Catalyst with Shayle Kann

Editor’s note: The uncertainties of data center construction — like when, where, and how much to build — are as pressing as ever. So we’re revisiting a conversation with Brian Janous, co-founder and chief commercial officer at data center developer Cloverleaf Infrastructure. In this episode, he explains his theory of the ‘Watt-Bit Spread’, which offers insightful heuristics for understanding how data centers are driving change in the power sector.

Every data center company is after one thing right now: power. Electricity used to be an afterthought in data center construction, but in the AI arms race access to power has become critical because more electrons means more powerful AI models.

But how and when these companies will get those electrons is unclear. Utilities have been inundated with new load requests, and it takes time to build new capacity.

Given these uncertainties, how do data center companies make the high-stakes decisions about how much to build? How sustainable is the rate of construction? And how much will these data center companies pay for electricity?

In this episode, Shayle talks to Brian Janous, co-founder and chief commercial officer at data center developer Cloverleaf Infrastructure. Brian recently explained how he thinks about these questions in a LinkedIn post titled “The Watt-Bit Spread,” which argues that the value of watts is incredibly high right now, and the cost of those watts is too low. Shayle and Brian cover topics like:

The unclear data center demand and high costs that are making data center companies hesitant to build

How the skills required for data center development have shifted from real estate and fiber to energy

Why higher power prices are needed to incentivize new generation

Potential solutions for better pricing electricity and speeding up the construction of new generation

Recommended resources

Latitude Media: AES exec on data center load: 'It's like nothing we’ve ever seen'

Latitude Media: Mapping the data center power demand problem, in three charts

Latitude Media: Are we thinking about the data center energy problem in the right ways?

Catalyst: Can chip efficiency slow AI's energy demand?

Catalyst: Under the hood of data center power demand

Sequoia Capital: AI’s $600B Question

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a solar and energy storage development and procurement platform helping clients make optimal decisions, saving significant time, money, and reducing risk. Subscribers instantly access pricing, product, and supplier data. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is supported by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform by visiting energyhub.com.

Catalyst is brought to you by Antenna Group, the public relations and strategic marketing agency of choice for climate and energy leaders. If you're a startup, investor, or global corporation that's looking to tell your climate story, demonstrate your impact, or accelerate your growth, Antenna Group's team of industry insiders is ready to help. Learn more at antennagroup.com.

The PJM capacity auction this month broke records with sky-high wholesale power prices — and that was by design. Under PJM’s auction rules, tight supply raises prices, incentivizing the development of new generation and encouraging existing generation to stay online. The big driver of that tight supply? Data-center driven load growth. The independent system operator covers Virginia, one of the densest and fastest-growing regions for data center development.

So will higher wholesale prices incentivize enough generation to meet load growth without provoking the public with higher bills? 

In this episode, Shayle talks to Steve Piper, research director of North American power and renewables at S&P Global. Steve and Shayle cover topics like:

Resources:

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a solar and energy storage development and procurement platform helping clients make optimal decisions, saving significant time, money, and reducing risk. Subscribers instantly access pricing, product, and supplier data. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is supported by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform by visiting energyhub.com.

Catalyst is brought to you by Antenna Group, the public relations and strategic marketing agency of choice for climate and energy leaders. If you're a startup, investor, or global corporation that's looking to tell your climate story, demonstrate your impact, or accelerate your growth, Antenna Group's team of industry insiders is ready to help. Learn more at antennagroup.com.

The job of an EV battery is unforgiving. If its performance slips too far — say, lost acceleration or range — it's probably off to the recycling heap. That’s even though it may have plenty of usable life, if only for something less demanding than powering a vehicle.

Grid storage is theoretically a gentler job, involving slower discharging and more careful management. Still, repurposing isn’t easy. It requires dealing with a mishmash of various makes, models, and levels of quality. And it means competing against the falling price of new, purpose-built storage systems. 

But a few companies have said they’ve figured it out, including Redwood Materials, which supplied a second-life data center microgrid this year. 

So how does second-life storage on the grid actually work?

In this episode, Shayle talks to Colin Campbell, chief technology officer of battery recycler Redwood Materials. Colin explains how, in just the past year, the company has found cost-effective ways to repurpose batteries before recycling them. Shayle and Colin cover topics like:

What has changed to make repurposing profitable, including better software management and high-volume, low-cost supply

Why, for Redwood, second-life batteries only need a short lifespan to be worth it 

Why second-life systems are especially well-suited for long-duration storage

What it takes to compete with the falling prices of new LFP systems

Resources:

Latitude Media: Crusoe and Redwood Materials are powering a data center with old EV batteries

Latitude Media: Millions of EV batteries could retire on solar farms

Latitude Media: The challenging economics of battery recycling

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a solar and energy storage development and procurement platform helping clients make optimal decisions, saving significant time, money, and reducing risk. Subscribers instantly access pricing, product, and supplier data. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is supported by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform by visiting energyhub.com.

Catalyst is brought to you by Antenna Group, the public relations and strategic marketing agency of choice for climate and energy leaders. If you're a startup, investor, or global corporation that's looking to tell your climate story, demonstrate your impact, or accelerate your growth, Antenna Group's team of industry insiders is ready to help. Learn more at antennagroup.com.

The One Big Beautiful Bill (OBBB) complicates things. Together with a related executive order, it dismantled key parts of the Inflation Reduction Act, while also injecting uncertainty into tax credit eligibility. The uncertainty in particular throws a wrench into project planning and leaves big questions about the impact across climate tech. 

So what do we know about the complexities of the new policy landscape? And what questions still need answers?

In this episode, Shayle talks to his colleague Andy Lubershane, partner at Energy Impact Partners and the firm’s head of research. They cover five topics:

The foreign entity of concern provision and why Andy calls it the biggest unresolved issue

Safe harbor and under construction guidance

Tax credit disparities in coming years — tax credits for nuclear, geothermal, and CCS, not solar and wind — and how that might alter the generation landscape

Hydrogen’s extended tax credit timeline, and how much will get built

EV tax credits and their impact on both personal and commercial vehicles

Resources:

Latitude Media: The GOP megabill will reshape the tax credit transferability market

Latitude Media: Congress just reshaped the solar industry. Here’s what comes next

Latitude Media: How OBBB will impact the power grid

Latitude Media: With help from Chris Wright, geothermal is spared in the budget bill

The New York Times: Ford Says Battery Plant’s Tax Break Survived Republican Attacks

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a solar and energy storage development and procurement platform helping clients make optimal decisions, saving significant time, money, and reducing risk. Subscribers instantly access pricing, product, and supplier data. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is supported by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform by visiting energyhub.com. 

Catalyst is brought to you by Antenna Group, the public relations and strategic marketing agency of choice for climate and energy leaders. If you're a startup, investor, or global corporation that's looking to tell your climate story, demonstrate your impact, or accelerate your growth, Antenna Group's team of industry insiders is ready to help. Learn more at antennagroup.com.

Residential solar has had a rough couple of years. In 2024, the market contracted 31% and major companies like Sunpower and Titan went bankrupt. Now, only halfway through 2025, Sunnova and Mosaic have filed for bankruptcy, too. The market has suffered from low demand, high interest rates, and major policy changes like California’s cuts to net metering. 

So now that the One Big Beautiful Bill phases out key tax credits, what’s next for the battered industry?

In this episode, Shayle talks with Julien Dumoulin-Smith, who leads equity research for power, utilities, and clean energy at Jefferies. Shayle and Julien cover topics like:

Why the IRA eased — but didn’t solve — the troubled market’s key challenges, like high interest rates, tax equity challenges, and intense competition

How debt prevented companies from weathering rising input costs

How the final version of the One Big Beautiful Bill avoided the worst case scenarios for residential solar

Whether the bill will impact utility or residential solar more

How the shift toward leasing will benefit  larger companies over small, local installers

The impact of rising electricity prices

Resources:

Latitude Media: Sunnova’s debt problem

Latitude Media: Is residential solar poised for a comeback?

Open Circuit: Does residential solar have a bad product?

Catalyst: Could VPPs save rooftop solar?

Latitude Media: SunPower is bankrupt. Competitors see opportunity

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a solar and energy storage development and procurement platform helping clients make optimal decisions, saving significant time, money, and reducing risk. Subscribers instantly access pricing, product, and supplier data. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is brought to you by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform by visiting energyhub.com.

Catalyst is brought to you by Antenna Group, the public relations and strategic marketing agency of choice for climate and energy leaders. If you're a startup, investor, or global corporation that's looking to tell your climate story, demonstrate your impact, or accelerate your growth, Antenna Group's team of industry insiders is ready to help. Learn more at antennagroup.com.

You’ve probably heard about Nat Bullard’s massive decarbonization slide decks, filled with charts and insights into decarbonization drawn from climate and energy data. 

This time he's waded through piles of utility regulatory filings — countless PDFs that hint at the inner workings of utilities and large customers — to find clues about everything from gas plant costs to new large-load tariffs. 

In this episode, Shayle and Nat, cofounder of the climate tech market research firm Halcyon, cover topics like:

How utilities — especially small ones — are handling eye-popping interconnection requests

New tariff structures that utilities are developing for large-load customers like data centers

Historical precedents for this level of change on the power grid, like the 2000s Enron bubble and the 1930s buildout of the West

How factories and other large-load customers are battling against data centers for sites

Shayle’s greatest fear about energy in the next few years: That electricity rates will rise dramatically unless we tackle large-load requests and the cost of new infrastructure

What industries to bet on in a world of rising rates

What filings reveal about the cost of new gas generation

Resources:

Catalyst: The US power demand surge: The electricity gauntlet has arrived

Catalyst: Making DERs work for load growth

Latitude Media: High costs, delays prompt withdrawal of five more Texas gas plants

Latitude Media: In Georgia, stakeholders still can’t agree on data center load growth numbers

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a solar and energy storage development and procurement platform helping clients make optimal decisions, saving significant time, money, and reducing risk. Subscribers instantly access pricing, product, and supplier data. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is brought to you by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform by visiting energyhub.com.

Catalyst is brought to you by Antenna Group, the public relations and strategic marketing agency of choice for climate and energy leaders. If you're a startup, investor, or global corporation that's looking to tell your climate story, demonstrate your impact, or accelerate your growth, Antenna Group's team of industry insiders is ready to help. Learn more at antennagroup.com.

Lithium-manganese-rich (LMR) batteries could offer a rare combination in energy storage: high energy density at lower costs. They swap much of the expensive nickel for abundant, affordable manganese. But technical hurdles — like poor cycle life, voltage decay, and long formation time — kept them on the sidelines.

Now GM says it’s solved these challenges. In May, it announced plans to mass produce LMR batteries starting in 2028. In energy density, the new chemistry would land between the two major alternative chemistries in the U.S., NMC and LFP.

So what does this new entrant mean for the U.S. battery market?

In this episode, Shayle talks to Kurt Kelty, VP of battery, propulsion, and sustainability — and a 30-year battery industry veteran who led Tesla’s battery development for over a decade. Shayle and Kurt cover topics like:

What parts of the U.S. battery supply chain to on-shore or near-shore

The tradeoffs between LFP, LMR, and high-nickel chemistries

The roles that Kurt sees for all three in the market 

Shifting production lines and supply chains from NMC to LMR

Why LFP may still outcompete LMR in the stationary market

Resources:

General Motors: Why LMR batteries will change the outlook for the EV market

AutomotiveDive: GM, LG Energy target commercializing manganese-rich batteries for EVs 

WSJ: An Ex-Tesla Engineer Is Turning EVs Into Affordable Family Cars

Catalyst: What happened at Northvolt?

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a platform enabling solar and storage developers and buyers to save time, reduce risk, and increase profits in their equipment selection process. Anza gives clients access to pricing, technical, and risk data plus tools that they’ve never had access to before. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is brought to you by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform, by visiting energyhub.com.

Addison Stark thinks waste heat is a waste of time. The real opportunity, he argues, is decarbonizing industrial steam, which accounts for roughly 30% of industrial heat in the U.S. But doing that means deploying alternatives to the fossil fuel boilers industry currently relies on.

So how do you clean up steam? And why does Addison think waste heat is overhyped?

In this episode, Shayle talks with Addison Stark, the CEO — or as he likes to call himself, chief boiler maker — of industrial heat pump startup AtmosZero. They dive into topics like:

The difference between saturated and superheated steam — and why it matters

Why fuel dominates OpEx in steam generation, and how fuel types vary across regions

How the cost of steam affects overall cost of delivered products

Why resistive boilers reached maturity ahead of heat pumps

Why standardized, air-source heat pumps are emerging as an attractive alternative to resistive boilers

The role of thermal storage combined with renewable PPAs

Why Addison thinks waste heat is a distraction for decarbonization

Resources:

Joule: To decarbonize industry, we must decarbonize heat

The Green Blueprint: Rondo Energy’s complicated path to building heat batteries

Catalyst: Solving the conundrum of industrial heat

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a platform enabling solar and storage developers and buyers to save time, reduce risk, and increase profits in their equipment selection process. Anza gives clients access to pricing, technical, and risk data plus tools that they’ve never had access to before. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is brought to you by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform, by visiting energyhub.com.

The future of the grid increasingly hinges on where and how data centers get built. To forecast the kind of power infrastructure we need to meet AI’s growing appetite, we first need to understand a laundry list of variables: data center size, workload type, latency, reliability — even the variety of a data center’s coolant system. 

So what’s the state of play in data center development today — and how are the trends shaping grid needs?

In this episode, Shayle talks to Chris Sharp, chief technology officer of Digital Realty, a developer, owner and operator of data centers. They cover topics like:

How AI inference workloads are clustering in existing regions, driven by latency and throughput requirements

“Data gravity” and “data oceans”: how large concentrations of data attract more compute infrastructure

What’s driving longer lead times: interconnection delays, equipment bottlenecks, or both?

Large-scale builds vs. incremental additions and densification of existing infrastructure

“Braggawatts” vs. real demand: separating hype from reality

The diverging power needs of training vs. inference, and whether any workloads work with intermittent power

The evolving role of “bridge power” and why diesel and gas are still in the mix

Resources:

Latitude Media: Google’s new data center model signals a massive market shift

Latitude Media: The future of energy-first data centers takes shape

Latitude Media: Can a new coalition turn data centers into grid assets?

Latitude Media: Do microgrids make sense for data centers? 

The New York Times: Wall St. Is All In on A.I. Data Centers. But Are They the Next Bubble?

Catalyst: The case for colocating data centers and generation

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a platform enabling solar and storage developers and buyers to save time, reduce risk, and increase profits in their equipment selection process. Anza gives clients access to pricing, technical, and risk data plus tools that they’ve never had access to before. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is brought to you by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform, by visiting energyhub.com.

Demand for turbines is growing fast, but so are lead times — causing serious headaches for developers. In Texas, one of six projects that pulled proposals from consideration for a valuable financing program cited “equipment procurement constraints” as the reasons for its withdrawal.

Lead times are stretching to four years and sometimes more. Costs are climbing. So what’s behind the bottleneck?

In this episode, Shayle talks to Anthony Brough, founder and CEO of Dora Partners, a consulting firm focused on the turbine market. Shayle and Anthony cover topics like: 

Why previous boom-bust cycles in turbine manufacturing have left the industry skittish — and why Anthony says leaders are approaching this new peak with “guarded optimism”

The competing demands on the turbine supply chain, including from power, oil and gas, and aerospace industries

How lead times have ballooned to four years and, in some cases, even longer

Factors affecting the market beyond load growth, like renewables, storage, affordable gas, and coal retirements

How investment in tech innovation has raised turbine efficiency 

How the industry is preparing for hydrogen — if hydrogen scales up

Resources:

Latitude Media: Engie’s pulled project highlights the worsening economics of gas

Latitude Media: High costs, delays prompt withdrawal of five more Texas gas plants

Power Magazine: Gas Power's Boom Sparks a Turbine Supply Crunch

Marketplace: Will we have enough natural gas turbines to power AI data centers?

CTVC: 🌎 Gas turbine gridlock #236

Credits: Hosted by Shayle Kann. Produced and edited by Daniel Woldorff. Original music and engineering by Sean Marquand. Stephen Lacey is executive editor.

Catalyst is brought to you by Anza, a platform enabling solar and storage developers and buyers to save time, reduce risk, and increase profits in their equipment selection process. Anza gives clients access to pricing, technical, and risk data plus tools that they’ve never had access to before. Learn more at go.anzarenewables.com/latitude.

Catalyst is brought to you by EnergyHub. EnergyHub helps utilities build next-generation virtual power plants that unlock reliable flexibility at every level of the grid. See how EnergyHub helps unlock the power of flexibility at scale, and deliver more value through cross-DER dispatch with their leading Edge DERMS platform, by visiting energyhub.com.