of Teaching

[00:08:01] Joseph: Let’s talk a little bit about your time as a teacher. What year did you teach or was there a particular age group that you taught and how would you describe the makeup or the profile of the children in your class?

[00:08:12] Sally: I generally taught the younger years. So I had five and six year olds. They were in their first and second year of school in New Zealand. We have such a rich culture of Māori and Pasifika. Our culture and our indigenous history is so wound up into our education. So that for me is such a huge part of teaching, teaching the Māori language and culture and the Kaupapa within the classroom.

So I had amazing students. I had students from small communities that had rich family histories and just loved. Being at school, children who are five and six love everything. They love being at school. They love learning. And something that I loved about teaching was seeing those light bulb moments for students when they understand something, when they can do something by themselves.

And that was what helped make you want to go to school every day.

[00:09:03] Joseph: They got that age. Five to six is, is really special. As you may recall, Sally, I have a daughter named Juliet. And when you and I met, she was actually six at the time. She just recently turned seven. She’s now in year two of primary school.

And I’ve volunteered at some of her school events just to help out. Like I’ve spoken in one of her classrooms before I’ve joined her field trips. And boy, do I have a huge respect for what teachers do for our kids every single day. My sister was a teacher in the Bronx for several years. As I was dropping her off this morning at school, I was thinking about what sort of questions to ask you about your life as a teacher, but before I get to mine over breakfast this morning, I asked Juliet if she had a question that she would want to ask you, and if you could indulge me for a moment.

I’m just going to play this because I asked her, hey, if you could ask a teacher a question, what would it be? Because I’m about to speak to one. So I thought it might be fitting for a child who’s the same age as those kids you used to teach to ask the first question today. And then I’ll get to mine.

Managing a Classroom

[00:10:06] Juliet: My question is how do you stay on top of the class? And how do you get all the children to listen?

[00:10:12] Joseph: And maybe we could take those one at a time. How do you stay on top of all the work that you need to do for the class? Because obviously you’re teaching and you’re managing the classroom all day. So how do you keep up with, I guess, like coursework planning and lesson planning?

[00:10:29] Sally: Teaching is not for the fainthearted. It’s a big job with lots of different areas to it. You’ve got your time when you’re in with the children, between nine and three, where you’re doing teaching. You’re running assessments. You’re working one on one and building relationships. And then outside of those nine to three hours, you are doing everything else.

You are planning all your lessons. You’re making resources. You’re attending staff meetings, team meetings. professional development, you’re meeting with parents, you’re creating the production, you’re working with the netball team, you have a hundred jobs as a teacher. And I guess you just have to manage your time really efficiently, understand that the different aspects of the day, you know, you fully commit to your in-classroom teaching during nine to three, and what can I get done before nine o’clock, what can I get done?

After three o’clock, I would often be at school 7:30 to 5:30 to get work done. Coming in the weekends, I would bring work home with me. You’re busy, really busy, and you don’t have the break until the end of the academic year, where school finishes. You have about a week, you clear out your classroom, tie up all those loose things, and then you’ve got a couple of weeks off before you are there, two weeks before school starts getting ready to go again.

[00:11:51] Joseph: Yeah, it’s a lot. Because I know you manage the students there now at Imperial who eventually want to work in primarily the banking or the finance sector. And so we always talk about the long hours that professionals like bankers work, but actually teachers are working very long hours because you’re working at school.

And then after you come home from school, you got to plan for the next day at school. What about just keeping the class under control? I don’t think we talked about this, but like how many kids did you have? And how did you go about just maintaining order in the classroom day in and day out?

[00:12:24] Sally: It really depends on the age group that you teach, but I would have anywhere between 23 to 30 children in a class at a time.

And it would grow as the year went on, as students arrived to the school. But you put on your teaching persona, you have a very special teacher’s voice that only comes out when you’re in the classroom, you’ve got your teacher look that we all know. And I think something that comes down to it is building that relationship with the students and gaining their respect.

And that’s so key to being able to get anything to happen in the classroom. You know, those students have to trust you and have to respect you to be able to want to listen. So I think that’s really important, but you do need your teacher voice and your teacher eyes as well.

[00:13:10] Joseph: When I think about Juliet’s educational journey so far, as her parent observing her, I’ve seen how every single year of an educational journey is very formative, if you think about going all the way from preschool to year two, which is where she now is, and when I think about her time as a year one student, I feel like that year had an enormously awe inspiring.

positive impact on her development academically, socially, physically. And I don’t know if this is just what happens at that age or her own natural development, but I suspect it was due in no small part. to the fact she had an absolutely phenomenal teacher who was actually in her first year of teaching when Juliet had her.

So big shout out to Miss Hudson, whom we felt like really took the time to understand her, like her strengths, her struggles, and help her grow in a way. that aligned with who Juliet was and is. We felt like Miss Hudson really saw Juliet and made an effort to understand her and really every child in that class.

And even now, Juliet still talks about Miss Hudson as being one of her favorite teachers. And you mentioned respect there, Sally. It’s not just because Juliet liked her. She did like her, but it’s also because Juliet really respected her and thought that she was effective at teaching and managing the class.

And I saw this, I witnessed this firsthand when I saw her in action at the field trip, in front of class assemblies, and it just got me thinking, one of the things that really struck me about her year one teacher was that she managed to strike that balance between being liked and being respected by the children. How do you strike that balance? To what extent are those mutually exclusive? Or do they go hand-in-hand?

[00:14:58] Sally: It’s so lovely to hear that your daughter’s teacher takes such the time to build that relationship because I think, you know, that’s so core to teaching philosophies is building that relationship. And you’re only going to get the best out of the student if you know them well. And they feel like you know them and they feel like you care about them.

That’s the only way to get any teaching and learning done is actually by building that trust with them first. And a child knows. If you don’t like them, I think we see that in teaching when we can all think back to a teacher that we’ve had that hasn’t been particularly nice to you as a teacher that calls you out when actually it was your friend that was talking, you know, we can all think back to those kind of situations.

So for the most part, I would say teachers probably love all their students, but I think you’ve got to understand that you’re also the adult in the classroom and you really need to make sure that. As the adult, you are being kind to everyone and giving everyone a chance.

Misconceptions About Teaching

[00:16:03] Joseph: Did you feel like there were any misconceptions out there about teaching that you either feel exist or maybe you even had yourself about what life is like as a teacher?

[00:16:17] Sally: Absolutely. I think the first thing that people say to you when you say, Oh, I’m a teacher, they go, Oh, great. Easy. You babysit nine to three, and then you have so many holidays. That’s how teachers are seen. You’ve just got lots and lots of holidays. So that’s always a bit of a hard pill to swallow because you know how hard you work, and you know how hard the teaching community works, and you’re not often seen.

As a professional, the skills that it takes to be a teacher is absolutely incredible. You’re building the milestones for future generations. And so that’s always quite hard to not be looked upon in that light from peers, from the government, from anyone around you. So that’s something that I think all teachers probably face.

[00:17:04] Joseph: Why do you think that is, Sally? Why do you think that the professionals out there who were kind of entrusting our children with day in and day out are not perceived in the same way as the types of people that you cross paths with these days, who are more like people who go work in corporate offices, people who work on Canary Wharf. What do you attribute that discrepancy in perception to?

[00:17:28] Sally: Sometimes I wonder that because everybody’s been to school. Everyone knows how school works. Everyone has been a student in school for so many years and seen how. school looked for them and just assume that it’s easy. You know, they were at school, so why can’t they be the teacher?

It must be really easy to do. Sometimes I wonder that, especially when you hear from parents and they give you advice about, oh, well, we used to do it like this at school. Maybe you should do this. Have you tried this? And you’re sitting there going, actually, I’ve been to university for four years to learn how to do this.

I’m constantly in professional development, learning new skills and how to teach this. Just because you did this one subject at school doesn’t mean that you have all the knowledge, you know, I’m working my best here

[00:18:17] Joseph: before we talk about your transition to the UK. I did have one more question about your teaching, at least as a full time teacher, before we talk about your time as a supply teacher in the UK, you mentioned parents there.

Is there anything in particular that you wished parents would understand about teachers? When they’re dropping off their kid in the morning, when they’re picking them up after school, when they’re coming to speak with you at parent teacher conferences, just anything out there that you kind of wished parents would understand a little bit better about teaching and what you’re doing with their children.

[00:18:48] Sally: It’s hard because I understand where parents come from, you know, it’s their child, it’s their pride and joy. So they want absolutely the best for them. And I guess I would love for parents to know that I want that as well, that I am looking out for their child. I want the absolute best for them as well.

And anything I’m doing, I’m trying to support that child. Anything that they’re struggling with, I’m doing my absolute best to support them through it. Yes, I might have 30 children in the class, but I care about every single one of them as much as the other.

[00:19:20] Joseph: Just before we get to the transition, how would you describe this period of your teaching experience?

So you spent about six years working full time as a teacher at Newlands Primary School. How did you find it? To what extent did you enjoy it or not? enjoy it. How would you describe your overall experience up until this point?

[00:19:37] Sally: I loved it. I had a great time teaching at Newlands. I feel like I went through a couple of different stages while I was there.

My first couple of years as a beginner teacher were full of learning and trial and error and spending all these years at university and finally being able to be the teacher. So it’s so exciting to have your own classroom and your own children. And then we went through the COVID years, and as with everyone in the world, the impact was absolutely huge.

And the, the fallout from COVID, we were seeing such different children, you know, really different cohort with, you know, higher emotional needs, higher behavioral needs, struggling with anxiety and having to share the attention of teachers. missing out on some of those crucial years where early interventions can happen.

So that felt like a very different type of teaching and period of schooling as well. And then after the fallout of COVID, it was just so different. So it feels like there were really great bits and there were harder bits, but overall, I did enjoy my teaching journey in New Zealand.

[00:20:50] Joseph: So it sounds like things were going.

Fine for you there. I know there were a lot of challenges with COVID and what that brought, but overall you enjoyed the nature of teaching. What triggered you to move to the UK all the way from New Zealand?

[00:21:05] Sally: Moving to the UK or anywhere in the world is almost a rite of passage in New Zealand. We call it our OEL overseas experience.

And because New Zealand is just so far away from everything, it’s something that so many people do.

Moving to London

[00:21:18] Sally: All my friends have done it, both my parents have done it. So you get your two, three year visa, you pack your bags and you move to London. It’s just something that everyone does. You, you know, live the London life and you travel That’s what we’re here for.

You know, New Zealand, it’s, if I got on a plane now, it would take me 30 plus hours to get home. So, you know, our closest other country is maybe three hours to Melbourne. So being able to pop to Spain for the weekend is absolutely incredible. So, you know, the travel, learning about different cultures and history is really amazing while being over here.

Starting a Teaching Career in the UK

[00:21:57] Joseph: And how did things transpire for you professionally once you got to the UK?

[00:22:01] Sally: So, arrived in the UK, and after a couple of months of travel, I settled in London, and there’s always teaching work. You know, we are always having teaching shortages. So, I quite quickly became a supply teacher from September last year, so the start of the academic year, and quite quickly I was getting work.

I think with the first couple of weeks of school, I was working three days a week, but by week three of the academic year, I was getting five days a week and I would get a call in the morning. This is the school. This is the age group. Can you go? And you would get on the train and head anywhere.

[00:22:38] Joseph: Wow. Okay.

Challenges of Being a Supply Teacher

[00:22:40] Joseph: And so also known as substitute teachers in some countries, what are the main differences? Would you say between being a supply teacher compared to being a full-time teacher with a dedicated classroom of kids?

[00:22:52] Sally: They are huge. The difference is absolutely huge. Being a supply teacher, you get the worst out of the children. You don’t have that relationship with them. So you don’t know. what works for them, what doesn’t work for them, how far you can and can’t push. They don’t trust you. You’re a stranger that’s turned up. So you’ve got to be really on. Your behavior management has to be top tier. You’re working through a plan that possibly a teacher has left you. Sometimes there’s no plan. So. You’re on all day long. You’re making decisions all day long.

[00:23:27] Joseph: Wow. That sounds so stressful. So you’re telling me sometimes you’ll just show up in the classroom and you just go for those, whatever, six, seven hours and just try to keep the place from falling apart. Okay. Wow.

[00:23:39] Sally: And there would have been days that I would turn up two minutes before class started and you’re thrown into a year six classroom and they’re going here, you need to teach this. And I’ve taught five year olds for a really long time. So all of a sudden I’ve gotta relearn how to do long division before I teach it to the students . So you’re often found in those kind of situations as well, having to relearn something before you teach it.

Diverse Teaching Experiences

[00:24:01] Joseph: You mentioned the type of school that you worked at in New Zealand, which was. I guess a smaller, more tighter knit community where you’re seeing the same people and kids every day. What were the types of schools you were working at while you were a supply teacher? Like could you give a sampling of the range of schools in the UK or London that you were assigned to?

[00:24:20] Sally: I probably taught at about 30 different schools during my time as a supply teacher. I taught at schools right down by Heathrow airport where I walked through a paddock to get to the school. I taught in schools in the middle of Soho where walking past. You wouldn’t even know that it was a school because it’s in amongst all the other businesses.

I taught reception, you know, three and four, five year olds. And I taught up to year eight in schools that had, you know, the high school students attached to the schools as well. So I taught in a huge range of schools, really different demographics and backgrounds. Some schools were You had nicer, lighter, easier days and some days were hard and there were times that I would go, okay, for my own well-being, I will not go back to that school again.

[00:25:12] Joseph: Wow.

[00:25:13] Sally: Yeah. I think if I teach is really hard, it’s very humbling. You know, I thought I was a great teacher with great behavior management, but. You’re really challenged by being a supply teacher.

[00:25:26] Joseph: You mentioned that in New Zealand, you really loved the teaching. You mentioned here, you’re facing quite a different circumstance where you’re dealing with kids you don’t know necessarily, as you mentioned, you’re getting the worst out of children. How would you describe your experience as a teacher at this stage in your career?

[00:25:43] Sally: First of all, it was probably the best thing I could have ever done for my Professional development, being at so many different schools, teaching so many different types of children in so many different subjects that I’d never taught before, was fantastic for my own development in my career, but it was hard, you know, something that’s so core to my teaching philosophies is that building of relationships.

And so being in a different school every single day, I wasn’t able. To build those relationships and build that trust with students and work to get the best out of them. So I found that really hard.

[00:26:17] Joseph: One of the things that we sometimes talk about on this show is the impact that your job can have on you, both in terms of your physical and emotional well being.

Did you find that your experience at work was affecting you outside of work in any way?

[00:26:33] Sally: I began to not enjoy my Monday to Friday, I wasn’t enjoying my teaching. I felt like I was turning into a teacher that I didn’t recognize. And, you know, I wasn’t building those relationships. I wasn’t doing the things that I loved when I was teaching back home.

And so the weekends became too short. Sunday nights. You know, I started to feel a bit of anxiety. Oh, I’ve got to go to school on Monday. What kind of day am, am I in for? I struggled with the behaviour management. I found it to be quite arbitrary and quite punitive and I struggled with that at my core that I, You know, I saw lots of teachers yelling at students and that didn’t sit right with me.

And so I struggled with that as well. And that affected my love and my want to be in the classroom.

[00:27:31] Joseph: Yeah, it’s very interesting, Sally, because sometimes I’ll hear from people in their professional lives that they’re doing work that they no longer buy into. They’re being asked to do things or carry out or execute certain actions or plans that they either don’t believe in, or they don’t agree with. And I know that that’s a part of, I guess, every job to some extent, you got to do a little bit of that.

But at what point did you feel like this was getting to a place where it wasn’t just something you didn’t like, but actually something that you felt you wanted to walk away from?

[00:28:05] Sally: The start of the new year? When I got to January 2024 and, you know, I’d moved over here, I’d done a couple of months of travel. I’d found a flat and life was still exciting. Whereas I got to January and it was like, oh, this is going to be me for the entire duration of while I’m living in London. I’m not enjoying it. How am I going to see out the next two years of being here when I’m not enjoying my Monday to Friday? I kept teaching for another two months, but I think that was when it really set in that I don’t know if I can keep doing this because I’m just not enjoying my life over here.

Transitioning Out of Teaching

[00:28:45] Joseph: Let’s talk a little bit about your transition out of teaching then. What did you do when you realized that? What steps did you then realize you needed to take?

[00:28:53] Sally: I made contact with a recruitment agency and, you know, I started to think, oh, what other things could I do? Maybe I need to update my CV and look into a different world.

And so I went to this recruitment agency Australasian and just began to have a bit of a conversation with some of the coordinators there about other things could be out there for me, what skills could be transferable. And at that point, I had to put together a CV and change it from a teaching CV to a professional CV where no one cares how I teach my literacy program and, you know, starting to think, can I actually do anything else?

And that’s when the confidence definitely took a dip that I only know how to do one thing. Can I actually do anything else? So that came up when I was starting to have to change over my CV. And then I was put forward for a temp role at Imperial and again, the confidence took a dip when I was practicing for my interview.

Do I know how to do anything else that isn’t teaching? Why am I leaving teaching when I’ve, I’ve got work? I know what I’m doing and I can do it. And so it was quite a scary time.

[00:30:09] Joseph: That confidence piece, Sally, I hear this a lot when people are making transitions because you’re going from what you Not only know, but you know, you can do reasonably well and to walk away from that and to kind of throw yourself into totally different industry.

Were there any particular things you did to bolster your confidence?

[00:30:29] Sally: It was changing the language that I used, you know, instead of saying that I had parent teacher interviews and I worked with parents and child psychologists and things like that. It was that I was working with stakeholders and I guess just learning what.

Did transfer over and that some of those things that I am confident with within teaching happen in a professional world as well and I guess learning for myself that because I can do it here I can also replicate it in another place and be confident about that.

[00:31:06] Joseph: As you began to go through this process of reworking your cv and the motions of explaining.

It sounds like you actually did enjoy your time at one point teaching back in New Zealand and being a teacher was something you’d wanted to do even as a child. Putting aside the practicalities of making this pivot, was there anything else that was particularly hard about the idea of moving away from school?

[00:31:36] Sally: I think transitioning from teaching brought on a process of grief that I guess I still face every now and then here, you know, teaching was something that I wanted to do, that my heart was set on, that I studied to do and I loved it. And it was almost a grieving process of falling out of love with teaching.

You know, it was something that I always wanted to do and I wasn’t feeling fulfilled and passionate by it anymore. And that was quite hard to have to face and. Sometimes, even though I’m loving working where I am now, I still think back to teaching and I still miss certain parts of it and still grieve certain parts of it.

So that’s been an ongoing process that I guess I wasn’t expecting.

[00:32:27] Joseph: I guess grief is something that’s an important part of walking away from anything. We can find ways to power through it and carry on with our day-to-day lives, but that grief doesn’t just go away. And it sounds like you came out of a really tough period of teaching and at the same time you once did and maybe even still do have a part of you that really loved it.

Especially when you think back to those earlier years. So feeling grief is understandable because it’s almost like you’re letting go of something that was once important to you and a part of not only your life, but who you were and still are today. And I think our past is something that. remains on all of our minds, even as we grow into another chapter in our careers and lives.

Speaking of which, how did you eventually land your full time role there at Imperial?

Landing a New Role at Imperial

[00:33:25] Sally: So I was hired as a six week temp to be a program coordinator while someone else was Of doing a secondment and so I started working at Imperial and it was a big role to learn. It was using things like Excel, which I wasn’t having to use teaching.

It was all of those kind of things. I was having to learn office life, the way that offices run, the way that you email, things like that were all very new to me. And so I worked there for about six weeks before. The job was possible to go permanent. And so at that point I had to reapply and re interview, and I felt better and worse about going for it then because I, you know, I’d built the confidence.

I’d done this job for six weeks. Surely I can do it permanently. I’ve learned all these skills, but it was also harder in the sense that now I, if I didn’t get the job, I knew what I was missing out on. And I. Knew what I had to go back to. I had to go back to that teaching life and my wellbeing of what it was while I was teaching.

So I wanted the permanent job. I was loving working at Imperial and I wanted to stay there.

Lessons Learned and Advice

[00:34:41] Joseph: The last thing I want to talk about before we wrap up here, Sally, or just a few of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. And I know that you were. Mentioning before some aspects around being concerned about your confidence, making the transition and knowing what you know now, what’s something that you’ve learned about yourself and the idea of being able to make a transition?

[00:35:06] Sally: I’ve definitely learned that. First of all, I can do it and that I need to be open to those things. I think as teachers, we put ourself in a little bubble that teaching is all we can do. But when I reflect on my teaching time now, and I think about all the skills that I learned as a teacher and how I use them every single day at my time at Imperial, you know, I learned that actually.

There were so many amazing things that I was able to do and that I’m only able to do in my job now because of my teaching background and actually those are the best things that I’ve been able to bring across that although I might have lacked the confidence initially by just opening my mind and saying, let’s dive in, let’s give it a try, life is so much better.

I’m enjoying my life in London now, I look forward to going to work, so you don’t know unless you try and I’m so glad that I did.

[00:36:01] Joseph: If you could share some advice with your younger self about your transition from New Zealand to the UK, or going from teaching to program management, what advice might you share with younger Sally?

[00:36:15] Sally: Take on any opportunity that comes your way. Say yes, because you never know what could come of it. There’s So many amazing things out there that you could be doing and you’ve got to jump in with two feet.

[00:36:27] Joseph: And the last question for you here. If somebody else out there is thinking about making a career transition or even making a major career change and they’re on the cusp of it, but kind of struggling to make that next move.

Is there something that you wished they would know about the process of transitions that you now know?

[00:36:45] Sally: Your skills that you have, you know, stepping back and looking at them and how actually they transfer into the world and to know that those skills are transferable, that you might feel like you’re pinholed into one position, but actually they can be just as useful in another role and you won’t know unless you try and if it doesn’t work, that’s fine.

You gave it a go and you can go back to what you were doing. But you know, it could absolutely change your life. So why not give it a try?

[00:37:14] Joseph: Thank you so much. Sally, for taking us through your time as a teacher and explaining your transition, not only geographically, but also professionally. I said this before, I’ll say it again. I think what teachers do out there is immeasurably invaluable to our children and the world. So as a parent myself, really appreciate the work that you have done for kids and also all the teachers out there, what they do for our children. So best of luck with your program management role there at Imperial.

I’m sure we’ll cross paths again in the near future, and I hope you have a good year ahead. Thanks for coming onto the show.

[00:37:51] Sally: Lovely. Thank you so much for having me.

Curiosity is something we’re all born with as humans. Most of us come into this world with an immense amount of curiosity. If you ever watch young children around a new set of toys, they’ll excitedly try them all out. Similarly, during the early stages of our careers, we’re thirsty to explore, absorb, and learn as much as we can on the job.

However, over time, that curiosity can get dampened and even shut down as a result of work pressures, life realities, or societal expectations around how we should be spending our professional time. Keeping your curiosity alive is one way to open new doors throughout your career.

In episode 104 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Laura McIntyre, a professional opera singer turned business change consultant at Deloitte, describes her journey of going from the world of performing arts to the corporate world of management consulting. She explains why she decided to walk away from singing, how she managed her transition while making ends meet, and what steps she took to eventually land her job at one of the world’s leading professional services firms.

After our chat, I’ll also share some thoughts on the importance of remaining curious in your career during the Mental Fuel® segment.

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked about dedicating a few minutes this week to just learning something entirely new that you find intriguing right now. You could explore an emerging technology affecting your industry. Or learn more about a skill that someone you admire possesses. Or listen to a podcast episode about a topic that you’re curious about.

What step will you take to channel your curiosity in your career?

00:00:00 Overview

Laura McIntyre is a business transformation consultant at Deloitte focused on connecting people with solutions and empowering them to achieve their personal and professional aspirations. Originally from Lithuania, Laura began her career as a professional opera singer performing in the UK, France, and other European countries.

In her spare time, Laura enjoys horseback riding🏇🏼 and working out at the gym💪🏼. You can follow Laura on Instagram and LinkedIn, and check out other insights she’s collecting around career transitions for her Path Changer initiative on Instagram and YouTube.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive.

Thanks to Stubble & Co for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast. Crafted for the modern urban professional, Stubble & Co combines premium British design and practical functionality, offering stylish, durable, and high-quality bags made from recycled materials, perfect for work and travels. Check out their full range of products at careerrelaunch.net/stubble.

Laura: [00:00:00] Most inventions or innovation has happened because of someone being curious. We never should underestimate curiosity. It’s one of the best things that you can have in your back pocket, and I think it’s going to serve anyone well.

Joseph: [00:00:16] Welcome to the Career Relaunch® podcast focused on helping you reinvent your career. My name is Joseph Liu, and I’m here to help you gain the clarity, confidence and courage to overcome the challenges of making changes to your career so you can do more meaningful work and enjoy your professional life. In each episode, I feature people who have stepped off the beaten path to reinvent their careers. We talk through their unique personal journeys, the challenges they overcame, and the lessons they learned along the way to help you understand what it takes to relaunch your own career. Today, my guest is going to share her story of going from an opera singer to a management consultant focused on business transformation. We’ll discuss the importance of keeping an open mind and the hidden upside of uncertain transitions afterwards. During today’s Mental Fuel®, I’ll talk about the role curiosity plays in uncovering career opportunities.

Joseph: [00:01:10] Curiosity is something we’re all born with as humans. Most of us come into this world with an immense amount of it. If you ever watch young children around a new set of toys, they’ll excitedly try them out. Similarly, during the earlier stages of our careers, we’re thirsty to explore, absorb, and learn as much as we can on the job. But over time, that curiosity can get dampened and even shut down because of work pressures, life realities, or societal expectations around how we should be spending our professional time. But keeping your curiosity alive is one way to open new doors throughout your career, and we’re going to talk more about this right now.

Joseph: [00:01:52] Today, I’m speaking with Laura McIntyre, a business transformation consultant focused on connecting people with solutions and empowering them to achieve their personal and professional aspirations. Originally from Lithuania, Lora began her career as a professional opera singer, performing in the UK, France and other European countries. After realizing her health and emotional well-being were taking a hit from the relentless pressures of performing, Lora decided to take a break from singing and explore some other career paths. She is now a consultant at Deloitte, one of the world’s leading professional services firms, where she focuses on human capital consulting, digital transformation and change management. Now, I first met Lora when she reached out to me on Instagram to discuss the topic of personal branding. We later met up in London to collaborate on one of her projects focused on career change, and we’ve stayed in touch since.

Joseph: [00:02:42] Coincidentally, my neighbor who lives right next door to us is actually a professional singer herself. But this conversation with Lora was really my first time getting a deeper, behind the scenes glimpse into what goes into professional opera singing. I think you’re really going to enjoy hearing how Laura managed to pull off her radical career change, going from performing in front of audiences to now working in the corporate world. You can get all the show notes from today’s conversation at Career Relaunch Net 104. Laura spoke with me from Kent, not too far from where I’m based myself here in the UK.

Joseph: [00:03:19] Okay, Laura, welcome to the Career Relaunch podcast. Great to see you again and welcome to the show.

Laura: [00:03:25] Thank you so much. I’m really glad to be here and happy to see you again.

Joseph: [00:03:29] I want to talk with you today, Laura, about your transition from opera singing to consulting, why you left that behind, and also your career transition. But I would love to just start and get a glimpse into what you’re focused on right now. Can you just tell me a little bit about what you’ve been devoting your energy to in your personal and professional life lately?

Laura: [00:03:51] In my professional life, I’ve been devoting my time and my energy to my career as a management consultant. So just working on different projects. Really enjoying it, experiencing, working with different teams. I work predominantly across the public sector. Really finding that interesting. Lots of very challenging situations that I have an opportunity to dive into and support my clients in. It’s a really diverse kind of portfolio of the work that I do. And yeah, I’m just finding it really fun at the moment and in my free time. I’ve recently started my gym journey, so I’m becoming an avid gym goer, so I’m devoting a lot of energy and time into that. And also I’m trying to keep up with my horse-riding skills as well.

Joseph: [00:04:39] Oh wow. Okay. What kind of horse-riding do you do exactly?

Laura: [00:04:43] I suppose it’s called just English riding.

Joseph: [00:04:47] Are you jumping over the hurdles? I don’t know the exact terminology.

Laura: [00:04:51] A little bit. I’m not quite there yet, but I’m taking some lessons and doing some kind of hacking out into the English countryside as well.

Joseph: [00:05:00] And on your LinkedIn profile, Laura, now, I think your jobs title says that you are a business change consultant at Deloitte, and I know that this term consultant and management consultant, it floats around out there. And it’s kind of this, to the outsider, a bit of a black box. Can you just share a snapshot of projects and clients you currently work with?

Laura: [00:05:23] I mean, this is actually a really difficult question because really no one knows what a consultant does, right? I believe even the consultants themselves sometimes don’t know what we do. But to keep it neat and short, I predominantly go in to help clients with any challenges related to people as their businesses or their organizations are going through some sort of transformation. So, for example, whether that would be a technology transformation, whether that would be a people-related, culture-related transformation, whether that would be a strategic transformation, whatever it is at the heart of every transformation, there are people. And my focus predominantly within management consultancy is kind of the human capital side of things. It’s kind of a term, I suppose. Used to talk about people as a resource and kind of having that people-centered, human-centered approach to transformation. And within that, one of my key interest areas is business change. Specifically in our organization, we tend to think about professionals in a kind of a T-shaped form, expertise on kind of a high level, broad library of various skills and knowledge. But then we are encouraged to have kind of that t letter going downwards into kind of one key area that you’re perhaps really passionate about, or maybe where you’re kind of greatest talent lies in. So that’s why on my LinkedIn profile I call myself a business change kind of specialist within Deloitte.

Joseph: [00:06:59] You haven’t always been a human capital consultant focused on business change and business transformation. At Deloitte, you were a professional opera singer. You performed in the UK, France and other European countries, I think for about seven years, if I have that correct. Before we get to that though, Laura, I’d love to just go back in time a little bit further. And can you just tell me a little bit about you personally? Where did you grow up and what can you remember being interested in as a kid?

Laura: [00:07:32] When I was growing up, music was always very close to our family. My mum, was a choir conductor for a while and then she transitioned into working in school as a music teacher. So I ended up going to a lot of her rehearsals, and music was always quite close to my heart. My dad was also a musician, kind of more towards the jazz side of things. So he was also a composer and played in a band. So I suppose music was always running in the family. And then from a very early age, I started playing some instruments and I ended up going to sort of like an after-school club, but like an after-school where you are taught various music subjects like music, history, solfeggio, as well as playing an instrument of your choice. And at the time, the instrument of choice was a piano, predominantly because there was a piano in the house already. So that became kind of the instrument of choice. So I did that for many, many years, pretty much all the way up to when I graduated from school.

Joseph: [00:08:40] You played piano?

Laura: [00:08:42] Yeah, I played piano for a while, and I sang in various kind of bits and bobs choirs and  ensembles in school as well. So to be honest, a lot of my childhood and my kind of young years were spent doing music.

Joseph: [00:08:59] And can you remind me, Laura, where you grew up?

Laura: [00:09:02] I grew up in Lithuania. I’m a girl from the coast, so I grew up in a city called Klaipėda, and that’s a port. So we were very close to the beach and wonderful forests. It’s a very beautiful part of the country.

Joseph: [00:09:19] I’m sorry I’m not that familiar with Lithuania just because I’ve never been there myself. Is music something that’s quite well embraced in the education system in Lithuania? Is it encouraged? Is it part of the typical academic curriculum there?

Laura: [00:09:36] At least back in my days, it was part of the general curriculum. You would have a music lesson where you would be encouraged to learn about different sorts of music composers, a little bit of music history, kind of that whole rounded individual type of thing. So not necessarily going too deep, but it has always been encouraged. And every school has or at least used to have various opportunities for children and young adults to get involved in various music activities, bands, orchestras, choirs kind of pursue that passion. The one thing that’s really good, or at least used to be, I keep saying, used to be because I feel like I’m so far removed from it right now. So I kind of really speak into the situation with 100% certainty. But we used to have music schools that were sort of after club, but they offered quite serious music activities for children and for young adults to pursue various instruments and some of the other things that are already mentioned that I was able to learn as well. And it was quite a serious form of education, very well recognized across the country. We used to have exams, I think twice a year, so it’s quite a serious approach to it. The wonderful thing about that, is that it’s government funded and parents don’t have to spend loads and loads of money, which enabled a lot of children from less privileged families to attend as well, because the fee was very, almost like symbolic fee. The majority of the costs were covered by the government. So there’s really an encouragement from the government to pursue these types of careers. Same with the universities. There are a lot of free spots or government-funded spots for talented individuals to apply for.

Joseph: [00:11:21] So it sounds like this was a pretty big part of your upbringing. At what point did you decide that, hey, I might want to do this professionally? Like, do you remember when that occurred to you that this could actually become a career for you?

Laura: [00:11:35] I kind of fell into it. I did a couple of competitions in my last two years in school. There were sort of singing competitions where I competed. I won a couple of awards, and a lot of the feedback was that my voice would be really suited for classical music and that I should really give it a go, so the feedback was really positive. I kind of enjoyed doing it. I didn’t really have another thing that I was really settled on pursuing as like a very serious career. So when I was graduating from school, I thought, well, why not? Let’s give it a go. So I applied to a university audition type of thing. I did that and I got the spot and I thought, well, great, let’s give it a go. And that’s where it all started.

Joseph: [00:12:26] And for somebody maybe who isn’t familiar with the different types of opera singing paths, was there a particular range and type of performance that you eventually ended up focusing on?

Laura: [00:12:37] So I think in the early years they avoided trying to put you in a box because when you’re still really young, your voice continues to form up until you’re probably about 25, I think. So it continually grows together with you and it matures. But throughout your journey, you start falling into your own kind of area of you could call it vocal expertise, but yes, it’s something to do with the range, the colour of your voice, kind of where the quality of your sound really lies. And at the time I was considered to be a mezzo-soprano, which is kind of the mid-range vocal kind of performance.

Joseph: [00:13:18] And what was your life like as a professional opera singer? Can you give a glimpse into the types of shows or performances that you recall being a part of?

Laura: [00:13:28] I think my early career was very much mixed with studying, so I was still kind of a full-time uni student doing all the music lessons and singing classes and exams, and at the same time I applied or auditioned for a couple of roles, and then the National Opera House in Lithuania, and I got the roles. So I was often kind of working and studying at the same time. So I had, I think maybe up to 5 or 6 shows a year. It wasn’t much, but it was just the right amount as kind of a starting singer and to be honest, all the way throughout my career, studying and working kind of always went hand in hand because I think in singing you can rarely walk away from kind of singing lessons. You continually require that improvement. It’s a little bit similar, I suppose, to sports. You always stay connected to your coach. You never really stop learning, you never really stop improving. It always has been connected. So after I did my undergrad studies in Lithuania, I then applied for a kind of. It’s called like a post-grad program in London. And that’s how I arrived here in the UK. So I did a couple of years of that in the Royal Academy of Music here in London. Some of the places that I used to perform the most was Opera Holland Park. They did a lot of kind of seasonal shows, so that was one of my very frequent places that I went to. I still had contracts back home in Lithuania, so I traveled between here and there. Then I spent a year in the National Opera Studio, which created lots of opportunities for me to perform with them on different stages in Leeds, and in London as well. And then I got a contract with Scottish Opera, and I spent about nine months living and working in Glasgow, while at the same time performing in France, as I had a small contract in France as well. So we traveled lots of cities and with one of the productions it was Vichy, Versailles, and Lyon.

Joseph: [00:15:39] How did things progress for you compared to maybe how you envisioned them transpiring for you? Like, if you think about the entry into the world of opera singing compared to the actual experience, was it what you expected? Was it different from what you expected? How would you describe your overall experience as an opera singer?

Laura: [00:15:59] Even though the world is so broad and there seems to be space for everyone, it’s quite a competitive space. It can be competitive in a good way, and someone perhaps critiques what you do. And that’s what the whole industry is built on, is on critiquing, reading reviews and someone critiquing your performance. Someone critiquing, not necessarily with bad intentions, but maybe they want to help you out. Maybe they want you to improve. And so I think very early on, I started noticing that it’s really difficult to separate what you do from what you are. And therefore, whenever someone critiques what you do, it really affects how you feel about who you are. And that, I guess, was the more tough side of that particular career. It has many positives, but it also has a few negatives, which I think I ignored for as long as I could. And then I suppose I had to come to a realization that perhaps I’m not necessarily the right type of person to enjoy this type of career.

Joseph: [00:17:05] Was there a particular moment when it dawned on you that you just had to make a change and that this was not sustainable for you?

Laura: [00:17:14] So one of the things that singers will often experience is something that comes with the job is, you know, sometimes you fall sick. Things happen to your voice. It becomes way more sensitive because you’re using it as an instrument. So it’s naturally way more sensitive. And I’ve noticed that when I stopped singing, I stopped being sick, which is miraculous. But I used to get colds all the time, and I kind of struggled with acid reflux as well. And perhaps I still get some of it now, but it’s almost like I don’t notice it anymore. Or maybe I get less of it as well because I’m not using my voice in that capacity. It’s not as demanding on my voice kind of day-to-day talking. So my last year was quite a difficult one. I fell into kind of this vicious cycle of you’re sick and then therefore you’re anxious because when you’re sick, you cannot perform. If you don’t perform, you lose money because you’re not paid. If you’re not paid for a long time, you can’t cover your bills. And they can also cancel your contracts because if you’ve been sick for a long time, the show must go on. It seems unfair, but it’s also really fair. It’s a business. They can’t just wait for you forever. So you kind of get into that cycle of you’re sick and therefore you’re anxious, but then also you’re sick because you’re anxious.

Laura: [00:18:35] So I found myself in this continuous loop. And I think there came a time when my voice was not doing very well. I was determined to push through, and that was one of the biggest mistakes I made because I continued pushing through and I think the anxiety really got out of hand. At one point I used to wake up, remember, in the middle of the night like 3 a.m., just to check if I still have a voice, because any moment it could be gone. And I felt really, really anxious, very, very stressed. Which obviously didn’t help my sickness either. So it only created more acid reflux, kind of more hardship and performance. And what started happening was that sometimes I started losing my voice during a performance then added the trauma of hundreds of people looking at you while you’re losing your voice. So all of these things started piling up, and I think I was really struggling to deal with it, like on a mental level. And I think at that point I decided I need to just take a break. So it wasn’t like I decided I need to change careers. I think at that point I understood that I have to step away from it, and it was a huge hit for pride because suddenly you feel like you failed.

Laura: [00:19:48] You failed at your own job, you failed as a performer, you failed as a singer. And you know the constant thoughts of what are other people going to say? And often people in the industry would say, well, you know, you failed because you didn’t have a good technique or, you know, you failed because of x, y, z. So everyone has an opinion to offer. And at that point in time, I decided I’m going to take a break. I’m going to take it slow, continue taking the lessons and just use this time to recover. What happened during that period was I very quickly realized that the recovery needed to happen, not in my voice. So there was nothing wrong with my voice. There was nothing wrong with my body. There was no physical issue. The issue was a mental issue. I think over that really stressful year, I built a lot of trauma in my head, which started really inhibiting kind of my singing, and I think I faced a choice at that point. How much time and how much of my life I’m willing to invest into this healing journey, because it’s not that difficult to heal from physical trauma. It’s much more difficult. It’s not necessarily much more difficult, but it’s less predictable. Healing from kind of mental trauma or like a psychological trauma.

Joseph: [00:21:18] Yeah, I think that’s what makes these sorts of transitions so unsettling because there’s not a clear start and end. What you just mentioned about your physical side. You kind of know when you’ve physically gotten better from an injury or something. But yeah, the psychological and emotional side of of making a transition or having come out of a really difficult situation is a lot less tangible. And so it’s it’s just kind of harder to wrestle with. And then that creates more anxiety.

Laura: [00:21:46] Exactly. It’s really difficult. I think anxiety is one of the most difficult things to recover from because you’re so invested in your own healing journey. You know, the stakes are high. You must recover from this, and that only creates more anxiety. So it’s almost like you have to completely walk away from it in order to completely heal. Because if you keep on pushing yourself with the pressure of I must heal from this, it just doesn’t work that way. Or at least it didn’t work that way for me. So what I did, was I stepped away from it all and then found myself in a funny predicament of having cancelled all my contracts. I had no income.

Joseph: [00:22:24] Well, that’d be really interesting to talk about that now, Laura, this transition of yours. So it sounds like you need to take a step back. You’re not sure if it’s going to be a permanent step away, or just kind of a momentary pause. London is not. Or the UK in general is not a cheap place to live, so obviously you had to make ends meet. What did you do? Like what kind of jobs did you apply to? And I’d also be curious what sort of roles you took on. Maybe like temporary jobs you had to take on to make ends meet.

Laura: [00:22:52] So during that time, I obviously thought, you know, I have to pay my bills, I need to find a job. So I opened all the, you know, what they call the websites with all the job opportunities. And I started scrolling. It was a really discouraging time as well, because all I had in my education, kind of in my little portfolio was music studies. I barely had any other work experience. I’ve only done music, which at the time seemed really not applicable to anything else. So what I started is my application journey applying to loads and loads of different jobs. I really was aiming low and when I say low, I mean where the requirements were very basic. So not necessarily that they’re bad jobs, but where the requirements are completely basic, like washing the dishes.

Joseph: [00:23:46] Oh wow.

Laura: [00:23:47] The only requirement you need to have is usually the ability to work in the UK. And I don’t even think they require anything else. They usually just say as long as you can stand and you’re physically fit to stand there all day and wash the dishes, we’re good. So I applied for jobs like that, catering, waitressing, jobs. So where the kind of the level of requirements for the entry-level was pretty basic because I really saw myself as someone who doesn’t have anything else to offer regardless. And I just thought, well, that’s going to be easy to get one. I just thought anyone could get this. I think I applied to close to maybe 80 jobs over the course of about four months. I was rejected by all of them.

Joseph: [00:24:31] Oh, wow.

Laura: [00:24:32] Either didn’t hear back or was rejected. And I think progressively my applications were just going down. Down to like just any kind of job will do. If you pay me, I’ll work.

Joseph: [00:24:44] So for 3 or 4 months here, you’re applying to whatever 80 jobs and you’re getting either no response or negative response, and oh wow. Okay. And like what was running through your head at that time? Were you thinking go back to opera? Or was that not . . .

Laura: [00:24:59] Well, that wasn’t an option either, because I wasn’t in a place to actually do anything with my voice either. I was really surprised and like, puzzled because I thought, I don’t know, why doesn’t anyone want me? And I thought, well, surely I can wash the dishes. And I remember I called my mum and she said, how is it going? And I said, well, it’s not going very well. I said I kept on either hearing negative responses or not hearing back at all. So basically nothing happened. My mom said something quite profound, quite unusual to what she would normally say as well. She said, you know, this is really strange. I think it’s because life is about to offer something very different to you, and it’s preventing you from getting anything else, because there is a plan in place and there’s a job for you that’s waiting for you. And it’s not any of these jobs. So it’s basically the life itself that is preventing you from getting it. And I thought, whoa, that’s a really strange thing for my mom to say. She doesn’t normally speak like that, but I think it encouraged me. And what happened then was that maybe a couple of weeks later, I ran into someone who I knew and they sort of asked, as usual, how is this singing going? And I said, well, it’s not going very well.

Laura: [00:26:29] I kind of paused everything there. And I’m actually now looking for any kind of job because I need to kind of sustain myself. And the person looked at me and he said, oh, well, I know someone who is looking for people like they have a business and they’re constantly looking for new people to join. And in my head, I thought, oh, business. I really don’t know anything about business. I’m definitely not a suitable candidate. But out of kind of politeness, I said, yes, of course, I’ll connect with them, I’ll reach out to them. And I did, and they told me about their business. They told me they have. They sent me a list of different roles that they have. I looked at all of them and I obviously thought, well, this is I can’t do any of this. I know nothing about business. I know nothing about any of these roles. The one thing I spotted was a graduate position.

Joseph: [00:27:22] Is this the customer service position?

Laura: [00:27:24] Yes. And I reached out back and I said, well, for a graduate position, what’s the time period for that graduate in terms of I graduated many, many years ago? Am I still, you know, could I still be a candidate? And the guy said, yes. Why not? And I said, okay, I did. And I said, does it matter where I graduated from? And they were like, no, it doesn’t matter. Oh, okay. Maybe it doesn’t matter though. And I applied and the position that I applied for was customer services because again, I thought, I don’t have much experience with any other things, but I do have experience with people. So I thought, that’s what I’m going to hang on to. And I applied and I got the job.

Joseph: [00:28:14] And how did that go for you? I think you spent a few years doing that. It sounds like you went from a place where you felt like you didn’t have, I guess, the formalized qualifications to take on that role. But when you actually got into the role, what was your experience there like?

Laura: [00:28:28] It was a really good experience, I think. I did not expect to enjoy it as much as I did, and that is one of the reasons why I never got back to singing. I just really enjoyed the whole corporate environment and client services was a very broad role. It offered a lot of variety, and lots of people contact. I enjoyed so much learning about business, what they do, kind of the whole corporate side of things. Really, really loved it. I think I did that for about a year, and then because it was a small organization, kind of almost like a startup, that was going through a lot of restructuring, and they kind of kept on changing their shape. So they kept moving me kind of around different roles. So I got to experience a lot. I was offered a role as an analyst, a data analyst. And I thought, well, that’s interesting, why not? And basically from starting from customer services. Associate moved my way up through data analysts, insight analyst into a consultant.

Joseph: [00:29:31] And then that takes us to the consulting chapter of your career, which is what I’m hoping to talk with you about now. You climb all the way up to becoming a strategy consultant, and then eventually you would make it to Deloitte. I was looking into the acceptance rates of applicants at Deloitte, and according to the Cambridge consultant, it’s about 4%. Now, I’m not sure how precise that figure is, but it’s very well known in the corporate world that landing a job at Deloitte or any of the big four professional firms, Deloitte or Ernst and Young or PwC or KPMG, it’s really competitive to get into these places. As someone who didn’t–at least before this latest role that you just described before that–didn’t have a formalized business background, how did you approach landing a job at Deloitte?

Laura: [00:30:17] Well, I’m surprised now too! I didn’t know these rates!

Laura: [00:30:20] Yeah. It’s competitive. You make me surprised now too!

Joseph: [00:30:23] Yeah, you made it.

Laura: [00:30:25] Oh my goodness. Feeding my imposter syndrome.

Joseph: [00:30:29] I work with a lot of business schools, and I know that consulting is one of the esteemed target industries that a lot of business students try to get into. There’s banking, there’s consulting. Those are two of the most attractive and also the most competitive. And so a lot of people don’t make it. And a lot of people wonder, how do you land a job at one of these big four firms or one of the big three firms? So yeah, I’m just curious how you did it.

Laura: [00:30:54] I think a lot of it also has to do with being at the right place at the right time. I think we cannot discredit that. I know that things right now are really, really tough within the industry. So it really depends on the time and the place. What’s the environment like? What’s the industry like? It’s not so much to do with what you bring. Sometimes it’s also being able to ride the tide. But basically what happened in my previous job, and I’m forever grateful to them for the opportunities that they provided me with. I had so many opportunities just to learn on the job, and I think what really helped is keeping that why not attitude. Some of the roles I was quite certain at the time, this is not going to be my forever role. I don’t think this is my thing, but I used that time to kind of take as much as I can from that role, and from the responsibilities that I was given. Some of them I did not thoroughly enjoy, but I think I tried to keep an attitude of what can I learn from this and kind of put in my little library of skills. One thing that did help was during Covid. While I always say while other people were baking bread and kind of everyone found.

Laura: [00:32:13] Everyone found their own thing . . .

Joseph: [00:32:14] I was not one those people . . .

Laura: [00:32:15] Lots of people were.

Laura: [00:32:16] And I have nothing against people who bake bread. I’m just really bad baker. That’s the true reason behind it. I decided that I also needed to do something, you know, with my time, even though I was still full-time working because our organization was working kind of in the digital space. So we were not really affected by the whole kind of work from home. What I did was I decided to do a little like a diploma. It’s not a university, it’s not a college. It’s not any of those. It’s just like a certification. But it’s a full-year course with lots of assignments and it’s still quite pretty in-depth. The topic that I chose was actually Human Resources, even though I did not necessarily have a desire to become a human resources specialist. But I kept that passion for people and business because I never had that true background in business. After reading kind of the brochure of that certificate, I really enjoyed what they were outlining. They were kind of really going on that human-centered approach to how to run an organization through people. And I just loved it. And I thought, why not? So that’s the thing that I did within Covid, which I think also helped me land the job at Deloitte because I was able to offer almost a niche expertise in addition to my more general consulting skills. I think the other thing that does help is if you know someone within the organization, it can really help you almost tailor not necessarily lie or pretend, but tailor your kind of focus of your application to what really matters to the organization as well. So I was kind of blessed to have some people on the inside who told me a little bit about the organization. They recommended the organization as a good organization to work for.

Joseph: [00:34:08] These are just.

Joseph: [00:34:08] People in your professional circle network. Okay.

Laura: [00:34:12] Yeah. So a couple of people in my network were in the organization. So that really helped because it really gave me an insight into the application process, understanding what the priorities for the business, and what can I speak into. And it really helped me to also then tailor my CV, tailor my application, and even tailor my interview approach to make sure that when I come in and I speak, they know that I understand their business, I understand their challenges, I understand their clients, I understand what they need, and I’m not coming in cold like I felt like one of their own in a way.

Joseph: [00:34:53] So it sounds like you investing the energy and the time into doing your side research, your side certification, and also just really customizing and tailoring your approach. It really sounds like that helped you stand out as a candidate.

Laura: [00:35:08] I suppose it sounds a bit of a cliche, you know, don’t go on an interview without having read about the organization, but I think you’d be surprised how many people don’t. It’s a surprising, shocking number as well. And I think that’s really the key. If you can go into that room and talk their language. Talk about the things that matter to them, kind of from the hiring manager all the way into kind of their current year priorities. That shows dedication. You’ve dedicated your time to research these things, that shows interest. You’ve shown interest in that organization. You can show expertise and what you know about clients, and then you can bring your own little niche expertise in something else that you do. And I think all of that together makes you quite attractive.

Joseph: [00:35:56] So it sounds like things are going well for you there at Deloitte. And one of the last things I was hoping we could talk about before we wrap up is just some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way of your career change journey. When you look back on your career change journey, Is there anything in particular that you wished you had known that you now know about what it takes to make a pivot successfully?

Laura: [00:36:22] I’m overall really happy with my transition, so I don’t think there’s anything that I’m regretting. So it’s probably not as strong of an emotion, but I really wish I would have known sooner that I’m capable of so much more than I give credit to myself for. I think it has been a really encouraging journey throughout, and I probably owe it to a lot of people walking alongside me, who continually kept giving me opportunities and opening doors for me because they believed in me when I didn’t believe in myself. So I think, number one, surrounding yourself with those people again sounds really cliché, but it’s so important. And then second thing, just believing in yourself and giving yourself more credit, I think is important. And I think the third thing would be I hear a lot of people saying, oh, I’m really not happy in my current job. I want to change, I want to do something else. And they just sort of sit and wait until kind of the penny drops and they’re going to figure out their next big move. Sometimes your pivot is not made out of one big move. Sometimes it’s made out of lots of little steps and moves, and sometimes you’re going to fall into things and that’s okay. Give it a go. Approach everything with the attitude of why not? Let’s just give it a go.

Joseph: [00:37:43] Was that a major adjustment for you, Laura? I know we didn’t really touch on this, but you go from being an opera singer in front of these. What I’m assuming is quite large audiences in this sort of performance space to then being in an office, kind of dressed up in office attire, working with clients, sometimes behind a laptop, kind of in these meeting rooms. Was that a hard adjustment to make, or did you find that you kind of just fell quite naturally into that?

Laura: [00:38:08] It wasn’t too difficult, but there were some things to get used to. Like, I think in the opera world you’re way more active. There’s less kind of sitting down and your work is really split into kind of bursts of energy. So you’ll rehearse a scene, you have a little bit of time to hang around while some other people are doing other things. So like your work is more segmented and it’s really stretched across kind of the day. It’s also much later in the day, so you don’t really start as early, but sometimes you do tend to finish really, really late. So that adjustment was something to get used to. So just being able to sit again from like 8 or 9 until five, it just reminded me of school.

Joseph: [00:38:54] Yeah.

Laura: [00:38:54] And at first, I think I really struggled to just keep my concentration going. I had like back issues as well. When I first started sitting for long periods, I wasn’t used to it, but these are kind of the only major, I suppose, adjustments. It wasn’t dramatic.

Joseph: [00:39:11] And having been through this career change, Laura, what’s one thing that you’ve learned about yourself?

Laura: [00:39:17] One thing I learned about myself is that curiosity is my superpower.

Joseph: [00:39:23] Yeah, it sounds like curiosity has really served you well in your career, from just the example you gave of not being able to answer maybe a client question, and then you going back and diving deeper into that, or you just allowing yourself to say yes to some of these opportunities when you weren’t quite sure how they were going to work out. So it does sound like that’s worked very well for you.

Laura: [00:39:44] It really has. And I’m always very encouraged to hear the stories from around the world that most inventions or innovations have happened because of someone being curious and kind of going against the usual and thinking, why not? Well, what if. And I think that’s a really encouraging. And I think we never should underestimate curiosity. It’s one of the best things that you can have in your back pocket, and I think it’s going to serve anyone well.

Joseph: [00:40:12] And one more question before we wrap up with one of your side projects. Do you still sing?

Laura: [00:40:18] I still do. Not in the same capacity. I don’t do opera anymore, but I kind of sing in my free time. I sing in a kind of my local church sort of every other Sunday. So I do have some opportunities for my creative outlet.

Joseph: [00:40:35] I do want to wrap up speaking of outlets with one of your side projects, can you tell me a little bit more about Path Changer, which is actually how you and I first met and something I know you’ve been working on, wherever you can somehow find the time to work on it.

Laura: [00:40:50] It’s been such a busy time. I haven’t had a chance to do much on it in the last couple of months, but it is kind of something that I call my soul project. One of the things that I’m quite passionate about, having gone through this career change journey myself is helping others. Not calling myself a career expert and not a career advisor. I’m not anything in that area. However, I really wanted to create something that would allow people to get a glimpse into various perspectives related to career change. Hopefully with the view that they start seeing that things are possible. Because I think one of the most frustrating things for me to see is when someone really feels boxed in and without options, for the same reasons that I felt boxed in. For that, I don’t have the right certificate. I don’t have the right degree. I don’t have the right background to try something new, or to apply for this position, or to have a different career to the one that I had before. So I tried to create something, almost like an interview form, where I interview various experts with viewpoints or expertise related to something that might be relevant to career change. And yeah, and hoping that people can find that content interesting and then ideally also connect with those experts if they want to take that conversation further.

Joseph: [00:42:17] Well, and I’ve seen some of those video clips myself and they’re very useful and very insightful. So I would encourage people to check those out. And speaking of which, if they do want to learn more about you, or if they want to check out some of the content you’ve been creating through your Path Changer initiative, where is the best place people can find you?

Laura: [00:42:35] So I think currently the best place to find me would be either on LinkedIn . . . so I’m Laura McIntyre on there. Or Instagram. So if you do have Instagram, @pathchangerofficial is the handle. And that’s where I’ll be sharing all things related to career change.

Joseph: [00:42:53] Okay. And we’ll be sure to include links to those profiles on our show notes. So thank you so much, Laura, for taking this time out of your busy schedule to tell us a little bit about your former life as an opera singer, your transition into the world of consulting, and also just the importance of being curious and open and how much that can really serve you in your career. So best of luck with your time there at Deloitte with Pat changer, and I also hope we can cross paths again soon.

Laura: [00:43:20] Yes. Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s been really a pleasure to speak to you again.

Joseph: [00:43:29] So I hope you enjoyed hearing Laura’s perspectives on prioritizing your mental health, the power of your professional network, and believing in yourself. Now it’s time to wrap up with today’s mental Fuel, where I’m going to pick up on this topic of how curiosity can play an important role in your career change journey.

Joseph: [00:43:50] Before we get to today’s Mental Fuel®, I wanted to thank Stubble & Co for supporting this episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast crafted for the modern urban professional. Stubble & Co combines premium British design and practical functionality, offering stylish, durable and high-quality bags made from recycled materials perfect for work and travels. After ordering one of their crossbody slings myself, I also appreciated how they use minimal packaging and give 1% of their annual sales to approved environmental nonprofits. Check out their full range of bags and accessories at CareerRelaunch.net/Stubble.

Joseph: [00:44:28] This is the part of the show called Mental Fuel®, where I finished the show with a brief personal story related to one of the topics we covered today, and wrap up with a simple challenge to help you move forward with your own career goals. So for today’s mental fuel, I wanted to pick up on something Laura mentioned about curiosity being her superpower. And when I think about curiosity in the context of career change, it’s really about embracing an open, inquisitive mindset where you’re more focused on learning, understanding, and exploring new ideas, skills, or perspectives, rather than getting too caught up with the outcome of those explorations.

Joseph: [00:45:06] And while I wouldn’t say that curiosity is my superpower per se, I’ve definitely seen how allowing myself to be curious about things has opened up professional doors that would have otherwise remained closed or undiscovered. I’ll just share a couple of concrete examples, the first of which opened up a new career opportunity, and the second related to discovering interesting people. Many years ago, after I graduated from college, I was living in Hawaii doing a financial services internship at a company there, and I used to take the same bus to work every morning, hopping on at a very specific time and seeing the same bus driver every single day. I lived in Waikiki, and that bus originated its journey from the bus stop right next door to my apartment. So when I hopped on board. Sometimes I’d be the only one there with the bus driver waiting to depart. Now, I wouldn’t call myself the most gregarious or chattiest person out there, but I would consider myself fairly friendly. So I’d chat with this bus driver every morning on my way to work, mostly to learn as much as I could about life there in Hawaii. Things to see, things to say or not say, and just the way of life there on the island. This guy’s name was Yama. He was originally from Samoa, and I do remember that he was always reading the newspaper at a time when people read newspapers before setting off, so we’d sit there in the bus and chat about things in the news before he drove off.

Joseph: [00:46:45] And we were chatting one day, and I was telling him about my confusion around what to do after I finished up that internship, whether I would head back to the US mainland or to stay there in Hawaii. And I wasn’t quite sure what to do next, and he mentioned something that really planted a seed in my mind that would kind of forever change the trajectory of my entire career. He asked me if I ever considered going into radio news journalism. He knew I’d liked talking about the news, said I had a decent radio voice, and just posed the question. To be honest, I hadn’t ever thought of going in that direction professionally. But a couple of weeks later, I found myself doing some informational interviewing with journalists there, one of whom eventually put me in touch with a guy running the Hawaii Bureau of National Public Radio there. And the next thing I know, I’m working there as a fill-in classical music host, volunteering and eventually getting a job there, anchoring a daily news program. And this all started with me just being open to having a conversation with someone who I never would have imagined could help me come up with an idea of where to take my career, and also just being open to learning more about journalism opportunities in general, and just to jump forward a couple of decades and give a more current example now as a podcast host, where the seeds of this work really date back to that first experience being on air there in Hawaii.

Joseph: [00:48:18] This entire show has emerged from my ongoing curiosity about how people navigate career changes. Sometimes listeners ask me how I find guests I feature on this show, and while there are people who apply to be guests, the vast majority of guests you hear on this show are just people I’ve informally crossed paths with, either professionally or personally. Just being curious about their stories is typically how I find most guests for this show. Now, because I’m a public speaker and I speak a lot professionally. I do plenty of talking myself, so in one-on-one conversations I tend to do more question asking than speaking myself. I try my best when I meet people in general, to ask them about them and how they ended up where they are today. Mostly because I’m just curious about it, and you’d be surprised once you probe a bit and give people some space to share their more personal stories. They do open up, and you very quickly come to realize a lot of people out there have gone through some sort of a major career or unexpected life change. So clearly I’ve seen curiosity play a role in my own career. Laura talked about how curiosity’s played a role in hers.

Joseph: [00:49:48] What about you? When was the last time you just allowed yourself to pursue a new skill simply because it intrigued you? When did you last explore a new potential career idea? By taking a course, talking with someone in that sector, or reading a book or article on the topic? Or when did you make the effort to reconnect with someone you once met in passing, whom you felt could just be a nice person to have in your life? Sometimes just allowing yourself to be open to a new idea, path, or person can plant the seeds to an entirely new chapter in your career and life. This takes me to a quote from Elizabeth Gilbert, author of eat, pray, love. Curiosity is the truth and the Way of Creative Living. Following that scavenger hunt of curiosity can lead you to amazing places. So my challenge to you is to dedicate a few minutes this week to just learning something entirely new that you find intriguing right now. You could, for example, explore an emerging technology affecting your industry, or learn more about a skill that someone you admire possesses, or listen to a podcast episode about a topic you’re curious about.

Joseph: [00:51:17] I’ve been doing a little bit of learning and exploration myself recently, delving deeper into the world of AI to figure out the role it might play in my own workflow, the careers of my clients, followers and audiences, and also broader society.I’ve actually just finished the book Co-Intelligence by Ethan Mollick, which I would highly recommend if you want to learn more about how to embrace and work with AI in your career and broader life, think about what step you’ll take to allow curiosity to play a greater role in your career.

Joseph: [00:51:49] If you want to share a step you’ve recently taken to explore something new in your career; have a question you want me to address on the show; or just want to share a story of career change with others, I’d love for you to leave me a voicemail with your thoughts at careerrelaunch.net/104, where you can also find a summary of my discussion with Laura and learn more about her. Again, that’s careerrelaunch.net/104.

Joseph: [00:52:13] If you’ve enjoyed today’s show, I’d really appreciate you leaving a positive review and rating on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. And be sure to hit that follow button so you can get the latest episodes of the show delivered right to your device. Thanks so much for being part of the Career Relaunch® community, and a special thanks again to Laura McIntyre for sharing her story with us today from Kent.

Joseph: [00:52:34] This episode was mixed by Liam MacKenzie. Today’s music was curated by Jonathan Renaldy Poll and the career relaunch theme song was written and performed by electrocardiogram. I’m Joseph Liu. Have a great final few weeks of the year and I’ll talk to you next time.

Have you ever felt a bit out of place in your current job? Do you ever feel more like an outsider than an insider at your company? Have you ever struggled to fit in at your workplace?

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenged listeners to find an anchor point that’s consistently served you well, kept you grounded, or just helped you feel more in control. Identify an activity, skillset, person, or place you can reconnect with regularly to create that sense of familiarity that serves as a source of comfort, confidence, and certainty as you face those professional and personal challenges around you.

00:00:00 Overview

Dorna Lakayan is an interior architect and furniture designer with Persian and Norwegian roots. With Studio Lakayan, she transforms houses into dream homes and brand identities into memorable venues worldwide. Her approach focuses on inhabitants being the center piece of a space, complementing habits and lifestyles through mindful space design and visual harmony. Her philosophy and approach center on the idea that “A good space creates space: to feel, to think, and to be you.

Be sure to check out her Lakayan Loves series where she shares her favorite icons in the world of architecture & design. Follow Dorna on Instagram and LinkedIn.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive.

BrandYourself offers simple tools and services to help control what people find when they Google you. To clean up, protect, and improve how you look online, visit BrandYourself.com and use promo code ‘RELAUNCH’ to get 50% off a Premium membership.

Joseph: I am looking forward to talking with you about a lot of your geographical transitions, and the ups and downs you’ve experienced along the way, your recent decision to start your own architectural firm. But I’d love to start by just first getting a snapshot of your life right now. What are you focused on both personally and also professionally at this moment?

Dorna: [02:55] For me, they are not really separated from each other. Maybe being a designer, I have always lived, eat, breathed design, sort of an attitude. My life is design and it’s really intersectionally going forward together. But my focus these days mostly is, of course, establishing my life here in the new country, new city, finding new friends, new colleagues, new collaborators. I’m figuring out what’s next.

Joseph: You haven’t always lived in Amsterdam. So, let’s start at the beginning and move forward from there. I’d like to actually go all the way back to your childhood when you grew up in Iran, which is where you’re from. What do you remember about your life in Iran as a child?

Dorna: [03:45] I think after coming to Europe, my biggest memory of Iran relates to the sun. It was a very sunny part of the world. Especially when you are a child, maybe you are more curious. You see more, you observe more. So I remember a lot of patterns, a lot of colors. We live in a part of the world where the sun is available. So a lot of architecture and a lot of things are built around it. The shadows. The concept of actually shadowed spaces and sunny spaces or light spaces. So there’s a lot of things about the architecture. Of course, I remember, but then, I came from a family where architecture was important or art was important. So maybe that’s why most of my memories are around it as well. Or maybe I was just curious as a child to become an architect, I don’t know.

Joseph: Were your parents also involved in some sort of design or architectural industry?

Dorna: [04:49] My dad is a civil engineer and my mom is an artist, or used to be. It was never a profession, but she was just into art. So she would paint and make a lot of things. As a child, I was a very preserved child. I wouldn’t show so much of my emotions. To help me to show more as a child, my mom taught me that I can create things and show things with creating stuff. I had ended up sewing, knitting, and all of those little things that a child can do. Painting, and writing cards and notes, and things like that. So that was my daily routine of creating.

Joseph: In most cases on this show, we would typically feature somebody who has a certain professional background and then they switch sectors and they maybe switch roles within a company. Now, in your case, you from a very early start, wanted to become an architect. At what point did you realize that and how did you know you wanted to become an architect?

Dorna: [05:44] Yeah, the thing is I didn’t have the title, so I didn’t know what I wanted to become is an architect. That was the whole. But I knew that I love to create and I love to do things within spaces. For many years, I had a title for myself. I called myself the psychologist of spaces. Because I really thought, or I still believe that, that you can somebody’s feelings, emotions, habits, a lot of things about how easy your life is by having good space. And then, as a child, I called myself a psychologist of space, of course.

But then, my best friend then was an architect. One evening, I saw a book in their home, which is the drawing of, or a picture of, the Frank Lloyd Wright’s waterfall house, the Fountain House. And then, when I saw that, this interaction between outside, inside was so interesting, and how the waterfall had gone under that building and all of these beautiful things. So I went to his father and said, “What should I do? What kind of profession should I have to be able to do this?” He said, “You need to be an architect.” That was the day I realized I needed to be an architect.

Joseph: For those people out there like me who have never been to Iran, how would you describe the overall professional scene in the city where you grew up?

Dorna: [07:23] When I left Iran, I was quite young. I was 24. So I can’t really say much about the professional scene because I worked only a few years there. But generally speaking, architecture and civil engineering, which are the dominant jobs in the field, are quite masculine. So you don’t see so many females on the — I didn’t. I don’t know, maybe now, it has changed. All I remember was that you needed some sort of support from somebody. But then, that can also come from the fact that I was very young. So I needed mentors and people who would help me. Generally, Iran is a country full of architecture. There is a big history and a very rich history about architecture in that part of the world, so you learn a lot. But it’s not practiced that way, of course, anymore.

Joseph: What ultimately led you to decide to leave Iran behind?

Dorna: [08:26] I don’t think you make this decision in Iran. You kind of grow with it, which is a kind of sad part of their story because it’s, according to me, one of the best places to be. Due to the whole situation in that part in the Middle East, with all the complications it has, I think as a child, if you have the ability to grow and learn and are curious enough to leave, you are kind of encouraged to do it from a very young age. That was the same for me.

I learned English when I was quite young. I started learning English at a very young age. And then, before you know it, when I felt like everything was settled and I’m now an architect and I can take care of myself and everything, it was time to be curious and leave. I cannot really say it was a decision made, but maybe it was, but it was also grown in me. It’s a very complicated thing to say. But generally speaking, comes out of curiosity to learn more and to see more. Because, obviously, I went to study. That’s how I left. The decision was not there if I was going back or not.

Joseph: What year was this?

Dorna: [09:36] 2010. That’s when I left the first time.

Joseph: This is not a political show. But, obviously, at the time, things were probably a bit unstable sanctions in place.

Dorna: [09:48] Yes.

Joseph: And so, I would imagine.

Dorna: [09:49] As a young person, of course, you have a future in front of you and you want to build and create, but you also know that things are not going to get better and the opportunities are not going to rise. I already see a lot of friends who are there. Imagine the inflation rate and all of these things are affecting your career, and your decisions, and all of that. So taking risks is harder. Hope, maybe; having a hopeful future is harder. In that sense, I think. Of course, I don’t regret that decision, but anyway, it’s your hometown. You have friends, and family, and memories, you speak the language. It’s a different thing.

Joseph: Just to switch gears here and talk about the next chapter of your career. Where did you go and how did you decide on where to go next?

Dorna: [10:43] First destination was Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. That really just happened. Because I actually had been admitted to study architecture in Oxford. That day that I was supposed to get my ticket, I couldn’t. Oxford just said, “Oh, you’re too late.” I was like, “Okay, now what?” I had a friend who knew a few people in Malaysia. He was just like, “Yeah, why not go to Malaysia and see how it is?” I’m like, “Sure, let’s do that.” And then, I went to Malaysia, Kuala Lumpur. I went to the school, talked to a few people, liked it there. I said, “Okay, I want to study more of architecture.” And then, I started actually interior architecture. And then, after that, I worked a little bit. I worked at the school. I worked at an American company in design. And then, while I was there, I decided that I didn’t want to stay there. It didn’t feel like a place for me to want to build my future, like to call home. That’s when I decided to move towards Europe and see what is Europe.

Joseph: Now, I know you just mentioned you just got to have a friend, and then you end up moving to Kuala Lumpur. Did you have the means to just pick up and just move to a new country? It seems like a big leap to make. I guess immigration wasn’t an issue for you going into Malaysia.

Dorna: [12:09] When I went to Malaysia, first of all, I was not thinking that I was immigrating.

Joseph: I see.

Dorna: [12:13] In my head, I was going on this street to see what was happening. And then, I ended up staying. I was not even a student at the time. I went there, and I went to school, and I liked the school, and I stayed. The whole thing. Generally speaking, I always have been told in my life that I’m a very brave person. Up until a few years ago, I kept saying, “No, what’s brave about me?” But I have started to realize, maybe I am brave or braver than I think.

Joseph: Yeah.

Dorna: [12:41] Now, it’s funny for me when I think about it. What was I thinking? Twenty-three-year-old, and then you just go somewhere and you are like, “Oh, this is cool. I want to learn. Oh, my God, look at these buildings.” Because being in Iran, of course, you have all of these historical sites, and old vernacular, and clay architecture, and colors, and everything. I was in Kuala Lumpur with skyscrapers, and new modern technologies. Architects from Australia, America, Europe. Everybody was in Kuala Lumpur building something. So it was really a new theme of architecture. I was like this little kid who was in a candy store. It’s like, “Oh my God, look at this, and look at that, and look at this.” It was fun.

Joseph: Before we talk about your next move, you mentioned that you didn’t quite see your future there. What was it about being there that led you to believe that you didn’t envision yourself being there long-term?

Dorna: [13:43] I think it was mostly about the fact that — maybe this is too extreme to say it this way, but I didn’t feel safe as a citizen. Funnily, for me, I know this is not an impression for a lot of people, Iran was safer and more convenient to be at. Of course, this can come from the fact that I was an immigrant. So it’s a different level. You look different. Whatever you do, you look different.

And then, of course, we all know being a woman, it’s also another minority, a little bit, in our business, which is architecture, real estate, things like that. I didn’t really see myself building what I envisioned because I think, especially at that time, I was seeing myself like I wanted to be a Frank Lloyd Wright. That’s how I started the whole journey and that was not happening there. I couldn’t see that. I still was lacking some sort of trust in my surroundings or some sort of trust in what I want to build. That was not there for me yet. That can also come from the fact that I was a junior in Malaysia. It’s like you just graduated architecture school. You are super young.

Joseph: Yeah, that’s interesting. I do think that sometimes in our careers, and I consider myself quite a logical left-brained individual. But sometimes, you can just kind of feel that nothing is really going to progress where you’re at. You can just kind of feel it. You can kind of tell that there’s not really a future for you in this location, or this organization, or this sector, and you have to do something about it. Otherwise, you’ll just stagnate.

Dorna: [15:27] Funnily, now, every day, I’m trying so hard to go back to that because I think the older I got, the more I saw, the more wisdom came, the more doubt in my instinct also came with it. And then, when you are young, your instincts are talking really loud and clear. You trust them and you go for it, and that’s what everybody calls “young and crazy.” But I really now hope I can become young and crazy every day in my life. That would be fantastic.

Joseph: Right. So speaking about another potentially young and crazy move, you decided to move to Europe.

Dorna: [16:07] Yeah.

Joseph: Where did you end up going and why did you choose that destination?

Dorna: [16:11] I went from Kuala Lumpur, the city of never-ending summer to Oslo, part of the world that is well known for its lack of sunlight. Oslo was practically to do my master’s. My destination was Europe. That I knew the way to come to Europe for me in my head was to do my master’s. The main focus was, of course, architecture and design.

Joseph: This was general design.

Dorna: [16:42] Yeah, general design, exactly. But, of course, within space. So that’s what I wanted to do. And then, I sent applications to a few universities, among which National Academy of the Arts in Oslo gave me admission. At the time, I had to choose, of course, between these universities when I got, because I got admission from a few. The question was, “Which is my destination?” I didn’t really choose it based on the geography, but based on the school.

I did some research and National Academy of Arts where I was admitted to do a Master in Design at the best workshops available in Europe. Me, coming from this background in architecture where I had all the theory in my pocket, could really benefit from being somewhere where I can actually be hands-on and create with my hands, not only with my brain. That opportunity was 100% available in Oslo. I took that chance and I went there, and I can say it was one of the best experiences. Those two years at that school, I did a lot of hands-on work, and I learned a lot about construction.

Joseph: So it sounds like from an educational standpoint, this was a really positive move in your life.

Dorna: [18:03] One hundred percent.

Joseph: How would you describe how this move felt compared to your move going from Iran to Malaysia? Was it the same? Is this one of those quite modular skills being able to make an international move? Was it easier? Was it harder? How did it compare?

Dorna: [18:22] Iran was different from Malaysia, and Malaysia was different from Norway. Every country has its own ups and downs, and difficulties and challenges. So I can’t really put that on scale. But definitely, it was scarier for me to this time move. One thing that was very apparent and immediately tangible was the difference in the culture.

I came from a culture that was very giving, very social, and very warm and open to a culture that was quite preserved, very colder than my hometown and things like that. It was a challenge to figure out what now or how. There are these unwritten rules, I said, or social aspects that you have to learn or social codes that you have to crack. That was a challenge.

Joseph: You’ve touched on this. I wouldn’t mind going a little deeper into this because I think it’s a realistic consideration when you’re moving countries. You’ve talked about being a minority, both first of all, as a female in a quite male-heavy industry, but also a minority in the sense of being a minority as an immigrant in Oslo.

I was looking up some stats on this, and I was actually surprised, because I’ve been to Oslo before, and I had expected the immigration figures to be lower, but immigrants makeup about 35% of Oslo’s population, give or take. As a comparison in London, which is where I’m based, it’s around the same. It’s around 38%. I would have expected a slightly larger difference. New York City, it’s about 36%. But at the same time, regardless of whether it’s 36 % or half or 10%, you still recognize that you’re an immigrant in a country and you feel that.

Dorna: [20:11] Yeah.

Joseph: How much did that play into your life there? Were there any issues or challenges you faced either personally or professionally?

Dorna: [20:18] I mean, 100%, there are issues and challenges. I mean, as I just said, like there’s this unwritten user manual that you need to know. Nobody gives that user manual to you at the airport. You just come in and you have to kind of crack the code yourself. It depends on how open you are to trying. That also takes a lot of courage.

One aspect, of course, is the social aspect of the life in the Nordics, how you’re going to make new friends. Nordic people generally are more preserved in letting people inside their inner circles. They are also more concerned about social interactions. It’s harder to walk in Oslo and say, “Hello. Good morning,” to any stranger than it is in anywhere else in the world. Those little things, especially for me, coming from a culture where you see your neighbor and say, “Hey, have a good day!” It was a different thing. It was really challenging. I might say, at times, depressing, I was not used to this. I was not used to hiding and not saying anything and pretending that I don’t see or things like that, in social context.

In a professional context, it even gets more challenging, especially after I graduated. Because at school, everybody spoke English and it was really an international community, and you could meet people. But then, I started looking for jobs. The first ad job I got was, “Maybe you should consider changing your name.” I’m like, “To do what?” Because you come out of your school and you think, “Oh, my skills matter.” But somebody is telling me, “No, your name matters.” Of course, this is on debating. Also, they are aware of the problem, and they are addressing it in different channels and media. Then I realized, “Oh, my God. I am an outsider.”

Joseph: Speaking of the professional world there then, what were you doing at the time and what sort of firm were you working for in the architectural sector there after you had graduated from the National Academy?

Dorna: [22:36] I studied interior architecture and furniture design in the academy. The plan was to do interior architecture, which is a less male-dominant industry. The thing is, during my studies, I was an artist assistant. I was helping an artist, Inghild Karlsen, to create sculptures and things like that. She was very artistic and, of course, I had the knowledge of construction, which together would be a really good teamwork.

When I graduated, I still was working with her. I also found another part-time job. I worked as a material scientist for a small product design company called HOOS. And so, my work was to research what new materials we can create to build product and furniture with, which was a very, very fun job.

But, unfortunately, I could not keep any of these two if I wanted to stay in Oslo, because I was, after all, an immigrant and coming from the Middle East, I needed a Visa. For that, there were rules and regulations. According to the rules, I needed a full-time job or a job that was about 80% within my field of studies. So, I ended up working as an interior architect in a firm that I one of the big firms in Oslo. I stayed there for a while. And then, after three years in Metropolis, I quit. I went to Radius, where I experienced a lot more fun working environment. And then, Radius ended up to Studio Lakayan, which is the small design studio I have today.

Joseph: So let’s talk about that transition. It sounds like you’re working in various architectural capacities in the interior architectural space.

Dorna: [24:38] Yeah.

Joseph: At Metropolis, and then eventually Radius Design. What were you thinking at the time? Were you thinking you’re going to just continue to work as an employee at these companies? Or at what point did you start to think, “Hey, I might want to do my own thing”?

Dorna: [24:51] Actually, I thought I will work at Radius for a long time. That was in the background when I started there. Like any other person, this corona event had a big impact on me as well. Especially, being in Oslo, in winter, darkness, fitting home, and working alone behind your computer with no social interaction, you start thinking and rethinking your life a lot.

Joseph: This was 2020 to 2021, is when you were there.

Dorna: [25:22] Yeah, exactly. I had a chat with my best friend and we are walking and she said, “But if you could do anything, like if you had the means to do anything you want to do, what would you do?” I said, “Oh, I wish then I would start my own studio.” And then, she’s like, “Why don’t you?” I’m like, “Well, I can,” and the whole thought began. So, it was a corona wish list, let’s say. Of course, I pursued it. I did some research. I saved money, all of the ABCs of “Let’s do this, and let’s be brave about it.” Of course, I can fail or not.

Joseph: What was appealing about the idea of starting your own studio compared to working for an established firm?

Dorna: [26:17] The biggest thing was the freedom of having a vision. Everybody who is in design or architecture is also aware of the fact that there are so many different signatures in design. When you work in big firms, you kind of lose that signature of your own. If you want to have that kind of vision and think in a very specific way or challenge some specific things, you need to either be very lucky or work with a very, very small team of people. That’s kind of what I decided to do, to change direction and work with the smaller team. It sounds like I’m one person, but in architecture, you are never one person. That’s the whole thing. You always have a team. But, of course, now I handpick that team.

Joseph: If you can go back in time for a moment, Dorna, when you think back to those early days of making that decision to officially make the transition from employee to entrepreneur, what excited you about it, and what scared you about branching off on your own?

Dorna: [27:35] There were, of course, two things. One that, “What if I can’t? What if I can’t deliver?” Because, okay, I knew I can do a project A to Z, and I knew my abilities, and everything, and the skills. But I also knew it takes a lot to deliver a good project. My colleagues at the firms I was working with were working day and nights to do that, and I was a part of that team doing it. Now, I have to be that team myself. That was the scary part.

Of course, like anybody else, financial worry. I won’t have a pay check, but I still have a rental. The whole “bills to pay.” What if I cannot earn money? What would happen? That is the day you learn that either you are brave to do it or you just have to leave it. I decided to just be brave and do it.

Exciting? Creating, I think. But that is always exciting for me. It doesn’t really matter what team I am in. I think that the moment you tell me that there’s a possibility that I can create, like I’m above the skies all over. Creating is what drives the whole cart.

Joseph: Before we talk about some of the things you’ve learned along the way of your career journey, you did make one more change, which is why you’re not in Oslo doing this interview and you’re actually in Amsterdam, what prompted you to make that move?

Dorna: [29:15] Yes, I moved to Amsterdam. I think this decision was really about reinventing myself. Not as an architect only, but as a person. I spent a decade in Oslo, and I met fantastic people, and I built a lot of things there. And then, I also had a lot of opportunities to learn, I would say. But when I was successful a year ago there and I was looking at my future, I thought to myself, “So, is this it? Am I now happy?” If this is like where I want to be, and who I want to be, and what I want to have? I felt not. I felt I’m missing something.

And then, I started actually digging in and seeing what I want to do then about it. What is it that I want? I mean, of course, one thing also was about the weather conditions in Oslo. That’s also another thing. And then, that moment was the moment that I was like, “Okay, where can I feed that part that is missing?” I needed a little bit of a bigger design theme, and a braver design scene as well in my head, more open. That kind of led into Amsterdam.

Joseph: I know that sometimes moving to a new country can be a challenge. Although, you’ve now tackled that a few times successfully. Another thing that can be a challenge is working on your own. I know that you work with a team. But starting your own business on your own, having worked in already established businesses, how has that transition been for you to go from employee to business owner?

Dorna: [30:56] Seriously, I’m not going to sugar-coat it. It’s not easy.

Joseph: What’s the toughest thing about it?

Dorna: [31:04] Some days, I feel like the toughest thing is waking up to nothing. There is no project. There is no potential project, or potential collaborator, or potential anything. But you still are so enthusiastic about doing it; that you wake up, and you hit something, and you find something, and you make a good day out of it. I think the challenge is to stay enthusiastic. That’s easier said than done, seriously.

I mean, now, we talk about all of these moves that I made and we call it successful, but It’s not also easy to do that. To come from one country to another and to start over, to have no friend, have no family, have no support, have nothing to lean on, to start over, go out and be brave enough to just say, “Hey, my name is Dorna. I want to be your friend,” or “I want to work with you,” or any other sentence that comes after. Some cultures are more open. It makes it easier. Some cultures are not. It’s really challenging to do it. I cannot say that I’m successful yet or not. I have a lot of successes. There is still a long, long, long way to go.

Joseph: It does take a lot of energy to start over and to rebuild, to re-acclimate yourself to a new culture, and to find new friends. How have you found the social scene there, and also what I’m going to describe as the professional social scene, where your ability to network with other people in the industry? How has that been for you there in Amsterdam? How would you describe that scene as someone from the outside?

Dorna: [32:52] It is a very open scene. It’s a very welcoming scene, I would say also. People look at my portfolio or my work or people talk to me, I get a lot of great comments about my work, which is very encouraging. But at the same time, of course, one goal is to be a part of a circle, one goal is to work in that circle. To work in that circle, I still haven’t figured out. It’s developing and it’s getting better and better. I’m meeting more people. But to just go in and say hello, I have had a lot of success. They are really open to hear your story and to introduce you to the next person who might be interested in your story and things like that. So that is developing, and I think it’s just like a maze or a puzzle. You have to just be patient and put more and more pieces to your future map.

It’s joyful, but it’s also, as you said, tiring. It takes a lot of energy to find where to be, where to meet these people, to send a lot of emails. Not all of them reply. Not everybody replies. To call people and say, “Hey, I have sent you an email by the way.” All of those things, it’s really like I say, more than a full-time job just to socialize.

Joseph: I know what you mean. I run my own business, Dorna, as you know.

Dorna: [34:25] Yeah.

Joseph: I think one of the most challenging things that I sometimes struggle with is a lack of a support system. I feel very alone at times. I’m wondering, do you feel that? Where do you turn for support when you’re feeling like your motivation isn’t where you want it to be?

Dorna: [34:45] I listen to your podcast. But, seriously, I think that’s what I can because I also feel alone. I feel down. There are days that I’m like, “Oh, my God, what did I do? Was it the right decision?” There are days that I doubt myself. I doubt myself as a designer. A lot of downs and downs. Because I always say,

we hear a lot of stories of success.

Joseph: Yeah.

Dorna: [35:14] In social media, and here and there and there. Nobody tells what was it like to get there. That’s the part that is missing. It’s very difficult. There are down days, 100%; lonely days, 100%. I haven’t found really a good solution. But I mean it when I say I listen to other people who are going through the same thing or have done the same thing. Just that makes me feel like I’m not alone. People have done it. Other people know.

Joseph: Absolutely. I think just feeling like it’s a normal thing to go through.

Dorna: [35:53] Yeah.

Joseph: Can be comforting and reassuring, in and of itself.

Dorna: [35:56] One hundred percent, 100%.

Joseph: The last thing I was hoping to talk with you about was just a couple of the lessons you’ve learned along the way of your very interesting career change journey. My first question relates to what you alluded to and have been talking about throughout this whole conversation, which is going from being an outsider to an insider, which is something that I think we all struggle with. Not only when you move to a different country, but also even when you just shift into a new industry or even our new employee at a new company. What have you learned about what it takes to penetrate into these inner circles?

Dorna: [36:33] I think the biggest thing that I have learned, which I’m still learning, let’s say it that way because it’s hard to remember it all the time, is that nothing is personal. It’s not about me that people don’t reply their emails, or it’s not about me that today, somebody doesn’t smile or all of those things, or somebody doesn’t look at your portfolio, or somebody doesn’t take your call, or all of those things that happen every day.

To stay positive is important, and I really know it’s easier said than done because I struggle some days with it myself to remember that I have to stay positive and it will get somewhere. But one has to just do it, to believe in yourself, as cliché as it is, to know that however it will end, you are investing in yourself. Even if not as a professional, as a person. This will definitely make something else out of you. This is your journey. If you trust in that, something good will come out of it. One way or another, it has happened to me. As I said, it is not all the [starry nights].

Joseph: Right. Last question, before we wrap up with what your focused on at this particular moment, and one of the projects that I find interesting. What have you learned about yourself along the way of this career journey of yours?

Dorna: [38:09] Number one, as I said, I think I learned I’m braver that I think. I generally think I learned to trust the fact that this too shall pass, to trust that life goes on. As long as I am enthusiastic about what I’m doing and I am excited about my future, opportunities will pop up. But I always thought I’m a very positive person. But being a positive person and having a drive to drive this positivity is two different things. I could never think that I’m this strong, that I can drive myself regardless of anything, and just believe in the fact that something good is out there. I think I learned that I can be way, way stronger and braver than I think. I’m of proud that. It’s like Dorna is a human being, it’s better than I thought.

Joseph: Well, that’s a good place to wrap this up. I would like to just finish up with something that you’re focused on right now. Can you tell me a little bit more about, first of all, the type of work that you’re doing there at Studio Lakayan? I’d be especially interested here about your YouTube series, “Lakayan Loves.”

Dorna: [39:34] Loves. At the Studio Lakayan, I am very much focused in space design. That means interior architecture, practically in my field of work. It’s space planning, making a good use of the space, functionality, and then to, of course, aesthetics, and moods, and fields, materials, finishes. Sometimes, furniture design, all of those, lighting design. So whatever matters within the space that you use, it can be an office, it can be your residence, it can be a hotel, it can be a shop. It doesn’t really matter. As long as it is a space that is tangible, that is what we do or what I do.

The Lakayan Loves, it’s something that I’m extremely excited about. Because, of course, I create a lot of things myself, but there’s a lot of people in this world, and there are a lot of fantastic designers and architects who are creating beautiful work. I love them, and I see them, and sometimes I just look at them, and I admire their work. I’m like, “See this beautiful thing they have created.” And then, I always felt like it’s such a pity that I can never share it with other people. I don’t like this trend on Instagram where people are just sharing other people’s work and just saying that “credit from this, credit from that.”

Joseph: Right, yeah.

Dorna: [41:03] I feel like there is more into it. There is this beautiful thing that we can look at and talk about. And then, I decided to create this short series where I can, very short, in less than a minute, show some of the works of my fellow colleagues and say what I admire about it. And then, help other people maybe see it as well. Maybe they already are seeing it. I’m not sure. But if not, maybe I give them that eye or those glasses.

Joseph: Very cool. I’m definitely going to check that out myself.

Dorna: [41:38] Yes, please do.

Joseph: If anybody who’s listening to this wants to learn more about you or the work that you do, where can they go?

Dorna: [41:47] Of course, lakayan.no or .com is available. You can check me out there. But I’m also on Instagram and on LinkedIn. Both are available on the website. So I would be happy to hear from people. If they are in Amsterdam, I would be happy to have coffee.

Joseph: All right. Well, we’ll definitely include all those handles and links in the show notes. Wanted to thank you so much, Dorna, for telling us more about your life as an architect and your experiences of living in so many places, and also your recent decision to run your own studio. Best of luck with all your work.

I would encourage people to check out your design work on Instagram, and even just your banner image on LinkedIn, which I told you when we first exchanged messages, isn’t too far off from being my dream home so I may take you up at some point on sketching out what my dream home concept could be.

Dorna: [42:39] It could be. Oh, my god! That’s going to be so much fun. I would love to do that.

Joseph: Me, too. One day.

Dorna: [42:45] Thank you for wishing me luck. I really need luck. I’m wishing luck for everyone who’s listening because I know they are also some people probably who are starting or shifting in their careers. So, good luck, everyone.

The start of a new job or chapter in your career can be a sensitive, delicate time. It’s a moment when you’re trying to convince yourself you’ve made the right move. It’s also a moment when you’re trying to convince others you can do something, which may be very different from what you were doing before.

Moving onto something new is harder than holding on to what you already have, even if what you have isn’t bringing you joy. In episode 102 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, Sandeep Achanta, a former fitness professional in India turned service designer in the UK describes how you can discover what ignites you, bravely leap into a new professional role, and embrace your unique career journey.  I also share some thoughts on overcoming the mental hurdle of starting over during the Mental Fuel® segment.

Sandeep mentioned he began his exploration of service design with the Interaction Design Foundation.

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I talked overcoming the emotional hurdle of starting over. My challenge to you is to identify one small, imperfect step you could take toward doing something that could allow you to feel more energized. Ideas include:

Remember, you don’t have to have it all mapped out right now. You just have to start somewhere.

00:00:00 Overview

Sandeep Achanta is currently a Service Designer working at the Bank of England. After spending over a decade in the fitness industry in India across various roles such as trainer, business owner, and product lead, he decided to pursue a Master’s program in Service Design at Loughborough University London. During his time at university, he worked on projects with organisations such as Mind, the mental health charity, and the Hackney Council public health team. Sandeep is passionate about designing great services that are sustainable and improve health and well-being. In his spare time, he loves playing tabletop games and reading fantasy fiction.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners and aim to respond to every single voicemail I receive.

A2 Hosting is the web host provider I use and trust for my own websites, and they even offer 100% carbon neutral green hosting. For an easy, fast, and affordable way to get your personal website online today, visit careerrelaunch.net/a2 to get 50% off your web hosting plan.

Joseph: Okay, Sandeep. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

Sandeep: [03:25] Thank you so much for having me on. Like I said, I’ve been a long-time fan and listener of the podcast, so it really is a pleasure and an honor to be on.

Joseph: Let’s start by talking about what has been keeping you busy in your career and your life at this moment. What are you focused on right now?

Sandeep: [03:45] I’ve just about landed on the other side of my career change journey. I’ve just started working as a service designer at the Bank of England. And so, what I’m really focused on is getting a sense of what it’s like to work in this field, and getting a sense of how to use a new toolkit that’s at my fingers, so to speak.

Joseph: For those people, like me, who are not exactly familiar with what a service designer does, I think it’s probably a less common job title. What exactly do you do for the Bank of England?

Sandeep: [04:20] A service designer helps manage the people, systems, processes, and interactions in the end-to-end delivery of a service. Basically, think of any common service that we interact with on a day-to-day basis, like a coffee shop. That’s the easiest example because you can sort of break it down from the beans to the cup of coffee in your hand and essentially, you’re thinking about all the different steps that it goes through, all the people that enable those steps, and then how all of those things fit together.

A service designer basically looks at that and says, “Here are some things that we can do better to improve the experience, to be more efficient at it,” or might even potentially create a completely new service getting coffee delivered to your doorstep, for example, is a service innovation, so to speak.

Joseph: How long have you been in this line of work?

Sandeep: [05:12] Three months.

Joseph: Three months, okay. This is really cool because we’re catching you right at the very beginning, which is nice because I can kind of hear some of your thoughts about the transition. I will come back to your time at the Bank of England, which I know is quite a new role for you. But before we do that, let’s go back in time. I know you haven’t always been a service designer for the Bank of England. Where are you from originally, and where did you grow up as a kid?

Sandeep: [05:36] I moved around a lot when I was younger, but I primarily grew up in Chennai in South India. It was a fairly normal Indian upbringing. I grew up in school, expecting to become a doctor, engineer. I guess it was the only two options. There were things like lawyers and everything else further along the line, but those were the only two options. I always had a keen interest in art, and drawing, and sketching. I ended up sort of going to a career in graphic design early on.

Joseph: What do you remember about life there as a child in Chennai? I guess I’m interested in both just what was on your mind at the time, if you can remember that far back, and also the types of things that you were interested in. I know you just alluded to that just now.

Sandeep: [06:24] I think what I remember most about my time in Chennai is, I’ve moved around a lot when I was a kid. I remember when I was really young that my brother and I responded to the moving around in very different ways. My brother was very extroverted and he made friends very quickly. I was a little bit more introverted. It took me a little bit longer to make friends and to get used to it. Every time we moved, it was a little disrupted. But something that I found was when I was getting a little older that really helped me make friends was that I was always interested in sort of making up stories and in collaborating, for lack of a better word, on creating stories. I used to play a crude version of Dungeons and Dragons back in India. We used to play a lot of tabletop games or board games, and there would be a lot of made-up games that we’d essentially come up with. I guess, in a strange way, it does connect to some of the things I’m doing now.

Joseph: Let’s go through the journey here. You mentioned you worked in graphic design, initially. And then, pretty quickly, shifted to work in the fitness industry. Do I have that right? How did that all start for you?

Sandeep: [07:37] I started work in the graphic design industry. Essentially, I was working as a graphic designer for a few different companies. There was a publishing house, and there was travels and tours company. Essentially, when I joined as a designer, what I ended up doing for them was logistics. It was a very small company, a start-up. And so, everyone wore multiple hats. I found that I automatically sort of gravitated towards this other skill set that I had of organizing things and being able to effectively sort of keep track of tasks and delegate things.

I found myself not enjoying the work as much because the growth was slow, as anyone in graphic design or advertising will tell you, the first eight to 10 years is essentially a grind. Unless you deeply enjoy the work, it can be difficult to have staying power. I found that it wasn’t really going anywhere. I wasn’t really learning a whole lot. I was thinking about what to do next. Around that time, I ended up joining a CrossFit-like gym that was back home in India. I really enjoyed it. I had such a great time. I liked it so much in fact that I asked him, “Hey, can I intern here?”

Joseph: You were doing CrossFit yourself. You were the one doing the exercise.

Sandeep: [08:56] Yeah.

Joseph: Okay.

Sandeep: [08:57] It was a different lifetime. Essentially, what I would do is — and it was amazing because I can’t imagine the amount of energy that I had in my early 20s.

Joseph: Yeah.

Sandeep: [09:06] Because I would essentially wake up at 4:00, intern there from 5 o’clock to 8 o’clock in the morning, shower, go to my day job, finish up at 5:00 in the evening, go back home, pass out, and repeat this for the rest of the week. After about six months of doing that, they said, “You sure are hanging out here a whole lot and you want a job.” It was a difficult transition because I had to get qualified, get my certifications under my belt.

My parents weren’t particularly happy that all of the education that they invested in was amounting to their son becoming, in their words, a gym trainer, but I was really, really passionate about it and I had a knack for it as well. The few times that I did, for example, jump in and run classes, I’ve always got very positive feedback. And so, about six months later, I ended up jumping on both legs and started working as a trainer in the fitness industry.

Joseph: That’s interesting because this is back in — do I have this right? 2011-ish, around that time. This is way before CrossFit became a big thing, which is I think it has become way more popular in recent years. You’re actually teaching these classes and you are a trainer at the gym. How did you enjoy that? What was that like for you?

Sandeep: [10:17] I really, really enjoyed it. I really enjoyed working with people, which is something that hit me. The job made me realize I really enjoyed working closely with people, helping them improve the quality of their lives, having conversations about their well-being. The most important part of it for me was really that, oftentimes, this was the first part of people’s days. It was at 5 a.m., 6 a.m., or 7 a.m. I really enjoyed that if I did everything right as a service, and I was able to give someone an excellent start to their day, my assumption was that the rest of their day went well. Usually, that was the feedback that we got as well. People were like, “Oh, I feel so great. I’m so happy when I come in and do my workout. Can I just do this all the time?” I really enjoyed having that experience. And so, I really enjoyed it.

The other side of it that I really found myself enjoying as well was that I found myself very, very passionate to learn about anatomy, physiology, nutrition, and the whole nuts and bolts of it. I remember really getting very, very nerdy into it, and I remember getting about five or six certifications in the span of a couple of years, which was fairly rapid, and some of them were not easy to complete.

Joseph: That’s really interesting. I’m just curious, were you always somebody who had been interested in fitness yourself? Had you been a pretty healthy guy growing up, or were you someone who was exercising a lot?

Sandeep: [11:47] Funnily enough, not at all. Actually, I’ve never played sports in my life. I’ve never engaged in formal sports. But that said, and here’s something that I found out only much later, my mom tells me that when I was much. much younger, I really enjoyed climbing. I really enjoyed randomly running around the neighborhood and being physically active. I just didn’t like sports. I just didn’t like organized sports at all. And so, when they did put me in organized sports, I didn’t respond well.

But before that, I always did enjoy it. Even after that, yes. Before I got into the fitness industry as well, I used to like trying random physical endeavors; like rock climbing or parkour. I could never stick to anything for very long, but I did enjoy experimenting for sure.

Joseph: You would start off as a trainer. You were doing that for a while. And then, eventually, you switched over and shifted more toward doing work on the business side of the training and fitness industry. Tell me about that transition.

Sandeep: [12:53] It started with the organization that I was working for. And so, the first step, as with any early career, is I essentially went from being a trainer to managing other trainers. Again, that was also a process that I really enjoyed because as I had mentioned earlier, I really enjoyed being organized. And so, as you can imagine, a lot of the trainers that we were getting were quite young. They were between 18 and 21, 22, and oftentimes, this was their first job. I really enjoyed the process of mentorship; both in terms of bringing them onboard into what being a fitness professional was like.

But then, also actually onboarding them onto being a working professional; showing up on time, being professional with the clients, knowing what to say and what not to say, which is a bigger deal than you think it is, especially in an exercise environment. I really enjoyed that process. And then, from that stage, essentially, I went to managing a center. This is when I got involved in sales. This is when I got involved in marketing. This is when I got involved in ensuring that the finances of the center made sense. If I had stayed there longer, I think I would have gotten involved in the strategic side of things as well.

Joseph: Were you thinking at the time that this was what you’re going to do long-term? Were you enjoying that? Did you see yourself in that industry for a while?

Sandeep: [14:18] At that point, I honestly thought I would be doing it forever. How things changed.

Joseph: What changed for you? When did you start thinking that you might want to shift and do something else?

Sandeep: [14:28] I think towards the end of it, unfortunately, I found myself limited in terms of the impact that I could have. I remember, I kept coming back to the idea of impact and I had to really unpack it for myself and understand what I meant by that. I realized that it was important to me that services or products that I created were scalable, replicable, and widely applicable. I didn’t have the knowledge to do that.

I had become such a specialist that, essentially, from that organization, I moved to another organization where I was helping create fitness products that were being delivered to a much bigger audience. We were then creating services for 100,000 to 150,000 customer base. I still found that the ways that I was contributing to that were fairly limited. I was writing workouts, creating operating procedures for the trainers, or ideating with product developers on what might be ways to create new interesting workouts.

I couldn’t help but shake the feeling that I could do more. I just couldn’t do it right now. Once I realized that it was almost as though the seeds of dissatisfaction were sown, and over the next couple of years, it just started becoming more and more obvious to me that I needed to move.

Joseph: Yeah, this is something I think that comes up with a lot of people who both come on to this show and also listeners of this show, as you are in a fairly comfortable environment, fairly comfortable job. You have a decent amount of financial and personal “success,” and yet, you just feel like something’s a little bit off. I’m just wondering, what was the tipping point for you when this went from dissatisfaction to complete dismay where you knew that something had to change for you?

Sandeep: [16:22] It actually went through several steps. I think as much as I would like to sit here and say that there was a flash of inspiration and I knew what I had to do, it actually took, I’d say, almost three years and went through several iterations. When I was working with this organization, as I thought through it a little bit, and I did work with a therapist on essentially mental health issues that I was having, because I was burnt out by the work that I was doing, I realized that the idea of autonomy and agency was quite important to me. With large organizations, as you can imagine, that’s not something that’s easily available to everyone. I think there’s autonomy and agency right at the top. And then, unless you’re at sea level, and maybe not even there, there isn’t necessarily a lot of autonomy.

And so, I realized that that was important to me. That was a core value. And so, I did what was a potentially very risky move and quit my job in the midst of the pandemic to try and create my own online fitness service with the intent that this would be much more holistic. It wouldn’t be focused on losing weight or getting six-pack abs, but it would be much more living a better quality of life, integrating fitness practices, and good nutrition practices into your core values, and so on. I did that for a little while and it was successful. But then, what started happening was I realized two things. One, that I’m not a very good entrepreneur. I wasn’t very good at drawing boundaries for myself when I was working as an entrepreneur. That made it very difficult for me to have work-life balance. It was around this time that I got engaged.

After enough weekends of listening to me whine about this, my fiancé, now wife, said I either have to do something about this or say you’re going to do it, continue doing it, and then deal with it. But the other side of it was also that I started doing a lot of the exercises that I had mentioned when we initially spoke that I’d come across on your YouTube channel, as well as some of the other career change exercises that I had come across. I started to be able to articulate specifically what the gap was. I started to be able to articulate why I was feeling unhappy and where I was feeling unhappy. And so, I think that realization combined with the fact that I was starting to be a very grumpy person to be around made me realize that either I had to have the courage to go ahead and change, or figure out ways of continuing to make this work.

Joseph: I want to shift gears here a little bit. Sandeep, you even talk about that transition. You’ve now realized you’ve got to do something about this situation and something needs to change. How did you then decide what to do next? It sounds like you took some time to clear your head and watch some of those videos, do some of the exercises. How did you figure out where to go from there?

Sandeep: [19:38] It was hard for sure. I think especially because there was a lot of negative self-talk in terms of I had put myself into a certain description, so to speak. I was Sandeep, the fitness subject matter expert, and didn’t have any other skills. I think it took me some time to come to grips with the idea of things like transferable skills, come to grips with the idea of reflecting on what prior interests might have been, and also taking a slightly more exploratory approach to the potential next steps.

That kind of made me realize that, okay, I did have some transferable skills. Sure, some of there may not be skills that I may put on a resume. It would be things like people’s skills or communication because I find that often they’re overused and a little vague. But I found that, okay, I do have these skills. I do believe that I can work with people. I do believe that I’m fairly organized and can manage projects. I do believe that I’m fairly effective at communicating across a wide range of stakeholders, and also collaborating with a wide range of stakeholders because those were experiences that I had. I think that was one, realizing that, “Okay, my next step can be built off of these transferable skills.”

And then, the next thing that I started looking at was, “Okay, all right, what am I interested in right now?” That took me a while to sort of encapsulate as well. I was initially interested in behavioral psychology because I still wanted to explore well-being. And so, that was something that I did consider. When I came across service design and design was when I realized that, actually, what I was looking for in terms of my desire to create scalable, and replicable services and products is an understanding of how products are created at scale and understanding of how services are created at scale, and what goes into that. That’s when I started sort of poking around product design, service design. When I started reading more about service design, I did a course on service design online by the Interaction Design Foundation. As I was doing it, for the first time in a few years, I lit up.

Joseph: A-ha.

Sandeep: [22:01] I felt amazed at how alive I felt. I was amazed at how natural the process of service design felt. It didn’t feel like a completely new discipline. It felt like something that I had done in some form of fashion before. Now, I just had a new toolkit to do it with. Which is when I took a bit of a risk, and I said, “Okay, I’d like to go ahead and study this,” and it worked out very, very well.

Joseph: Sometimes, what happens is we get so used to the job that we’re in and we get so accustomed to the routine of it all that we kind of forget how we used to feel or how we could feel. We feel like the way that we are experiencing each day is just par for the course as good as it gets. It’s not until you actually do something that you really enjoy that you realize, while this feels like me, this feels oddly familiar. As you put it, you really light up.

You mentioned that you decided to go back and study design, and you would eventually go back to university full-time. This was after being in the professional world for, I think it was it 12 years that you’d been working at this point. How did you decide where to go study this, and how did you navigate what can be kind of a jarring transition going from working full time to studying full time?

Sandeep: [23:19] It was pretty nerve-wracking, to be honest, at first. I think, initially, I wasn’t very serious about it for exactly the same reasons that you mentioned, which is I thought I was too old. I thought it was too much of a financial commitment. It was too much of a time commitment to go back to university at this age.

Joseph: How old were you at that time?

Sandeep: [23:40] I just turned 31.

Joseph: Uh-huh, okay.

Sandeep: [23:42] It definitely felt significant. But what happened was, funny enough, in the midst of the pandemic, I met and started dating my now wife. And so, she was about to start a PhD in the UK. She was living in Chennai at that point in time. We decided to get married. She was like, “Well, I’m going next year. I’m not going to change those plans because we’re getting married.” I was like, “Yes, of course.” There was a decision to be made. Essentially, I could go to the UK with her, look at continuing my fitness career here, and then looking at studying service design on the side, which is something that I did briefly consider. I did consider looking at open university, or other part-time courses, or perhaps pivoting to service design within the fitness industry.

I think the more that I thought about it, it came back to that feeling of feeling alive. I realized there was a potential decision where I could go back to university and it felt risky but, at the same time, it was very exciting. The prospect of having a year to really risk it all in some ways and see whether I could make it work gave me a sense of butterflies in my stomach but was also very, very exciting.

I think that was when I felt as though I had to take a leap of faith. Either I could iteratively try things and hopefully things worked out, or I could take a leap of faith and then see where things went. It made me realize that perhaps I am the kind of person who actually likes taking a leap of faith if there is enough of a reward there. And so, I think that was part of the decision that made me decide to go back to university. We got married. I think within weeks of us getting married, I started my master’s program. I moved halfway across the world to do that. Yeah, it was incredibly challenging, but it was a fantastic experience.

Joseph: You were at Loughborough. Was this your first time in the UK, this move with her?

Sandeep: [25:48] Yes. I’d visited for very, very short trips before that, but this was the first time that I’d moved.

Joseph: What do you remember about the early days of landing in the UK having come all the way here from Chennai?

Sandeep: [26:00] Funnily enough, Joseph, the months leading up to the move were absolutely nerve-wracking. Because I was thinking about finding a house, trying to figure out where everything was on Google Maps, trying to figure out how I could make sure that I had food in my kitchen. Because in India, as you can imagine,

labor is quite cheap. I don’t remember the last time that I had to cook for myself.

Joseph: Oh, right. Okay.

Sandeep: [26:25] When I moved here, it was a bit of a shock, for sure. But I think I surprised myself with how quickly I was able to adapt. Not so much in terms of the cooking that I managed that I had done before. But in terms of the culture is very different. The educational culture is very, very different. Whereas in India, it’s much more top-down. It’s much more performance-driven, grades-driven. Here, it was much more exploratory. There was a lot more open-ended teaching. I found that all of that worked very, very well for me. I really enjoyed the university experience here. I love being in London. It was fairly incredible. I was living in East London, which I know is frowned upon, but I really enjoyed living there, to be honest. It was a very colorful, diverse population, so I had a great time.

Joseph: I guess when you think about being back in school, it sounds like you were really enjoying it. What was the hardest part about being back in school after all these years of having not sat in a classroom? I know, you did some certification on the side. You did some online learning. But being in the classroom is very different. What was challenging about that?

Sandeep: [27:36] There were two things that I found the most challenging. One was, I’d forgotten what it was like to learn from a textbook, if that makes sense.

Joseph: Yeah, it does.

Sandeep: [27:49] I had been learning constantly and I’d been growing constantly, but it was always learning on the job. I think it had been several years since I had learned from a textbook. I found that a little bit challenging, and it took some time to get used to. But I think once I did, I found it very, very rewarding. To this day, it’s something that I find that I still enjoy, and I find that it’s something that I’m able to maintain as a passion.

The other thing that I found really challenging was that I was much older than all of the other students. There was an average of an eight to 10-year-old age gap between me and the rest of the students because I was 33 at this point, and everyone else was between 21 and 24. There was a significant age gap. I found that, initially, it felt like it came with several disadvantages. I generally found that I didn’t have the — I don’t want to say energy in terms of physical energy, I still felt mostly physically energetic, but I didn’t have the mental energy to go chase 10 different directions at once, if that makes sense. I found that my curiosity was much more focused than spread out, which, again, was both a boon and a bane. I found that it took me a moment to realize that as a slightly older student with a little bit more work experience, I had to navigate this process a little bit differently for myself. It took me a few months to do that.

I think when I was able to figure out how to make it work for me, I think that’s when I really started to make the most of it. I can give you some examples of this. I realized that, for example, most of the PhD students were closer to my age, or the professors weren’t that much older than me and were willing to have a conversation with me because I had some amount of experience. And so, I was able to converse with them and engage with them outside of the classroom environment. That was very, very useful and that’s where I really learned the most. While the classroom experience itself of the university was great, I really, really, really enjoyed understanding who these people were, what led them to design, how they are applying it in their careers today, and how they saw the role of design in the world even, so to speak. I know that sounds sort of vague and new age-y, but I genuinely mean it helped me understand the context for what I could potentially do with this new skill once I graduated.

Joseph: Before we switch gears and talk about your time now as a service designer, because I am very interested to hear about how that’s been going for you, we should probably talk about how you and I first crossed paths. As I understand it, I guess a couple weeks after your arrival, came to one of my career seminars, which I assume was online at the time. In December of 2023, that’s when you actually wrote me a very kind email, which is how we first connected. It wasn’t until then that I actually realized that you had been on this career change journey.

Before we talk about your time as a service designer, can you just tell me about how it felt when you graduated from your program with distinction, by the way? What was that moment like for you?

Sandeep: [30:58] Graduating was a very emotional moment for several reasons. It speaks to the amount of self-doubt that I had before engaging on the whole process. Not just of university, but of the career change itself. When I initially started having feelings of doubt in the fitness industry, the thought that really stopped me is, “But you’ve spent so much time and effort in this industry, and you haven’t taken the time to acquire any other skills. You haven’t worked in the corporate world. You haven’t acquired the job titles that people usually do by this age. This is the path that you’re locked in.” I could see that path. I could see some of my colleagues would pass me. I had told myself that that was all I was going to be able to do, and there was no way for me to break out of that.

Graduating with a distinction, graduating with a job, graduating with fantastic feedback from my research advisor, as well as with the organization that I worked with during my dissertation, all of that was very emotional for me because it was an indicator that my leap of faith had paid off. Yes, the certification meant a lot, but the culmination of everything that had started several years ago was very, very emotional for me.

Joseph: Congratulations, first of all, for graduating with distinction, just a few months ago. I am very interested to hear how things are going for you. I know you’re only a few months into it. That can be a very broad question to just ask somebody, how are things going? I’m going to try to guide this a little bit based on what you and I discussed before we started this recording. One of the things that I remember you told me when we first connected was that you’re so focused on landing on your feet that you didn’t really think about what would happen once you landed on the other side. Could you just explain to me what you mean by that?

Sandeep: [34:59] I think when I was looking up service design and what a service designer does, what a service design role involves, I don’t think I realized that I would be starting at the bottom in many ways. I don’t think that I really considered what that would mean, what would a junior service designer role look like. I didn’t consider what the emotional brunt of that would feel like after having had expertise before, after having been in a field where I had competence, where I was confident because of that competence, where I had agency because of that competence.

And so, on the other side, not only am I using a new skill set that I am not very familiar with, but I’m also in an industry that I have absolutely zero experience with. There is an element of figuring out a new skill set within a new domain. What I meant by, I didn’t consider what that would feel like is that, tactically, it’s hard.

Yes, there are a lot of things that need to be done. There’s a lot of upskilling that needs to be done outside of work. But emotionally, it’s very hard as well. It really is an exercise in humility because you have to be okay with the fact that there are people younger than you who have not done a career change, who are probably in more senior positions, who probably have more experience, who are more competent and more confident in their skills.

I think there’s also you might be reporting to people who possibly have less overall career experience than you, or who maybe don’t have as much expertise as you did in your previous role, right? I spent 12 years in the fitness industry, which might be, say, less than somebody spent in product design or career design. But I would be reporting to them for a good reason because they have much more competence at this thing. I think all of this really is an exercise in humility. But I think along with that, it comes back to what you’d said about transferable skills, which is having a sense of confidence in skills that I previously acquired in figuring out how they translate in this new environment is not a process that I can take for granted. It’s a process that I have to consciously seek out and enable.

Joseph: Has there been anything in particular that you have learned about yourself during this process of going from being an experienced professional to what can feel like you’re going to the bottom rung of a totem pole, I guess, to put it bluntly? What have you learned about yourself as you’ve been going through this exercise and humility as you put it?

Sandeep: [35:54] As much as it sounds like I am in a sense whining about starting at the bottom, I’m actually not. I will say that I do enjoy it in some ways. Although, I did feel a lot of discomfort at the idea of starting again and not having competence. But I think what it made me realize is what I am actually good at and what I actually do enjoy. I’ve realized, for example, that the things that, in a situation like this in an uncomfortable situation, I enjoy doing is figuring out a way to provide value in the ways that I can.

For my team, for example, I’ve started taking up the tasks that nobody else wants to do, that are not fun to do, that might be admin work, or that might be collaborating with people and setting up meetings and doing the grunt work. I find that finding ways for me to add value is something that I am happy to be open-minded and curious about and find my own way through.

The other thing is that I do tend to undervalue some of the transferable skills that I have. Recently, I had a review with my line manager as it’s been about three months. Some of the feedback that she had for me was that I undersell a lot of the skills that I’ve acquired from previous experience. And so, something that she was highlighting was that by discounting that, I don’t allow myself to contribute in ways that I already can, using expertise that I already have.

It got me thinking about how going through something like this, I think it’s easy to discount all the previous knowledge that you have or all the previous abilities that you have. I think it’s very important to understand the value of it when you’re going through this process so that not only does it give you a sense of confidence when you’re starting off at the bottom of the totem pole, but it also allows you to figure out a way forward that is uniquely yours.

What I mean by that is, I think if I was to throw all of that out the window and start off from scratch and say, “I’m going to try and be the best service designer that I can,” that’s probably going to take me another 10 years to do that. However, if I say, “I’m going to be the best combination of whatever skills that I already have, and then combine them with the new skill set that I have,” it might pay an opportunity for me to contribute in a unique way that perhaps if I was just trying to be the best service designer that I can, I wouldn’t be able to.

Joseph: That makes a lot of sense. I guess we can have a tendency of almost dismissing away our past experiences, which on the surface might seem very irrelevant to our current role, but actually do provide us with some unique perspective and allow us to add value in a unique way that we otherwise wouldn’t be able to.

I suppose the last thing I was hoping we could talk about before we wrap up, if we continue to focus on your new role and how different it has been for you and the career change journey you’ve been on, has there been anything particularly surprising about your transition going from the fitness industry into becoming a service designer with the Bank of England?

Sandeep: [39:07] I think actually the most surprising things have not necessarily been with regards to the profession itself, but with regards to working in a different country because the culture is completely different in the UK than back home in India. I’m able to navigate the domain differences and the skill differences. Because often, it’s about learning a new skill set or learning information that you didn’t have before, and then understanding it and how to work within it.

Culture differences between back home and here is something that I need a lot of help with often. Little things like ask my boss, “Hey, can I step out for lunch and I’ll be back in an hour and a half?” She’s like, “Yeah, you’re not chained to your desk. It’s fine. You can do that.” Or knowing that even though there is, say, hierarchy within the organization, that is completely fine for me to speak to someone who is a couple of levels up and ask them what might potentially be a stupid question. These are things that are frowned upon or I’ve not always had the opportunity to do before. There are, I would say, the most surprising thing has been learning about the cultural differences between different parts of the world. It’s something that I was sort of aware of, but experiencing it first-hand is completely different.

Joseph: I’ve never been to India myself. I do work with people in India quite regularly, and there are definitely some differences I do notice in the working style. Also, just like life in general, I suppose, when you move from one country to another. I’ve been here for 14 years now, Sandeep, and I still, like on a daily basis, I still struggle with aspects of British culture, even after all this time. And so, I think you’re right in pointing out that some of these more tactical things like navigating a new industry or function or role can actually be learned,

but those cultural nuances and differences can be much harder to navigate.

A couple more questions for you before we wrap up. If you had to give advice to your younger self as it relates to changing careers, what might that be?

Sandeep: [41:12] To really be more confident in myself and my abilities. This actually goes back to one of your videos, and also the question that I asked you back in 2022 when you presented at my university, which is, “If you have any kind of work experience at all, whether it’s a couple of years, whether it’s several years, I think really have confidence in what you can do, and especially what you can do well.” Because I think knowing what you’re good at, what you like doing, and what you want to continue to do, will allow you to cleave clearly what you don’t want to do or what you’re not good at, and will also allow you to in the future stack skills on top of that and say, “This is actually who I am. I am not just Sandeep, who likes to organize, work with people, collaborate, teach; but I’m Sandeep who likes to do all of this in the context of developing services.” It’s kind of like you’re building on top of who you are, rather than starting from scratch each time. I think the reason why I would give myself that advice is because I personally needed a lot more confidence when I was starting off.

Joseph: When you look back on this career pivot, what’s something you wished you had known that you now know since you are now on the other side of it? Actually, I guess you’re still going through it.

Sandeep: [42:39] It’s that as long as I’m following my interests, it’s enjoyable. I think the reason why I’d say I wish I had known that is because I was trying to make sense of everything from such a rational point of view, where I was trying to make sense of all the dots and made sure that when they all connected, there was a beautiful picture at the end of it. But it’s not always that clear, is it? But all the time, it’s worked out. Whether it’s university, whether it was my dissertation, whether it was my job, whether it was the internships that I did, any time I was doing something that I was interested in, and I followed that interest, it always paid off.

Yeah, I wish I had known that and I’m still working on that. Because I think it’s very easy to drift back into the mode of, “Okay, this is the right decision to make.” I wish I had known that.

Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Sandeep, for going such a deep dive into all of your reflections that you’ve had over the years, and telling us about your life, both back in India and how you pivoted to restart your career here in the UK. I appreciate you reaching out back in December and dropped me a really kind email. I just wanted to wish you the best of luck with your new role there at the Bank of England, and your life as a service designer right now. I hope it continues to go well for you.

Sandeep: [44:06] Thank you so much. Like I mentioned in the email, I cannot understate the impact that you’ve had in my life. You were such an incredibly important part at the beginning of this journey. I’m sure you’ve forgotten about those YouTube videos that you probably made way back when, but I’m sure there’s people like me who are still watching them and are able to actually take actionable lessons and steps away from that and do something with it. Thank you so much for the work that you do, Joseph.

Joseph: Of course.

Sandeep: [44:34] It really meant so much. I’m continuing to listen to the podcast, and I wish you all the best with everything.

Joseph: Thank you so much. It’s been really meaningful to connect with you, and it’s not every day that I hear from people who watch my videos. It has been a while since I’ve done those years. I should probably get back to that at some point here, but I appreciate you saying that. It really does mean a lot to me, and it’s just been a real privilege to have you on the show. Thanks for coming on.

Sandeep: [44:57] Thank you for the kind words.

When was the last time you took some time off from work? I often feel this pressure to keep plowing ahead in my career, to not take detours, and to not slow down. However, taking a momentary pause during a job transition is often the only real opportunity you have to slow down, recalibrate, and reconsider where you want to take your career next.

HR professional Gisela Prunes Garcia shares her thoughts on the complexities of living and working in different countries, putting yourself out there before you’re ready, and managing your internal thoughts during uncertain career transitions.

In episode 101 of the Career Relaunch® podcast, I also share some thoughts on the tension between professional achievement and periodic reflection during the Mental Fuel® segment.

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, I challenge you to periodically permit yourself to slow down, even if it’s just for a day, and allow yourself to have a bit of a metaphorical palate cleanser. During these momentary pauses, ask yourself:

00:00:00 Overview

Gisel Prunes Garcia is a Human Resources professional from Barcelona who lived in the United States for the past 12 years. Her career in corporate started in Barcelona at Sara Lee Corporation, a Fortune 500 company in consumer goods, where she worked for a few years until she decided to move to California in 2012. She went on to explore different industries while building up a new life and career in a new culture, in a second language with no network.

Her most recent experiences were with The Walt Disney Company in HR Production and Getty Images managing Creative and Editorial client groups. She specializes in finding opportunities that drive solutions to improve the employee experience and business results. Working in various industries and with highly creative folks allowed her to form unique perspectives and develop agility to analyze problems and find holistic and creative solutions.

Follow Gisela on Instagram and LinkedIn.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!

Wise is the world’s most international bank account. It lets you hold and convert multiple currencies all in one place, offering a smarter, easier way to move money internationally without the typical bank fees or foreign exchange commissions. I’ve used it for years myself to handle many of my own international transactions. Try Wise for free at CareerRelalunch.net/wise.

Joseph: Hello, Gisela. Thank you so much for joining me here on the Career Relaunch podcast. It is great to have you on the show.

Gisela: [03:53] Thank you for having me. I’m very excited.

Joseph: We got a lot to talk about between your time in Spain and moving to the U.S., then eventually moving back to Spain. I was hoping we could start by just getting a glimpse into what you’re focused on right now in your career and your life. Could you just give us a quick snapshot?

Gisela: [04:13] Right now, I think that I’m in one of the most convoluted times of my journey, one of those that are very gray and you are kind of lost in the mist and kind of stuck.

Joseph: That’s very common for people to be at, that’s why we’re talking. What’s been confusing about this particular time?

Gisela: [04:31] I’m going through a lot of change in a lot of areas of life. When more than one changes, it elevates the stress. And so, being able to manage that at this moment, it’s becoming a challenge and terrifying as well.

Joseph: Just to set the scene here, could you just tell us, where are you right now and what are you up to right now, both personally and professionally?

Gisela: [04:58] I’m in Spain, that’s where I’m from. I’m currently in Barcelona. I recently came here but I was in the U.S. for the past almost 13 years, but I’m originally from Spain so I just returned. I don’t know for how long, but I decided to come back here and spend more time with family recently, the last 2-3 months.

Joseph: Can you describe the work that you are at least thinking about doing moving forward? I know you’re in the transition right now and still figuring it out.

Gisela: [05:34] I’ve been working in corporate in my career. Since I was still living in college, I was already trying to figure out what I wanted to do when doing internships in companies. So since very, very early stage in my career, I’ve been in corporations, mostly big corporations. Right now, I’m taking a pause on everything career-wise to process this transition or the moment in life that I find myself in. I’m assessing and exploring too if I would like to become an entrepreneur and how would I do with that.

Joseph: Let’s kind of go back in time a little bit. You mentioned you’re back in Spain now, and you had moved to the U.S. at the beginning of your career. I want to talk about what triggered you to move countries, but can we just start from the very beginning of your career? I know you’ve spent a lot of your career in the corporate world focused on HR. What got you interested in working in human resources at the very beginning?

Gisela: [06:30] I was very compelled by the human resources work. But because in education really, I found that this is a field that it’s not very explored no matter what you studied. I felt like I really wanted to get a sense of it working and experiencing myself, what it is to working in each of the other departments. So very young, I got an internship at the time was Sara Lee, and I was based in Barcelona. Since the moment that I got into that company, and previously I already tried different fields, but experienced at this company, I loved it. I loved the combination of skill sets, working in a business, but also everything that had to do with talent management. I really loved it. I thought, “This could be my career.”

Joseph: So from the start, you’re at Sara Lee, were you thinking that HR was the best fit for you? Were you pretty certain about that at the time? Did it feel right to you at the time?

Gisela: [07:25] Yes, it did. I like to add different things. I was also interested in education, but I felt very comfortable in a business setting and in a business environment. I think that’s what made me stay and continue learning about it. I was doing well. I decided to explore all the different facets and areas of human resources.

Joseph: Now, eventually, you made a pretty big decision to leave your home country, and eventually move to the U.S. I’d love to dive into this a little bit because I know it’s a major decision to relocate countries; as someone, myself, who’s done it. What triggered you to think about moving away from Spain and how did you choose the U.S. to be your destination?

Gisela: [08:12] I wanted to expand my career and make it be international in my experience and learn about other countries. I knew that if I wanted to have like a career that’s like international, I would have to learn English and that was my pending signature. I’ve never been good at learning languages. I thought after a few years at Sara Lee, I was still in my early 20s and I felt myself very settled in Spain and there was something that I was like, “I need to explore.” I always been like this dedicated person; studying, working, having two jobs while studying, and I was already doing well. But too settled for my tastes.

So I thought, “This is the moment. Let’s study English somewhere.” I just opened a map and literally decided, “Okay, where in the world I could go to learn English, that has a sunny location?” So that was my first indicator of like, it has to be like a sunny place. And then, I ended up going to San Diego.

Joseph: San Diego.

Gisela: [09:12] California.

Joseph: Yes. good choice. How was your transition to the U.S.? What did you do when you first got there and how did you settle in?

Gisela: [09:21] It was tough. At the beginning, I thought it was just going to be a vacation while I was in language school. So it’s a very different mindset than when you are actually settling to live in a new country. At the beginning, it was very fun. It was an amazing one of the best experiences that I ever had while I was in language school, 8 to 10 hours a day, really mastering. My English skills are trying because they were like pretty much non-existent.

But then, things change when you are already like, “Let’s live here. Let’s try to start a career here.” Still with basic level of English, that was probably the toughest experience of my career. Especially in human resources since you need to know a lot in the employment law, the legislation. I would not finish the phone interview screenings. I was not able to because I had a lot of difficulty understanding them. Little by little, when that improved, the recruiters would tell me, “You have good experience in Europe. But here in the U.S., we require pretty like medium to high level of knowledge with employment laws; especially in California.” So learning all of that in a second language was tough.

Joseph: You would eventually move into the corporate world, working in HR. You successfully secured your role. Out of curiosity, how did you overcome these barriers, the hesitation on the side of headhunters or recruiters or hiring managers when they were saying, “Okay. You got the qualifications, but you don’t have the localized experience that we’re looking for.” How did you overcome that?

Gisela: [11:04] I think I cried a lot. And then, I went to HR courses that helped me. I bought a lot of books and I did a lot of self-study to the point where my whole house was full of papers. The walls of my house were full of papers, even in my bedroom, all over the place, so I could memorize some of the laws or words that for me were difficult to understand. It was a lot of that through those classes.

And then, getting an internship, which at the time was unpaid. So for me, was a setback. Because in Spain, I was much better position. But it was very helpful to get that internship so I could practice, like a real experience. Then, studying aside.

Joseph: So a combination of internships, and also your self-study, and scaling up. You were interning at the World Trade Center in San Diego, and then you ended up moving into the recruitment sector for a little bit of time. You would eventually land at Walt Disney Imagineering. How did you land that role? Because that’s obviously a large, well-established company. Just be curious, how did you manage to get your foot in the door with Walt Disney?

Gisela: [12:20] Disney was always my first target. Since I was in the U.S., I started believing that could actually be possible for me to get a job there. I submitted close to 30 applications at Disney in the first years. Those applications never got a callback. But eventually, after I started building my experience and temping, which was a huge entrance for me in the U.S. market so I could switch from companies very quickly, learn fast, make an impact fast and every gig was better than the old one, and updating my LinkedIn.

And so, after all of that, I received a call from a head-hunter who found me on LinkedIn for a potential two-month opportunity. Thanks, God that I returned that call because they even say it was Disney. It was like an email that didn’t look very appealing. But I always had that sense of curiosity that I thought, “Let me go to find out what this is.” When they said it was Disney, I couldn’t believe it.

Joseph: And this was a temporary role initially.

Gisela: [13:22] Yes.

Joseph: What would you go on to do at Walt Disney Imagineering? I know you were there for just over a year, and then you’d eventually move on to the animation studios. Could you take us through your trajectory there at Walt Disney?

Gisela: [13:34] That first call, it was for a temporary position for a very, very specific project. It was to assist the human resources department that was leading the construction of the Disneyland Resort in Shanghai. They interviewed me for that project. After that project ended, then I applied for another role at Imagineering as well in recruiting. And then, I got that role. But all of this, it was still like temporary contracts. I was like a place at Disney by a third party during the time that I was at Imagineering.

Joseph: How did you then move from that temporary role into a more full-time role for Walt Disney Animation Studios, and then eventually the Walt Disney Studios?

Gisela: [14:15] During that time at Disney, I was like, “I’m loving these. I’m loving this place.” I was just sinking in all the magic. I couldn’t even believe that I was still there after 1 year or like 2 years when it was only going to be two months. So I encouraged myself to, “Okay. Maybe this is possible. Maybe now, I can get a full-time job and be hired at Disney.”

And so, at that time, I remember there were limited possibilities because there were not many positions open. But one of them was that I saw an opening at the Walt Disney Animation Studios. I just regularly applied through their portals, and I got an interview with Disney Animation Studios. I remember that I don’t think that I ever, in my life, prepared for anything better and more than I prepared for that interview with animation.

Joseph: What do you remember about that interview?

Gisela: [15:12] It was many interviews. It was so many interviews. Like one-on-one interviews, but there were also panel interviews with multiple people in the room. And so, those like more towards final stages made me like super nervous. I was like out of my mind with nervousness and anxiety.

Joseph: You would eventually become a recruitment and outreach coordinator there at Walt Disney Animation Studios. Then, you became an HR specialist at the Walt Disney Studios. I know this a while back, but what did you like about your life in the corporate world there in the U.S. at the time?

Gisela: [15:45] I was thriving in it. I loved all the challenges, and there are always challenges that come with working in corporate and a lot of complexities. But I found myself thriving on it, and I was always so hungry for learning. I always found something that would be fascinating for me, for my own development, and for my own learning. I was very comfortable with the environment, especially working in a creative setting. That was very inspiring for me since I do have a personality that is always also involved in like [unintelligible 16:20], and that was for myself. And so, I felt like I connected well also with that environment at that time.

Joseph: Were you thinking that you were going to just stay at Walt Disney? And definitely, did it cross your mind to explore other companies, other opportunities? Where were you at in terms of your professional interests at the time, staying versus exploring something else?

Gisela: [16:48] Especially the first years when I was at Disney, I was like, “Would I want to ever go somewhere else?” I could see how easily is to get comfortable. It was a very difficult and a struggle to not attach your personal value or identity. They, in such a big brand, in such a big name. And so, every time that I changed the position at Disney, it was a struggle. For example, leaving animation. It was like, “Am I crazy? I love this place. Why would I leave?”

But on the other side, you have that other voice of prioritizing growth at a certain moment in your career and especially in my field, which is very interesting to me, personally, seeing different environments and departments and teams. It was that decision of, “Okay. I’m going to jump,” even though I always thought, “Maybe I’ll regret jumping, but I’m still going to do it.” It was that constant struggle to check in with yourself and then just do it because there is always a different learning on the other side.

Joseph: I was giving a talk a few weeks ago, and somebody came up to me after my talk. It was on achieving your career goals. She works at Google and she’s been there for years, I think over a decade. She asked me, is there a problem to stay at a company for a really long time? Like, does that start to look strange from an external standpoint?

But I guess, what I was thinking when I heard that question was, sometimes, I myself, feel like if I’ve been doing something for too long, just the duration of time starts to make me wonder if I should do something else. I’ve always just wondered, is that like an unnecessary pressure that we put on ourselves to constantly be pushing forward to the next challenge? Do you have any thoughts? Again, I’m going back to your time as you started to wrap up your time at Walt Disney, and we’ll eventually talk about your most recent role in the moment.

Gisela: [18:47] Personal life circumstances also play a huge factor. Maybe the fact that I was a foreigner in a foreign country, without my family over there, maybe that will get me a little bit more impulse than maybe somebody who makes different decisions based on their lives in circumstances or is looking for more stability. They feel like it’s many different factors. But I agree that, sometimes, we just put a lot of pressure on ourselves, and it depends on the discipline as well. There are certain disciplines that once you secure a really good position in a certain industry where maybe those jobs are more limited, maybe it makes sense that the person tends to want to stay longer. But maybe for other disciplines, you could benefit from seeing different environments, that also is a point of decision-making for someone to be jumping around I think.

Joseph: How did you make your decision to eventually leave Disney and move on to Getty Images then?

Gisela: [19:46] To me, leaving Disney, I felt like Frodo dropping the ring in Mordor. It was very difficult to put down my batch of that company. But I really wanted to see a different idea within the entertainment and media industry. I was looking for a very specific type of role that was more strategic, and I was looking for different characteristics. And I thought after almost 8 years of my run in Disney, that was a good point to move forward.

And then, it took me a while. I interviewed a lot, many companies. Like, the companies were interviewing me, but I was interviewing more of those companies because I had a lot of clarity in what I wanted to find. So it took a while, but eventually, Getty came along with a very interesting role and had most of what I was looking for in my next role, and I accepted the job offer with them.

Joseph: Things are going pretty well for you in the United States. You move to San Diego. You land a couple of internships. You’re working at one of the most well-known companies in the world, Walt Disney. You eventually move on to Getty Images. You land the role that sounds like was the perfect fit for you regarding your next move. When did you start thinking about moving back to Spain?

Gisela: [21:14] The last few years since the pandemic. The pandemic became very hard to manage when you are so many miles from your family, and there was a change of paradigm and a change of a lot of things. I feel like since the pandemic, I had in the back of my mind the possibility of spending some time in Europe, even if it was not necessarily Spain. But because I left it so young and I have grown so much, I always had that thing of like, “Should I explore? Should I take some time to recognize Europe, and even discover places that I didn’t have the chance to when I was so young?”

Joseph: Was there a moment when you made your decision; “Okay. I’m going to leave Getty behind, going to leave Los Angeles behind,” which is where you were based at the time, “and I’m going to move back to Barcelona.” Do you remember the moment when you decided that?

Gisela: [22:07] Yes. I think it was last year, actually. Los Angeles; I always felt so compelled by the city, so I would have those thoughts of going back on my mind, but I would not act on it because I was doing well there, I had my job, I was happy with Getty Images. Actually, I will always remember it was award season in Los Angeles. It was between the months of February and March that I actually was with the team that I was supporting creative and editorial at the Oscars.

Later, a week after, I was all of a sudden in the hospital in one of those life moments where your health all of a sudden goes downhill, and then you need to reassess things, and then you need to start listening. The body puts you in a different direction all of a sudden. So that was like a breaking point for me to reassess, “Okay. What do I do now that I have a new life situation?”

Joseph: If you don’t mind me asking, Gisela, what was happening with your health at the time? What was the reason for having to go to the hospital?

Gisela: [23:12] I’ve been struggling for the 2-3 years with a lot of symptoms that nobody was able to pin down where those were coming from, even though they affected me a lot but I was able to manage. All of a sudden, during that time, I started experiencing stronger and stronger symptoms. Until one day to the other, I got super sick. And then, finally, they were able to diagnose that I was celiac. But I have been asymptomatic for a long, long time, which as far as I know is not as common. Usually, celiac shows some sort of symptoms even if they are not digestive. But in my case, my body showed absolutely nothing until I was like very severely Ill where my digestive system was not properly functioning. And then, you even get like this nutrition.

So it was something at that time, very severe for what it could look like on the surface, like a condition that’s not familiar, right? With that condition that is like, “Oh, you stop eating gluten,” and that’s it. But sometimes, if it’s caused more damage, it’s no longer simple. So I had to really put a pause on everything at that point.

Joseph: I don’t know a tremendous amount about celiac. I know some people in my life who’ve had it, and it involves gluten intolerance. But I also understand that if you don’t discover it until later in life it can actually wreak some havoc and damage on your system. I guess it’s good that you caught it. When you did, I guess as you’re lying there in the hospital, what was running through your head when you thought about your career looking forward in the United States versus perhaps exploring returning to Europe?

Gisela: [24:54] First of all, there was a phase of depression and anger. Like, I even told my doctor first before I could even think of anything else, it’s like, “You are wrong. I’m not celiac. Like, I’m from Spain and I’m made of red. What are you talking about?” I was at first upset with everything, right? Especially, in a moment where you are in your career and doing well, it’s like, “Oh, no.”

Joseph: And then, how did you come to terms with that? I guess I’m thinking about the stages of grieving. I guess the first couple are, first of all, denial, and then some anger that you’re talking about. How did you come to accept that maybe you did need to make a change?

Gisela: [25:31] It took me a few months. I’m sure many people would relate to this, but we tend to take everything on ourselves. Like, “I can do it. I’ve been doing it for like 12 years here and alone, and I’m alive, and I’ve gone through so many things, so this is just one more. This is not going to stop me or affect me in any way, right?” So I try to act normal and overcome it on my own like I always done. But this time, it was not working. This time, the more that I was trying to push, the body was slapping me back. I’m fine one day, and then I’m more sick the other.

That’s for months until I had a discussion with my supervisor. I was very transparent about what I was going through. I received great support as well. I finally assessed the situation and decided, “Okay. Maybe this is the time to take a pause, find the keys of what works for me until I recover, until I get better, and I find my new habits.” And then, I rather do it from Spain, spend more time with my family, to connect with Europe, and take this time as a creative exploration with myself.

Joseph: What’s it been like for you the past couple of months now that you have been back in Spain?

Gisela: [26:49] It’s been scary. I never experienced this before. It’s a constant terror that you are, all of a sudden, first of all, not attached to any big brands. So here it goes again. Now, I’m solo. My name is not attached to those brands anymore. Like, you don’t have a paycheck coming through. The list could go on and on of terrifying things that are happening right now. But I think that the worst is not having a clear direction of what you are going to hit next, which is kind of the first time that happened to me. Because I’m very analytical. I always have a plan A, B, and C.

And so, right now, I can have an idea of the things that I want to explore, but that is not that specific goal that I need to hit. And so, that creates a lot of anxiety and it’s just terrifying of being in a situation where you’re trying to figure out and explore and get to enjoy this time without the anxiety hitting you over.

Joseph: This is I guess, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk with you, Gisela. Because I think so often on these kinds of shows, we talk with people during the before and the after of their career change journey. And so, you get a glimpse of what they were doing before, and then you kind of get the glimpse into how everything is now worked out really nicely in the end. What I think is very interesting is catching people when they’re in the middle of it and they haven’t figured it out because that’s where a lot of listeners are when they listen to this show.

You’re right, you’re talking about some things that I know I’ve struggled with myself, where it’s the balance between just enjoying the downtime versus feeling pressured to uncover and identify exactly what you want to do next.

I guess I’d be really interested to hear, how about the readjustment going back to Spain and being back in your home country. As you know, I’m from the United States. I live in the UK now. I’ve always wondered what it would be like if I were to then move back to the U.S. after all this time of being away. Can you give a glimpse into what that adjustment has been like for you? And then, we’ll talk about some of your professional explorations in a moment.

Gisela: [28:49] I don’t know if I would be able to answer this question yet because it’s been so recently for me. While I’m trying to recover a bit of my health, I’ve been so swimming between madness of logistics and administrative things that I need to do and start a life over. It involves so much that I haven’t grasped it yet. It’s like I have not really landed. It’s the way I feel it. All of a sudden, I found myself putting things on my agenda, on my calendar, of things that I need to do one and functioning the same way that I used to. And so, I think that training my brain, it’s what I’m mostly focusing on as my only responsibility to be able to really make an impact for myself during this time.

But being here, it feels very strange. It feels like it’s a different person that came here and I don’t even have a sense of belonging like I used to, which, at first, you get sad about it, but at the same time, I think that it’s beautiful because you have grown. And now, you are more connected to different cultures and places. But I agree, it’s not often spoken and there is so much that goes into it.

Joseph: I know what you mean about feeling a bit out of place, even though it’s your home country.

Gisela: [30:07] Yeah.

Joseph: But when you’ve been away, you change a little bit and you see another way of living and another way of being. And then, going back, it can just feel a little bit surreal. I always have these weird out-of-body experiences when I go back to the United States. Where I feel like I’m this different person back in this environment that used to be very familiar to me. And now, it feels very foreign.

Gisela: [30:31] Yeah, it feels like that. But I’m also noticing something interesting. I realize I catch my brain always thinking, “Oh, I live here or I live there,” right? It’s like you have to pick sides. I’m here now, and this is what I need. But then, you start realizing it’s like, “No, I’m still from LA.” LA is also like a home. It’s just that my base right now, it’s here. But LA will be my second base. And so, we try to compartmentalize everything. And also, telling my brain and training my brain new things and new concepts of my new identity and my new lifestyle. I feel like this is helping me a little bit as well.

Joseph: The other thing you mentioned was this loss of an association with a big brand. I’ve been there myself, where you’re working for a well-established company, whether it’s Getty or Disney. How’s that been for you? I know you alluded to it earlier. But how do you reconcile now not being attached to those brands; and yet, it’s still a big part of your professional history?

Gisela: [31;31] Realistically, and full transparency, and honestly, it would have been way easier for me and more comfortable doing this interview. For example, when I was at Disney or at the Getty, with a name attached, and then you just talked about it. And getting out of the world and saying, “This is me. And yes, it’s my experience. But right now, I’m in this stage and my life is a mess.” I find this much more tricky.

Joseph: I’ve been there before myself. I feel very naked. Like I feel like I’ve got nothing to say about myself. Just because I’m not currently working for a well-known organization. I feel very exposed. It’s a strange feeling. I know you’re still figuring this out, but are you thinking that you want to work independently or that you want to return to the corporate world? Or is that still a question that you’re wrestling with right now?

Gisela: [32:20] I’m still trying to figure this out, and I’m allowing myself some space to do that. I enjoyed working in the corporate world mostly. I would definitely return once I recover and I think it’s the right time. But I want to take the chance and advantage of this situation where I have schedule restrictions because I’m prioritizing right now myself and exploring what would be like being an entrepreneur. If I could work solo and bring my expertise to the world in a different way, and see if this is something that I would like to do.

Luckily, here in Barcelona, and this just happened recently, I applied to one of those programs to help develop entrepreneurs. I submitted a project and it got selected. And so, right now, I’m going through this, starting this program for entrepreneurs to develop a project. I’m trying to see if this is something I would even like and explore that creative space for that purpose.

Joseph: There’s a lot of upside to having this transition where you’ve got some space and some head space to think about what exactly you want to do, which is a huge benefit of a transition. Before I talk about and finish up with some of the lessons you’ve learned along the way, I would be curious to hear if you could pinpoint or put your finger on, what’s the most difficult part of being in between jobs when you don’t exactly know what you want to do next?

Gisela: [33:53] Controlling your thoughts. Or at least, being aware of the thoughts that hit because they are driven by our fears. And gaining awareness of that and turning those thoughts around, for me, it’s the signature that honestly, I’m still failing. If I’m starting a podcast, for example, I want to talk about my podcast because I’m afraid for others to listen to me. Now, I’m adding this entrepreneurial program and you have to start doing a market analysis. I’m like, yes, but I’m terrified of going to speak to people because that seems like things are materializing and putting things to the world. It’s just there is a lot of mental load that we carry. That, to me, this is much more difficult than developing a business plan or developing anything else. It’s just switching the thoughts that we have because of our beliefs and because of society that has done a lot of damage to all of us.

Joseph: I have a lot of internal chatter, I would say. Compared to the average person. Like, I lay awake at night and I think about stuff or I think about, “Could I be doing things differently?” or “Should I have approached something differently?” “Should I take on this new project or not?” You’re right. I think a lot of it is just controlling those internal voices and quieting them a little bit because it can get really noisy up there.

The last thing I wanted to talk with you about — before we wrap up with what you are thinking about pursuing right now. I was speaking at an event last night. Someone came up to me afterwards and they were asking me about where I see well-being and health fitting into my professional priorities, which I thought was an interesting question. I was just wondering how do you think about that. Like, how do you think about where well-being and health and your own physical fitness? How does that fit into your overall priorities right now?

Gisela: [35:43] That’s something that’s so critical to keep in mind; one’s health. Unfortunately, we don’t always put that on our priority list. But, to me, this is number 1. So anything that I do needs to work around that first priority. Not the other way around of me trying to adjust to X or Y in able to achieve Z. It’s like, no, everything now needs to — at least, for a few months, needs to support my health physically and my mental health; like both, and it’s not easy. Sad to say that sometimes, this can even be a privilege in some way, depending on one’s personal circumstances. So I’m very appreciative of the possibility of being able to do this, even if it’s just a few months.

Joseph: Is there something that you wished you had discovered earlier on in your career that you have now discovered? Having gone through this transition and being in the middle of this transition.

Gisela: [36:43] I got to experience first-hand that anything is possible. And sometimes, even if we have a plan, if we are open and not very close-minded to a specific plan, sometimes, we can even have surprises and life can take us into something beyond even our expectations. To me, staying curious, always alert, we can spot opportunities that if we are not open or with that mindset, we could miss very easily. I’ve seen that over and over with myself; also, in my surroundings.

Joseph: Is there something in particular that you have learned about yourself as you have transitioned back home to Barcelona that you feel is important to share?

Gisela: [37:33] I traded a lot of comfort for learning. So I have a full back of learnings that I still feel like some of them, honestly, I have not even finished processing yet because I’ve been on the go and also in a survival mode for like a very long time to craft my career and my journey. Like, right now, it’s a good moment to integrate those learnings.

But I think that one of them is that, in my case, I experienced and I’ve seen that we are stronger than we believe we are, and that really goes a long way. Determination and persistence, all of these are clichés. But these are formulas that do work in most cases. And then, there is this conversation of, how much you need to push into something because, sometimes, it’s also a very good skill to have knowing until when we can push.

Joseph: Any advice you would give to your younger self, now that you’re back in Barcelona, figuring out the next stage of your career?

Gisela: [38:37] Putting more emphasis on my mental health in terms of managing anxiety. Learning about what anxiety is, and how it plays a role within each of us. As well as fear. Identify as early as I could, my fears. I wish I would have done that sooner.

In general, something that we always forget as well, is to understand our emotions and really work on all that. Part of that, at the end of the day, encompasses mental health.

Joseph: I want to wrap up with what you’re doing right now, Gisela. Could you just tell me a little bit more about “Creative Career Thinking,” which is the personal brand that you’re thinking about expanding, and perhaps writing about a little bit more? I know it’s still in its early days.

Gisela: [39:23] “Creative Career Thinking” is a brand that I started many years ago just to kind of try to separate the identity that we talked about our [voice 39:31] and work in corporate. And then, the engagements, or our [voice 39:37]like, or any activities that you do outside the corporate world. So I always enjoy giving talks and speaking in classes or conferences about career development. So, I’ve been doing sporadic activities for the last few years, and it’s still currently ongoing. Something that I have a lot of fun with. Currently, I’m finishing a book. That’s been a passion project for me about networking that speaks to the creative audience. So this has been something that I’ve been doing aside my jobs.

And now, that I have this time, I’m thinking if I should continue growing this brand. Although, I’m starting to think about a separate business plan. So like I said, my life is very messy. I don’t know what string to pull, but it’s like a part of different ingredients. I’m going to find out. Maybe in a few months, we’ll talk again and I’ll tell you which string did I pull.

Joseph: I think these things are all a bit of a work in progress. And until you test the waters with it, you never really know if it’s something that is going to be fruitful, if it’s something you’re going to enjoy, whether it’s something that’s going to really energize you. So I guess, yeah, all you can do is just try a whole bunch of different things and see what sticks sometimes.

Gisela: [40:55] And I’m also missing the corporate world already. But I’m trying to, again, tell my brain, “Are you missing it because it’s your habit?” Like, just really take the time and quiet that voice that always goes to our comfort.

Joseph: Well, thank you so much, Gisela, for telling us more about your former life as an HR professional in the corporate world, your international moves, and also your return to Barcelona. I wish you the very best of luck with “Creative Career Thinking,” and figuring out the next steps in your career. And also, of course, getting better and taking care of your health along the way. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts today, and hope to cross paths with you again soon.

Gisela: [41:37] Thank you again. I hope so. It’s been a pleasure.

Today marks our 100th episode of the Career Relaunch® podcast!🎉. For the past seven years, we’ve shared the personal stories of people around the world who have reinvented their careers, and today, I’m thrilled to have Anne Tumlinson, CEO of ATI Advisory and founder of Daughterhood, join us again on the show.

Anne was the very first guest I interviewed for this show over seven years ago before it even launched, and today, we’re going to talk about how her career and life have evolved since then. She’ll share her reflections on her journey as a founder turned CEO, the complex dynamics of growing your own organization, and the impact changes in her personal life have had on her outlook on life, career, and her own perspectives.

During a special Mental Fuel® segment, I’ll summarize my top takeaways from the nearly 100 guests I’ve featured on this show, including a montage of key highlights to help you understand the dynamics, challenges, and upside of changing career paths to pursue work you find truly meaningful.

During this episode’s Mental Fuel® segment, my challenge to you is to decide what choice you feel you could make for your career that you can be proud of. One that you’re confident you can look back on 10 years, 20 years from now, and not regret. What matters most to you right now during this chapter of your life and career? And what step will you take to honor this?

Anne Tumlinson and I have known each other for over 20 years. As one of the very first managers I had after I dropped out of medical school, she played an instrumental role in helping me navigate my first big career transition in my early 20s. She was also the very first person I ever interviewed for this show seven years ago, and she continues to possess a wealth of personal and professional insights that I and many of our listeners have found so useful.

She currently advises the nation’s top public and private leaders in healthcare as the Founder and Board Chair of Daughterhood, a non-profit national community that connects family caregivers with each other for support and information. She also serves on the non-profit board for Mary’s Center, an FQHC, and the Board of Directors for Bluestone Physician Services and Harmony @ Home. Anne is a member of the National Academy of Social Insurance and was named an Influencer in Aging by Next Avenue.

Anne spent her early career working in government, first in the office of Congressman John Lewis (D-GA) and then at the Office of Management and Budget. She joined the private consulting firm Avalere Health in 2000, growing and leading the firm’s provider practice and developing its first business intelligence product.

If you have any lingering thoughts, questions, or topics you would like covered in future episodes, record a voicemail for me right here. I LOVE hearing from listeners!

Vista Social is a versatile, time-saving tool to manage all your social media accounts in one place. You can easily create, schedule, optimise, and publish content directly to multiple social media profiles from one simple dashboard. I actually use it myself to manage all my online profiles.

Thanks to Reeve for producing the music for this special 100th episode and to Electrocardiogram for composing the Career Relaunch® podcast theme music.

Joseph: Well, hello again, Anne. I am very excited to have you back on the Career Relaunch Podcast. Welcome back to the show.

Anne: [05:00] Thank you. It’s exciting to be back.

Joseph: The last time we spoke was a few weeks ago actually over dinner when I was in D.C., so we did manage to catch up a little bit. Before that, the last time we recorded a conversation between the two of us was way back in 2016. I’m not sure if you remember this, but you were the very first person I interviewed for the show.

Anne: [05:24] I do.

Joseph: Because the podcast hadn’t even launched. It did eventually launch with your episode being one of the first. Exactly seven years ago in September 2016.

Anne: [05:34] It was thrilling because you did such a good job with it, and you made that beautiful illustration.

Joseph: You were featured in the trailer, yes.

Anne: [05:44] That was pretty neat to see that come to life so creatively.

Joseph: Probably, the show may not have happened without you. Just to go back in time. So now, this is now the 100th episode.

Anne: [05:54] Wow.

Joseph: Yeah. I thought it’d be very fitting to have the very first person I interviewed on the show to come back and to share your story again, just to check in on how things are going.

Anne: [06:05] That’s awesome. We’ve really been on this journey together.

Joseph: Definitely. This is going to be a little bit of a different chat from other episodes. Because I guess the idea here is for us to have a bit of a conversation about how things are going for you and for me, and seven years after that chat we had back in 2016. At the time, on your end, you had just launched off on your own. You had just begun developing the concept of Daughterhood. You were a solopreneur. And now, you’re a CEO overseeing a whole team at ATI Advisory.

For me, I was about three years into running my own business. Beginning my shift from one-on-one coaching to more content creation and public speaking. I wasn’t a father then, I am now. Your kids were living at home. They’re in a completely different phase now. So, a lot of change for both of us.

I was hoping that we could organize this chat in the past, present, and future, where you were, what you’ve experienced along the way, and what’s next for you. Maybe you should go first here. Let’s just go back in time. Can you try to mentally transport yourself back to 2016? What do you recall you were focused on at the time? Maybe we should start with the personal. What was your family life like in 2016? What was going on with you personally? And then, we’ll get to the professional in a second.

Anne: [07:23] In 2016, I called myself a single mom. I was co-parenting with my ex-husband, so it wasn’t I was in it all by myself. Certainly, I was the head of the household that I live in and the sole earner with two teenage children, 16 and 13. We were looking at colleges for my oldest child. Now, she has made her way all the way through college. She has graduated, and she is fully employed. My youngest is in college. So, I’m in a really different place in parenting. And, I got married in 2018.

Joseph: Do I have this right? Your separation had not happened that long before we recorded our episode in 2016? Do I have that right?

Anne: [08:15] Yeah. I separated in 2011 and was divorced in 2012. If you’ve never been through anything like that, this may sound weird. If you have, it will ring true. It was a 15-year marriage. It takes a long time to reset from that and get to your new normal. I definitely wasn’t quite in it yet. I was still trying to figure out who I was in the world without a spouse. When you’re married, it’s really hard to imagine just how much your identity starts to absorb being in that partnership. I was like, “Who am I in my personal world, and who am I in my professional world?”

In the middle of all that, I quit my job and started my own enterprise, so to speak, which had two parts to it. One was supporting myself through independent consulting, business-to-business. And then, the other was developing this platform. I didn’t really know what it was going to become, but I knew I wanted to start to form a relationship with family caregivers who were taking care of their parents and have an interchange of ideas across this transom. That’s them in their day-to-day experiences, and me with my expertise, and for people who are listing my expertise as in aging and health policy.

Joseph: How did you get interested in this aging topic? I know we haven’t talked a lot about your own parents that much. I am curious how did this end up being your focus.

Anne: [09:56] It’s so funny you asked that question. Just as a quick aside, my kids are now in their 20s. They and their friends are all in the very beginning stages of, “What do I want to do with my life?” I have a lot of 20-somethings standing in my kitchen. One of them was there last night at 11 o’clock, asking me. He’s pre-med. He’s like, “How did you end up here, in doing what you’re doing?” They’re always interested in that story. He just asked me that last night. I was always drawn to the phase of life that is the last phase of life. I can’t explain why. Even as an undergraduate, I did my work or my psychology undergraduate degree on the last phase of life and aging.

And then, my very first job out of college was on Capitol Hill working as a congressional aid to Congressman John Lewis from Atlanta, Georgia, who was on the Aging Committee and then on a health subcommittee. And so, I was able to jump right into that and I loved it. I love policy because I like the challenge of all of the different systemic parts and how do you think about systems. I also really like, in reason I started Daughterhood was because I felt I was missing that — you can’t really work on a system we don’t understand how it’s affecting people on the ground, on a day-to-day basis. Joseph, you were right there with me in 2014, when I was going through all of this. Just really in the heart of the struggle, so to speak. You held my hand and walked me across the bridge into entrepreneurship.

Joseph: I remember that. That was a surreal moment for me. For people who don’t know this, you were my manager actually. You’re one of my very first managers I think, in full-time employment for me. This is after I dropped out of medical school. I was trying to figure out my life. I was one of those kids “who were kind of in your kitchen,” who was trying to figure out what to do next.

Anne: [12:11] Yeah.

Joseph: And then, we started working together professionally when I was a coach. I had just started off in 2013, so about a year into that. You’re one of my first clients, which was weird.

Anne: [12:24] I know.

Joseph: Kind of flip for me to be in the role of coach for who had been one of my coaches early on. That was really rewarding and really just a special, unique relationship I think that we’ve had.

Anne: [12:41] It is. It was for me as well. The second we started to talk, you’d call me I think just to let me know. I was like, “Oh. Oh, this is what I need. Could you help me?”

Joseph: I remember sitting in your office when I was your direct report in Washington, D.C. I remember you telling me about your kids at the time. This one, I was in my early 20s. And so, another major change I think for you, Anne, was in 2016, both your kids were at home.

Anne: [13:13] Yeah. Now, they’ve grown up.

Joseph: Where are they now, and how has that change been for you?

Anne: [13:19] In 2016, my oldest was just looking at colleges. And now, she’s fully graduated from college and is in her first professional role working at the National Institutes for Mental Health, doing work she really likes. That’s a small miracle really, when you think about how hard it is to find work right out of college. She actually still lives with me because she’s saving money. All good Gen Z’ers have to do I think in this day and age.

And then, my son is a rising junior at Emory University. He lives there or he’s getting ready to go on foreign study. My house feels full right now because it’s the summer and he’s home. And so, even though they’re here though, my relationship with them is completely different because they’re adults. I still see them. We spend time together. But, I only get involved in their lives when they ask me to. That’s drawing all these new boundaries, trying to figure out the relationship, and how to be a parent to an adult, that has been mind-blowing.

Joseph: That must be surreal. I’ve got a 5-year-old daughter, coming up on 6. So, I guess roughly maybe the age of Grace when you and I worked together in D.C. I’ve always been curious what’s it like the day after, in your case, both of your kids are off to college and your house is empty. Do you remember that day?

Anne: [14:52] Yeah. I had a much tougher time when my oldest left. Because that was the moment when I was going from one phase of life to another. When my son left, I felt more prepared for it. Honestly, I enjoyed it. I got remarried in 2018. Just about the time that my son — he lived here for a couple of years after I got remarried, and then he went off to college. So, it was enjoyable for me to be able to be in my home alone with my new husband. There was a lot of relationships still to discover and enjoy, getting to know each other in that environment.

That was a nice distraction from having the bittersweetness of watching your children leave you, which is what they’re supposed to do, but it is still — bittersweet is the only word I can think of to describe it. It’s an incredible privilege to watch them go out. It’s thrilling to watch them go discover themselves, and go through all of the exciting things that they get to go through as young adults out in the world but it is also heartbreaking because your relationship with them is not the same. They don’t need you as much. The intimacy is to a certain extent diminished. That beautiful intimacy that you have with a 5-year-old, where you’re in there still in that magical, that 5-year-old is still in the world of magic.

Joseph: Yes.

Anne: [16:36] I will say this for all of you who have youngsters is that, what helped me a lot was that I had no regrets. I had worked very hard and I devoted myself a lot to my career. I also really had done everything I wanted to do with my children. I read all the books. We went on all the trips. We had all of the movie nights and the popcorn nights. I felt, as sad as I was, there wasn’t anything that I could have done differently to have gotten any less sad.

Joseph: I know.

Anne: [17:17] Life is just full of these, as now that I’m 56, just full of these transitions after transition after transition after transition. Just when you think something is one way, it changes. One other fact that in these last seven years is that also my parents went from being incredibly independent to my father getting very sick and died. And now, my mom is in her 80s and living in an independent living community. My kids are transitioning. My parents are transitioning. My business was transitioning. So, not boring.

Joseph: I know that there’s a lot in there to unpack. I mean, this is a career show, so I would be interested in —

Anne: [17:58] Yes.

Joseph: Before we talk about the evolution of everything that’s happened to you over time, can you remember in 2016 just factoring in everything you just mentioned about the difference that was happening? Your kids are getting older, you have come out of one relationship, you’re just starting your business. What were some of your biggest concerns at the time? If you can remember back to 2016.

Anne: [18:21] I was just concerned about paying the bills. That’s not the only one, but I think one of my primary concerns was money, just money. I was scared. I didn’t have any visibility into whether or not the business would be there. Maybe there’d be three or four months. Anybody who’s done consulting knows how this is, or professional services of any kind. You will have this onslaught of work. If you’re on your own, you have to do it all yourself. And then, all of a sudden, there won’t be any work. Instead of just enjoying the moment of break, you’re worrying.

Joseph: You’re panicked.

Anne: [19:03] About where that business is. You’re either freaking out because you worry about execution risk, or you’re freaking out because you’re worrying about whether or not there’s enough business. By the way, that has not changed.

Joseph: Right. I think that does happen.

Anne: [19:19] I’m still there.

Joseph: I still have that a lot. I’m now a decade into doing this work. I wouldn’t say it keeps me up at night, but I definitely have this productive paranoia. I don’t even know if it’s productive. Sometimes, this is unproductive paranoia about what would happen if all the clients I now work with, what if they all went away, which a version of that happened to me in 2020 with speaking engagements. And so, I think as a business owner, you never take for granted, the business that you do have coming in.

One thing I know that has really changed for you since we spoke was, at the time, you were a solopreneur and you’re, as you described, thinking where the next client’s going to come from. And now, you have a team of over 20, I think. Is it like 20?

Anne: [20:04] Thirty.

Joseph: Thirty now. Okay. You got 30 people you’re managing, whom you’ve hired. How did you make that decision? At what point did you feel like, “I need to bring somebody on”?

Anne: [20:17] I was doing a lot of work that I am actually not that good at or efficient. I felt like wasn’t great service to the client. So, they’re paying me a rate that is encompassing of all of my expertise and my time in the planet, and I’m spending hours dealing with the spreadsheet or a PowerPoint slide deck. I contemplated a couple different models, it’s not uncommon to contract some of those things out through a 1099 relationship, or a contracting relationship. But, to get the constancy and consistency in service and delivery, I wasn’t that I thought, “Oh, this has to grow by some amount.” It was more that I felt if I didn’t do that, I was always going to be in a a scarcity mindset. I don’t want to be in a scarcity mindset. I want to be in a, “We have plenty of resources. We can do this. We’ve got what we need.” And so, there’s also the serendipity of their own.

Then, there’s this person who is looking for a job, and I’ve worked with her before, and I knew what she could do. I was like, “She could really help me.” Another very interesting thing happened. Because obviously, if you’re worrying about money, and then you’re hiring somebody.

Joseph: You’ve got to pay these people.

Anne: [21:40] Now, you got payroll. I had a mentor who was a very wealthy individual, and he’d taken an interest in the work that we were doing in my career, which was nice. He called me and he said, “I will be your safety net for a while. So, if you need some money you can come to me.” What he said was — this is the awesome thing. He goes, “I don’t want you to have any excuse not to do this.”

Joseph: Wow.

Anne: [22:19] By the way, P.S. I could not get a line of credit at the bank. He was going to be my bank. And so, I took it and it worked out great. And then, in 2017, I hired a second person. Then, in 2018 was a slow year. It was a tough year. I thought, “This might not work.” I think we even talked about this in 2016, and that’s normal.

Joseph: I’m still solo. I do contract out with independent freelancers to help me with this show and some other things, but I don’t have any employees. One of the challenging things for me is just my bandwidth, and that is because I’m by myself. I have been resistant to bringing anybody else on board. And so, I’ve just dealt with that scarcity that you have mentioned, and just sometimes turning away stuff.

Anne: [23:08] That’s okay.

Joseph: But, yeah, it’s a trade-off. It’s a trade-off.

Anne: [23:09] Yeah. That’s exactly right. Some businesses are meant to scale the way that I’m scaling, and some businesses are meant to be sort of the individual level. Everybody makes a big deal out of scaling, “Scaling is everything,” it’s not. It’s just not. It comes with an enormous number of headaches. I will say — and this is where I think you and I are quite different. A theme in my whole life has been, a little bit of a leaping without looking.

Joseph: Just go for it, yeah.

Anne: [23:44] Yeah. I get impatient with the analytic piece of things. Whereas, you have so much patience and you’ll look and consider all angles. At a certain point, I’m like, “I don’t have the patience.” I can’t play chess or checkers. I don’t have the patience for that level of anticipating every move. I just go for it. The outcome of that is that sometimes there’s wonderful rewards on their side. But also, that I end up going, “I can’t believe I did that.”

Joseph: It actually worked out.

Anne: [24:20] I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but here I am.

Joseph: Well, let’s talk a little bit about what you have observed, and maybe what has been on your mind lately after thinking about the evolution of your life, and also your business over the past seven years. What do you feel is going really well right now for you? And then, we’ll talk about the challenges in a second. What’s working and what’s going on for you right now?

Anne: [24:46] Taking my life as a totality right now, I feel very solid. My mother, my mother-in-law are going through their last stage of life in their 80s. My children are going through a time of change. I feel I’m well-equipped, mentally and physically, to be solid. Be the solid center of their lives and my life, and it feels great.

From a business perspective, what I have discovered is that I am really enjoying working on building a business. As opposed to working in the business, I very much still enjoy consulting. I enjoy the clients and the work that we’re doing in the subject matter. But also, the learning. Not just learning about business, but learning about I’m always motivated by the challenge of stepping into the role of CEO. I had to actually write down what my job was and post it on my board because I didn’t know. What does a CEO do? I had to think about, “Oh, I’m in charge of setting the strategy in the direction for the company, finding the resources people in talent, and solving the big problems.”

Joseph: That’s a good list.

Anne: [26:13] Those are my big three. Trusting people that you hire and not getting too into the weeds with their work and what they’re doing. And so, it’s been great. I don’t know that I’ve nailed it, but I think that it is exciting to be able to grow. It’s exciting to find out what you’re capable of. I think it’s iterative, you’re not capable until you put yourself in the position, and then you learn how to be capable. And then, you’re like, “Oh god!”

Joseph: Yes. You almost have to do it.

Anne: [26:44] I think a lot of people wait for the capability to come before they attempt it, but that doesn’t work that way.

Joseph: Yeah. It’s very chicken or egg, isn’t it? Because you want to have the skills before you go out there if you don’t embarrass yourself. At the same time, you have to go out there and do it to develop the skill set. I remember, early on, I think I gave a TED Talk. It was in 2014, and that was one of the first talks I gave, which got me thinking about shifting from doing more one-on-one coaching to more public speaking. It wasn’t my best talk, but it got me out there and it got me starting to think about that, to experience what it’s like to do that. It is very hard to decide what’s going to be my first move in this particular space and when will I feel comfortable doing it. You’re right. I think it does need to happen just before you feel completely ready. Otherwise, you’ll never do it.

Anne: [27:39] One hundred percent. There was a moment in my life very, very early on when I learned to overcome that feeling of shame or embarrassment for putting yourself out there. It was a similar formative moment in my life. Actually, to do with my dad and the advice he gave me in a social situation. It was very formative. I realized, “Oh, you can survive it. You can fall on your face in front of a lot of people and be fine.” That lodged itself in my subconscious. And so, I have been more willing than I think most people to have a more public failure, which isn’t to say that I don’t absolutely dread it.

Joseph: Yeah, it’s not fun. That’s not the best time of your life.

Anne: [28:32] You have to learn to tolerate it.

Joseph: Yes. What have you found most challenging over the past few years? What have you struggled with? Whether it’s related to the scaling of your business or just running an independent consultancy, versus being an employee, or anything in your personal life, what’s been the toughest?

Anne: [28:52] The theme that has been very challenging across personal and professional has been relationships. I don’t mean client relationships. When you scale quickly in your life, relationships change. I feel the same person. I’m the same person. But, I am seven years older, and I have grown children, and I have a parent who needs care, and I have a business that’s 30 people and growing quickly, and it has a lot of visibility out in the public space and a non-profit platform that also has visibility.

And so, even within the business, just how people perceive you and what you are doing and what you say to them and you go from having these intimate, maybe this is the theme. Your children are little, and it’s very intimate. You’re in a small organization or you’re an employee with a team. It’s pretty intimate when you grow an organization. When you grow, sometimes, those bonds tend to fray. The role change. The sort of perceived elevation or distance, what it does is then, it has the potential to damage trust. Everybody has their issues, and their insecurities, and their desires, and they’re all colliding against each other in this organization now.

So, the biggest challenge is, “How do I set up the infrastructure?” That human resources infrastructure, and the clarity around roles, and the clarity around expectations, and values, and mission, and that’s all quite challenging. I, in fact, hired somebody with expertise in human resources because I realized I was way out, way out over my skis.

Joseph: Yeah. It’s more complicated than it can seem. Initially, you feel like, “I’ll hire these people and I’ll just work it out.” It can be complicated.

Anne: [31:01] No. You just can’t even imagine all of the different things that come out. I mean, it’s just mind-blowing.

Joseph: I’d also be interested in maybe talking through some of the things that you mentioned to me back in 2016, to revisit these ideas that you had at the time. I went back and, as you know, I was just in Chicago a couple of days ago. On the plane ride over there, I was listening to our old episode. One of the things that you mentioned to me was the idea that your self-worth was driven by your last full-time employer, versus your value coming from your own skills and knowledge and experiences.

I was just curious how you now think about your value. Maybe this ties into what you’re just talking about, about your evolving role in your organization. How do you think about those days when you were full-time employed versus now running your own organization?

Anne: [31:54] It’s still a challenge. Maybe the lesson is that you never stop questioning your value. Once the consultancy started to pick up steam and got off the ground, and there was 10 of us, or 12 of us, maybe I felt pretty secure. I was like, “I was doing a lot of consulting. I was helping people learn. I was teaching. We were coming up to speed.” Maybe there’s a break from having to question it.

But then, a funny thing happened. Just I hired these amazingly talented people who are smarter than me and better at it than I am, and if the business is going to operate well, I got to get out of their way. And so, there was a period of time, and it’s still going on, where I think, “What do I have to offer this organization?”

I think I may have told you when we had dinner, I have a really great friend and coach now, Gretchen Alkema, I was her grand team and she was in a foundation. And then, she left and she started her own enterprise. I brought many of the lessons and I told her about our conversations. And now, she’s out on her own doing strengths-based coaching. She’s like, “Your job now is to tell everybody where you’re going.” I was like, “Oh crap! That I have to know!”

The value question is just ever-present. I think that might just be either my insecurity or maybe that’s just how we all are. We, as people, as humans, we want to be valuable. Sometimes, I jump in, and I’ll edit papers, or I’ll look at deliverables, and offer suggestions. I feel really valuable when I’m doing that.

Joseph: Right.

Anne: [33:50] How are we going to grow the business? I’m like, “I don’t know if I know how to do this.” I’m still questioning.

Joseph: Figuring it out as you go.

Anne: [33:59] Yeah.

Joseph: One of the things that you mentioned to me also in 2016, was that a lot of progress is just about showing off.

Anne: [34:05] Yeah.

Joseph: Do you still believe that?

Anne: [34:07] Yes. You know that feeling of panic? I’m sure you feel this way, too. I assume you do. Which is that the nice thing about getting a few years under your belt is that when you get into a trough from a business perspective, you can look back, you don’t have a history.

Joseph: Yeah.

Anne: [34:22] You can say, “Oh, look. There were five other troughs that always works out.” And that, this showing up thing and wrestling, just like I have a lot more faith now I think about this value question that if I just wrestle with it, the next thing will unfold. Then, shining your flashlight on just the next right step, it’s still scary. I could make a big mistake, make a bad decision, and it will affect a lot of people. I can only just do the best that I can. Showing up is everything. Consistency is everything.

Joseph: I don’t know if you know this, but I featured a little clip from your discussion with me back in 2016. When you said that just because something is hard, it doesn’t mean you’re failing.

Anne: [35:08] Yeah.

Joseph: It’s less about talent and more about commitment and consistency. I think word for word, that is what you said. Because I play it a lot for people. Do you still believe that?

Anne: [35:17] Oh, yeah. I get a lot of nice positive reinforcement now from the outside world. You can almost hear the tape playing in their head like, “I don’t know that I would have ever thought you could do this.” Me either! Me either. The only difference between me and the many, many phenomenal people who aren’t creating and building their own companies is that I just do it. I just do it. There is an element of taking risks. I do think that I have a tolerance for risk. It’s not about being particularly smart, or particularly talented. It’s about being willing to put yourself out there and just keep going.

Joseph: Well, this ties into the last thing I was hoping to talk with you about before we wrap up with what’s next for you. It was this idea that you shared with me about how the universe tends to respond when you open yourself up to change. As you just mentioned, just going for it and doing it. I am just curious to hear what you think of that. Now, when you think about your personal life — I guess I’ll just direct you to one idea here, which is just the fact you’re now remarried, but also anything in your professional life. How do you think about this idea of opening yourself up to change and putting yourself out there for that potential change?

Anne: [36:47] I just believe in this, there’s a momentum in the larger fabric of the universe. There’s momentum. That our jobs are really just to start the momentum, and that you can put things in motion. I should just say, because I do strengths-based work with [unintelligible], and my top five strengths: ideation and activation, are among my top five. So, it’s easy for me to say, having an idea putting it in motion, having an idea, putting emotion. My biggest challenge sometimes is just actually to not put an idea in motion because there’s enough things in motion right now.

Joseph: I’ve got a lot of ideas.

Anne: [37:31] Not going to start playing the flute again, nope. Having those strings has allowed me to observe that when you put something in motion, and you put a little bit of muscle behind it, and you commit to it, physics law here where then it picks up steam. There’s going to be things that are going to come along that are going to facilitate that. It’s really cumulative. I’m seeing things happen now in my world that I would never have ever imagined. Like big companies coming and saying, “We want to acquire you.” It’s amusing actually.

Joseph: I bet, yeah.

Anne: [38:15] They know getting to what’s next, that’s not what I’m interested in. But, it’s a signal that there’s this momentum. Because what I’ve been doing is just, hands down, doing the work. I think you said this to me, and I still have it on my bulletin board. Yes, you did, Joseph. You said this to me.

Joseph: I’m curious what this is.

Anne: [38:34] Doing the ‘20-mile march’ every day.

Joseph: Oh, right. Yes. The Jim Collins concept.

Anne: [38:40] Yeah.

Joseph: From his “Great by Choice” book.

Anne: [38:41] I wrote down in 2016, I still have; anything truly great will take at least five to 10 years to build. At some level, “This might not work” is the heart of all important projects.

Joseph: Things do take time. It’s very easy to just give up when you aren’t getting the traction that you want. One of my issues is just having such high expectations of what I think is going to happen tomorrow, and it doesn’t pan out that way. And then, I get disappointed by it. And then, the problem is that you might give up on it.

Anne: [39:13] Right!

Joseph: Or, you’re 99 percent of the way there, and right when you’re about to turn a corner, you drop it.

Anne: [39:17] I have had some disappointments. Daughterhood, which is the non-profit platform. Joseph, I did not become as famous as Oprah. Remember? Do you remember me saying, “I want to be like Oprah for caregiving?”

Joseph: I remember, yes. I want to talk about Daughterhood! Yeah, I do remember that you had a certain vision for it.

Anne: [39:37] It’s not so much about not doing what you’re doing, but about reframing your expectations.

Joseph: Yes. I know one of the things you mentioned to me also at the time was, and I’ll just ask you the same question again today. If you were to give your advice to your younger self, one of the things you said was about suffering less. I’m wondering what your perspective is on this now. Is there any sort of advice you might share with Anne in 2016 when you were in the earlier days of starting and running your business?

Anne: [40:06] You’ve got everything you need. You’re not missing anything. I think that I’ve lived a lot of my life thinking that I wasn’t smart enough or talented enough. But, my strengths, your unique constellation of gifts is enough. It’s enough to do the things that are meaningful to you, and that’s all that matters. So, it’s not about success, as it’s defined by the world. It’s more about what it is that you want to get up every morning and do. You would absolutely have everything that it takes to do what’s meaningful to you on a day-to-day basis. There’s no question. Everybody does. I think that’s what I would say. Just remind myself that you are enough.

Joseph: Well, I want to wrap up with what you are doing now. I know there are all sorts of things we could talk about. I’m probably most interested in what you just mentioned. At the time you had just launched Daughterhood Circles back in 2016, or you’re thinking about the idea of it, which was to provide women with these resources to care for their aging parents. How did you envision that going, and how has it gone, and what’s next for it? I know there’s a lot of questions wrapped up in that one question.

Anne: [41:25] For people who don’t live in the United States listening to this podcast, we have a very broken system for supporting older adults and their families when their ability to function in their day-to-day life starts to diminish. They need support and services. There’s no front door to a system. There’s no front door to a front door. It’s just you’re really on your own. So, the idea behind that these grassroots circles formed by volunteers in every community was that they would serve as the sort of peer-to-peer coaching, and support, and connection to resources. Like, who better to tell you where you can go for things and people who’ve been through it.

It turns out that trying to scale a grassroots volunteer-led organization that is highly disaggregated or disparate across the country is really, really hard. And, people still don’t know the answers to those questions. We really, really flailed for many years in trying to build this network of circles at the local level. We had a handful of really high-performing ones. We had a bunch that didn’t ever get off the ground. Eventually, we’ve pivoted.

My father’s death in COVID coincided with really pushing me into a new approach, which is a virtual circle platform, and making it more topic-based. And then, we’re now getting ready to launch a whole new way of connecting our community to resources at the local level that will give them the resources they need to get going. We are moving it into a non-profit and getting the 501(c)(3) designation that will enable us to hopefully raise some money and truly scale. There are a couple of relationships that broke up between myself and some of our leaders and volunteers that were really excruciatingly painful for me.

Joseph: I guess whenever you’re going through these moments of change and evolution, it’s hard to keep every relationship intact in a positive way. Just there are so many important parts.

Anne: [43:39] Yeah. You fail people. You can’t meet everybody’s expectations for everything all the time. Sometimes, they’re coming from a place that you couldn’t control it even if you wanted to. Like, you could trust yourself under a pretzel and they would still — doesn’t have anything to do with you.

Joseph: Yes.

Anne: [43:57] But, it’s still painful. I’m really excited that I have an incredible partner now, and all of this somebody who sort of appeared at the right time to help me turn this next phase into a reality, and that’s made all the difference.

Joseph: Last question then for you, Anne, because I do want to end on a positive note here because it sounds like you’ve gone through so much change, and you’ve grown your organization, your life has changed over the past seven years, both personally and professionally.

At the beginning of our chat today, you mentioned that little animated trailer that I put together to launch this podcast a few years ago. In that trailer, we featured something you said at the time about how you wished you had known just how amazing it is to be in the process of doing something new. What has been the most rewarding part of your career change journey?

Anne: [44:48] It’s still the creation of something that is not lived in the world before. I mentioned this at the beginning, working on the business. Probably, a little bit more of a big picture way of saying that is, getting up every morning, getting to think about what’s next. For me, it’s 100 percent about creativity. But, you have to have all of the business fundamentals there, and you have to have all the right people who know how to execute. I mean, there’s a lot of things that go into it.

But, when I’m really in the zone, when I’m really feeling great, it’s when I’m thinking about, “We’re going to be a 50 percent business in a year and a half, and here are the things that we’re going to be doing, and here’s the content we’re going to put out around that, and the reports we’re going to write, and the money we’re going to raise for Daughterhood.” Just being able to not just have the idea and not just activate it, but then move it along and see it appear in the world. It’s my art. I’m not an artist. I’m a terrible artist. A terrible musician. I’m a really bad gardener. All of those things, but this is my art. And so, for me, it’s a creative process and that’s what gets me up in the morning. It makes it all worthwhile.

Joseph: Thank you so much for chatting with me again today and about your journey.

Anne: [46:13] Thank you for having me.

Joseph: Yeah. You’ve gone from independent consultants to now, the CEO of your own advisory firm. Your life has changed so much over the past few years. I appreciate you sharing with me and everybody else what you’ve learned along the way. Thanks for joining me on this very special 100th episode of the show.

Anne: [46:31] Woo-hoo!

Joseph: Also, for your willingness to record that chat with me way back in 2016 that really planted the first seed to get this podcast off the ground.

Anne: [46:39] Joseph, you’ve done amazing work. You’ve helped so many people along the way. So, huge congratulations to you as well.

Joseph: Thank you.

Anne: [46:48] I’m reflecting that actually. There’s a little bit of a container for us to have this conversation that is important. We need to do this. We need to have a way to go, “Okay.” Gosh, I didn’t realize. I got married, my dad died, my kids grew up and left the home, the business grew. All in seven years. I don’t think I fully reflected on all that. So, thank you.

Joseph: Of course, of course.

Anne: [47:14] I really appreciate it.

Joseph: Thank you for sharing it all with me, too. Yeah, it’s just nice that we can stay in touch after all these years. How long is it? It’s 20 years now.

Anne: [47:22] Well, we’ll be in touch for the rest of our lives.

Joseph: I hope so, yeah. I hope so. Well, in the meantime, best of luck with your work at ATI Advisory, the future of Daughterhood, and of course, the rest of your life there in D.C.

Anne: [47:34] Thanks.

Joseph: Hope to talk with you again soon, Anne.

Anne: [47:36] Okay.