Cleave: The Podcast

We sat down with Brooke Hogan for an honest, vulnerable conversation about family estrangement — including her relationships with her dad, Hulk Hogan, her mom, Linda Hogan, and her brother, Nick Hogan — and having the courage to build a life that feels like your own.

What happens when you decide the hard patterns in your family stop with you?

Can you love your family and still need distance?

Can you grieve what you hoped a relationship would be while choosing something different for your future?

How do you move forward when you don't have everything figured out?

If those questions feel familiar, we hope you'll spend some time with this conversation. Brooke shared with openness and heart, and we're thankful she trusted us with her story.

If someone comes to mind while you're listening, send them this episode. It might be a conversation you'll want to have together.

Disclaimer: The content of Cleave: The Podcast is for educational and reflective purposes only. Jon and Ashley Lefrandt are not licensed therapists, psychologists, counselors, or medical professionals. Nothing in this episode constitutes or should be construed as therapy, counseling, medical advice, legal advice, or pastoral counseling, and it should not be used as a substitute for professional care. If you are experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact a licensed professional in your area or call 988 (Suicide and Crisis Lifeline). By listening, you agree to our Terms of Service (leavethencleave.com/terms). © Eterna Home LLC dba Leave Then Cleave. All rights reserved.

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What happens when a family becomes more committed to protecting its image than confronting the truth?

The Emperor’s New Clothes was written nearly 200 years ago, but it may be one of the most powerful illustrations of an unhealthy family system.

Everyone can see what’s happening.

Everyone participates in the illusion.

And then one person finally says what nobody else is willing to say.

Suddenly, the problem isn’t the emperor anymore.

The problem becomes the person who pointed it out.

In this episode of Cleave Answers, Jon explores what this classic story can teach us about dysfunctional family systems, image management, enabling, conformity, scapegoating, boundaries, and the difficult role of the family truth-teller or cycle breaker.

Why do people go along with behavior they privately recognize as unhealthy? Why can naming dysfunction feel more threatening to a family system than the dysfunction itself? And what happens when you finally stop trying to convince everyone else to see what you see?

We also explore an important caution for cycle breakers: healing isn’t about exposing, humiliating, or endlessly trying to prove that you were right.

Sometimes healing is much quieter.

You don’t have to attack the emperor. You can simply stop applauding the clothes.

If you’ve ever wondered why telling the truth seemed to make you the problem, this episode is for you.

Father’s Day can bring up a lot more than celebration.

For some, it brings gratitude. For others, it brings grief, longing, anger, regret, or the ache of a relationship that is not what it should have been.

In this episode, Jon shares a deeply personal reflection on fatherhood, grief, generational legacy, and the kind of man he is striving to become. He talks about losing his own father to brain cancer, the grief that still lives in the body, the stories of the men who came before him, and the painful reality that some people grieve fathers who are still alive because of estrangement, pride, broken trust, or emotional harm.

This episode is about the legacy good fathers leave behind — not money, image, status, or worldly success, but presence, integrity, humility, repentance, protection, faith, and love.

It is also for anyone who is trying to become healthier than the family system they came from.

Whether you are grieving a father who has passed away, grieving a father who is still living, navigating estrangement, trying to heal a father wound, or simply wanting to become a more Christlike parent, this conversation is an invitation to reflect on what really matters.

Good fathers do not have to be perfect.

But they should be willing to tell the truth, own their mistakes, honor their families, and choose integrity over image.

Learn more from Jon and Ashley at Leave Then Cleave.

👇 Start here:📖 Get a free chapter of Christlike Boundaries:https://www.leavethencleave.com/christlike-boundaries-free-chapter📖 Get a free chapter of Leave Then Cleave:https://www.leavethencleave.com/free-chapter🎙️ Listen to Cleave: The Podcast:Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/cleave-the-podcast/id1727634410Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4n4moys6tyb5hrmkbkkk3o?si=a0611fc0c69a42c4💬 Need help navigating family pressure, estrangement, boundaries, or reconciliation?Learn more about Clarity Conversations here:https://www.leavethencleave.com/clarifyingconversations📚 Books by Jon & Ashley:Christlike Boundaries: https://a.co/d/0j8P1FuJLeave Then Cleave: https://a.co/d/07Avn2OfSubscribe for more conversations on Christian boundaries, family systems, emotional safety, marriage, estrangement, grief, and healing.#FathersDay #Fatherhood #Grief #ChristianBoundaries #FamilyEstrangement #FatherWound #Legacy #ChristianFamily #MarriageAndFamily #EmotionalHealing

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Can reconciliation happen if someone refuses to acknowledge what they did?

In Part 2 of this Q&A conversation, we talk about what reconnecting should look like after no contact, especially when the other person refuses to admit wrongdoing or take accountability.

We also address the belief that family estrangement is always caused by Satan or evil forces trying to destroy families — and why that idea can sometimes be used to pressure people back into unhealthy systems.

In this episode, we discuss reconciliation, accountability, forgiveness, family estrangement, spiritual manipulation, red flags, green flags, and how to seek God with real intent.

If you missed Part 1, we recommend starting there first.

Join us for the Christlike Boundaries Workshop on June 30th:

Get Christlike Boundaries on Amazon.

Or... read the first chapter for FREE. Click here.

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What does it really mean to honor your parents as an adult — especially when the relationship has become painful, controlling, or unhealthy?

In Part 1 of this Q&A conversation, we talk about the difference between childhood obedience and adult honor, why boundaries are not dishonor, and how to navigate family relationships when peace requires truth.

We also answer a tender question: What do you do when parents who have gone no contact suddenly want to reconnect after finding out you’re pregnant?

In this episode, we discuss honoring parents, family dysfunction, boundaries, no contact, reconnection, protecting your marriage, and what healthy rebuilding should actually look like.

Join us for the Christlike Boundaries Workshop on June 30th

Get Christlike Boundaries on Amazon. or download the first chapter for FREE! Click here.

Was Encanto really about magic… or was it about family trauma?

In this episode of Leave Then Cleave, Jon and Ashley unpack Disney’s Encanto through the lens of family systems, generational trauma, scapegoating, emotional roles, truth-telling, and healing.

Why did We Don’t Talk About Bruno resonate with so many people?

Why did Mirabel feel so familiar to those raised in emotionally complicated families?

And what happens when one person in the family starts noticing the “cracks” everyone else wants to ignore?

Together, we explore:

• Abuela and generational trauma — how unhealed pain becomes family culture
• Mirabel as the truth teller — and why truth tellers often become scapegoats
• Bruno and estrangement — why families sometimes exile the person who sees too much
• Luisa, parentification & pressure — the burden of being “the strong one”
• Isabella and perfectionism — the hidden pain of the golden child
• Family homeostasis — why systems resist change, even when they’re hurting people
• Healing after dysfunction — what Encanto surprisingly gets right about repair

If you’ve ever felt like the one who saw the cracks… the one asking hard questions… or the one who became “the problem” for telling the truth, this episode is for you.

Topics discussed:
Family trauma, family systems theory, scapegoat child, emotional immaturity, toxic family dynamics, Christian healing, estrangement, truth tellers, parentification, golden child dynamics, boundaries, generational healing, emotional health, Encanto explained.

📘 Grab our new book, Christlike Boundaries and more on on our website www.leavethencleave.com

🎙️ Subscribe to Leave Then Cleave for honest conversations on faith, family systems, boundaries, healing, marriage, and emotional health.

We are so grateful you are here!

Also find us on social @leave_then_cleave (instagram, tiktok and facebook!)

For many Christians, the hardest part of setting a boundary is not the boundary itself.

It is the guilt.

The fear that saying no means you are selfish.
The fear that needing space means you are unforgiving.
The fear that limiting access means you are dishonoring your family.
The fear that protecting your marriage, your home, your peace, or your children somehow means you are failing to love like Jesus.

That is exactly why we wrote Christlike Boundaries.

In this special episode, Jon reads the introduction and Chapter 1 of Christlike Boundaries, the new book from Jon and Ashley Lefrandt. Chapter 1, “Love Is Not Compliance,” begins with the core truth every Christian needs before they can understand boundaries clearly: love is not proven by endless availability, emotional over-responsibility, or keeping everyone comfortable.

Jesus was perfectly loving, but He was not compliant. He was merciful, but He was not manipulated. He was peaceful, but He did not preserve false peace. He was full of grace and truth.

If you have ever wondered, “Can I set boundaries and still be Christlike?” this episode — and this book — were created for you.

Buy Christlike Boundaries on Amazon.

Listen, reflect, and ask yourself:

Where have I mistaken compliance for love?

For more resources and to stay connected, check out our Website: www.leavethencleave.com or find us on Instagram, Tiktok and Facebook @leave_then_cleave !

How can you tell if someone has truly repented?

In this episode of Leave Then Cleave, Jon and Ashley talk about one of the most confusing dynamics in faith-based families: when someone claims repentance but refuses accountability, repair, or honest conversation about the harm they caused.

Using Christ’s teaching that “by their fruits ye shall know them,” they explore the difference between true repentance and counterfeit repentance, godly sorrow and image management, discernment and judgment, forgiveness and restored trust.

This conversation is not about becoming the judge of someone’s soul. It is about learning to recognize fruit: humility, confession, restitution, changed behavior, concern for those harmed, and a willingness to become safe.

For anyone who has been told, “I already repented, so you need to move on,” or “That is between me and God,” this episode offers language, clarity, and a Christ-centered framework for discerning whether repentance has actually produced change.

Learn more at leavethencleave.com.

This is Part 2 of our conversation with Rachel Wood on boundaries.

In Part 1, we talked about why boundaries are not unchristlike, how people-pleasing can become a form of control, and why healthy love requires truth, agency, and self-respect.

In Part 2, we move into one of the hardest questions many people face:

What do you do when you are trying to get healthy, but the other person does not want accountability, honesty, repentance, or change?

For many people of faith, this is where boundaries become deeply personal. We may understand the idea of boundaries in theory, but when it touches our family, our marriage, our loyalty, our guilt, or our desire to forgive, it can become incredibly difficult to know what is loving, what is wise, and what is safe.

In this episode, we talk about forgiveness versus reconciliation, manipulation, spiritual pressure, addiction, accountability, discernment, and what it means to recognize fruit rather than simply trust words.

Because forgiveness is a commandment.

But reconciliation requires repentance, honesty, safety, and changed behavior.

Those are not the same thing.

If you have ever felt pressure to keep forgiving while harmful patterns continue, or wondered whether setting a boundary means you are failing to be Christlike, this conversation will help give language to what you may already be sensing.

And if this topic feels personal right now, we invite you to join us for our May Healing Webinar Series, where we’ll continue walking through painful family dynamics, boundaries, estrangement, guilt, grief, spiritual pressure, and practical next steps for healing.

You can learn more about the webinar series, our book Leave Then Cleave, and our other resources at leavethencleave.com.

One of our most-listened-to conversations is back.

This episode originally aired a couple of years ago, when our podcast had a different name and a much smaller audience. But as our community has grown, we realized that many of you have probably never heard this conversation before, and it continues to be one of the most important discussions we’ve ever had.

In this episode, we are joined by our friend Rachel Wood for Part 1 of a two-part conversation on boundaries.

For many people of faith, boundaries can feel uncomfortable. We may wonder if saying no is selfish, if self-advocacy is unkind, or if creating distance means we are failing to forgive.

But healthy boundaries are not the opposite of Christlike love.

They are often what make real love possible.

In Part 1, we talk about what boundaries actually are, how people-pleasing can become a form of control, why resentment often reveals places where we have abandoned ourselves, and how faith, personal revelation, and emotional honesty can help us stop living from fear and start living in truth.

We also explore family systems, attachment, sacrifice, self-betrayal, generational healing, and why loving God and others does not require losing yourself.

Part 2 will continue this conversation with one of the hardest questions of all: what do you do when you are trying to get healthy, but the other person does not want accountability, honesty, or change?

If this episode helps you, please share it with someone who may need language for what they are experiencing.

Learn more about our book and resources at leavethencleave.com.