Cleave: The Podcast

If you are afraid that setting boundaries, going no contact, or disappointing your family will ruin your life, this episode is for you.

Most conversations about boundaries focus on what they cost.

The grief.
The backlash.
The loneliness.
The fear of being misunderstood.
The pain of relationships changing.

But in this episode, Jon and Ashley talk about what boundaries can give back.

After years of people pleasing, self-doubt, emotional exhaustion, and constantly managing other people’s perceptions, boundaries created space for something new: clarity, creativity, confidence, joy, self-discovery, and a deeper sense of God’s direction.

Ashley shares how pickleball, gardening, and creating beauty in their home became part of her healing. Jon shares how boundaries gave him the courage to run for city council, speak vulnerably online, and help build a platform that has now reached millions of people.

This conversation is for anyone who is afraid that setting boundaries will ruin their life. Sometimes boundaries do bring grief. But they can also become the doorway into the life God has been trying to help you build.

If you are navigating family estrangement, no contact, people pleasing, religious pressure, toxic family dynamics, or the emotional aftermath of setting boundaries, this episode will help you see that healing is not only about what you leave behind. It is also about what you finally become free to walk toward.

Join us this Wednesday for our live event, Healing After No Contact.
This event is for those who have already made a painful boundary decision and are now living with the grief, second-guessing, backlash, loneliness, and emotional aftermath.

Register here.

What do you do when a sermon, a Bible verse, a conference talk, or a spiritual principle gets used against you?

In this episode, we talk about a painful dynamic many people experience in unhealthy family systems: when teachings about peacemaking, forgiveness, humility, honor, or reconciliation are twisted into pressure, shame, control, or spiritual superiority.

This conversation was prompted in part by messages we received after President Oaks’ recent talk on peacemaking. We want to be clear: we honor and sustain President Oaks, and we saw nothing wrong with his message. What we are addressing is the way true spiritual principles can be misused by others in ways that feel manipulative, coercive, or spiritually destabilizing.

In this episode, we unpack the difference between peacemaking and appeasement, why truth is not the same thing as being harsh, how spiritual language gets weaponized in estrangement and no-contact dynamics, how to stay grounded in God when others use faith to destabilize you, and what scripture teaches about truth, control, and righteous boundaries.

Whether the pressure came through a pastor, a parent, a church leader, or someone quoting scripture at you, the principle is the same: something true can still be used in a spiritually harmful way.

If you have ever felt guilty, confused, or shaken because your boundaries were framed as unloving or unchristian, this episode is for you.

We also share details about our upcoming live online CLEAVE Events:
April 22: Boundaries Without Guilt
April 29: Healing After No Contact

If you are interested in attending either of these events, you can find more details on our website:

www.leavethencleave.com/cleave-events

What do you do when your spouse has not fully left and cleaved? Why do siblings experience the same family so differently? And how do you stop letting unhealthy family dynamics live rent free in your mind long after distance has been put in place?

In Part 2 of this Q&A episode, Jon and Ashley respond to some of the most common and painful questions they hear from this community around marriage, family systems, forgiveness, triangulation, and emotional healing. They talk about what happens when one spouse begins to recognize unhealthy family patterns before the other does, why family roles form so differently among siblings, and how grief, truth, and time all shape the healing process after no contact.

In this episode, they explore:

• what it means to “leave and cleave” when your spouse is not fully there yet
• why forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing
• how triangulation and unhealthy sibling roles develop in families
• why children in the same home can carry very different family experiences
• how grief can keep people emotionally attached even after no contact
• what it looks like to finally let go and move forward with God

Jon and Ashley also talk about the slow nature of healing, the small and simple truths that can begin changing a marriage, and the painful but freeing process of accepting that you cannot do other people’s healing for them.

If you are navigating:

• family estrangement
• emotionally immature parents
• marriage tension around in-laws
• sibling scapegoating or triangulation
• Christian questions about forgiveness and reconciliation
• the grief of no contact

this conversation will give you language, validation, and a more grounded path forward.

If this episode resonates with you, check out our book Leave Then Cleave, a faith-rooted guide to boundaries, marriage, family systems, and healing. you can also download the first chapter for free at www.leavethencleave.com/free-chapter

How do you know if you are setting a healthy boundary… or just creating more family drama?

In Part 1 of this Q&A episode, Jon and Ashley respond to some of the most common and emotionally complex questions they receive from this community. Together, they talk through the guilt that often comes with setting boundaries in religious and enmeshed family systems, what it really means when family members say they miss you but refuse to change, and how to help children grieve grandparents or extended family relationships when distance has become necessary.

This episode is for anyone wrestling with questions like:

• Am I being wise, or am I just making things worse?
• What do I do when people say they love me, but their behavior never changes?
• How do I tell my children the truth without making them carry more pain?
• Is it possible to be honest about harm while still staying rooted in love?

Jon and Ashley talk about Christ-like boundaries, truth-telling, forgiveness, grief, family estrangement, and the responsibility parents carry to help their children understand unhealthy patterns without passing those patterns on to the next generation. They also explore why truth is not the same as cruelty, why love does not require denial, and why healthy families make room for both honesty and healing.

If you have ever struggled with toxic family dynamics, emotionally immature parents, religious guilt around boundaries, or helping children navigate family estrangement, this conversation will give you language, validation, and a more grounded path forward.

In Part 2, Jon and Ashley will talk about what happens when a spouse has not fully left and cleaved, why siblings can experience the same family so differently, and how to stop letting unhealthy family dynamics live rent free in your mind.

If this episode resonates with you, check out our book Leave Then Cleave, a faith-rooted guide to boundaries, family systems, marriage, and healing.

You can find it on our website LeaveThenCleave.com/store or if you'd like you can read the first chapter for free at leavethencleave.com/free-chapter.

Holy Saturday is the day in between.

Friday’s pain has already happened.

Sunday’s redemption is coming.

But today… it can still feel quiet.

In this Holy Week episode of Here’s the Lesson, Jon reflects on the meaning of Holy Saturday and what it teaches us about waiting, grief, unanswered prayers, and the sacred growth that can happen in seasons of silence.

Drawing from personal experience—including the devastating loss of his father to brain cancer—Jon shares how some of life’s most painful chapters can also become some of the most transformative.

This episode is for anyone walking through:

• grief and loss
• spiritual waiting
• marriage pain
• fractured family relationships
• unanswered prayers
• job loss or life transition
• seasons where heaven feels quiet

Holy Saturday reminds us that silence does not mean abandonment.

Just because nothing looks different yet does not mean nothing is happening.

Some of God’s holiest work happens where we cannot yet see it.

And if life still feels like Saturday right now, please hear this:

the story is not over. Sunday will come.

In the episode, Jon also references Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin’s powerful message, Sunday Will Come, and shares why that sermon has deeply shaped his faith and hope.

For so many people, these “Saturday seasons” are not just moments in Holy Week — they are chapters of real life.

The waiting after the loss.

The silence after the prayer.

The ache between what broke and what has not yet been rebuilt.

That is one of the deepest reasons Ashley and I wrote Leave Then Cleave.

We wrote it for people navigating grief, painful family relationships, betrayal, and the difficult work of healing while holding onto faith and hope for what God is still doing.

📖 Start with the free first chapter:
https://www.leavethencleave.com/free-chapter

🎧 Explore the full book and audiobook:
https://www.leavethencleave.com/store

#HolySaturday #SundayWillCome #ChristianHealing #HopeAfterLoss #LeaveThenCleave

Good Friday brings us to one of the most sacred and sobering moments in all of scripture:

the cross.

This is the day when betrayal, grief, abandonment, and suffering seem to reach their deepest point.

And yet Good Friday reveals one of the most powerful truths of the gospel:

love stayed.

In this episode of Here’s the Lesson, Jon reflects on what Good Friday teaches us about suffering, family pain, betrayal, grief, and the hope we find in Jesus Christ.

The Savior did not remain distant from human pain.

He entered it fully.

He knows betrayal.
He knows abandonment.
He knows grief.
He knows what it feels like to carry something all the way to the end.

For anyone navigating family wounds, broken trust, loneliness, or a sorrow that feels heavier than words can hold, this conversation is for you.

We talk about:

• Good Friday and the meaning of the cross
• grief and suffering
• betrayal and abandonment
• family pain and emotional wounds
• Christ-centered hope
• why suffering is not proof that heaven has left you

Good Friday reminds us that when everything else gave way, love remained.

And because love stayed, so can hope.

.........................................................................

If today’s episode resonated—especially if you are carrying grief, betrayal, family wounds, or the ache of trying to hold onto faith through suffering—that is one of the deepest reasons Ashley and I wrote Leave Then Cleave.

We wrote it for people navigating painful relationships, family systems, broken trust, and the difficult work of healing without losing their faith.

📖 Start with the free first chapter:
Visit LeaveThenCleave.com/free-chapter

🎧 Explore the full book, audiobook, and resources:
Visit LeaveThenCleave.com/store

📰 Join our Weekly Note for faith-centered healing and family clarity: Click here.

Holy Thursday brings us to one of the most sacred and deeply human moments in all of scripture:

The Garden of Gethsemane.

This is the night Jesus is not before the crowds.

He is alone.

In anguish.
In prayer.
Under the full weight of what is coming.

And what makes this moment so powerful is this:

Jesus did not deny the pain.

He did not rush past the sorrow.

He brought the full weight of His suffering before the Father and still said:

“Nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.” Holy Bible

In this episode of Here’s the Lesson, Jon explores what Holy Thursday teaches us about pain, surrender, grief, faith, and what it means to trust God in the middle of something heavy.

If you are walking through your own Gethsemane—family pain, betrayal, grief, uncertainty, spiritual exhaustion, or the ache of surrendering something you did not choose—this conversation is for you.

We talk about:

• Holy Thursday and Gethsemane
• Faith in suffering
• grief and Christian healing
• surrender without emotional bypassing
• trusting God in painful seasons
• discipleship in the middle of uncertainty

And if this tension feels painfully familiar—the ache of holding onto faith while carrying something heavy—that is one of the deepest reasons Ashley and I wrote Leave Then Cleave.

We wrote it for people navigating family wounds, betrayal, grief, painful relationships, and the difficult work of healing without losing their faith.

📖 Start with the free first chapter in the show notes
🎧 Explore the full book and audiobook

Plus, explore TONS of Free Content over at leavethencleave.com

Follow Us on Social Media and YouTube: @leave_then_cleave

Holy Wednesday confronts us with one of the most painful truths in all of scripture:

Jesus was not betrayed by strangers.

He was betrayed by someone inside the circle.

Someone who had walked with Him.
Sat with Him.
Learned from Him.
Shared meals with Him.

That is what makes this day so deeply human.

Because some of life’s deepest wounds do not come from obvious enemies. They come from people close enough to know what would hurt us most.

In this episode of Here’s the Lesson, Jon explores what Holy Wednesday teaches us about betrayal trauma, family wounds, church hurt, grief, broken trust, and the sobering realization that proximity does not always mean safety.

If you have ever been wounded by a parent, spouse, sibling, trusted friend, or church leader, this conversation is for you.

We talk about:

• family betrayal
• church hurt and spiritual wounds
• broken trust
• grief after betrayal
• Christian healing
• the difference between closeness and safety
• why Jesus understands this pain intimately

Holy Wednesday reminds us that Christ is not distant from betrayal.

He has entered it.

And if this conversation feels painfully familiar—if you are trying to make sense of family wounds, church hurt, or the grief that comes from someone close becoming unsafe—that is one of the deepest reasons Ashley and I wrote Leave Then Cleave.

We wrote it for people living inside this exact tension: trying to hold onto faith, truth, and healing while making sense of betrayal from within the circle.

📖 Start with the free first chapter here.
🎧 Explore the full book and audiobook at leavethencleave.com/store

Holy Tuesday gives us one of the most sobering lessons of Holy Week:

not everyone who sounds spiritual is safe.

Jesus was not hardest on weakness.

He was hardest on what looked righteous but quietly harmed people.

In this “Here’s the Lesson” episode, Jon explores what Christ teaches about hypocrisy, spiritual pressure, false holiness, and the difference between appearance and fruit.

Jesus never confused how someone sounded with what their presence actually produced.

That question still matters:

Does this relationship produce peace… or pressure?
Freedom… or fear?
Clarity… or confusion?

If you are navigating spiritual manipulation, toxic family systems, false guilt, emotionally immature parents, or Christian boundaries, this episode is for you.

This is part of our Holy Week series, helping connect the life of Christ to the realities people face in marriage, family systems, faith, and healing.

If today’s lesson stirred something in you, and you’ve been trying to make sense of the difference between true discipleship and spiritual pressure, that is exactly why Ashley and I wrote Leave Then Cleave.

This book was written for people navigating painful family systems, false guilt, unhealthy loyalty, and the confusion that comes when relationships sound spiritual on the surface but quietly produce fear, pressure, and silence.

It helps put language to what so many people have felt but struggled to explain:
the difference between peace and passivity,
love and control,
forgiveness and avoidance,
faithfulness and self-abandonment.

If that tension feels familiar, start with the free first chapter at leavethencleave.com/free-chapter.

And if it resonates, the full book, audiobook, and additional resources are available there as well.

📖 Start with the free first chapter of Leave Then Cleave:
https://leavethencleave.com/free-chapter

🎧 Explore the full book, audiobook, and resources:
https://leavethencleave.com/store

On Holy Monday, Jesus does something many Christians do not know what to do with:

He cleanses the temple.

He overturns tables.
He drives things out.
He disrupts what everyone else had learned to tolerate.

And He does not do it because He lacks love.

He does it because something sacred is being violated.

In this episode, we explore what Jesus cleansing the temple reveals about faith, truth, boundaries, false peace, and the difference between being loving and being passively tolerant. If you have ever struggled to reconcile your Christian faith with the need to protect your marriage, your peace, your home, your children, or your relationship with God, this conversation is for you.

We talk about spiritual pressure, unhealthy family systems, religious guilt, and why Christlikeness does not mean allowing what is holy to be exploited while everyone calls it normal.

This episode is for those wrestling with questions like:

• What does Jesus cleansing the temple teach us about boundaries?
• Does being Christlike mean staying soft no matter what?
• Can Christians set boundaries and still be faithful?
• What is the difference between real peace and false peace?
• How do I protect what is sacred without becoming hard?

If you are navigating toxic family dynamics, spiritual manipulation, religious control, emotionally immature parents, difficult in-law relationships, marriage boundaries, or the tension between truth and family loyalty, we hope this episode gives language to what you have been feeling.

If this episode resonates, start with the free first chapter of Leave Then Cleave.

Comment or message CHAPTER on any of our social channels, or get the book and resources here:
Free Chapter: leavethencleave.com/free-chapter
Book, Audiobook, and Resources: leavethencleave.com/store