Climate Change and Happiness

image credit | Aaron Thomas

Thomas looked back on his psychological research into technological disasters to help explain why the recent train derailment and chemical disaster in East Palestine, Ohio was so traumatic for that community and so unsettling for observers from afar. These kinds of chemical disasters—with their ominous dark clouds, fearful citizenry, and fish dying in local streams—are very hard to cope with due to their uncertain long-term health risks. These events also tend to divide communities due to issues of human negligence and injustice, as poor and marginalized communities are often unfairly placed in harm’s way. Panu and Thomas showed how the train disaster is a variation of the larger issue of eco-anxiety about chemicals and toxins that besets people worldwide. To understand how the East Palestine event affects our emotions and feelings, it is first necessary to honor some of our basic environmental values (self-protection, concern for others less fortunate, and duty to protect vulnerable species). Listen in to the conversation and find support and connection. 

• New York Times (Feb 14, 2023) Health and Environmental Fears Remain After Ohio Derailment and Inferno 

• USA Today (Feb 24, 2023), East Palestine train derailment killed more than 43,000 fish and animals, officials say

• As Rail Executives Grow Richer, Train Derailments Have Become Commonplace

• University of Florida: Impacts of Technological Disasters Fact Sheet

• Research on Kärkölä chlorophenol incident in Finland, and 2008 Longitudinal follow-up study

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Hello, I am Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. 

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. A show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. And in this podcast, we focus on climate emotions, our climate feelings. And by extension, our coping and how we get through the day. And you can support us at our Patreon. And you can always find us and all of our past episodes of climatechangeandhappiness.com.

Pihkala: Yes. And today, we are also going to speak about climate change – even though we are starting from quite a concrete thing. Namely, trains and what can happen with them. It was just minor news in Finland, but Thomas, you told me about this train disaster in East Palestine in Ohio in the US. And that was quite something when I took a more explicit look at the link you sent me. So what's going on there, Thomas?

Doherty:  Well, thanks for asking Panu. Yeah, this is an issue that's, I think, getting more press in the United States because of all the different complexities of it. And I think it's  great. It's not a fun topic to get into. It's a really messy topic. But I think in terms of our goals with this podcast of thinking about how we can actually have happiness and wellbeing in this era of climate change, we need to … deal with these kinds of things. And so we know that there was a train derailment in this community on February 3rd. A long train. Just like what happens in the United States. A long train full of different kinds of cars. And we know, unlike other countries, the United States, all the rail is private, so there's private companies that own the trains and own the tracks.

And this particular train derailed in a small community. A rural community that has been economically depressed. It's much like where I grew up in Western New York in Buffalo, New York. A former manufacturing community that's been experiencing hard times. And this train had several cars that were carrying toxic substances. Vinyl chloride, PVC, and various chemicals that I  would have to look at my list to see. Butyl acrylate. Isobutylene. Basically industrial chemicals that are toxic to people and to other animals. And as people in the US know, [there was] this massive pile up of cars, and then there was a danger of an explosion. So they had to purposely burn off a lot of these chemicals creating a huge kind of ominous dark cloud over the community.

And it's really insidious. It's a great example of a technological disaster. Because it's the dark cloud. It's the chemicals. It's the mystery of what this means for people in the community. And the ominous things that happen. Fish dying in local streams. Farm animals dying. We can get into more of the psychological manifestations of this. But it's just kind of a mess. And then, of course, it's been polarized by different opportunistic politicians arriving on the scene. And people using it to beat up on each other. The different political parties here. And then the community kind of caught in the middle. And then there's even been conspiracy theories and various things. So it takes us to the dark side of the psyche here in the US and other countries. Are you familiar with things like these chemical spills and train wrecks in Finland? I know, again, another credit to your country, I did realize in my research that Finland has some of the safest train systems in the world. But are you familiar with these things happening nearby to you?

Pihkala: Well, it surely is quite different. From my travels in the US I noticed that the trains can be very very long. And Finland so far has just the state railway company, which is pretty good. But then because of the zeitgeist, the times in which we live there's discussion whether that should be privatized. And that's a big discussion. And the experiences from any of the countries where the railroad companies get privatized, they are not exactly encouraging, I think. But this also brings into mind, of course, anxiety and worry. And my research has been dealing more with the sort of, bit more abstract and large scale anxieties and worries. Although I've often made the point, both in writing and in speech, that what we nowadays call eco anxiety can be also related to more particular things and not just climate. So climate anxiety is one big part of eco anxiety.

But this case also reminds us, as you hinted, when we talked about this, that environmental anxiety as a concept seems to originate from things a bit like this anxiety and worry about chemicalization and that sort of thing. So you know that history way better than I do. So what's your thoughts on that?

Doherty: Yeah, I think it's good to talk about it. I'd like to think of this episode as a primer for how to cope with these kinds of issues. Because it's very easy to feel like a victim. And to feel powerless and hopeless. And I think the first step is to really, like with all the issues that we talk about, you know, eco grief, eco depression, eco anxiety. Thinking of them as doorways and not walls. Like they're doorways to pass through. That we can become bigger. And we can learn how to cope with this. So I think [it’s important] having a growth mindset about these things. That we can, in fact, evolve and grow, to be able to cope with these things, and take action to prevent them in the future, is the mindset to start here. And so I would encourage the listeners to really think of this as a primer.

Even though the train derailment might not be as directly linked in people's minds with other climate and environmental issues. It does play into our general pool of worry. As researchers talk about, we have a pool of worry in our mind.  And an ambient level of daily stressors that we have to put up with in terms of global consciousness. And so trains are obviously running all the time. And we have 1000 train derailments a year in the United States. And so these are happening all the time. But we can kind of move it out of our mind temporarily until something like this happens. And then it reminds us of reality. So I think we can imagine ways to be our best selves. To be the best person that we can when we deal with this kind of thing. You know, and I know you and I have talked about this.

But you know, when I first, as a psychologist, started studying climate change, I had to look into the disaster psychology literature and the research on disasters in general. And, you know, I learned that, you know, researchers tend to distinguish between natural disasters and technological disasters. Natural disasters happen without necessarily human cause. Technological disasters, like this train derailment, do have some sort of human cause. A human error. Human negligence. Human mistake. Because the trains are meant to be safe. And they're supposed to be regulated. So something went wrong somewhere. And technically someone's responsible for that. And unlike, say, the recent earthquakes in Syria and Turkey, even though they have a human aspect, in terms of maybe poor work, construction rules, or building rules, no one is necessarily to blame for the earthquake itself happening. And so we tend to band together to try to help people and we celebrate the survivors.

But you'll notice the news, there's no celebration in East Palestine. There's no celebration. It's all negative because these technological disasters expose inequality and negligence and corruption and lack of regulation and these sacrifice communities. these marginalized communities. And so unfortunately these technological disasters tend to drive people apart. They separate people based on existing divisions. So the people in East Palestine already feel marginalized. They already feel left out economically. And they're already prone to hating outsiders and not trusting outsiders. And so when an accident like this happens, it just widens those existing divisions and makes everyone feel bad. Promotes distrust. And some of it is realistic because we don't know how these vinyl chlorides are going to affect the water and the wells and we don't know exactly. I haven't seen anyway, direct research on why the fish died. Like what exactly happened from that. So it is very mysterious. And as the news shows, people are worried about their long term health. Their children. Their property. Their property values. So it's right for them to be concerned.

Pihkala: Yeah, definitely. So and, as you say, this has strong elements of environmental justice. 

Doherty: Yes. 

Pihkala: Eco justice issues. And that's something to be kept in mind. And something again, which is worse in the US than in Finland, but we have our share of that also. And part of that is related to how the Sami people, the indigenous people in the North of Scandinavian, Nordic countries are treated. But also in urban areas. When I'm teaching courses at the University of Helsinki, which I sometimes do, I often show the students some video material about environmental racism. And they are very surprised about, you know, the role of the zip code in the US predicting health and life issues. And that sort of thing. So it seems that we are dealing with quite deeply ingrained issues.
Doherty: Yeah. And just so listeners are clear about the idea of, you know, zip code, you know, predicts lifespan. So depending on where you live in the US, you know, we can kind of predict someone's lifespan just on their community and the level of prosperity and health and economic development in their community. And so yes, we've got all of that happening here. So one way to think about this from a more growthful perspective is: it's a teachable moment. It's an opportunity for us to stop and to breathe. And to collect our nervous system. And remind ourselves of our values. Again, this is the process I use with people.

When I'm working on this, we stop. We collect ourselves. We give ourselves the benefit of a growth mindset. And we remind ourselves of our values. People are concerned about this, because their values are threatened. Values of natural balance. The natural order of things. The rights of people. The rights of other species. Everyone across the political spectrum wants a safe and healthy life for themselves. That's a common human goal. It doesn't matter if you're a billionaire, or just making it through the day. Everyone wants to be safe and happy. And so, you know, these values are all toxified we could say or threatened when something like this happens.

So, you know, there's an empowerment in understanding how our minds work. And how our emotion systems work. And we realize, oh, my values are under threat. You know, things that I hold dear are under threat. And then, of course, we can start to think about, okay, where do I get my information? How do I educate myself? Have I been doing my doom scrolling on the news? And realizing that the news, the various news sources are sometimes biased. And there's a lot of static among the different perspectives, because there's so much mystery in some of the outcomes. And then we can decide whether we want to get into this further and educate ourselves about this. And what level we want to become active in this. And that is an existential decision. Right?

We haven't quite talked about that in our podcast directly. But you know, it's described in your recent research and papers. You know, there's a distancing. A healthy distancing about how much do we want to take on of this? And can we take a break? Right? So again, we're, if listeners can imagine coming from a center. Coming from a place of control and choice. That's a place to start. It's just the other technological disaster aspects that are helpful to remind ourselves. You know, we talked about the social justice issues and the mystery of these chemical things. An earthquake is devastating, but it's not mysterious. We know what happens. It shakes the ground. Buildings collapse. Then it stops. And then we rebuild. So it's relatively simple to understand for our human minds.

But the spilling of a chemical that's never existed in history, into the environment. We actually don't know what's going to happen with that chemical. We literally do not know. And so it's very mysterious. And it's hard to cope with. And there's a post mortem, where people are seeking who's responsible. And they're wanting to place blame. And then they look back on warning signs. And of course, it's incredible with this train, if you look into it, someone was able to find some security footage from a nearby factory that showed the train going by in the dark of the night. And you could see the flames coming off of the wheels. You know, as it rolled by. So we were amazingly able to track what happened with this wreck. Even though there's a  diffusion of responsibility.

People can have physiological symptoms just from stress. So, in the news, talks about residents having rashes and various other mysterious physical symptoms. And they're not sure if they're from the chemicals. But the insidious thing is that just from stress alone, we can develop rashes. So some of these symptoms that people are having are psychological symptoms. They're real. And they are suffering, but they aren't necessarily associated with the chemicals. And it's really hard to tell the difference.

Pihkala:  Yeah. It's very tricky when there's this uncertainty element and invisibility included. And this also reminded me of the risk perception research around climate change. Folks like Paul Slovic, for example, and George Marshall, in his book about climate communication he is discussing this and interviewing Slovic. And the difficulty with climate change being that it's often so invisible. And even the weather impacts, there's certain ambiguity, and then different people can try to find different elements from their personal histories and link those weather events with that. But with technology, if there's something new coming, which then can be pinpointed, then it's a lot easier for people to react. And it brings in an object. And perhaps also a sort of visible enemy if you want to oppose that. So there's this unknown risk or dread risk, as Slovic calls some of these very serious risks. And radiation is one of those. So there's some links with this climate change psychology here also.

Doherty: Yeah. And that's where we can use this pragmatically. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about in my writing and in this book project that I'm working on. You know, how do we use some of these situations to our benefit? What researchers have found is that, you know, we get numb to large numbers, right? So 1000 train derailments, that seems like a lot, but it actually leads us to more habituate to it. Oh, well, there's 1000 of them. So you kind of get used to the large numbers. So we get numbed unfortunately, to you know, 1000s or millions of people. We get numb to the number of climate refugees. You know, the statistics. We get numb to large statistics, whereas individual personal stories really still activate us. And make things more meaningful for us. So that's part of the opportunity with an issue like the Palestine trail derailment, is that it's an opportunity to see a real story in real time with real people. And actually we're less numb to it. And paradoxically, that's a good thing. Because we want to be able to feel. And numbness isn't our friend.

So, you know, maybe that's why this is a teachable moment. That it might potentially lead to better regulation of these trains, if we can push through the moment. And that's where the politics come in. And the action because there is a moment, a window. As we know from politics, there's a certain window of opportunity when the public is open to do things. And if we can act we can put some simple regulations in place. Labeling trains better so the communities know what chemicals. Because this train wasn't even labeled as toxic. So some of the toxic train protection rules wouldn't even have been at play. But, you know, this is an opportunity to tighten up the rules and regulations. It doesn't mean we have to nationalize and, you know, take away the private companies rights in this case, but it does require some logical rules and regulations. So there's an opportunity here.

If listeners are inspired, they can see what's happening in their states. And try to be involved in that because there's a window. But what will happen as we know, unfortunately, is that corporate lobbyists and people that are working toward purely promotion of profit will immediately try to fight against the regulation. And try to delay. Try to hold off. Try to stop the legislators from making the regulations until the public forgets. And they move on. The same thing that's happened obviously with climate change. The delayism. So this moves us into the realm of politics here.

Pihkala:  Yeah. That's very true. And vigilance is a concept which could be discussed more in the eco emotion and climate emotion discourse, also. Some sort of eco vigilance, you know. The ability to stay sort of alert. Not too alert, but you pay attention. And you collectively try to take care that different norms are being followed. And very often, it requires wake up calls every now and then.

Doherty: Yeah vigilance. Yes. You know, like Churchill said, you know, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Right? So the price of, you know, ecological sustainability is eternal vigilance. Because we have to stay on this. So anyway, it's not that we're forcing listeners to go into action. But we're saying one direction is action. And looking at your state and community. I know in Washington state, they tried to regulate some of these trains. And then the federal government stopped it because it was seen as suppressing the market and suppressing profits. And so this takes us into the whole economic system. I know Portland, my city, is trying to regulate the trains. We have our own issue. So even if listeners just looked at what trains move through their communities, that would be a start. Portland has to deal with  coal trains moving through and various things here. The same kind of issues. And I know states of Idaho and other states are actually trying to fight the city of Portland regulations because they're saying it hurts their economy.

Right. So you know, that's where it gets messy. We have to get into the politics if we actually want to make change. Now, not everyone needs to do that. But someone needs to do that. And if we're not doing it, at least we can talk to our legislators or maybe contribute to a group that is working on this kind of thing. But again, it comes down to the choices that we make about what our values are and what issues we want to take on. Because we can't take on everything.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, this also reminds me of a case in early personal history in the 1980s. The community where I grew up, we talked about this a bit in some of our very early episodes of this podcast, it had a medium size sawmill. And that was a big part of the economy of the whole little town. And then in the 80s, it became apparent that a chemical called chlorophenol had leaked into the ground water. And people had been drinking that for a while. And the Ministry of the Environment had just been established in Finland, like just some time ago. And that was the first complex eco social case for the whole Ministry of the Environment in Finland. And that turned out to be a big learning experience.

It didn't go too well to begin with. There wasn't enough skills of negotiation. And it got quite heated between the sawmill who tried to deny responsibility and people were of course, scared, you know. There's this unknown risk. And also a dread element. And that sort of thing. But eventually that case led into better practices and better legislation. And finally, also for this small town of Kärkölä, they reached an agreement about cleaning up the chemical things and reached some also agreements with this sawmill and that sort of thing. But it was a very long process. And as a kid I've also been drinking some chlorophenol, but luckily apparently, it didn't cause much trouble in my body. There was some increase in cancer rates in town, but it was very difficult to prove scientifically the cause and effect. So that's, of course, often a very tricky thing in these kinds of contaminations. But I really appreciate you, Thomas, sort of speaking about these opportunities for learning and change and action which these moments also bring.

Doherty: Yeah. So again, it's, we need to stop and just have grief for this situation. It's a sad situation. It's a troubling situation. People are injured. Animals have died. A community is impacted. So that's normal. It's normal to feel sad here. But we also have other emotions that we can, we can move through. I mean, so again, the coping steps are to remind ourselves, this is an ecological issue. It's linked to our system. You know, it's linked to all different aspects of our natural world. And the economy and politics. And looking at our feelings as we're talking about. And realize that we can decide what we want to feel. We can also feel curious. We can feel patient. We can feel, you know, angry. We can feel inspired.

A missing step is actually looking at our own impacts. Like how is this issue actually literally affecting me in East Palestine. You know, when I did the research years ago on climate change, we identified the emotional impacts. Even if you're not in the location where the event is happening, you can still feel impacted by it. Even if you're 1000s of miles away, and those chemicals aren't literally coming to you at all, you still feel bad. And that is exactly what's happening here with this Palestine, that we don't even realize it. It's just happening, ‘wow, I'm upset by something that I only know about through the news.’ But then we can start to think about our values. And the people we want to be. And then we can decide if we want to particularly take action on this issue or other issues. Because we can't take action on everything. So, there are some steps, as you know, that we can cope and break it down for people. So it is an opportunity.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. And once again, the balancing act between not staying totally away and being exposed to these particularizing media stories. Which, again, can arouse empathy or righteous, moral outrage in us. And we need that to act, but then also, not to follow these very lively particularizing stories all the time. Because then there's the problem of compassion, fatigue and those kinds of effects. So once again, coming also back to this. The tricky but very necessary balance.

Doherty: Yeah. Because, I mean, there's a quote from my insight meditation timer app that I get a nice quote every day when I try to do my meditation. And there's a quote I saw recently from Pema Chödrön, a spiritual teacher, you know, “fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth.” It was a profound quote. And I thought about, you know, our fear and our concerns are because we're touching on the truth.

These events, like the East Palestine derailment, remind us of the truth of the world. The truth of our world. The truth of our systems. The truth of our economy. The truth of our technology. And it is scary. And it's painful. But do we want to live in truth? Or do we want to live in numbing and denial? That's the choice. I think most people would choose, even though it's difficult to want to live in the truth. And so that's the existential start here. Easy to say, harder to do. Because as you said our minds do want to get too much truth is hard to handle. Interbeing and being connected with nature opens us up to this dark ecology of pain and loss. Our hearts are wired for this so we have to be open to it. There's something noble about that I think. Something heroic.

Pihkala: Yeah, in all colors and shades we are connected with everything around us. And the borders can be quite porous, but any way this could lead into also a quite metaphysical discussion as you know. The “structure of being” -type of thoughts. But I think we need to leave that for another session. It's been fascinating to sit with you, Thomas with East Palestine. And trying to stay open to reality. So thanks for the episode once again.

Doherty:  Thank you, Panu. Yes and to anyone who's listening and to the people. If you're in East Palestine we're with you and we're aware of the situation and we're feeling with you. So we wish you all well our listeners. And thinking about how you're going to channel things into action. Panu and I part of our action is doing this podcast for you. That's something that both of us feel good about in terms of taking daily action and bearing witness. So you all be well. And Panu, you have a good evening.

Pihkala: Take care everyone. 

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness podcast is a self funded volunteer effort, please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

image credit | Mohamed Nohassi

Thomas and Panu were pleased to connect with geographer and climate change communications expert Susanne “Susi” Moser, whose path finding publications such as 2007’s Creating a Climate for Change set the stage for much of the current psychology and social science of climate change. Susi shared her own climate journey as a young earth science researcher charting her own emotional responses to the reality of climate change, and how she found allies in the work of ecopsychology activists like Joanna Macy, and ongoing challenges for working scientists to cope with the emotional side of their work. Susi described her mission providing positive visions for change for engineers and planners in the scientific and technical community – climate adaptation professionals whose day jobs are to “look the apocalypse in the face every single day.” Join us for an inspiring conversation on finding new meaning and a larger frame.

“When you think about the scientific or technical professions, it is very uncommon to bring in emotion, your whole selves into the conversation, into your work, right? We're supposed to be, you know, heads on a stick. But that's just not who we are. And, in fact … all the conversation we've had in recent years about storytelling is all about that, right? It is actually about re-embodying ourselves into a larger fabric of who we are as people. What our identity is. How it changes through the experiences we have in life. And how it is held in the community.” 

• Susanne Moser

• Creating a Climate for Change

• Successful Adaptation to Climate Change

• The Emotional Toll of Climate Change on Science Professionals

• Stephanie Kaza (Ed.) A Wild Love for the World: Joanna Macy and the Work of Our Time

• “Once You Know” documentary

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty. 

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. 

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. The show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about this personal side of climate change. Particularly their emotional responses. And how they make sense of this big issue. And today, we're very lucky to have a guest.

Susi Moser: And I'm Susi Moser. And it's just a delight to be here with the two of you. Thank you so much for having me.

Doherty: And Panu and I both know Susi, and her work. We follow her. She's been a leader in this kind of area of climate change, climate psychology, and understanding our emotions and feelings about climate for quite some time. And she's been doing all kinds of innovative work. And so we're glad to have her. And we're gonna have a conversation about that today. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Susan. It's such a pleasure to have an opportunity to discuss with you. We've met in person in Finland, actually. You've been an active keynote speaker on topics such as climate change communication, and adaptation. And lots of things related to the human mind and psychosocial issues. But should we start with history? Would you like to share some of your journey? How did you end up in all this and all the stuff related to climate emotions also?

Moser: Yeah, it's a really interesting question. I actually think it goes back to the late 1980s. You know, sort of when it first became a topic in public conversation. Obviously relatively, you know, late after it's become a scientific issue. But at that point, I was a student of geography. And I studied earth sciences. And, you know, my climatology teacher was already quite interested in it. But, you know, my geology teacher said, yeah, nothing to worry about. You know, Earth has gone through climate change for a whole bunch of time. So that was sort of my first scientific introduction. And then I was just really curious. Studying it myself. 

And I don't know, when I started to realize, my God, what are we talking about? It hit me for the first time, probably in the early 1990s. What it would mean. I studied the impact of storms on coastal regions. I visited coastal regions. I saw what that devastation is like. And, you know, I looked at sea level rise. A curve that is just going up no matter what we do. I mean, it matters what we do in terms of how steep it goes up. But it will go up for millennia. And yeah, most of us on this planet live in coastal areas. And it just became very clear to me from the start that, you know, while this might be the hardest thing to talk about, it is actually going to be one of the most impactful things that human species has ever experienced. And then I just, you know, I tried to communicate that. I was awful at it in the beginning myself. Typical scientist, you know, starting with pretty much the beginning of time to explain things and losing people in five minutes. So, yeah, I had to learn some hard lessons about that. 

And then really, you know, once I started to get interested in the question of how we communicate it. I mean, the whole point of the communication at that time was to get better at it. Essentially, to mobilize people. And oftentimes, people used fear. They used guilt. They used all kinds of emotional, you know, ways to get us off our seats. Off our butts. And I was like, wait a minute, this is dangerous territory the way we're doing this. And, you know, as a science communicator, I was trained to forget emotions. Put them aside. And it just felt completely wrong to me to do that. So that's kind of how I first got interested in the emotional side of climate change. And, in fact, you know, a lot of what I've done since is a follow on to this to fully recognize and appreciate that it's actually a very healthy response. And a very normal, non pathological response. How we react emotionally, psychologically, to an existential threat. So I'll stop there for, you know, give you probably lots of things to start poking into. But anyway, that's how I started.

Doherty: But one of the things I'm really interested in is that we talk about this environmental identity. You know, which comes out of conservation psychology. But this idea of our sense of self in relation to nature and the natural world. But you're I'm guessing, if you go even farther back, can you think of things that formed your environmental identity, even younger? Your connection with nature and the natural world? Because it seems to me, you must have had some inner motivation to push through on some of this. Because you must have felt marginalized at the beginning.  When you were starting. I'm just wondering, when you look back now, particularly with your insights. And then your larger life story, in early development, can you see any turning points from nature and your connections?

Moser: Well, it was my saving grace to have, you know, a large backyard to go back into. And, I mean, that was, for me, the safe place to be. It wasn't a scary place to be. It was, you know, just where I felt most at home. And so that's been true for me throughout my life. But certainly in my upbringing. Probably my interest in that. And my desire to protect nature. And all those things, they probably go back to my early childhood. And then I just professionalize it by, you know, choosing geography. The one topic that I thought I wasn't going to get bored with, given the size. And the complexity. And many dimensions of Earth with all its people on it. And geography is just perfect for that. 

So those were some key choices that I made around that. And then the psychology really came out of my own, you know, introspection of my own reflectivity. And my own experience of nature. And how I experienced hearing about climate change. And what it would, you know, imagining forward what that would mean, for all of us.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks a lot for sharing all that. That's really fascinating to hear. And how did it go in relation to coping with all of this, during those times 1990s and early 2000s? When you said that somewhere around the early 1990s, you woke up more profoundly to how severe the climate crisis actually is. And then you had some of these quite pioneering ventures. So, how did that go? When did you find some allies at some point?

Moser: Yeah at some point, but not early on. So early on it, you know, felt like I was pretty much alone with my emotional response. And, quite frankly, you know, I probably only let myself go, not very deep into that because it felt overwhelming. And it was probably in the early 1990s that I discovered Joanna Macy's work. And that was essential for me. In fact, actually, it was probably the late 1990s, because in the early 2000s, I took two long training sessions with her. And, you know, led me to actually also lead and integrate the work that reconnects into my work. But that was the first time I actually felt like there were companions on this journey. You know, I wasn't alone with the grief. And, you know, and I will say it's still for most of my daily life, a fairly lonely journey in the sciences, at least it is so unconventional too. Still unconventional to actually name your emotions about the things you study. 

So, you know,  I know now where my allies are. And the, you know, the allyship has grown in the sense of simply having the fact of climate emotions being talked about more often. In, you know, all your guests are, you two are like, you know, part of that larger field. So that's changed the context. But sort of my daily life, it is still you know, not something I spend all my time in. I don't know if you're aware or your listeners might be interested, there's a documentary that was made. And I was in it. The documentary is called Once You Know. And it actually traces the journey of the filmmaker. But it includes the journeys of scientists who, you know, take the emotional side of their work seriously. And how do they live with that? And how do they integrate that or cope with that? And also use it in a way to, you know, infuse and fuel their work in really wonderful ways. So that was an interesting experience. And it sort of has grown my own community of people that I can speak to about these things a little more substantially.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing all of that. Joanna Macy's name has been mentioned in this podcast also, several times. And we are planning to do an explicit episode on this Work That Reconnects that you mentioned. It's the name of the method she and others developed. And that's been hugely influential for my work also. And many regard Macy as an elder in all work around eco emotions, or whatever we call them. Or just, you know, our emotional response to what's happening in the world. There was the threat of nuclear war in the 1980s. And she and some others were also active in facing the effective response to that.

Moser: Yeah. Yeah, I think she's one of the crucial elders. At least for very pragmatic, kind of, you know, work. Like how do we work with these emotions? Right? How do we not sit alone with these emotions, but connect with others? And are held in community in deep emotional grief. And working through that. And by that, I don't mean to, you know, get rid of it, right? But to honor it. And to find a renewed energy and power to go back in the world and engage with it as opposed to be paralyzed and disappearing. And she has been probably one of the most influential people in my work. 

The other one is Bill Plotkin. And I know you have also mentioned him in your podcast before. His work, I think, in many ways gets at the root causes of why we have something called climate change in the first place. And so that, to me, has been very, very influential as well. Yeah. 

Doherty: Yeah. So this all gets to this idea of eco psychology. These are all this idea of really revisioning what our sense of psychology even is in relation to being on the planet.  Yeah. So I want to stay a little bit just for a moment with the science communication piece. Only because we have listeners. It's a paradox, I think, Susi. There [are] way more resources and support for science teachers, or researchers or your students who do, you know, who are feeling, obviously, all the feelings that are coming with this work. 

But, even now, as I tell people and students, you still kind of have to be a pathfinder, you know. So what I'm hearing from you is that even now. Even at your level, it still can be lonely at times. And you're still having to be a bit of a pathfinder. But I think that's just an important thing for listeners to take in. And that kind of  could be a segue to our adaptive mind conversation in a moment. But it sounds like that's just the nature of it still. It's better than it was 20 years ago, but still difficult.

Moser: Yeah, I think we're in a, you know, we're really trying to change culture. Right? When you think about the scientific or technical professions, it is very uncommon to bring in emotion, your whole selves into the conversation, into your work, right? We're supposed to be, you know, heads on a stick. But that's just not who we are. And, in fact … all the conversation we've had in recent years about storytelling is all about that, right? It is actually about re-embodying ourselves into a larger fabric of who we are as people. What our identity is. How it changes through the experiences we have in life. And how it is held in the community.

And so, you know, science has essentially asked us to make it a professional pride to dissociate from ourselves. And, you know, I mean, in your profession, Thomas, you would call it pathological. But we've made it a matter of credibility to be that emotion free. And I think what we're beginning to see is, it's to the detriment of the mental health and well being of the people doing the work.

Doherty: Yeah. 

Moser: So, you know, I don't think emotion disqualifies me as a scientist, you know. I think it is, the more repressed our emotions are, the more they actually influence us unconsciously. And actually, that makes for bad science. 

Doherty: Yeah. 

Moser: So I think the more self aware and clear we are about, you know, how else we are impacted by what we know, the more effective we can be in analysis. And in synthesis of an understanding. Scientific understanding. And also more effective in communication.

Pihkala: That's great wisdom, I think. And really, really important. And there's such a range of issues here. There's this whole idea of Western science, especially since the Enlightenment period. And, all the complexities [that] also revolve around gender. Through these developments when reason was started to be seen as masculine and good, and emotion was started to be seen as feminine and weak. There's [a] very long history of ideas and developments here behind this. Just to give the listeners a clue of the scope of this huge work. 

So there's both writings about communication. And how it's important to pay not only attention to emotions in general, but also to the difficult ones. And that was really rare in the 2000s. And when I started my work on difficulty, eco emotions, that was very important source material. But you've also done, because of your expertise in adaptation, sort of field work. There's some articles where you're actually, you know, drawing on people's experiences that you have met. For example, along the coastlines. And there's the philosophical things around concepts of hope and despair, for example. So that's something that I highly appreciate in any scientist or thinker. In this case you, but just wanted to give some glimpses to the readers about the obvious thing.

Doherty: Yeah. And I feel less lonely when we're having these conversations too. Because I think about this stuff all the time as well. You know, Susi, early on in our planning, you talked about some different emotions that you were curious about. And, you know, this adaptive mind. This idea of how do we kind of create this world that we need? Do you want to talk about some specific emotions? Or some specific things you want to kind of get into? You know, we have some time to chat. Let's see, what are you curious about?

Moser: Yeah, so maybe I could just, you know, first start by just saying what I mean by the adaptive mind just so that people understand where that comes from. So, you know, besides the, as Panu just mentioned, besides the work in communication, I've done a lot of work in adaptation, mostly in coastal areas. And, you know, early on, there were a handful of us working on this. And around 2006, after Al Gore's movie came out, all of a sudden, people realized we cannot just mitigate climate change. We actually also just have to live with some of the now unavoidable consequences. So lots of people started to enter the field of adaptation around 2005, 2006, when that came out. 

But 10 years later, I started to hear people at conferences, just take me aside and say, you know, let's have a drink, whatever. And they would just say, and how do you deal with this all the time? You know, people started to just have confidence, basically asked me how to emotionally cope with what they see every single day. I mean, others have said this before, but it's essentially, when your day job is to look the apocalypse in the face every single day, how do you cope with that? And then people started to say, well, it's not just that, but you know, I need to give talks to people who are traumatized from the most recent flooding or from the most recent wildfire. What trauma informed work in adaptation? You know, people started to talk. 

Yeah, and it's deeply interconnected with all the intersectional challenges that communities face. Race and poverty. And you know, the whole rest of it, right? And so those people were really looking for skills to help this deep transformative shift that we need to go through. And that is both a shift socially, economically, but it's also in our relationship to the environment, right? And how we relate to each other. So out of that sort of set of needs, I basically said, you know, I want to work on that. I want to think about what are support mechanisms? What are skill building opportunities we can create? Because you don't learn that in engineering school or in planning school. Or, you know, if you're a climate scientist, you don't get the lowdown on how to avoid burnout, right? 

Anyway, those are the kinds of contexts that lots of people in the scientific and technical communities didn't have the skills to deal with this constant traumatic and transformative change that people are facing. So out of that, basically, was birthed this idea of the adaptive mind. And it's a project that is aimed at skill building. At building those capacities. And, you know, one of the first things that I come across again and again, in this work is, first people just arrive exhausted. They're just completely fried. And so much of what we do in the beginning of our training cycle, is to help people just reconnect with themselves. Reconnect with each other. Reconnect to nature. Just as a baseline. Just to kind of, you know, get to a place where they can even take in learning about new skills. You can't learn when you're completely fried. 

And the next step in that often then is about having that community hold space for climate emotions. And it can be anything, right? Grief is often in there probably dominantly. But also anger. And anxiety. And fear for what happens to the children. You know, whatever. So it's a wide range of experiences people face. And, you know, we basically, then hold that space for people to have that experience. And what inevitably happens is, when people actually have space for their emotions, they don't get stuck in them. They actually then are able to, you know, think clearly again, right? Coming back to the work of Joanna Macy. You see with new eyes. You have opportunities to connect with others. 

And think differently about how do I address this more fundamentally than, you know, just putting one bandaid after another that just dries me up? So that's kind of, you know, what we're trying to do there. And yeah, so that climate emotions are and really holding space for that, with some skill is really essential in that work, because that's the part that no one gets.

Doherty: Yeah. I'm thinking of our episode with Scott Ordway. The composer who has been making music about the wildfires in his home. And his discussion. At least listeners can go to Season two, Episode 10. HIs discussion of how when we played that piece of music for the community, you know, that was damaged by the fires, how cathartic that was. And how healing that was. So that was an artistic take on a similar kind of coping.

Moser: Well, it's such a beautiful thing too to, you know, tap into things that are nonverbal, right? To get into a whole different part of our brains. To, you know, it taps parts of us much more easily than if I say, oh, would you like to, you know, express your grief? It's just, you know, it's much more difficult to do that in that way. Whereas music can take you there in like, two seconds, you know? So I think of imaginative ways of opening to a different future. I know, you've talked a lot with people about hope in your series of podcasts here. I always think, you know, if we can't imagine a better future, like, why bother with hope? I mean, right? You need to open that up. And art, other forms, all forms of art can help open that. So that's often another part of what we do in our adaptive mind work.

Doherty: Yeah. And I think meaning then comes out of this work, ultimately. You know, my life has some significance. Things start to make sense. I have a purpose. Do you see that, Susi, coming out in the process that you're describing. You know, how these kinds of emotional openings and space holdings, then allow people to start to have a sense of meaning. You know, repair their meaning making?

Moser: You know, it's actually in my experience, in this particular piece of the work, a central question. Many people don't burn out just because they haven't had a vacation in a while. Or because there had been too many disasters that they had to attend to. But they burn out because their work doesn't make sense anymore. You know, like, why should I bother and drain myself doing it with something that just feels completely irrelevant in light of the magnitude. And, you know, lots of that has to do with our very obscure and strange sense of self in Western society, right? As individuals, we are often thinking of ourselves only as individuals as opposed to part of a collective. That's certainly a big part of the problem of why we keep burning out. 

But also, you know, so much of our work has become a very narrow and mechanistic way of fitting into a machine that we don't actually want to be part of. Right? It's the machine that actually creates all this problem in the first place. And, you know, like, imagine, for example, you're a sustainability director in an urban community. And your work is to try to build trust with, you know, underserved communities, marginalized communities, right? Your police department next door is hitting those same people with batons or worse, right? Like, it makes no sense to be part of that community. And yet, you want to help. You want to do something. So you need skills to navigate and change the system that you're in at the same time that you want to be effective and actually, in those interactions with people who are not trustful. Who is afraid for a very good reason. 

So, anyway, those are the, you know, the kinds of real life situations that many people in my line of work find themselves in. And who just doesn't know how to address it. And the question of meaning is absolutely central. How do I bring myself at the deepest level to the repair work. To the restorative work. To the healing work that needs to happen on this planet? 

Doherty: Yes. Well said. Well said.

Pihkala: Yes, truly. So and as you two know, meaning has been a very key concept in my work also. And perhaps, Thomas, we should do one episode explicitly on meaning and various takes on it. I don't mean any, you know, academic philosophical discussion. But the lived experiences of meaning. And sort of different types of meaning that are changing now. And some of them related, for example, to the felt significance of our work. Which Susi has commented [on] here. 

So speaking of sticks and carrots. Which is a very simple metaphor for communication. It's not straightforward, but meaning can be an important carrot in that sense. Because if people see those people who are willing to try to face reality. And feel the emotions. And do things for the community. And the planet. If they see meaningfulness and a sense of meaning in those communities and people, that's going to be  very motivating. And then, of course, what is needed is also pathways to become part of those communities. So that it's not an in-group, out-group thing. But does that spark something in your mind, Susi?

Moser: Well, I feel, you know, that's actually at the heart of what makes communication work, right? As opposed to just communicating and conveying a number of scientific facts, right? That's what I used to do. Sort of just, you know, can I find the best word possibly to convey the end of the world as we know it, you know? In some factoids that people can remember. Or that sticks in their minds. 

But really, when you think about any talk, any moving event, or keynote, or whatever that you have heard it is when people are touched in their hearts. And their deepest own concerns about what is my life about? Why am I here? You know, and can you in some ways, connect to that part? Through story or, you know, whatever it is. And ask people to be in the world from that place. It's a very different proposition than how do I communicate, you know, certain parts per million. And the temperature curve, right? I am asking people to reconsider how do you want to be on this planet while you are here? 

Doherty: Yeah. 

Moser: And in my experience, I can tell them very frightening information and very uplifting information. And still have people walk out with hope when I have touched that place. 

Doherty: Yeah. 

Moser: If I haven't done that, it was a lost opportunity.

Doherty: So for our listeners who are listening, I mean, we're, again, this fly on the wall in this conversation. I think one of the takeaways is that … working with meaning is like swimming in deep water. You know, we have it and then we lose it. And then we're okay temporarily losing our meaning because this work is difficult. And it is all, you know, irrational. Like you say the world is absurd. And so we have these periods of losing meaning. 

But then if we can go to the emotions. And be with other people. And share these emotions, then that kind of cycles us back, probably to the meaning. So I think, for young listeners in particular, you know, as Susi and Panu can verify, you know, we lose our meaning. We think we have it and we try to work and it becomes difficult. We get burned out. And then we go through that time. And then we recover our meaning, right? So that's a takeaway for the listeners, right? All these cycles.

Moser: Can I build on that? 

Doherty: Sure.

Moser: So you said, it's absurd. I don't think the world is absurd. 

Doherty: Fair enough. 

Moser: So for me, when we temporarily might think that way, I think that's the moment when the frame through which we look at the world is too small to hold it. To actually make sense of it. We are invited in that moment, into a bigger frame. So when I'm in a bigger way to understand what's happening, than even this descent, you know. Or even this falling apart of Western society makes sense to me. For other people who, you know, are still holding on to that particular frame, it's terrible. And it makes no sense. You know, why bother living, right? But when you see it in the larger frame of say, this is an archetypal movement, where smaller self definitions have to necessarily crumble, make space for something different, right? And you then discover something new. 

So it's not even remake, recovering, meaning. It is making a whole new meaning. Like you come out differently after that. And I think we as a society. I hope we as humanity will come out very different. When we are through this transformational rough spot that we're in at the moment. And, you know, hopefully get to being a very different way on the planet. I mean, as Joanna Macy would say, from a life defying or life destroying way of being to a life supporting. Life is restored. Life enhancing force on the planet. I always love to think, you know, can we keep the Anthropocene to a really, really thin layer? Going back to my geological training, right? Like, can we keep that to a really thin layer? And then become a force on the planet that actually helps to rebuild life? 

Doherty: Yeah.

Moser:  I don't know. As opposed to destroying it.

Pihkala: That's a great reason. As it has been said, we need  visions. And things that we can hope for. That certainly is one that I'm in for.

Moser: Well, we're supposed to be, you know, Homo Sapiens. Sapiens. The white wise ones, right? We're not anywhere near the wise ones. So I think it's time for us to still become the species we could become.

Doherty: That's a great place to close out today. I mean, on this growthful vision. I do want to, we'll share some of the links. And to that documentary, you mentioned Susi. And to some of your work. And I could easily see having you back again for another time to continue this conversation. Obviously, there's so much we could go into. But I hope the listeners got something out of today. Both young listeners. Science folks. Folks working on adaptation helping communities to live in the world of climate change. And I really appreciate your work, Susi, and I wish you the best. And I hope you hope you have success in the next little bit here.

Moser: Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be with both of you. And yes, to be continued.

Doherty: Alright, I'll take care of yourselves. Bye bye.

Panu Pihkala: Warm thanks, Susi.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

image credit | The Susty Vibes team on the streets of Lagos during World Cleanup Day

Thomas and Panu spoke with Jennifer Uchendu, a researcher and climate activist from Lagos, Nigeria. Jennifer is founder of SustyVibes, a youth-focused climate organization with a mission to design and implement projects that make sustainability cool, actionable and relatable in Africa. The trio discussed Jennifer’s sense of Nigeria’s environmental situation and history and climate emotions she has observed among youth and elders in the country. Jennifer explained the SustyVibes mindset and the new Eco-Anxiety in Africa Project, where she works with scholars like Charles Ogunbunde (see Season 2, Episode 8). As Jennifer reflected: 

“It's been a journey of just learning. Pointing myself to more and more exciting projects. But ultimately, the goal is to ensure that young people … in my generation, young people who look like me, have the right agency or the tools to transform whatever feelings of fear or powerlessness to hope and to actions.”

Join us for the conversation! 

• SustyVibes

• Diffey, Wright, & Uchendu at al 2022: "Not about us without us" - the feelings and hopes of climate-concerned young people around the world

• Jennifer Uchendu on founding The Eco-Anxiety in Africa Project

• Some background on Nigeria and the resource challenges faced by developing nations in Africa 

• Nigeria is oil rich and energy poor. It can’t wait around for cheaper batteries

• It is time to break free of Africa’s dirty “fossil fuel trap”

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty. 

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. The show for people around the globe who are thinking about the personal side of climate change. Particularly their emotional responses and their feelings about climate change. And you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And support us at our Patreon so we can bring this content to you. And today, we are very excited to have a special guest.

Jennifer Uchendu: Hi, everyone. My name is Jennifer Uchendu. I'm calling in from Nigeria. And I'm the founder of SustyVibes. Looking forward to our discussion today.

Doherty: Yes. And so we're really glad to have Jennifer coming in from Lagos. And we've been waiting for this conversation for a while. And, as you know, we try to make this as best we can a world conversation. And with different people, and different ages. So I'm really looking forward to [this] chat. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Warmly welcome, Jennifer, also, from my part. I'm really glad to have this opportunity to discuss. We've met online a couple of times, in things related to climate emotions. And I've been fascinated by the work you've been doing in Nigeria. Both research and leading and working with NGOs. And so there's plenty to talk about here. And we're really interested about Nigerian perspectives, also. But would you like to start by saying a bit about where you are and where you come from, so to speak. So, what's up for you, Jennifer?

Uchendu: Absolutely. Thanks, Panu. I'm calling in from Lagos, Nigeria, where I live and work. SustyVibes, my organization, you know, we're based in Nigeria. [We] started here [and] have now started expanding to parts of West Africa. But really our work is for, you know, young people in Nigeria.

I always like to tell the story, as you know, seven years ago, I was, you know, this really young person. I'm still young now. But I was super young. Really passionate about, you know, the environment and looking for a platform where I can be a young person that meaningfully participates and contributes to environmental protection. And at the time, there were typical, you know, NGOs and CSOs in Nigeria that were run by older people. And there wasn't a lot of space for that kind of youth led and youth focused work. And then I started writing a blog about sustainability and the environment. And that kind of evolved into the work that I do now. Which is like bringing young people together and driving work when it comes to, you know, environmental protection. 

And I found myself in this work for climate and mental health as far back as 2019. Where we saw that even though young people were coming together to do work on environmental protection, there were still lots of emotions coming in and interplaying in our everyday lives that we needed to kind of interrogate [and] explore a bit more. And, you know, that's where we got to find out about eco-anxiety. You know, grief and all of those emotions that make us whole and human, I would say. And it's been really interesting, you know, navigating these emotions. Finding ways to safeguard them. Especially for us as Africans, recognizing that, you know, our own emotions and triggers as it relates to the climate crisis is quite peculiar. Especially when you look at it from the lens of climate justice, you know, and whatnot. 

So there's been so much to explore. It's been a journey of just learning. Pointing myself to more and more exciting projects. But ultimately, the goal is to ensure that young people, you know, in my generation, young people who look like me have the right agency or the tools to transform whatever feelings of fear or powerlessness to hope and to actions. So yeah, that really is me in a nutshell.

Doherty: Nigeria is—I'm looking at the map of Nigeria, Jennifer. I'd like to say just at the beginning a bit about you—what is the experience of people there and young people? It's funny, my daughter is 15. And she's studying human geography. And she has a test today where—I was helping her study for her test. And one of her vocabulary words is “superimposed boundaries” on countries. Where you make a boundary of a country that lays on top of all the existing cultures and nations within the culture. 

And I know Nigeria is a very diverse place. How do you as young people in Nigeria, see yourselves in relation to the history in Nigeria with the oil? And with the politics? And I know, even into the 90s, there was violence against environmentalists? I mean, I'm really wondering, do you feel safe [in] your work? You know? Is it really revolutionary what you're doing? I'm just curious, what it feels like here in the 21st century.

Uchendu: Yeah, absolutely. Such a great question to have asked. There's so much to unpack, you know, to be a young person passionate about issues around the environment in Nigeria. On one hand, you know that our livelihoods, you know, lifestyle is very much linked to our environment, you know, for us in Nigeria. You can't take that away from, you know, our reality. You know, just a couple of days ago, we woke up, and we just found out that we had no water. You're just trying to figure out what exactly it is, you know. It's like, it's the reality where every day there's some linkage with the environment. With natural resources and whatnot. But at the same time, where you live in Nigeria. Whether it's the urban or rural area. Whether it's the southwest, the north. Kind of, you know, dictates your relationship with whether it's power or, you know, the issues at hand. So a lot of people in the southwest who live in the urban area oftentimes are kind of more shielded than people who live in rural areas. And interestingly, you know, I've also been very curious about how people who live in urban areas feel about the climate crisis. Especially as we have, you know, kind of like a better lifestyle, as it were. 

So, I've actually just started a new research project, working with Dr. Charles Ogunbode. You might know him, where we're investigating climate emotions in West African cities. So it's kind of, you know, that curiosity to find out, okay, what really is at play. Especially for young people who live, you know, in cities, and having said that, we're also very cognizant of our history. Yeah, when I got into this work ten, eight years ago, and got to learn about, you know, about "Ken" Saro-Wiwa, got to learn about, you know, the Niger Delta. I was just kind of enveloped with so much anger, and so much kind of grief to see that we lost people who have such passion, who really cared about their people, just, you know, in the face of corrupt and oppressive leadership. And while that's scary, we live in an age where that is not as expected as it should be. Because we're now in a democracy and whatnot, social media. You know, there's so many things that help us kind of achieve our activism. But definitely, when you remember that I think what that does to us, it empowers you to want to do more. You know, to want to be more radical, more revolutionary to kind of push the limits and to demand for what's right. 

And, you know, I see that even in kind of the ideologies and things that I believe in, and what we've kind of cultivated at SustyVibes in terms of how do we, for example, understand what an energy transition means for us. You know, it's an energy transition. We want to ask: are there principles around justice and equity? Are they being, you know, put into some of these big words that we hear. Because it's really about our futures really about, you know, how we get to live in 10, 15 years time. So that's how we think about, you know, this conversation. Really thinking about our place. And, you know, how we can continue to, you know, demand for what's right in ways that feel authentic to us.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks a lot, Jennifer, for sharing that. And with Charles Ogunbode, we had the pleasure of discussing a couple of episodes back and heard a little bit about this very interesting research project about climate emotions in West and East Africa. And glad to hear that you're, Jennifer, part of that. And what I hear from you is that these things really come close to you in Nigeria, and for Nigerian young people. And the timescale in which very major potential threats are seen, that's much shorter than in some of the places in Northern Europe, where I'm living, for example. And then also the very understandable, righteous anger and sense of injustice related to these tragic happenings. And unjust uses of power, for example, in Nigerian history. 

And you have also written yourself that you have often encountered feelings of anger and powerlessness among young people in relation to these global complex crises as the climate crisis is. So, could you share a bit about the spectrum of climate emotions you encounter in the people you work with and meet. So, it seems that this anger, helplessness, that's one part of the spectrum, but what all is there? Could you say a bit about [that]?

Uchendu: Absolutely. And yeah, because when you hear, you know, the work that we do. The name of our organization is SustyVibes, you know, we kind of designed our mission around youth energy, youth passion. And around having fun. Around kind of building our agency from what makes us young people. And so our projects have really been designed around, rather than having, you know, technical workshops, let's host a party instead. When we think about advocacy, can we have an exhibition or a movie screening? So there's really been the idea of relaxation and fun incorporated in our idea of, you know, sustainability advocacy. 

But I mentioned in 2019, we saw kind of like a shift. That even though we're doing all of these really exciting things, we still felt, you know, a sense of overwhelm. I personally felt, you know, that we're just up against so much when it comes to the climate crisis. Especially when you see, you know, we felt like, you know, a tiny 0.00001, you know, fraction of the change that was needed to turn things around. And that feeling, that kind of narrative oftentimes brought us down. You know, it made us feel kind of very weak and very small. So, you know, and that side by side with feelings of anger. Anger because we're like, why do we have to work so hard? Why do we have to, you know, give up a lot of things, you know, to be these people we are. Climate activists per se. And, you know, the world just kind of goes on. Some people would never have to deal with it. So you would see that kind of, you know, drag and weight. Weight of, you know, building of hope, as it's where we're feeling as young people at SustyVibes. And I thought it was really interesting, because it wasn't until I got to the UK that I was able to, you know, put the two emotions together to see that young people in the UK were feeling, you know, things like shame and guilt. And I was like, what am I ashamed of? You know, I'm angry. You know, it's a different thing on this site. 

I thought it was really interesting to see how even just context power and privilege and positionality just changes the way, you know, the emotions you get to encounter when it comes to the climate crisis. So in that spectrum, there are days, you know, we talk about days where we feel super hopeful. Where we feel excited, you know, about the work that we do when we go out to the streets. When we go tree planting, and communities, you know, adopt the trees. And, you know, commit to looking after them, because it's important for them, you know. We're really excited about the work that we do. And every SustyViber, you know, kind of has that mindset put in them. That we do really good work for the environment. But there are days where, you know, it's all gloomy, and you hear the news, you know, you see something happening and you're just sad all over again. You're like where do we kind of go on from here? 

So it's definitely a spectrum. Where we kind of oscillate from, you know, really hopeful and joyful moments to days where we feel completely powerless, and we don't want to do anything, you know, after all. And I think it's okay, you know, to have all of those feelings. The important thing is learning how to safeguard them. Learning how to hold, you know, both spectrums of the emotions. And just pushing forward every day. And showing up to be, you know, better, more responsible humans as it were. So that's the mindset we now take into our work.

Doherty: That's very well said. That's very well said. When I think of vibes. I was hearing someone talk about vibing just the other day. You know, to vibe with someone. You know, you talk about SustyVibes. You know, to vibe with someone is to really feel comfortable with them. To feel light. To feel happy. To be in the present moment. To feel safe. Right? That's how we talk about it in terms of our personal relationships, right? 

So that's, I think, something we need to think about. How do we bring that energy into our work when we're working on these super heavy, wicked problems? And I don't know, I think old people forget about that. But, you know, younger people are still making the world. You know, they're still finding the world. Why don't you say more. I know, you have a lot of things you want to express about your work. Do you want to talk about some of your projects, or some of your research?

Uchendu: Yeah, for sure. And even just to touch on, you know, the idea of SustyVibes. You know, when I came into this work, you know, thinking about sustainable development, I had someone who said that even the concept of sustainable development sounds like an oxymoron. Because development is all about growth. And then you're talking about sustainability. You know, where do you find balance? And I was looking to create something, you know, that is really about making sustainability actionable, relatable, and also cool. So that it doesn't sound, you know, like things that don't fit together. So that we see it as a possibility. You know, where we don't, you know, see a sustainable idea and innovation, and we think, oh, this is, you know, completely foreign and impossible for us. 

And that really has been that mindset. So it's about being comfortable making it, you know, part of our everyday lifestyle to talk about these issues. You know, to say, I'm a tree hugger. And that doesn't make me weird, you know, per se. I am a tree hugger because I believe that, you know, I'm a big part of nature. And whatever I do, you know, fits into the larger ecosystem. And that really has been, you know, the mindset we put into our work. So it's also funny, you talk about, you know, older people, elders, you know, intergenerational kind of work. I think it was sometime last year that we got into a project with Stanford University, and a couple of collaborators. Britt Wray, you know, looking really at what is the power in conversations around, you know, climate emotions. And thinking about how conversations and dialogue even among young people, and older people might be useful to help us kind of navigate these very difficult emotions. 

And we've started a project. Intervention for Lago. It's happening both in Lagos, the UK and the US. And it's been interesting to see even older people talk about these difficult emotions that they have also had to cope with, deal with. But at the same time, they've not found, you know, ways to express them as we now have as young people. And it's just been really interesting to see them, you know, kind of offer advice or resilience. But at the same time, look to us to see how even in expressing emotions. In validating emotions, we find strength, you know, to cope through, you know, what, we're all going through as, you know, in the climate crisis. And that has kind of brought off an offshoot of a project we're now about to start, where we're looking for, you know, climate activists who are now older people over 60 in Nigeria, who have for a very long time been doing this work. Trying to see what narratives they've held on to for a very long time that has kept them to kind of continue and you know, pull through. And have that kind of march on mindset. That you just have to continue pouring in yourself to do this work. 

And that, you know, ties really well with the topic, you know, the theme of this podcast. These elders have found joy in their work even though it's difficult. You know, they've found joy. And they've been able to hold both feelings of suffering and pain, with joy and, you know, accomplishments and achievements over time. And I think there are opportunities for us to also learn, you know, from our elders. And from older people when it comes to the climate crisis. So we're really excited to be doing that work with Stanford University, and you know, in Nigeria, as well. So I just wanted to touch on that.

Pihkala: Thank you, Jennifer. That's very profound and great to hear that you have made openings in this intergenerational dialogue. And one of the very sad things that can happen around climate issues is that there may be generational disputes. Or between people who have or seem to have different kinds of attitudes and behaviors. So there's a lot of bridge building needed in communities. And it's always great to hear when people have good experiences of that. It also sounds like you have been able to get away from others, to remain open to this full spectrum of life, all the different emotions as you, as you say. And I'm very much appreciating that you explicitly acknowledge the oscillation escalation between various moods. 

And in my own research work about the various journeys that people have with climate emotions and different dimensions, the fact of oscillation has been very important there. So trying to validate that it's a very normal thing which happens. And also advocating that we need distancing in a healthy sense. So self care and community care and relaxation. So I hear a lot of things happening with SustyVibes that I've also been discussing in the more theoretical work. So very good to hear.

Uchendu: Thank you. 

Doherty: Yeah. Jennifer, when you talk, I mean, a lot of this, I think, for the listeners, for everyone is, really. Well, we talk about environmental identity. So we have an identity about [this]. Part of our identity is how I relate to nature and the natural world. And it's claiming that identity, whatever that means for us. And it's always intersecting with all of our other cultural and gender and sexual identities. And, you know, so you're talking about claiming your environmental identity as a Nigerian person. And, as, I'm not sure how you think of yourself. And maybe as a young woman, or whatever terms that you know, you use. You're claiming this and helping other people. And other young people claim this. And, you know, it's cool, it's good, it's fun. It's important. It's not weird, as you say. 

I started with this. And I used to take American young people out into the woods in the US for their therapy. And my co worker said, well what about me? How does this work for me as an adult? And that's how I got into my own idea of sustainable self, right? Personal sustainability. So like, we take our abstract sustainability ideas about the world and put it to our own life, you know. So it makes no sense to run ourselves down and burn ourselves out to save the planet. Because we are part of nature, you know, yeah. So that was my equation at the time. This idea of personal sustainability. Sustainable self. Your equation is SustyVibes. What other things in Nigeria and other parts of the world in terms of creating their own visions? Or what do you see about it?

Uchendu: Yeah, for sure. I've had young people come up to me to say, even just the concept of SustyVibes has inspired them to start, you know, new initiatives where they just think in terms of possibilities. You know, as you mentioned, you know, sustainable futures. And what that would look like. And that, for me, has been just very fulfilling to see. You know, that this concept or this idea resonates with a lot of people. When we host a party, for example, and we have lots of people sign up and attend, it's very validating. 

And even with SustyVibes, our eco anxiety work is channeled through something called the Eco Anxiety Africa Project. Which we started last year in February actually. And the amount of you know, how many people have embraced you know, that project. Have reached out. Have, you know, felt very validated. Have said, oh, we needed this for a very long time. And I've had even older environmentalists say, eco anxiety has been with us for a very long time. We've just not had a word, you know, to define and kind of conceptualize it. So it feels good to, you know, see people see these initiatives and this project and, you know, just fully embrace it. And say they feel validated. You know, they feel kind of empowered to say that they are not crazy to have all of these emotions. That these are real human experiences that make us human. And it's even within these emotions, that we find strengths to act for, you know, environmental protection. So I think that has been really useful for us. Yeah.

Doherty: Yeah. Anxiety as an ally. You know, it's a normal part of our emotional equipment to feel anxious about threats. And I think, traditionally, sustainability, like you talk about sustainable development, is very intellectual. It's very economic. It's very reductionistic. Even people that understand science and conservation. Wildlife conservation. A lot of these people have silently suffered because of [being] scientists themselves. And the economists and the activists haven't had that emotional language. So it is really empowering to be able to share these things. And then not feel like you're weak or less than or not as rigorous and things like that. 

Uchendu: Absolutely. Yeah.

Pihkala: Yeah. And it's very important, sort of public work, and public witness. And I've heard similar things from older people in Finland. Now that for the last six years, we've had more discussion about eco emotions in Finland. So they have been [coming] to me. And my colleagues say that, you know, in the early 1970s, with the oil crisis, we did feel this kind of anxiety already then. But there were just no words for it. So that seems to be a thing to be discussed in various parts of the world. How to connect the generations with some more active now and then the older ones. And find ways to join forces. And what about elsewhere in Africa? I know that's a huge continent. But do you have some sort of friend organizations in countries or areas nearby? So how's the scene around that?

Uchendu: Yeah, for sure. I mean, the projects, the research projects, I'm working with Dr. Charles Ogunbode, looking at Anglophone West Africa. And with every organization, we've reached out to collaborate. You know, they've said, you know, yes, this is something that's been needed. This is a gap, you know, in our work. We've done kind of climate adaptation, or mitigation in ways that have been very much about kind of infrastructure, or funding. You know, economics of things without looking at the social fabric. You know, our well being. And what adaptation means through and through. And it's been very, you know, good to see, you know, project partners. So with TEAP [The Eco-anxiety in Africa Project], what we've done is to host monthly webinars. 

And we've tried to find, you know, people in other parts of Africa who resonate with this idea. So we've had, you know, webinars with collaborators in Kenya. You know, we have one later this weekend with collaborators in Egypt, you know, who want to explore things like empathy. And how it, you know, really supports us in, you know, navigating climate anxiety, eco anxiety. So it's been very interesting, you know, to see that kind of spectrum. You know, there's folks in Ghana, who are using the arts to also explore, you know, this topic. And so you see, when you see all of these projects coming up, you're excited because it kind of resonates deep. And it shows that we're making progress. 

We are now kind of filling the gap. Filling the knowledge gap to have more about these conversations, because advocacy is key. The next level would be, how do we then put this into policy? How do our environmental and health ministries, you know, come together to look at how to really support people when we talk about climate adaptation? So it's, you know, it's been refreshing to see, you know, this new direction, and this conversation. And one thing I didn't talk about is, SustyVibes as part of the consortium working on, you know, the really global dialogues on climate and mental health with the Wellcome Trust. And we're really looking forward to leading a lot of these projects, you know, particularly in the Global South. Working with all of our consortium partners in _____ University and whatnot. So it's, it's been good to see that this direction, this attention, and all of these opportunities are coming up to do this kind of work.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. This is a great, great conversation. We're coming to the end of our time. And I think we really succeeded in Jennifer, just learning a little bit about you and your work. You know, practically for the listeners, what you're hearing is how to deal with eco anxiety. You know, it is painful. It is scary. It is overwhelming, but we don't eliminate it, we simply add additional emotions to help support. So on each side of my anxiety, I have empathy. and I have my positive vibrations. And I have my relationships, right? And I have my hope. So it's not black and white. It's about multiple emotions in harmony. And then that anxiety kind of has its place. But it's not alone. 

And then, of course, one thing we might do in the future, all of us, is do some sort of geography of eco anxiety. You know, because different regions have different variations. Jennifer, you're not tapping into the shame that someone maybe in some more privileged places tap into. So there's a geography of this as well. But I really appreciate your time. And Panu I know you're working on how to cope.  [Do] you want to click close us off with some comments today, Panu?

Pihkala: Well, warm thanks, Jennifer, for your time. And all this lived wisdom you are bringing both to this conversation and for the places where you are working together with others. So there's been great content  in relation to helpful coping with emotions. Which are sort of embodied  methods happening both in oneself and together with others. So one warm thanks, Jennifer, for all that.

Uchendu: Thanks so much, Panu and Thomas.

Doherty: Yeah. And I'm gonna get started with my day here and in Northwestern US. Panue, you have your evening. Jennifer, what's the rest of your day hold for you?

Uchendu: I have one last meeting for the day. And I will just wrap up. Yeah, it's almost 6pm here.

Doherty: All right. So you still have some work to do before you can get healthy. Thanks again, Jennifer. We'll have a number of good links in our show notes. And we'll be getting this episode out soon. 

Uchendu: Thank you. 

Doherty: Thank you all and to the listeners.

Uchendu: Thanks. Bye.

Pihkala: Take care. Bye bye.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

image credit | Genaro Molina, Los Angeles Times Staff Photographer

Thomas and Panu were joined by artist and poet Daniela Molnar, who creates her paintings using scientific records of glacier retreat in the Cascade range and natural paints and pigments she gathers near her home and in her wilderness journeys. The trio discussed how art making is one way to “enfranchise” climate grief that otherwise goes unrecognized, where in Daniela’s case she confronts forces of grief and wonder, in dynamic interplay. “Making paint is a kind of ecology,” Daniela observed. When making your own pigment the “world becomes full of colors,” rocks and plants gain agency and different waters from rain or sea behave in a way that is very much alive. Daniela evoked the creative tension apparent in regeneration of damaged landscapes where a “wound is simultaneously an injury and a process of healing.” 

“When we talk about non-resolution in a work of art and how it has that dynamic equilibrium, that's what beauty is. It's that tension. And the world is beautiful. You know, the world is incredibly beautiful. Even as it's incredibly wounded. And to allow ourselves to experience both fully is really a way to live in the world. And live our lives fully. And live in a way that moves us into different cultural territory that I think is essential.”

• Daniela Molnar

• Instagram

• Video on her art method

• Media

• Poetry

• Reading at Round Weather Gallery, February 23, 2023

• Projects in Finland between atmospheric scientists and visual artists 

• Siperstein, Hall and LeMenager 2016 Teaching Climate Change in the Humanities

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty  

Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. 

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. This is a show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about global climate change and other environmental issues that are affecting us as people around the world. And here we really get into our different kinds of feelings and our different kinds of emotions. We go deep into that. It's a rare opportunity and we're really glad to have it. 

Please make sure to find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And please support us on our Patreon. And – we've had a theme about art and creativity that Panu and I are very close to. Today we're really lucky to have a guest.

Daniela Molnar: Hello, my name is Daniela Molnar. And I'm an artist, a poet and a writer. And I work with themes of climate change and climate grief. I work a lot with natural pigments. And I'm delighted to be here. Thank you.

Doherty: It's really great to have Daniela. I met Daniela a couple of years ago when she was teaching at one of the art institutes here in Portland. And we had a talk on eco-anxiety and climate change. And so I've been able to track her work a little bit. And also interact with her in terms of general therapeutic work for people in climate and environment. 

But I've been really excited to explore Daniela's process and to learn how she makes her work. And so we're going to talk about that on a number of levels today. And listeners, you can think about your own creative life in various ways as this comes up. Panu, I know you're interested in this too, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Yes, warmly welcome, Daniela also for my part. Very nice to meet you. This is the first day that we meet you. We just had a brief conversation and found out that we have something in common. We both know a little Hungarian. You have much stronger roots there, but I've got some family connections also. 

But we would like to start with your journey with climate change. I know that you've been doing many things in relation to it. But would you like to share something of your journey?

Molnar: Sure. Thank you for the question. I think that my journey with climate change, and it has changed a lot over time, began probably when I was an undergraduate. I studied both art and environmental studies. And I actually focused more on environmental studies for a variety of reasons. So this was the late 90s. And I was learning about climate change sort of as this big thing that we knew about, but it didn't have nearly the same sort of scope or emotional impact that it has now. But I was working with forest ecologists in the Pacific Northwest who were starting to recognize the enormous impacts that climate change was having. And it really impacted me on a deep level. And it also was the kind of thing that, and I think many people feel this, where I was like, well, I'm not sure what to do. And that feeling stayed with me for many years. 

My life went through various twists and turns. And I ended up teaching, as Thomas noted, at an art school in Portland [PNCA]. And I started a program there in 2016 called Art and Ecology. And in that program art students were able to learn about ecological issues and use it as a lens with which to fuel their art. And in putting together that program, the core course focused on climate change. For obvious reasons. Climate change is this issue that touches on every other issue. Every other social issue, political issue, environmental issue, cultural issue. It's an incredibly complicated and vast topic. 

So I use that as the core course to orient us to these ideas. And in putting that course together, I just went deep into climate change research. And, frankly, went into a state of profound climate grief. I was so overwhelmed. Completely just struck by the things that I was reading. And had no idea what to do with it. And then was in this position of trying to teach it. And those circumstances put me in a position of really needing to work through what I was experiencing with my art, as I was trying to teach others to do the same. So that's a little bit about how I came to where I am now. And that's still really very much what I'm doing with my work.

Pihkala: Thank you very much for sharing that. So it's quite a journey. And you already described many of the emotional tones you had and the earlier what should I do about this. Which on one hand, is a sort of question of what can be called practical anxiety. You know, there's some problem which has some uncertainty in it. And it leads people to ask: what's my relation to this? And what should I do? 

But it really sounds like it struck you much more forcefully during that time when you were reading science. And then having this difficult role where you have to do something with other people. Which is a responsible position. And then one may be quite torn by the almost traumatic consequences of the information. And this is something that many environmental educators I know have been struggling with. So thanks for sharing that intimately.

Molnar: Yeah, I think that teaching is, you know, it offers an opportunity to really work through these issues in a forum. I like to think of any teaching environment as a community in which I don't have, and this became very clear to me when I was trying to teach about climate change, I don't have the answers. You know, as the teacher, I'm not the authority. I'm working through it with everyone. And I'm grateful, even though it was a very difficult course to teach. I'm so grateful for the opportunity that I had to teach it because it really put me into a position in which I was able to more fully feel these issues. And feel them in community with my students. And they taught me a lot. And I'm grateful for that.

Doherty: Yeah, this is great. I, you know, as we were planning our discussion, I was thinking about my use as not a professional artist as but my use of art personally from my own coping and identity. Environmental identity and sense of place. But also helping other people use this. And teaching therapists how to do art therapy, essentially. And then for the listeners, there's different kinds of listeners for this episode. Some people are just curious about this. Other people might be professional artists doing their own work and their own sort of hero's journey with their art process. 

So it seems to me there's two levels with this. There's the level one which is just art therapy, where we use even existing works of art, famous paintings, poems, you know, music. Panu and I did our music episode. We use these as ways to channel and express ourselves. And to find solace. And find, you know, comfort and universality that other people have tried these paths across times and places. And so that's really helpful. And it's relatively simple, although obviously, some artwork can be super challenging and really raucous. I mean, you know, what is it? Kafka has a quote about you know, art should be the ax that smashes the frozen sea within us. Or something like that, you know. So some artwork, obviously, is very challenging. But then there's the other level where people are actually on a path of creation. Where you don't know where it's going to go. 

And I know, Panu you've talked about it, it can be really challenging. And I know your work. And so we can kind of maybe go in two directions here. About how people can, you know, find solace. But also maybe at some point today, I want Daniela to tell us literally how you make some of your pieces so people can really understand this process for you. Where do you think we should go? Any thoughts?

Molnar: Yeah, well, maybe I'll just touch on the idea of art. I think of art engaging with our either making it or engaging with art that others have made. And when I use the term art, I'm using it really broadly. Like, to me, the differences between a painting and a poem and a song are really just differences of kind, not of substance. So any type of art, I think, is a conduit. It's an opening. And it's a way to connect with someone who may have been dead for hundreds of years. And yet, still, you're connecting with the spirit of this person. And that may sound abstract or, you know, difficult to understand. But it's not something that I think needs to be understood. It's something that we feel. And because it's something that we feel, and I think it's just a very, very basic part of the human experience. It exists in all cultures, throughout time. It's accessible to everyone. Whether you make art or interact with art. It's a way to open up to someone else's spirit. And when you open up to someone else's spirit, you're also opening up to your own. So I think that there's always that available. 

And I think, to me, it's one of the most beautiful things about humans. That we've made this culture in which we can freely share across generations and geographies and vast stretches of time. And I do think that it's a wonderful tool to use to more fully understand, you know, who we are and what we're doing with our lives. And then as you touch on, there's a difference between, you know, getting out some markers and some crayons and just letting yourself play. Or I think coloring books are a wonderful way to just let yourself play. And kind of turn off your conscious mind and get in touch with that spiritual and non rational part of ourselves that gets neglected so often. 

And then there's, you know, making art a central part of one's life. And building an art practice and an art practice is, you know, it's a daily commitment that really is core to my experience. In which every single day I'm waking up and dedicating myself to the act of making art. And in doing that, very difficult things come up in that process. I don't think there's anywhere to hide in making art. There's no shadows that you can, you know, crouch behind. Anything that you're experiencing, is going to come up if you're making art in an honest way. And that brings its own challenges. It also brings tremendous possibilities. 

So you alluded to the ways that I actually make the paintings, which I think is really, really important. And it does kind of open up this double sidedness of what I think of in my art as like this force of grief. And this force of wonder. And wonder and grief are always in dynamic interplay in how I'm working constantly. On a moment to moment basis.  In the paintings themselves. So I make a lot of my own pigments from natural materials. And pretty much anything in the world can make a pigment. Which means pretty much anything in the world can be painted. And if you're walking down, you know, a street in the middle of the city, something's going to be there that can make pigment. So it really changes how one sees the world when you start to make your own pigments. And that the world becomes full of colors. In a way that's different from, you know, just seeing colors as like surfaces. But it becomes like a depth to the world. 

And then I also combine the pigments that I make with waters that are from different sources. So rainwater, river water, tap water, ocean water. When I'm lucky enough to be by hot springs, hot springs water. And when you mix all these different things together, the paints that arise are really different in how they operate when you're actually using them in a painting. They behave in ways that are a little unpredictable and very, very alive. And what this pigment making process has taught me is that the materials that I'm actually using, many of which are rocks and plants to make the pigments, they're extremely alive. And they have their own agency. I'm not saying that they necessarily have their own minds. They don't have consciousnesses like human consciousness, but they have an agency that's very alive. 

And when I'm making paint from water, which also has its own agency. And a rock, which has its own agency. and I'm combining them and putting them into a painting in which I'm trying to work through confusion and grief and challenging, you know, emotions and spiritual conundrums of all sorts. The rocks, and the water will often show me things that I couldn't have arrived at on my own. And often what they're showing me is this combination of grief and wonder or beauty and violence. That is simultaneous. And I think where it brings me in my work is this very fundamental, but difficult to hold onto, idea which is that in any exchange, in every single moment in our lives, we're constantly in this binary between, you know, how absolutely challenging the world is, and how absolutely beautiful the world is. And that our minds really want to have certainty. And so our minds want to go either towards the beauty or the horror. Neither one is more true than the other. And they're both utterly true. 

And if I'm able, in my art making, or in interacting with other peoples art to engage with that non resolution, then I'm able to stay hopeful. And I'm able to stay open. And I'm able to allow myself to continue to experience the world and all its fullness. And that's really important for me specifically in relation to climate issues.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for all that. That's very fascinating and feels most important. And I can resonate with many parts of that myself. And I know many people who are searching for this difficult balance. Or actually the balancing act. I think it's a kind of dialectical thinking that you're sort of, there's some oscillation between opposing poles, so to speak. And out of that the fullness of life may emerge in all its colors to use this kind of expression. Co-creation is another word that came to mind. Both related to the teaching and education dynamic. 

Stephen Siperstein is a very interesting climate educator and a poet who has written in a fascinating way about the interactive character of climate education. And becoming more aware of the problems of hierarchical attitudes towards education. And being open to what can be co-learned and co-created in the moment. And what you, Daniela, say about agency of the colors, and different elements of nature, there seems to be a co-creation, there, also

Molnar: Yeah, that's beautifully put. Absolutely. It's the co-creation or co-learning that I referenced with my students, which is ongoing. Anytime I teach, that's the case, is absolutely also the case with the pigments in the water, and the paint. That I'm co-learning and co-creating with them. And it really is a feeling of non-aloneness, which is important. Like it's this sense of being part of the world. And part of a human community. But also a more than human community. Which is, I think, completely essential to working through some of these very challenging emotions that come up around climate change.

Doherty: Yeah, I'm struck by a lot of parallels between other conversations we've been having. We had a great conversation with Kim Stafford, the poet, about him speaking in the voice of other parts of nature. And also connecting with children and their sense of wonder. And reconnecting as adults with our own sense of wonder. And then this other darker, more challenging theme of, you know, the penalties of an ecological education is living in a world of wounds. 

So once we get curious about this stuff, and want to actually go to a glacier and see what's going on. And actually, experientially, you know, visit these places, it opens us up to this knowledge that then can, you know, as they say, things can't be unseen and unknown. So it is this rite of passage. I was talking to an old friend who was visiting and he's working in Antarctica. And he was telling me about it. We looked at the map of Antarctica from the South Pole, which I typically don't do, and he showed all the geology of the place. And explained why these glaciers and ice sheets are so important to the planet and plate tectonics and many things that I just never grasped. And he's been to Antarctica 23 times. And sits with this all the time. And there are people out there around the world, event listeners, who are sitting with this tough knowledge. Yeah. So, Daniela, I mean, you do go, part of your work is traveling into nature. And going to places.  That's part of your gathering of the materials and gathering of your own experience.

Molnar: Yeah, it is. And it's an important part for me. You know, sometimes finding pigments means walking down the alleys in my neighborhood in the city. But oftentimes, it means going into wilderness areas. And I had the opportunity to go to Alaska, and hang out with some glaciers this summer. Which was profound. And I also lead others into wilderness areas and teach others how to do that themselves. Because I do think it's an extremely important activity that is its own type of creative practice. Because you are exposed to what could be seen as a wounded world. It is a wounded world. And there's no way to get around that when you start to know what you're seeing. 

But I also think it's important to note that a wound, you know, if you cut your finger, that wound instantly starts healing. A wound is both, you know, the injury and it's instantly the process of healing simultaneously. And the same is true in wounds in the world. You know, even if that wound keeps recurring, which often it does with environmental issues. There's also a constant process of regeneration and rebuilding. And both of those things, I think, are really evident when we're able to,  make ourselves open to these places and be in them fully.

Pihkala: That's very profound, I think. And reminds me of many things. The journalist Dahr Jamail, while traveling around the world and writing about that in his book, The End of Ice, for example. Several other examples. But perhaps what I'd most like to ask now is the link between what we started with you're telling of the journey towards the reading of climate science and teaching, and then the art practice? So how did it go for you? Did your sort of body or body mind start doing things with art and climate change? And how much was that conscious? And would you tell us something about that transformation period?

Molnar: Yeah, thank you, Panu. I think that whereas I have a background in scientific illustration. And I've worked with scientists in various contexts. So the way that I initially started working with climate change visually, was to actually rely on the visualization of data. By which I mean, I was looking at how the shapes of glaciers are changing. Most of them are dramatically receding. And I started painting that shape of what's been lost. And they're sort of elegies. But I was also, at the beginning, trying to communicate information. Really trying to kind of sort through it myself. And that's not exactly what happened. I don't think I arrived in the process of doing that at all.

I think what I arrived at was first a far deeper engagement with climate grief than I ever thought I would be able to do or withstand. But I did do it and I did withstand it. And as I've come out through the hardest parts of that reckoning, I've also come out, understanding that the art that I'm making doesn't need to explain anything. I think that the work you two are doing in this podcast, and then your own practices is crucial. Because I really do feel like some of the core work of climate change is cultural work. I think we need to feel our way through this as much as we need to think our way through this. And so what I'm doing with my paintings at this point is trying to welcome viewers into an emotional engagement with these ideas rather than present more information. And the colors are a huge way to do that. 

I do think that the, you know, the stones and the flowers that I'm using communicate something directly to our bodies that can't necessarily and doesn't need to be put into words. And I think that people, through art, whether mine or someone else's, can kind of bypass the parts of our brains that want to find answers or find reasons or find ways to learn and justify or, etc. And just feel whatever needs to be felt in that moment. Which opens up space. It opens up space for whatever is going to happen next.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, one thing that we were thinking about for this episode, as well as just getting the idea of grief and ambiguous grief and disenfranchised grief. And so I think that's a place to maybe round up our talk today. You know, we've talked about this in the podcast, you know, grief is, you know, a feeling. You know, that when something either has been lost, is currently being lost, or we can also have anticipatory grief about things that we're going to lose. Even in the greatest moments of our lives, we already have an anticipatory grief that this is going to end. It's part of the human condition. 

But with climate change, we've got this happening writ large. You know, so it's very ambiguous. What am I? What am I actually mourning? Is it something in myself? Is it something outside? And this disenfranchised grief, you know, when someone cuts down a tree, and I feel for it, but there's no way to have that be recognized in the culture. But so some of this is to flip it around, it's enfranchising the grief. Right? So it's giving it a place. I heard a quote, grief is love with no place to live or something like that, you know. So maybe we can end this idea of enfranchising, you know, giving. I'll have to look at the definition of the franchise, but it's giving something a role, power, agency. So, enfranchising, grief or other feelings.

Molnar: Yeah, that's great. I love that. I mean, I do think climate grief is a type of disenfranchised grief. And one thing that art does, is it does, it gives it a body, essentially. A painting is an actual, you know, body where these feelings can live. And I think that art is uniquely competent at also holding ambiguity and not not requiring resolution. So a painting, or a piece of music or a poem, thrive on what isn't resolved. Like that's the beauty of most art is these competing forces within it. And that, you know, holding those in dynamic equilibrium in a painting allows us to do the same. It allows us to feel both the grief and the wonder. And it allows us to understand that those are both very present in our lives. and that both deserve attention. And in ourselves. But we can bring ourselves fully to both.

Pihkala: That's wonderfully put , I think. Thanks for that. And also, Thomas, for what you spoke about earlier. And I'm leading a course at the University of Helsinki I designed about eco anxiety and various disciplines. So one could call it ecological distress or whatever. So one lecture is about various forms of grief and loss and sadness. And one is about art, or art-based methods where I'm inviting people who know more about that than ma. Of course, I do have some art practice myself. But my dear colleague Henrika Ylirisku, for example, who has been exploring the many possible functions that art can have in relation to ecological themes and climate. And sometimes challenging us. And sometimes providing opportunities to explore something. And we may still not get it after we leave the room. That is what  has actually happened.

So I completely agree that there's great potential. And we don't always need to, or are even not able to, rationally name it. That's what's going on. But still it's important. And enfranchising grief is a great line. And I was just thinking about your ambiguous loss. And perhaps an ambiguous choice might be named also. That's related to the normativity around climate emotions. And some people are struggling that I cannot express joy, because the situation is so gloomy. And what I hear you say, Daniela, is that we should really give room and space for all kinds of feelings, including joy. Am I right? This is, of course, also my opinion.

Molnar: I think you're absolutely right. And yeah, I love that. I love that you brought up that phrase with ambiguous joy. Because joy is different from happiness. and grief is different from sadness, right? Both are far larger and more complicated. And I think it is more elemental to the human experience. But yeah, ambiguous joy, we need joy in our lives. And I think that beauty is both of those things, you know. 

When we talk about non resolution in a work of art and how it has that dynamic equilibrium, that's what beauty is. It's that tension. And the world is beautiful. You know, the world is incredibly beautiful. Even as it's incredibly wounded. And to allow ourselves to experience both fully is really a way to live in the world. And live our lives fully. And live in a way that moves us into different cultural territory that I think is essential.

Doherty: Yeah, that's a beautiful way to kind of bring us back to our mission statement for this podcast. You know, Climate Change and Happiness. What does it mean to feel happier? To feel these kinds of things. And this idea of ambiguous joy is something we're groping toward and all these episodes. But I thought we did a great job, coming back to the feelings. And the core work here through art and through a conversation of art. So Daniela, thank you so much for coming in. This is just a taste of your work. But we'll have some links and a great video of your process on our show notes. And I really wish you luck with your shows in Oakland coming up this new year. Thank you very much for joining us.

Molnar: Thanks so much for having me. And thanks for the work you're doing. 

Pihkala: It's been a great pleasure. All the best and all you listeners take care also.

Doherty: Yeah, so keep in touch with us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. We are a self-funded volunteer organization, so please support us so we can keep bringing you these messages of coping and ambiguous joy. And see our donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com or at Patreon. You all take care. Bye bye.

image credit | The Process of Eco-Anxiety and Ecological Grief - graphics by Anne Palm

Season 2, Episode 11: A New Perspective on Eco-anxiety and Grief

In this episode, Panu shared insights from his major new paper The Process of Eco-Anxiety and Ecological Grief. In a dialog with Thomas, Panu described stages like the “semi-consciousness” we experience as we come into awareness of the severity of the ecological crisis and the shocks that can follow an environmental awakening. He explained how healthy coping requires a balance of taking action, expressing emotions like grief, and creating healthy distance by taking breaks. Thomas gave examples of people he has observed going through these stages and processes. Coping with eco-anxiety and ecological grief is a journey. Join us to learn new tools. 

Links

• Panu Pihkala 2023 The Process of Eco-Anxiety and Ecological Grief: A Narrative Review and a New Proposal 

  • Brief presentation

• Panu also recommends: 

• Seminal article from Edwards & Buzzell (2008): The Waking Up Syndrome 

• Blanche Verlie (2022 book, open access): Learning to Live with Climate Change 

• Good Grief Network 10-Steps to Personal Resilience & Empowerment in a Chaotic Climate

• From Thomas: Contrary to the popular myth, ostriches do not bury their head in the sand when scared or frightened.

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello. I'm Thomas Doherty. 

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. 

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. The podcast for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. In particular, their emotions. Their emotional responses. And you can find us a climatechangeandhappiness.com. And you could support us at our Patreon. 

And today, I'm talking with Panu. And Panu, I know, one of our interests for us personally and for the listeners is the journey that we're all on in terms of our understanding of climate change. And particularly our emotional coping. And how we make sense. And how we deal with some of these issues and threats and stuff like that. And I know you've been working on a really big kind of what I would say a wisdom piece. A paper that you're pulling together a lot of the research and ideas for other scholars. And, you know, for other academics and researchers, but you're also, you know, have this model. Pulling together things that I think is really, practically useful for people. So we're talking about that today. And we're going to jump into that. Wherever you want to start with that. Either the background or currently what's on top of your mind. And we'll just chat about this today.

Pihkala: Thank you Thomas. In 2019 in Finland, I published a second book of mine about eco emotions and eco-anxiety [Mieli maassa? Ympäristötunteet]. So that one was a sort of handbook about various feelings and emotions that we may experience in relation to environmental issues and [the] more than human world. And in that book, I had a quite rudimentary model of the process of encountering the ecological state of the world. So that could be called the process of eco distress or process of eco-anxiety. And that quite simple graphic finger was very helpful for many people. I got good feedback from that. So that caused me to think about whether that could be elaborated more. Because that wasn't a product of a long thinking process, rather something I decided at the end of writing the book. 

So then, especially from the beginning of 2021, I started thinking about this more seriously. And also, I had read many writings about the topic which were using a very famous stages model. Namely, the five stages of grief, by Elisabeth Kübler-Ross, going back to the turn of the 1960s and 70s. And that's still by far the most famous model or frame of grief around the world. So often, people from various fields know about that. And I guess, Thomas, that was probably part of your training as a psychologist also. So do you remember when you first came across Kübler Ross's model? 

Doherty: No, I don't remember because I think it's one of those things that's in society. And in pop culture. And so we absorb it. And then we take it as a given, like Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Or one of these kinds of things. But they're not necessarily even literally true. Or they might have been, you know, surpassed by other ideas in academia. But these kind of stand the test of time. People need a roadmap. They need some sort of model. So, you were inspired by this, but I think you're going beyond this. Or you're taking this another step forward.  

Pihkala: Yeah, you're exactly right. So the Kübler-Ross model. Which is sometimes called DABDA, after the initials of the so-called stages. There's denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. You know, those are things that may happen when people encounter grief and distress. But then, as Thomas well knows, scholars of grief and bereavement have criticized the model since the beginning, for a couple of reasons. One is that not all people go through all of these things. 

And the second one is that in practice, many people get the idea that this is linear. That, you know, I should move from denial to anger and bargaining and depression and acceptance. And the third point is that sometimes in contemporary societies, people think that one can reach acceptance. And then that's it, the grief is passed. And, of course, there can be great advancements in processes. But it's not so simple. As I think many people realize, there's going to be changes in moods, and when something comes up in life, you are reminded of the person or thing that you have lost. And then it's very normal to have these mood changes. 

And now, in the last few years, people have been applying Kübler-Ross Stages of grief also, especially for climate grief. And I think there's a great need to apply the richness of scholarship from grief theory into this topic without giving the linear impression. Even though there is some strength in many of the wordings in the Kübler-Ross frame. So that's part of the motivation for me to work on this. 

So I wanted to create a model, which would be simple enough so that it can be understood pretty easily, and could be used in education, for example. And perhaps even as a tool for self reflection. But also that it will be more nuanced. And that it would integrate the possibility and  inevitability of mood changes. And what might be called fluctuation or oscillation. 

And that wasn't an easy task. It was much more difficult than I thought it would be during the COVID-19. It certainly took me time to get that all figured out. So basically, the model is as follows. There is a chronological element, not stages, but phases. And in the middle, there is a three-dimension part. What I'm calling Coping and Changing. And I'll explain that more in a bit. 

First, there is what I'm calling Unknowing. And this is something we have discussed in the podcast recently. Partly through the framework of blessed unknowing about the ecological crisis. Then a complex period of Semiconsciousness. And some of these terms come from [an article by] [Sarah Anne] Edwards and [Linda] Buzzell, the so-called “Waking Up Syndrome”. A kind of classic text in ecopsychology. And something I think, Thomas, you have encountered quite early on. So, after this complex phase of Semiconsciousness, where people may sort of know and not know, at the same time – and desire not to know more, because it would be so troublesome to really take in all the information. And the need for changes in one's life. 

But there usually comes some kind of realization and Awakening. Which then may lead people to different directions. Some people start engaging with the ecological crisis much more. Or they just can't avoid it anymore. There may be distress of various kinds. And some people still try to get away from the topic. Which I think is very human, but of course, it often leads to severe problems, both in the psychological lives of people. There's cognitive dissonance and other things. And of course, the ethical responsibility for our common planet is difficult to do if you try to move away from the topic altogether. So there may be various kinds of shock or stress and trauma here. 

And then comes the sort of heart of the model. This Coping and Changing. And as I heard you, Thomas, say many times, “all models are inadequate, but some may be useful”, to paraphrase. And this is very true for this model also. So it can't capture the fullness of what's going on. But it tries to capture enough so it might be useful. And in Coping and Changing, after long days of work, I conceptualized three dimensions which are 1) Action and 2) Grieving, which includes other emotional engagement. And thirdly, 3) Distancing, which includes both healthy self-care and problematic avoidance. The idea is that seemingly, people need elements from all these three dimensions to adjust and transform in response to the state of the world. 

So action is needed so that we can take better care of the planet and ourselves. And it also may help psychologically. But as we've often talked in this podcast, if you just do action, you get in danger of activist burnout and other stuff. And [in] grieving and emotional engagement, of course, people grieve in character, as you say, Thomas, and have different takes on this. But encountering the state of the world includes the need to encounter losses and changes. So that's the grieving part. And also there, if you just go very far in that without action, and without relief, then you usually end up in trouble. 

And the third part, which is here called Distancing, is the part where you take some distance to these matters. And the grief theorists very emphatically say that we need that. And it's very normal for people to also take breaks from the grieving process. And there are other things in life which demand our attention. So that's healthy. But then again, if you only do distancing, you end up in disavowal or denial. And once again, you end up in trouble. So this is sort of one of the main ideas. That we need elements from all these three. But if we just do one of them too much, then we end in trouble. How's that for you, Thomas? What thoughts come to your mind  when hearing all this? 

Doherty: Yeah, no, this is really great Panu. I'm following along and I have the luxury of looking at your figure that shows this graphic that shows your process. And we'll put that in our show notes. And, you know, if you go to our website, each episode has a picture. Some sort of picture. And the picture for this episode will be this graphic. So it'd be like one of the slides that Panu shows. It'll make this come alive to people. But I think just for the listener. And what I'm taking away, too. I mean, there's a pathway here. There's some steps. 

I think the first part of this is the, you know, unknowing, or semi knowing or awakening or shock. You know that waking up syndrome. Which I think most listeners, I doubt people would be listening to this podcast if they didn't have that experience. So that captures where we're at. And I love the blessed unknowing stage that you talked about. The innocence that we had before we really took this on. 

But then I see a bigger circle that has three things inside of it. There's this creative tension between moving toward action, dealing with the emotions, and then also pulling back a little bit and being able to kind of like, have some emotional distance. Or being able to wait and stop. Be mindful. So the distance, I think, is the most interesting in the sense that everybody knows about emotions and actions. I think we're often toggling back and forth between anxiety and grief and fear. And then what are we going to do about this? But that is distancing. That's like this little special lever, that I can turn things up or down. So I think it'd be nice to chat a little more about that. Because do you think that's really a key for self care?

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for that question, and all the comments. And it was difficult to choose a name for this dimension which is now called distancing. At one point I called it “Avoidance”. I was thinking about “Disavowal” also. So the trick is that it includes both the healthy forms, and the sort of unhealthy forms if you do it overly much. So this is one of the reasons that I was searching for a word which captures both the problematic denial part and the healthy self care part. And of course, one can't find a perfect term which would capture all of that variety. But from the coping theory and grief theory, I found people who are using both distancing and avoidance also, in that positive shade, or positive tone. Pointing out that it's not normal also to do what some people call functional denial or healthy denial. I didn't want to put denial there. 

But I think you are very right, Thomas that distancing is sort of the newest term which is named here. And partly that comes from a very practical need, because I've met many young environmental activists who have great trouble in allowing themselves to distance themselves. And that's very understandable because the problems are so pressing. It's so difficult to do structural change. And so sometimes they end up at the danger of burnout. Because [of] not encountering emotions enough and not doing enough distancing and healthy self care.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think for all the listeners just thinking about this. I mean what I hear often is people will make some sort of joke about being an ostrich. And having their head in the sand. Which is a classic image. I don't actually know that ostriches really do that. We should explore that. But I think ostriches are wiser than that. But anyway, that's a common thing that I hear from a lot of people. People who are quite engaged and quite intelligent and quite aware. But they're like, well, my heads in the sand, you know. But what you're saying is, it's okay to have our head in the sand sometimes.

Pihkala: Yeah, it's all about balance, you know. Of course, action and emotional engagement are hugely important. But I don't think that as humans, in this very “long emergency”, as some authors call it. I don't think that we can make it through if we don't get the benefits of healthy distancing, also. And in a way, this is linked very much to the conversations we were having with Ro Randall some time ago [on] the podcast. And she's been developing together with colleagues living with the climate crisis model. Which also reflects this change of needing to put more emphasis on how we can have the energy and do some rejuvenation and recreation in order to stay functional.

Doherty: So if someone's too far in the head in the sand. And they're comfortable there. And they want to move out into the emotional section, what do you think are some good ways to begin? Do you talk about that at all in the article?

Pihkala: I wish I could talk about it even more, but it's quite a long paper and definitely needs some further work. But I've been very interested in this concept of so-called ecological emotional skills. So emotional skills about ecological emotions. And I think we need many kinds of those. But of course, some methods are pretty universal. You know, listening to what you feel and also in your body. Trying to find names. This goes back to some of the content of our very early episodes of the podcast. 

And then trying to develop an emotion-positive attitude, for example. And what I've seen in literature and some people is that if you have your head in the sand for a long time, there's a great danger of feeling actually ashamed underneath the armor you have. So I think skills related to encountering the threat of ecological guilt and shame are actually very much needed at that point. But of course, it's difficult to do alone. Or just start doing it, you know. So the help of safe support groups and discussion partners, I think might be very crucial there. 

And I'm also thinking of this concept of yours, Thomas, climate hostages. You know, realizing that all of us, we are both victims and perpetrators in a way. But because we are individuals, I think we really need to understand that we shouldn't take all the blame of the world on our shoulders. So those kinds of things that help you to be more okay with yourself. I think that's one important dynamic in moving towards emotional engagement. Starting with grief and sadness may be difficult, if there is this guilt and shame dimension in the way. But what do you think, Thomas and also reflecting on many people you meet?

Doherty: Yeah, I mean I'm really enjoying our conversation because this is just another lens to think about these really complicated ideas. It seems to me that if we take the safety of being an ostrich as a starting point then we kind of peek out of the sand a little bit. And take in a little bit about what's going on. So some of it is taking small sips of this emotional stuff. You know, just a little bit here and there. 

But what I heard that I personally think is really key is that it's easier to do this with other people. If we're stuck and lonely and isolated, it's really hard. But when we're with the people that understand what we're going through, then of course, we just feel a little more able to express ourselves. So that's the universality of being in a group. So that's, I think, a super important takeaway. And then the other piece, and you might say more about this, but some of these emotions are … it's not that they're necessarily harder than others, but they get in the way of other emotions. So I think that shame and guilt. Those shame and guilt. They stop us from expressing or maybe they keep us isolated. So I think we can get over some of those. They're kind of like clogs in the emotional river. If we can work on those. Does that ring true to you that these are more problematic emotions? Maybe?

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. I definitely think so. And as we discussed in our podcast episode about ecological guilt, it can also have many forms. And sometimes people use that word in very different connotations. So if we think about it broadly, of course, as a sense of responsibility and having an ethical compass, being able to feel guilt is a very much needed part of human life. But then, if you feel it very strongly, and in a complicated way, then definitely so as you describe. 

And, of course, the troubles in contemporary society about grief in general. And ecological grief in particular, one big obstacle here. Because contemporary industrial societies aren't very good at teaching, for example, children and young people skills in grief. And if that's, you know, basically totally foreign to people, the idea that it would be good to embrace grief and sadness, because those are emotions that help us. They are not the problems or the enemies, but there are some losses, and then grief and sadness come to help us. But this knowledge and wisdom is much missing from contemporary societies. And that complicates things a lot. 

And that's, I think, one of the reasons why the Good Grief Network, which is about ecological grief, is so powerful. It combines social support and engagement with feelings of grief and sadness. And even these death cafes or climate emotion cafes. Which may go into pretty deep and dark territory. But they also enable social support and go towards the shared feelings of sadness. What do you think about this sadness and grief dimension, Thomas? I know you have a long history of dealing with that?

Doherty: Oh, yeah. Well, what I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about the listeners who are saying, well, it's capitalism. You know, we're supposed to be always in the US, rah, rah, rah, cheer, cheer, cheer, everything's great. And don't be a downer. Don't be a Debbie Downer, you know. And so, this grieving and shadow side stuff is just as radical. You know, it goes back to all those things we talked about in relation to Joanna Macy. And a lot of the work is radical to say, wait, I'm actually suffering here, in my plenty in my first world. So it is radical to bring that out and do that together. 

So yeah. And then, you know, I think the goal that I'm hearing from you is that your distance becomes a thing that you move around. Like I become an ostrich that keeps his head close to the sand, but not in the sand so that I have one eye on. I'm peeking, and I'm seeing and then eventually, I lift my head up a little higher, and then I can actually walk around with my head up. But I know that I can do my coping skills emotionally in my body. So that I don't have to, like bury my head all the way. Like I learn to kind of take care of myself. The distance becomes really dynamic. Like in the sense of I'm always adjusting. And it's like a balancing act kind of thing. Is that, like a dance or a balancing act, or some sort of embodied? I'm not sure what image you would use.

Pihkala: Yeah, yeah. Thanks for that. Thomas. I think that's very profound. And I'm arguing that flexibility and awareness are some key issues in moving forward in coping and changing. 

Doherty: Flexibility.

Pihkala: Yeah, so actually the model ends with another circle. There's an arrow called Adjusting and Transforming. The work of Blanche Verlie from Australia has been one influence here. And theories of so-called Post-Traumatic Growth. Which deal with different kinds of troubles and stressors. Not just with huge traumas, but also with them. So the idea is that of these three dimensions [Action, Grieving, Distancing], the subtitles become the main titles. So instead of Grieving, which includes other emotional engagements, when you're able, through many factors, to adjust and transform, then “other emotional engagement” is the main title and grieving, the subtitle. And also self-care becomes the overriding form. And then you are able to use distancing when you need it. So you have this skill of putting your head in the sand when things become too much, but you are also able to move towards things. And I'm fascinated by the image of ostrich here because they look very slow. But, you know, when they start running, they are very, very fast. So,  that's actually a funny image of an ostrich which has the skills of also running fast, putting the head in the sand if necessary. I don't know if ostriches are able to cry, but  humans definitely need that skill too.

Doherty: Yeah, our apologies to ostriches and to folks that are listening that are natural historians and do understand. This speaks to our own kind of anthropocentric world where we use these animals as symbols. But obviously, all animals like ostriches are highly evolved for their landscape. And they've got that long neck to find their food in the trees. And they can run fast from predators. And all this sort of stuff. And so yeah, we do want to become, I guess, you know, we're all trying to become evolved. You know, highly evolved for this landscape. And so, something we might have an episode about the ostrich effect. 

Because I think we, I'm just kind of brainstorming now. And I'll keep it short, because I know this is focused on your model. But we're starting to think as well, how do we evolve? Like, I need to have long legs to run away from threats. I need to be able to hide if I need to. And I also need to have a long neck, so I can see really far and see these big issues. And so I don't know what the climate creature would look like. That would be highly evolved. You know what I mean, though? It's interesting. What that would be. But we've got a few minutes. And you know, listeners are saying, okay, what's in it for me here? How do I understand? So they could be in any place. Do you have an example of a real person or some sort of way that this works out? So someone might be able to try it on for size. Like anybody that you know, that has gone through this.

Pihkala: Yeah. In the article, I'm using a couple of quotes from Sally Gillespie, an Australian psychotherapist, who has written a very fine book on Climate Crisis and Consciousness (2020). And she is definitely one who has gone through many things on her climate emotion journey. And she's open about it. And mentioning that, for example, [that] apocalyptic dreams don't haunt her as they used to, at some points. There's still mood changes, but generally, there is more flexibility. There is experience of meaning in life. So I think the quotes from Gillespie are important examples coming from someone who has gone pretty far on the journey that I'm trying to conceptualize. At least in a helpful way, even though one cannot capture all the varied dynamics here. 

Joanna Macy, who we named, I think is another example of a kind of elder who has really gotten through this. And in many books and essays, there's examples of people in various positions. And it's different for different people in different contexts. Which may sound like a cliche or understatement, but I think it's very important to emphasize that there's a lot of factors affecting this. So this is not an Olympic race. And it's not just up to the individual, but people are in very different positions concerning the factors which affect them.

Doherty: So I think it's helpful. Even back to the New York Times story that came out earlier this year. Which talked about me working with different people, I see. Different people are recognized in your model. I mean, I see some people that are so over on action, that they haven't really ever spent a lot of time on the emotion side at all. I see some people, unfortunately, that are swallowed up by their grieving. And they would love to put their head in the sand, but they can't. They can't do it. I think for some listeners it's just hard. It's hard. And then I think some people are so distant that they have a hard time imagining either action or emotion. So I think that's the challenging part. 

But I think we all have our unique recipe. Like where our strengths lie. So what you're talking about is trying to do like, 1/3 1/3 1/3. Or something like that. Where we take care of ourselves for 1/3 and we take action for 1/3 and we have emotions for 1/3. That's highly simplistic. But that would be interesting to practice on a given day.

Pihkala: Exactly Thomas. And thanks for sharing those observations of people who you meet. And we'd love to hear from you, dear listener. So what does it evoke in you? So you can reach us through our website, www.climatechangeandhappiness.com. And if you have close, trusted people who you can talk about with these things. 

So that's one possibility to use the model's basic ideas. To reflect on some of that. And I know that with the people I've shared the model with before getting it into the publication process, it has generated very interesting conversations. Where often people look back and think about that hey, when I was in the upper levels of elementary school, I had this awakening, but it was so difficult that I tried to go back to semi consciousness. But that worked for a couple of years, but not more. So it may also evoke this, looking back. And I know, Thomas, that that's one method that you use in your work. You know, doing this sort of timelines and thinking about our personal histories. Both in relation to so-called ecological identity and the happenings in our lives. So hopefully, the model might be using that kind of work too.

Doherty: Yeah, there's no going backward on the process. Once we have that awakening, we have to move forward. And so you're giving us some tools for that. So well, folks, I hope this is helpful. You know, even though you might be alone today, in some ways, you're not alone with us. Because that's what this podcast is meant to be. A place where we all can share this together. Again, you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And support us at our Patreon. And we'll keep bringing these in-depth discussions to you. And you all good luck on keeping your head slightly out of the sand. But getting together with other people that you can do action together with. Take care of yourselves.

Pihkala: Take care.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self funded volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

image credit | Scott Ordway

In the first episode of the new year, Thomas and Panu spoke with composer and multimedia artist Scott Ordway, whose recent works such as The End of Rain, The Clearing in the Forest and The Outer Edge of Youth explore themes of nature, identity and the effects of global climate change. Scott described the process of creating The End of Rain, an ambitious 2022 orchestral work that wove documentary, music, imagery and landscape investigations to tell the story of the aftermath of a catastrophic wildfire that swept through Scott’s childhood home in the redwood forests of Northern California. Scott also shared a musical selection from his recent choral opera, The Outer Edge of Youth. 

“I wanted to understand how fire and drought are changing us emotionally in personal and often hidden ways. Because my questions concerned communal rather than individual consciousness, it was important to me that my work be guided by the experiences of a wide range of people and that the final product reflect the things they told me. I wanted my work to be an act of sustained and careful listening.” — Scott Ordway

• Scott Ordway 

• The End of Rain: Review and companion book 

• Exploring Drought, Fire, and Our Relationship with Land Through Art and Music

• Erica Hellerstein (2022) “Grieving California” (featuring Scott’s work and a contribution from Panu)

• The Outer Edge of Youth: Listen and obtain the Recording

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty. 

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. 

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast, a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change – the personal side of climate change. And, you know, in the show we focus on emotions, what you're feeling in your body, and your feelings, the words that you use [to describe your emotions]. And you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com. And see our Patreonreon.com/bePatron?u=71854012. And today we have a special guest.

Scott Ordway: My name is Scott Ordway. I'm a composer and multimedia artist based in Philadelphia and originally from Northern California. I'm so happy to be here.

Doherty: And we're really glad to have Scott. And we're going to be talking a bit. We're assuming this episode is going to be coming out early in the year. And this is a beautiful episode to begin our podcast season. Panu, do you want to get us going in our dialogue?

Pihkala: Definitely. So we are going [to] talk a lot about music today. Also emotions. And as almost every person on the planet knows, [there is a] very strong connection between music and emotions. And some time ago with Thomas we did a couple of music themed episodes for our podcast. 

Scott, as mentioned, has been working with music in many ways for a long time. And some of his work very explicitly touches on the emotional side of climate change. And overall the changes in the world around us. But Scott, could you start by telling us a bit about your background? So where do you come from? What's up for you?

Ordway: Sure. So I am, as I mentioned, a composer and multimedia artist. In addition to writing works for orchestra voices [and] chamber ensembles, I also work with photography and video as a way to explore themes that are important to me. I was born and raised in Northern California. In and around the coastal redwood forests. And the landscape of coastal Northern California was a huge part of my upbringing and remains an important source of inspiration for me today. And it's also an area which is seeing tremendous changes in the last decade as a result of climate change. And has been a point of inspiration for a lot of my recent work.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing. I had the privilege of listening to one of your recent works, called The End of Rain, which explicitly deals with the impacts of wildfires and droughts to California. Both to people and the more than human world. And would you like to say something about that work? And how did you end up working with that?

Ordway: Sure. So as your listeners may know, in 2020, Northern California suffered some of the most intense wildfires in recent history. And these came on the heels of several previous years that were also among the worst wildfire seasons in living memory. In late summer 2021, one of these wildfires burned quite near to my childhood home in Santa Cruz, California. And I was experiencing this at the time, from the other side of the country, in my home, now in Philadelphia. And as I watched these fire maps, intently. Day and night. Getting closer and closer to the places that I knew and loved so well. And ultimately burning many of them. I knew that I wanted to respond in my own work. 

At the same time, I knew that even though this was my home. And a place that I knew and cared about deeply, that my own personal experience was somehow insufficient to capture the intensity of this feeling. Because, as I said, I experienced it from across the country. And so I designed a process through which I gathered first hand testimony from about 225 Californians who had experienced these events directly. All in all, I gathered about 80,000 words of firsthand stories of fire and drought in Northern California. And working from this large data set, I extracted something that I think of instead of a nonfiction poem. Where each line of the poem came directly from one of these responses. 

And so, working almost like a journalist speaking to one person after the next. Asking for introductions. Traveling all around the state. I gradually assembled this long poem which I could set to music. I was fortunate enough to have a commission for the work from the Cabrillo Festival of Contemporary Music in Santa Cruz, California. Which is one of the oldest and most celebrated festivals of contemporary orchestral music in the United States. And through that festival, I was able to work with the Grammy winning vocal ensemble, Room Full of Teeth, who would sing this text as soloists.

So with this incredible commission in place, I set out around California to speak with people who had experienced this directly. And also to make video and photography to do documentary video and photography that would illustrate the themes that I heard in the texts. So the final work involves projected documentary video, crowdsource texts sung by Room Full of Teeth, and a large orchestra. At the same time, I published a volume of landscape photography, so the audience could experience the poetry as well as the photography in that way as well.

Doherty: It's really beautiful. You can see some images of the book at Scott's website, Scottordway.com. And I've been just checking them out. And so this was happening. This is a creation in time. This performance must have been quite powerful. Scott, did you hear back from people? I imagine that some of the people who attended the performance were also touched by the fire. What was it like for you? For your family? For people to have this? Because you create a ceremony. You created something that doesn't happen, really, in the world, regarding these disasters. A kind of a ritual and a ceremony to kind of bring them together and extract some meaning and purpose from them, I think. But how did people react? 

Ordway: Well, this was something that I was really nervous about. Anytime you create a work that purports to speak on behalf of anyone other than yourself, you're taking quite a risk that you will somehow misrepresent someone. Or that you will have gotten the tone wrong or gotten the spirit wrong. And I thought very deeply as I was gathering these texts. And also, as I was making the selections of which lines to include in the final work. I thought very deeply about what I heard from people. And really did my best to make this piece a conduit for other people's point of view, rather than simply a platform to share my own. 

The premiere, which took place in July of this year, or July 2022, I should say, in Santa Cruz, California was for me one of the highlights of my life as an artist. Not only because it was a major event in my home region, but also because I had the opportunity to speak with so many people who had either experienced these events directly, or who had themselves contributed to the text. And what I heard from people was that there was something quite unusual and striking about hearing their words filtered through this process. And included in a symphonic composition. And then sung by these world renowned singers. 

And the feedback that I heard was quite positive. The people that I spoke with felt that the work adequately summed up their experience of these events. Or crystallized their feelings in a way which perhaps hadn't before. I'm sure there will have been others that felt that was less the case. And maybe didn't stop by to tell me afterwards. But in either case, the dialogue with the audience was unlike anything I've ever experienced after a premiere.

Doherty: How did your family fare? This is a CZU fire, right? So a big fire complex. How did your family fare yourselves? 

Ordway: My family, while they were evacuated. And my hometown was largely evacuated. My family was fortunately spared. For them, the traumatic part, I think, came in losing portions of natural parks which we've known and loved for so many years. Buildings and structures which we considered part of the permanent landscape of the region. 

And also losing the peace of mind. And thinking that they were somehow immune from this. Because this fire burned in regions that really have not experienced fire like this in generations. We're not talking about remote wilderness here. This is very, very close to some very densely populated urban areas. So it was quite unsettling for a lot of people that didn't previously envision themselves as living in a fire zone.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for  sharing all [that].

Doherty: There's a ton of directions to go. Yeah. But Panu, take this away here. I've got some things to bring up here in a moment.

Pihkala: Yeah, there's several things that I really appreciate about the method. And in the end product of The End of Rain. One being that you were willing to really listen to people's experiences. The second being that you were interested in the wide variety of people's reactions and experiences. And trying to produce a sort of collage or mosaic or whatever word one could use here. And I think that's very valuable. And sort of appreciating and recognizing that people will react differently.

As a scholar of ecological emotions, there's, of course, a very wide variety of things that have come up in other studies, which are now manifested in the lines of The End of Rain. Or in the imagery in a slightly different format. So I think it's very fruitful, also, for researchers to take a look at many kinds of impacts that these kinds of events have. And you explicitly described in the text, also the impact on people's beliefs and assumptions. And that's something I think that would need even more discussed. 

Like you say that it may change people's view about the world and their image about sense of safety, for example. Which, of course, are very basic psychological needs, also, as Thomas very well knows, as a therapist, also. But could you tell us a bit more about the sort of emotional journey that you had to go through in making this? So how was that process or journey for yourself?

Ordway: Well, one of the fundamental questions that motivated this work was a hypothesis that we are looking at the forests in a different way than we have in recent generations. And that specifically forests are bringing up a different set of emotions than they have in recent times. And my understanding is that for much of the history of humanity, when people looked out from the cultivated parts of the world, toward the wild parts of the world, they did so with fear and trembling and with trepidation. And that when people looked toward the forest, they saw a place of danger and uncertainty and darkness. As opposed to the parts which were cultivated and understood. And only in the last several 100 years did the forest become a place where we thought of peace and safety and tranquility, and restoration and rejuvenation. Only in recent years, or recent generations have we begun to think of the wild parts of the world as a place of peace and safety. 

And my hypothesis is that as we're entering this age of perpetual fire, we're returning to a much older way of looking at the forest where we see it as a potential source of danger as much as a potential source of peace and tranquility. And my own journey has been similar. Particularly when I'm in California and other parts of the Western US. When I see a dry forest, I'm not just thinking of how peaceful it would be or how rejuvenating or inspiring it would be to spend time in a forest. But I'm also thinking of the threat that it poses. And thinking about the relationship between the built environments and the wilderness. So my own way of looking at the forest has become a lot more complicated than it was even a few years ago. And I found in speaking with people for this project that that feeling was widely shared. The forest is not as simple as it was a generation ago.

Doherty: Yeah. And the listeners can take this in. There's people listening, obviously, that have personally experienced worry about forest fires or impacts. Certainly in the Pacific Northwest, everyone can identify with this new sort of trepidation about dry forest and dry underbrush and crinkling leaves and baking sun and all this kind of thing. So yeah, it's good to zoom out. Just remind us that, you know, Scott's work is illustrating climate psychology, right? We have the idea that there's different impacts from climate change. Disaster impacts and societal impacts and the emotional weight. And for a lot of people, you know, they've only just dealt with the emotional weight [of] watching climate as a distant thing. Something that's happening to other people far away. 

But of course, these impacts are all coming together. And in a singularity at different places in different times. And if you're in that place, then suddenly you're feeling the emotional weight, and actually the disaster and the social upheaval and the rebuilding. So it is a loss of innocence for those regions. Certainly in the Northwest, it's a loss of innocence. And then it's a loss of — its deep anxiety. Eco-anxiety. So that worry about the potential fire. And the no-longer-trusting-the-heat, and the sun. That's a great example of the subtle kind of pervasive, you know, eco-anxiety. It's lingering in the back of our minds. Which I think is why your piece is so helpful. 

Because, you know, there's three ways we have meaning in our life. You know, we feel like our life is significant, we have a purpose, you know, things make sense. And I think after that disaster, people's meaning … they feel insignificant. They don't know what's going on. They don't have a sense of purpose. And so I think your work, at least for yourself, restored some of that meaning, I think. Obviously, why you probably did it. But I think it was, you know, a community meaning making ritual. What do you think about that?

Ordway: You know, as I started out the work, I was imagining that I was going to be writing something considerably more somber than I did. And I was surprised and inspired as I traveled around, speaking with people. I was surprised at the extent to which these events had a galvanizing effect on people and on communities. I spoke with many people who told me that their communities were stronger after the fire than they had been before the fire. In the process of confronting these catastrophic events, they forged connections with their neighbors that hadn't been there before. That they found strength in their community that they hadn't been aware of previously. And that they came out of these events with a determination to be stronger as a community. As a group. As a collection of people. 

And there were some people that I spoke with, in particular in one community that had suffered some of the most catastrophic fire damage in the history of the United States. And these individuals told me with great determination, that I was under no circumstances to write a sad piece for them. That I was under no circumstances to make this work about defeat or tragedy. But instead, they wanted me to know that they were rebuilding. That the forest was coming alive again. That their community was coming alive again. And that spirit really surprised me. I wasn't expecting to find that in quite the way that I did. But I tried to honor that in the work. 

And I ended up ending the piece with two lines which are sung one after the other in an alternating fashion, which, to me, were both equally true. The first of those lines being we must change now. And the second being, things will grow back. And as I was trying to determine the ultimate emotional point of this piece. Or which of the conflicting emotions I wanted to focus on and highlight, I just couldn't decide between those two things. The need for change is undeniable. And it's also undeniable that things will grow back. The forest regenerates. Communities regenerate. Things do move forward. And this tension and this ambiguity is what I've tried to explore in this piece.

Pihkala: That's very striking both in the piece and how you describe it now. And some folks apply dialectical thinking into climate psychology and the times where we are living. But the idea is that sort of two opposites may be true at the same time, you know. In relation to action, individuals have to do stuff, but also there's a strong need for structural change. So these both exist. It's not either or. There's very good reasons for this pair. And there's grounds for hope also. 

So there's the dialectical coexistence of many things, which are sometimes considered binaries. And I think that your work speaks to the true ambiguity and the dialectical character of the times in which we are living.

Doherty: Yeah, and one of the things that I've heard with the therapist that I've worked with and people is that people do lose their ability to relax in nature, in the natural world. Or when they go to do some restorative activity then they feel overcome with grief. And this knowledge, you know, the penalties of an ecological education. Living in a world of wounds kind of thing. And so my standard answer to that is that's true. But it's not a barrier, it's a doorway. It's a doorway into a higher way of being. It's a more mature understanding of the world. We don't have that innocence. We lose that childhood innocence. 

Ordway: In the course of particularly the photographic ends and video components of the work, I spent many, many dozens of hours walking and hiking in quite remote regions of California. And I began this process in December 2020. Which was just a couple of months after these fires. And I continued this process through June of 2022. Just before the premiere. So it was about an 18 month series of trips. And what was so moving to me, was at the beginning of creating this piece, I was absolutely shocked and horrified and just devastated by the sight of seeing these forests in the condition that they were in. 

After these first trips, as I began speaking with more ecologists and people that work with the Park Service and scientists, I learned in much greater detail about the fact that fire is a natural part of the lifecycle of forests. And particularly these coastal redwood forests. It is a healthy and necessary part of the forest ecosystem. And other than its impact on human communities, fire was a neutral phenomenon from an ecological standpoint. It was not necessarily sad from the point of view of the trees. And as I started spending more and more time in these forests, not only did I become accustomed to the sight of burned out trees, you know, it became a little bit less shocking to me after a while. But also in the course of those 18 months, I started to see new growth. By the end of that period of time, groves that had been completely devastated were sending up new shoots. There was just green exploding everywhere by that spring of 2022. 

And so for me, this sustained contact with these ecosystems made it impossible for me not to see the truth that things will grow back. They are growing back. They've already started. In the time it took me to write this piece the forest has begun that process of rejuvenation. And what we need to do is reconsider the relationship between where and how people live and the wilderness. 

Doherty: That's very well said. That's very well said. I think we need sustained contact and a sense of time. 

Pihkala: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Doherty: Maybe we can steer the conversation toward the other pieces that we want to talk about today as well. The Outer Edge and The Clearing. [Do] you want to get us in that direction, Panu?

Pihkala: Yeah. There's this framework of post traumatic growth. That's actually the title of one of the last texts I did in Finnish for this national eco anxiety project, from which we had guests visiting our podcast. Post traumatic growth refers to the fact that often after a major crisis, there's both damage and growth. So, in my mind, that very strongly resonates with the vivid imagery that you are talking about here, Scott. 

And music is, of course, something which can help in many ways in producing all kinds of growth. And many works of yours also, other than The End of Rain, deal, in one way or another, with this relationship between humans and the more than human world. So, would you like to say a bit about some of your other works, which come close to the topic at hand?

Ordway: Yeah, I'd be happy to. So whereas The End of Rain is very much a documentary work and is kind of a piece of musical nonfiction, if you will. Most of my other work is concerned with imagined worlds or more fictional representations of these ideas. My most recent recording, which is available on Spotify and Apple Music and everywhere else that music has found is an opera called The Outer Edge of Youth. And in this piece, I imagine a relationship between two young boys who are uncommonly quiet and sensitive. And find a friendship with one another that's rooted in their shared love for the beauty of the natural world. And the landscape around them. This piece is set in an imagined forest that, for me, is very similar to the coastal redwoods of Northern California. And these boys find, one day in the forest, that they're able to understand the words of the birds singing in the trees. And in the course of the piece, the boys have an extended dialogue with the birds on the subjects which are the most urgent to them, at the end of their youth and the beginning of their adolescence. And so they speak with the birds about the nature of love and human relationships. About the nature of compassion. The relationship between humans and animals. About the nature of beauty. And the possibility of the divine. And also the difficulty of having a spiritual life in a broad, secular world that we live in. And all of these questions are left unresolved. 

But it's a slow and contemplative work that really just dramatizes the world that's gone on in my head for so much of my life. Which is how to reconcile the intensity of human emotion with an appreciation of landscape with inspiration in the natural world. And with a society which quite often makes it very difficult to live and be in touch with these things. Which doesn't privilege this kind of slow appreciation of beauty. So that work is streaming everywhere and maybe we can listen to a short excerpt from it now. 

Pihkala: That will be excellent. So here's an example.

[audio excerpt from The Outer Edge of Youth]

Doherty: Yes. Now this is beautiful. I love our podcast because it always kind of works out. I've been struggling with helping people make sense of their connection / disconnection with nature. This is both-and kind of situation. The fear that's now coming into people. And then, for me, it's coming back to this idea that it's the end of innocence. When we're children we have a  blessed unknowing. We have a beautiful natural innocence of nature. But as adults, we let that go. We can go back to it as an adult, though. And think about it. And learn from it still. 

But it's not the same. And, you know, we are adults, and we do have this knowledge. So I feel like our conversation has described that a little bit. Because I think, Scott, you've been able to kind of as an adult  go back to that. That fraught, you know, fruitful time. And then the idea of having the birds, you know, be the advisors is really beautiful. And captures some of that magic of childhood that we can evoke in art.

Pihkala: Yeah, the French philosopher Paul Ricoeur, who lived in the States for quite some time, had this idea of “second naivete.” So, you know, the first naivism, in a good sense, is when you are a small kid. But then for some issues, the human task would be to cultivate an ability for a sort of second naivete. So he was thinking of this with several issues. 

But that's something that comes to my mind when listening to this. And perhaps that could be applied for connections with a more than human world, also. There's definitely good reasons for that, as I hear you, both Thomas and Scott saying. It's been a very fascinating conversation. I've greatly enjoyed it. And warm thanks, Scott, that you could join us. We have to wrap up relatively soon. But what's on your  minds, Thomas and Scott, as we start wrapping things [up]?

Doherty: Well, the idea of naivete. We recently spoke to poet Kim Stafford and he spoke quite forthrightly about claiming that naivete in his poetry. And now he gives a voice to the raindrops and various things like that. So there is almost kind of a. If it's done well, it's a very radical and very mature act. A very fruitful kind of generative act if it's done well. And so just looking back to the episode. I refer listeners back to the episode with Kim as well, in this regard. 

But, Scott yeah, where does your creative life lead you these days? And how does it feel? We don't need to open up a long chapter here. But like, I know you're in Philadelphia now, which is a very different place than Santa Cruz or the California redwoods. So what's your creative life  leading you even today, in this week?

Ordway: This project has really opened a lot of creative possibilities for me. And going forward, I'm looking for new projects that similarly use this process of journalistic and documentary text gathering to tell stories that are grounded in the experiences of people in the contemporary world. 

And I'm also designing projects that continue to use photography and video as ways to enrich. and kind of augment the texts and the music that I'm creating. So I'm really interested in this idea of multimedia work. And creating works that are able to speak directly to the public about issues that people care about. And to do so using music which connects with those deepest and hardest to access places of who we are as people

Doherty: It's so nice that we're having arts in our podcast here. I'm really gaining from it in our show notes we'll have links to Scott's works. And some neat interviews with Scott. And also some other examples of music that are out there. For people in the know, they know there are composers that have been doing climate related work for some time. 

But for some others, you know, we're not clued in. So there's some links to follow this or ourselves. And I think we'll be. Scott, I'm going to be delving into your work a little more. Now that I have the personal story it makes it so much more special to think about.

Ordway: Pleasure speaking with you both.

Doherty: Panu take care of yourself, have a good evening. And you all take care. Listeners, you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com and see our past episodes. You can also find us on Patreon. And you all be well. Take care. 

Pihkala: Take care. 

Ordway: Thank you.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com. 

image credit | Levi Guzman

Thomas and Panu take a moment to “sit around the fire” at the end of 2022 and winter time in the northern latitudes, as Panu watches the snowy weather in Helsinki, and Thomas muses about world events and his family’s yearly solstice ceremony. Listen in as the pair reflect on global dangers and our feelings about them —ranging from the brutal conflict in Ukraine and renewed threat of nuclear war to new and often unexpressed stress and unease as our seasons and weathers change around the world. And, holding the contradictions: Watching exciting World Cup matches against the backdrop of systemic injustices, and the “holiday season” with its frenetic, electronic consumerism and opportunity for simple, authentic connections with loved ones. Panu and Thomas model the healthy process of ecological conversations: sharing the deep and dark thoughts we have with safe and trusting listeners, bearing witness, and also naturally finding the bright parts of life, gratitude and “permission to feel joy.” Remember, you are not alone. Please find your own healthy rituals. Look forward to more unique episodes of our podcast in the new year and please support us at Patreon and at climatechangeandhappiness.com. 

• “Sit Around the Fire” From composer Jon Hopkins with spoken word by Ram Dass 

• Viola Sampson, “Darkening quarter”, in Rust, M.-J. & Totton, N. (eds.) (2012), Vital signs: Psychological Responses to Ecological Crisis. Karnac, pp. 3-16. Available for purchase.
  
  And so, I begin to see that this darkening quarter of the year is a turning of fullness and expanding into the darkness. It is an opportunity to stay present to the darkness within and without, and not shrink from the cold or the world's grief. It is an opportunity to inhabit the greater darkness of the Earth, allowing its shadow to imbibe me and draw me inwards and downwards into my roots.

• Jolabokaflod: An Icelandic holiday tradition to adopt?

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty. 

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. 

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. This is our podcast. Our show for people around the globe who are thinking and most importantly, feeling—take a breath there listeners—who are feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. Our emotional responses. And how all these issues sit with us in our lives. 

And Panu and I are sitting here toward the end of 2022. And we have a metaphor of we're not personally together, we're drawn together through our technology. But we're metaphorically sitting around the fire here. Gathering our thoughts about the end of the year. The show is a public conversation about climate feelings, climate emotion, some of our professional and our academic research work and our guests and people that are exploring this and also just the personal side. And all you listeners have your own personal side. So we're here to talk about some of this and really have a sitting around the fire end of the year energy for ourselves. And as I talk about these things, Panu , what's up for you there in Finland, near Helsinki at this time of the year?

Pihkala: When I look around, from this place, sitting next to the fire, I see a lot of snow, which personally is a great source of joy. And for many Finns, we are a people accustomed to snow. In Helsinki, which is near to the Baltic Sea, it's always been a bit more irregular than inland. And now with global warming, it's been getting even more irregular. We even had one winter a couple of years ago, when we had practically no snow at all. And people were pretty miserable. And no cross country skiing, no going downhill for kids. And even the public health impacts are serious because there's less light and that sort of thing. So now there's lots of gladness, because of the heavy amount of snow. And it's been here since mid November. 

But of course, as usual in life, there's ambiguities. At the same time, we are living this special time when there's war in Ukraine. And energy transition is going strong in  Europe, but still, there's gonna be a lack of electricity in the winter and many people in Finland are also afraid of how high the cost of their electricity bill will be. So this nice snow with winter with cold temperatures is also going to bring some trouble here.

Doherty: So yes, where you are in Finland, this terrible war and conflict in Ukraine is very much more present in your daily life [than] for listeners that are not not close to that conflict. And does it cause fear and worry in your family?

Pihkala: Well, the human mind is quite adaptive. And springtime was very difficult for many Finns. There was the cumulative impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. And then the war began, and it evoked lots of national traumas in Finland, about the difficult relations with our East neighbor. There's also been lots of great cultural exchange between Finland and Russia. So I definitely don't want to characterize it only as a struggle or rivalry. But there is also the very troublesome history of the Second World War. And we still have people who lived through that period. And it's much present in the national psyche, so to speak, so that's been causing lots of fear and worry and anxiety. 

But then as the months go on, people have calmed down. And there's been all sorts of actions being done and so on. So it's on the back of people's minds, of course. And this connects with a major theme in our podcast, the impacts of the climate climate crisis. Because that's also something that's there, at least on the back of our minds, regardless of how actively we think and feel about it. 

Doherty: Yeah, so you know, we're holding this, this podcast. You know, listeners, if you're new, this podcast is our public conversation. And also our personal lived experience of what we feel about the state of the world. I mean we focus particularly on climate and environmental issues. But we have these meta stressors that all of us are holding. You know, the war. Human’s propensity to be at war with each other. And imperialism and fights over resources in this whole geopolitical chess match of wars that Europe has been beset with, as long as we can see in history. 

And so we're holding space for how war is affecting us, much like climate change. You know, there's direct, indirect and emotional impacts of the war in Ukraine. I mean, it's directly impacting people in Ukraine and in Russia and surrounding areas. The carnage, the destruction, the death, the suffering. You know, it's a true disaster on many levels. And then also the indirect ripple effects of that all through the world. And how it affects our politics and our own economy. And whether we have heat in the winter, you know. And then the emotional impacts of just sitting from a distance and knowing it's all occurring, even if we feel relatively safe, and untouched, where we are. We're not untouched emotionally about all these kinds of things. 

So just, you know, again, to the listeners, just realizing you're not untouched, emotionally. Your emotions and feelings are activated. You know, your body sensations. All the emotions in your body. And then we're talking about the language for our emotions. Our feeling language. You know, anxiety is another thing for people.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. When there's so much uncertainty about whether there's gonna be snow, or what the winter's gonna be like. So this snow anxiety or winter longing or winter grief. And the Finnish equivalents are something that I've been often discussing, both in the Finnish media and in some international media also. And we've been thinking together with some colleagues that what kind of social practices would we need to encounter these kinds of emotions and feelings? So perhaps some events, at least talking about it's doing some symbolic actions that go to the territory of art and performance and ritual and so on. But now, we are living in the midst of the snow so no need for that now. 

And one big dimension of these macro worries, or global stressors is, of course, the threat of nuclear war. And that's something which the war in Ukraine, also fortified and strengthened in many people's minds. And that impact, I think, extends also beyond Europe, but it's probably the heaviest in Europe. But how about you, Thomas, what's on your mind when you're sitting around this fire in the dark time of winter?

Doherty: Yeah, so here in the Northern Hemisphere, it's the dark time. So there's this great kind of tug of war between wanting to be quiet and to be comfortable and to, you know, hibernate a little bit. And then also the pull towards celebration and Hanukkah and Christmas and other holidays. And, of course, consumerism and all the advertising and cultural rituals. And then also with the positive parts of gathering with family. And I have family members that are coming into town. Literally, you know, staying at my home and coming to see myself. 

My daughter is performing in a school Christmas performance the next couple of nights that has all the young people. The school band, all the different musicians in the school. And the choir, and the dancers and artists. All the students put on a winter festival celebration that's quite beautiful. And so just such such warm, positive feelings about all of those kinds of things that are happening all around the world. So just listeners can kind of be thinking about this. Again, holding space for our personal lives. And then also all this heavy stuff with just the tragic human actions in Ukraine and the threat of nuclear war. And I think this time of the year, people will because we are going through a transition of a changing global climate there is loss. Or what we were used to. There's either winter loss, snow loss, because we're letting go of these snow patterns. Particularly people that are mountaineers, or skiers or outdoor people are letting go of what they understand of the winters in some ways. And then, of course, there's summer grief as well, for folks in the Southern Hemisphere. As we know, in places like Australia with black summer fires and things that you know, summer is not the same, either. 

And so we all globally are being stretched and stressed a little bit. And to try to be, you know, make peace and be comfortable with all these global environmental changes. So just, it seems a little bit obvious to say, but this is just something to hold space for. That we're thinking about and, you know, coping and things like that.

Pihkala: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So different cultures, and also subgroups in various cultures will have different things that they hold in great record and significance, and which climate change is then threatening. So I totally agree that there's a great need for cultural sensitivity. And, also, preferably possibilities for people to think about and feel about how this relates to me and the people close to me and the locals. And as you say, Thomas, in some parts of the world, it's more anxiety related to the summer and not to the winter. So that's one example. And I'm also thinking about the discussion we had with Charles Ogunbode and his research of climate change reactions and emotions in Africa, for example.

Doherty: Yeah, what did you take away from our conversation with Charles? What are you thinking about?

Pihkala: Well, many things as you usually do. And it's fascinating to hear a bit about his perspective on life. But of course, growing [up] in Nigeria, and growing up in Finland are quite different areas and still there can be things in common, like, appreciating the local natural environments or the forms of the modern human world. And so, that always strikes me as great contextual differences, but also, the great deal of things we have in common, just by being human, especially if there's similar value orientation.

Doherty: Yeah, I mean this would be the episode that I think will be just previous to this episode for listeners if they're looking. But you know, Charles has studied people's feelings in Africa and East Africa and West Africa about climate change. And really, we talked a bit about that relationship between kind of resignation and fatalism. Like I cannot do anything about this, I have so many other things to think about. I can't really take on this particular global problem. But also a sense of deeper resilience. Well, I'm going to make it through. I've made it through these other problems, too. 

So all of us, I think, are balancing that sense of, you know, resignation, and also resilience. That we're going to make it through, you know. And again, each listener of this episode has their own personal story. And so just even just knowing that you're not alone. Like we recognize that your story of being in your shoes, with your family, where you live on the planet, you have your story. Herein the Northern Hemisphere, we're in this darkening part of the year. So we want to kind of come together and be inside and think about things. You know, in other parts of the globe, people are outside. It's warmer, they're active. They're called into action and things like that.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. And one thing that's been on my mind lately is that a long time project of conceptualizing a process model of eco anxiety and ecological grief finally came out as a journal article in an academic publication. Of course, I always try to do those with a style that would be as easily understandable as it can be in an academic publication. And we'll actually talk about that model in one of the forthcoming episodes. So there's very interesting episodes coming up next year. And now, I don't want to go into too much detail now, but in the model test, key dimensions related to action, grieving, and then having distance. And this having a distance can include both self care and avoidance. 

And I think this is closely related to what you, Thomas, said about the various contexts. And in some situations, people really have to do some distance. So it's not always, always evil, so to say. But it has to be evaluated contextually. That what's the resources of the people to respond? And what are the conditions, both socially and ecologically. But this idea of self care and community care is, of course, something we have been heavily discussing in this podcast also during the year. And that's something that you, Thomas, have been writing about and speaking about for a great number of years. So for me, that's one of the themes that emerges strongly from your written work.

Doherty: Yeah, yeah. Thanks, Panu. Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, I'm really intrigued about your use of the word distance. You know, in your coping model, because I think it's a juicy topic for listeners to think about this idea of distance.  Even in our. I mean, I know, here, where I am, in the US, people are often, you know, swept up in the holiday season. And there's positive rituals. And there's also consumerism. And buying things and advertisements. And, you know, so the distance can be just. If I can kind of articulate this, all these global things we're talking about, at best we remain open to them. Our eyes are open to them. We're bearing witness to all this stuff. We're not in denial about these issues. War, nuclear war, the aggression in Ukraine, the history of colonialism and imperialism in the world, our power grid, and how we rely on fossil fuels. And how that becomes an easy way for global piracy and power to take over fossil fuels. And how we have the potential for different, maybe more just, and sustainable technologies. So just being aware of all that sort of stuff and keeping our eyes open to it. But then we can look away also to other things. 

So I think that's the way to think about it. [It's] like, okay, I'm aware of all these troubling things. And that's in my sight, but I can also turn my gaze toward other beautiful things as well. And my family and my children. And I'm not in denial of those other things. As it came up recently in our conversation somewhere along the line, the whole myth of the ostrich. You know, that the ostrich has their head in the sand. You know, but ostriches don't really do that. That's a myth. You know, when they're under threat, they either move away, or they camouflage themselves, but they don't stick their head in the sand. You know, that human image we have. But ironically, ostriches tend their eggs in underground nests. And when their head is in the sand, it's most likely because they're tending their eggs. 

And so we do have to focus on our own lives. And our own personal health and well being. Our children. Our family. And that's a good place to put our gaze. And it doesn't mean that we're forgetting about all these other things, you know. But, you know, at any given moment, you know. And even in the next few weeks, it's going to be most important to put our gaze with ourselves and our families and on true positive things that are happening. And then not necessarily let this stuff in the world drain us of our joy. That's true joy.

Pihkala: Yeah, exactly. This sort of permission to feel joy. IIolupa would be my Finnish word for that. I think that's a very important topic. And something we touched upon in a conversation with Daniela Molnar, a very interesting artist. And that's gonna come up on the website also. That [future podcast] episode. And it's also closely related to this topic of feelings of inadequacy, which we have discussed a couple of times in the podcast. Because they seem to be so hugely common among people who care about matters. And that can become an obstacle to discuss sort of healthy distancing. That feelings of inadequacy then become stronger. 

So that could be one hoped for takeaway from this episode would be to give ourselves and each other permission also to do some healthy distancing. And self care and community care during  this period. And I think this time in the natural world in the Northern Hemisphere. The darkening quarter, as Viola Sampson, an author of a great essay about this in ecopsychology, puts it. And we could use that also to benefit us, because it can allow us to do some inner journeys. And you can sort of turn a bit inwards from all the hustle in the outer world. And hopefully this time of the seasons would give some possibilities for that for as many people as possible. But I heard, Thomas, you say that in our pre conversation that you've also very literally taken some  time out and sort of retreated some time ago.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, Panu and I always have a little pre-planning conversation before we record. And, you know, we just empty our sack of all the things that we're doing. And just like, you know, as two friends or colleagues would. You know, sitting around the fire somewhere, that's our model today. And I recently did a retreat. I have a practice of doing a mindfulness meditation retreat for myself in early December each year. It's very hard to do, because, of course, I'm a parent. And I have all my work and my deadlines. And so it really takes a lot of courage and energy to tear myself away for a weekend to be in a retreat, reflective mode. But invariably, it helps me to look out at the world with new eyes. 

And so that's part of I think, the potential for this time of the year for people. Is to take a moment just to look at the world. And to find some new eyes. And it's quite existential. I think about just humanity and time and our human culture. I've been reading The Dawn of Everything –the David Graeber and David Wengrow book that many listeners might be aware of. And, you know, just thinking in big terms about time and society. And, again, this play of humanity that we're immersed in. So yeah, I think it comes back to that. That toggling between bearing witness to this terrible stuff, and also bearing witness to the beauty in our lives, and our family and our children. Even things like the World Cup, which is happening today. Or at this time around the world. You know, France and Morocco are playing in the World Cup later today. And that's one of our few global rituals that we have as the World Cup and soccer and football. And there's so many levels to that. The artistry and the athleticism of the football players is just so striking. But of course, the intense marketing and consumerism surrounding the World Cup. And the corruption and Qatar and just the whole backstory of that. So it's a mess of things, right? That we have to deal with there. 

And some people, you know, aren't really aware of all that stuff. But a lot of us are aware of all those different levels. And so we're going to celebrate the players and the athleticism and the adventure of those games. And the celebration and joining together and the singing and the camaraderie. And also realize there's a lot of other pieces going on there. It's just a lot. It never ends, Panu. You know, the news has all these stories about fusion reactors and quantum computing in all these recent scientific discoveries. And, you know, every year there's a new discovery that may or may not be helpful. And all this sort of stuff. So we have to sort of keep our eyes on the true justice and fairness in the world and how to focus on that. Yeah, what else is coming up for you as we kind of chat here?

Pihkala: Yeah.  Speaking of the World World Cup. I've usually watched those. And it's great that humanity comes together. But of course, it's imbued with lots of ambiguities and ethical issues. And those need attention and especially this year, it's been much more ambivalent than usually. And this is something that people together must then discuss and make decisions. And they are often not easy ones to make. 

And speaking of the sort of [The] Dawn of Everything type of things and the solstice time, I've been fascinated by this new documentary about ancient cultures. And once again reminded of how many of the very old structures of humanity, built us calendars linked with the cycle of the sun and the annual year. So this is something that really goes deep into the rules of civilization. And I think it's also a profound statement to the connections between humans and the more than human world. And definitely during this dark time in the Northern Hemisphere, there must have been lots of watching of the stars also during this time of the year. And this is, of course, something very pertinent in relation to electricity. And also global warming and other ecological issues. So that's some counterculture that I think we really would need to also have actual fires and go out in the dark evenings and nights to take a look at the starry sky.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great connection with all the ancient cultures. We know the Newgrange, Stonehenge, the Aztecs. You know, all around the world. These cultural calendars. Tracking. Yeah, so the solstice is coming up here soon in the Northern Hemisphere. I do encourage listeners to be within all the things that are going on, and one of the heart of this season is celebrating the solstice. Either the summer solstice in the south or the winter solstice in the north. 

And, you know, I know myself, my family, and we have a solstice gathering. A very simple solstice celebration every year that I would encourage listeners to think about. Where we go outside in our yard. And we have a fire and we stand in a circle and have candles. And, you know, we reflect on the end of the year. We blow out our candles and let it be dark for a moment. And then we light the candle from the fire. And then in turn, everyone lights each other's candle going around the circle. Just [a] very simple ritual, but it helps us to sort of recognize the end of the old year and the beginning of the new year. And I know for me, as soon as I do that, it helps the whole Christmas thing to make more sense for myself. And all the marketing and things just go away. 

And I realized there's a true core. So I've been able to find a true core of that time of the year that's very authentic. Very simple, very authentic, doesn't cost a lot of money. It just is very analog, you know, it's very human. So I encourage people to find some analog moments. Which I mean, not digital, not on a computer. You know, being out in nature with your head under the stars and feeling the air on your skin. Even taking a long walk or being outdoors can be really helpful for our bodies at this time of the year. So, a lot of it is coping, you know, healthy as always healthy coping for each season of our lives.

Pihkala: Yeah, that's a nice phrase. Seasons of our lives are linked with these natural seasons. And good to hear about this ritual of Solstice we haven't spoken about that ever. And that goes into the category of ritual imagination and creativity. And I think that's one of the crucial skills for us. In this ambivalent time that we are living in. I'd like to share a quote from this essay, The Darkening Quarter by Viola Sampson. Which is from a book called Vital Signs: Psychological Responses to Ecological Crisis, edited by Mary-Jayne Rust and Nick Totton. So here it is. 

And so, I begin to see that this darkening quarter of the year is a turning of fullness and expanding into the darkness. It is an opportunity to stay present to the darkness within and without, and not shrink from the cold or the world's grief. It is an opportunity to inhabit the greater darkness of the Earth, allowing its shadow to imbibe me and draw me inwards and downwards into my roots.

Doherty: That's a very nice quote. And we can put that in our show notes. You know, yeah, different things that draw us down to our roots. That's a good takeaway for us. And for the listeners, you know, what's going to draw you in a healthy way down to your roots here in this particular season. And I want to thank everyone for joining us on our journey. 

This year, I know we have regular listeners around the world. I hear from people that have come, you know, along the journey with us now. And all of our episodes. Over 20 episodes that we've done over the course of 2022. This is the end of our first year on this project. So I really thank the listeners who have supported us. And, you know, you can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com, our website where you can find descriptions of all our previous episodes and links. And you can find this page on Patreon. And we do need support to make this project happen. This is an all volunteer effort. And we need support to pay our very gifted intern. And ideally, we would have support to compensate our guests that come and give up their time. And support for technology and things like that. So at people's end of the year, think about supporting our podcast, among other things in your life. And Panu, what's going to happen here in a little bit as after we sign off?

Pihkala: Yeah, it's a dark, snowy evening in Helsinki. And the boys will soon be home from their hobbies. And the academic year is getting close to its end. So one more week of work and going over some essays by students. I do some teaching, mostly research. So that's on my agenda before taking a break from the computers. And during Christmas, and New Year. And how about you, Thomas? What's up?

Doherty: Well, like a lot of listeners, I have guests in my home. And I have my mother-in-law. My late wife's mother is visiting. And we have family and we're gonna watch my daughter in a performance among all of her fellow students this evening. Also one of my jobs today is to be a dad and to hold space for my 15 year old daughter who's nervous about her big dance performance. And really just have joy in the beauty of all these young people and all their talents. 

And I'm going to root for the best team to win in the World Cup match today. And I have my own heavy journey of writing and things that I'm trying to do and create, which I'll try to put some time into today. So I feel like I've done my work. My daily work. Yeah, so I wish that for all of us that you can get your daily duties done and also find some joy. So our theme, one of our themes today was permission to find some joy at this time of the year. And that doesn't doesn't mean that you're burying your head in the sand. There are truly some beautiful things in the world to be thankful for at this time of the year. So take care of yourself, Panu.

Pihkala: You too, Thomas. And thanks all the listeners for this and do take care.

Doherty: Take care everyone. We'll talk to you in the new year. And you all have good holidays however you celebrate them.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com. 

image credit | Oluwakemi Solaja

Panu and Thomas were joined by Charles Ogunbode, a psychology researcher at the University of Nottingham in the UK, in a dialogue about anxiety and other eco-emotions around the world. Charles shared insights from his widely reported paper “Climate anxiety, wellbeing and pro-environmental action: Correlates of negative emotional responses to climate change in 32 countries.” His study found that while climate anxiety is hurting people’s mental health around the world, from Brazil to Uganda, Portugal to the Philippines, people’s ability to speak out and take action is curtailed by lack of free speech and ability to demonstrate in many countries. Charles described his early interest in wildlife protection in Nigeria and his formative discoveries of research on conservation psychology and unconscious aspects of emotions like the melancholy that we can feel in relation to widespread destruction of the natural world. He described how his current projects create nuanced portraits of how Africans perceive the harms posed by climate change that move beyond simplistic stereotypes. Thomas, Panu and Charles reflected on unique environmental emotions and coping responses of citizens of East and West Africa that, given their shared colonial histories, feature both resignation about climate threats and also a deep resilience. Listen in and join us! 

• Charles Ogunbode

• Media on Charles’ research:  Study: Climate anxiety is spreading all over the planet

• Charles Ogunbode, et al. 2022 “Climate anxiety, wellbeing and pro-environmental action: Correlates of negative emotional responses to climate change in 32 countries.”

• The MECCA project: Targeting Mental Models of Climate Change Risk to facilitate Climate Action

• Psychological Adaptation to Climate Change Risks among Adolescents and Young Adults in the Pacific Small Island Developing States

• Charles reports he is an Associate Editor of the new journal, Global Environmental Psychology and is co-editing a special issue of the journal on “Living with Environmental Change” with Susan Clayton. (Hear from Susan in Season 1, Episode 6: “Environmental Identity and “Climate Flow”).  

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Well, hello, I'm Thomas Doherty. 

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. 

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. This is a show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change and other environmental issues. We focus on our personal emotions, our feelings, our private lives. And today, we're really happy to have a guest with us.

Charles Ogunbode: Hello, I'm Charles Ogunbode. I'm an assistant professor in psychology at the University of Nottingham, in the UK. And it's really nice to join you today on the podcast.

Doherty: And we're so happy to have Charles. Charles has been very active as a researcher, really expanding our understanding of climate emotions around the world. And I know Charles, you've been focused also on your own family and your own life. Panu, do you want to get us started today on our global conversation?

Pihkala: Definitely. And warmly welcome Charles also, on my behalf. We have met online talking about young people and climate anxiety. But it's really great to have a more relaxed and free flowing opportunity for discussions. And there [are] also links. I'm from Finland, as many listeners know. And Charles has been leading really international research where one of the countries has been Finland. Not me, but my colleagues have been involved in that.
I know, Charles, a bit about your history. That you've been in many places. So would you like to get us started by telling a bit about your personal and professional journey?

Ogunbode: Yes, thank you. Thank you, Panu. So basically, my background didn't really begin in psychology. I did a degree in wildlife management. Because when I was younger, I got interested in conservation. And I actually wanted to become a conservationist. So in the course of my degree, I went and did a whole bunch of sub practical training things and different nature reserves and national parks and things like that in Nigeria. And in the process of doing this experience, gaining activities, I soon figured out that a lot of the issues were not to do with the actual sub scientific or ecological aspects of the problem. A lot of the issues were to do with people. So it was, you know, conflicts between park rangers and local communities. You know, a lot of it was mistrust between the different parties involved. People not being very clear about what the purpose of conservation activities were, and things like that. 

So I thought, okay, I'm really interested in doing something around the human side. And incidentally, just towards the end of my undergrad degree, I just happened to stumble on a book, titled Conservation Psychology. Which was written by Susan Clayton and Gene Meyers. It was given to me as a present, just random. And I read this book. And I thought this is exactly what I want to be doing. So that was the sort of start on this. I signed up to do a master's program in psychology. And carried on sort of looking into things that probe environmental behavior. And things like that. And that's basically developed into what I do now.

But the more sort of recent history of what's brought me to sort of emotions and well being and things. Which has become quite a big focus on my work now. That kind of happened a few years ago. [The] last three, four years. Maybe three years. When we had our first child, my wife had eco anxiety. Climate anxiety. We lived in Norway at the time. And I was already working on climate change at this point. And I was doing work mainly around trying to encourage people to be more concerned about climate change. Trying to get people more engaged. And basically, my outlook at the time was very much focused on risk perception models. Trying to be like, you know, if people really understood the risks posed by climate change, then they will be a motivator to act. That was, you know, in summary, my driving motivation. 

But then when I saw my wife go through this phase where, you know, she was consuming lots of information about climate changes on social media and getting involved in loads of things. And she was just in a really sort of anxious state about this. And we had this child. And, you know, I think it's a combination of that particular phase in our lives. And also, you know, this big lumination thing. We just brought a child into this world. And, you know, there are all these things. And it was just really stressful. And that made me start to think a bit differently about what it means to be emotionally engaged with, you know, climate change and the ecological crisis in general. And it was around this time as well that, you know, the Friday's for Future and, you know, Extinction Rebellion. All that stuff really take[s] off. And, of course, climate anxiety as a concept kind of entered the public sort of mainstream consciousness. 

So I would say, actually I really value that period in my life, because I think it made me move from a more, in hindsight, a mechanistic understanding of what emotions are in relation to the climate crisis. To where I am now where I like to think, well, one of the things I'm advocating at the minute is how we need to have this ethic of care around how we communicate about climate change. And try to motivate people. And things like that. It's not enough to just be well, let's just find a button that's going to make people engaged and act. We also have to think. We've got to have some responsibility as well. For these forces, and these reactions that we're trying to generate with people. So that's, in short.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks so much, Charles. That's very rich. And I really value this openness with which you are describing that journey. And this already connects to a huge number of issues we have been touching on [in] this podcast. There's the so-called ecological identity or environmental identity. And very interesting to hear about this early history of yours. And I guess for many people, it goes like this. That there's a place and an ecosystem. And that's happening. And also the sort of better paradigm than “we need more information”. 

Ogunbode: Yes. 

Pihkala: That happened for me, also. It was really eye-opening to then start looking at another way. And the works of Renée Lertzman and Ro Randall and some others were very influential for me in that regard. So there's some points that I can also personally connect with here.

Ogunbode: And actually to add to that someone else whose work was also very critical in that transition for me was Renée Lertzman. The first sort outside of my social cognition paradigm and where I am normally. The first piece of work I read that took me. Kind of started to develop an understanding of emotions was her book, Environmental Melancholia. I think it was. That was a really good book for me to kind of get started on this new direction.

Doherty: This is great. Yeah. I'm really enjoying our conversation. And there are so many commonalities. Panu and I both have done outdoor work in the past. And my background doing outdoor therapy and river  guiding. And I also considered going into wildlife conservation. And then actually had a turning point where there was study environmental studies or psychology. So I think that's common for a lot of the therapists that I've worked with. That they've had these backgrounds. 

And just the listeners. I think the listeners can identify with all of this process that we're talking about. Going from the intellectual to the emotional. And psychologists in particular are very intellectual type species. And so really moving to the emotional and the depth. More depth psychology. And more the psychoanalytic archetypal directions like Renee and other thinkers. And yeah, the insight of we need to take care of people, not just push levers and buttons in a behaviorist kind of way to get people to act. But there is this compassion for us all. As I say climate hostages because we're all kind of stuck in many ways in this area. 

Do we want to go into more of the international and what we're? It seems like one of the many things you're doing, Charles, is really illustrating that eco anxiety and feelings about — even to step back and say everyone has feelings about nature. And the environment. And their connections. And their identity. And you've been studying this in different countries outside of the countries that are often  listed in the studies. The Finlands and the US and the UK and Canada. Would you want to talk a bit about what you've been learning in your research the last few years?

Ogunbode: Yes. That's been a really interesting journey as well. And I think one of the reasons why kind of, it's got this resonance for me. I'm very driven to bring in, you know, the voices of the people we hear less about in this area. Especially to do with emotions and things. So there are a couple of things that have kind of dovetailed in that work to make me feel really invested in it. So the first part is before I started to think about emotions, in this way, I've always had this pet peeve about the concept of climate literacy. So there's been a lot of work out there where they rank countries around the world talking about, you know, what proportion of the population understand what climate change is. So usually, it's you know, they're familiar with the term as a technical term. Do they understand that it's caused by humans? Do they understand it? Very much that's the sort of technoscientific construct of climate change. And it's like, you know, how many people around the world share that understanding. 

And I've always found that to be quite problematic, because when we look at places like Africa. When we look at parts of Asia. And when we look at, you know, people don't necessarily have access to the language. And that would be English or French. Or whatever, that dominant language of science is. But it doesn't mean that they don't have an understanding of climate change. They interact with climate change on a daily basis. they're affected by climate change. Their lives are shaped by climate change. And to say these people are not aware of, they're climate illiterate. It just feels very arrogant. And I found it quite problematic. 

And more importantly, than that, the proposed solution was usually oh, we need to educate people. We need to give them more information so they really understand, you know, what the scope of the issue is and things like that. And while I'm sure a lot of the motivations behind this are completely benign, I just feel if we kind of thought about it, it'd be more critical. Especially in Africa. And I can  mainly speak for Africa because I'm from Nigeria. And I've had that African experience. And I can say, you know, the English language, this sort of Western understanding of science approach to science came to us through colonization. So basically, saying that you want to educate people to bring them up to speed with your western understanding is essentially saying you want to reinforce those colonial processes. You know, the part and parcel of education is not neutral. In that sense. 

So I feel the climate change research community hasn't necessarily been that critical, or adequately critical around that topic. And then the way it connects with eco anxiety work is also that in a lot of the work that has been done, again, in Africa, looking at, you know, the human side of climate change, and how it's experienced where the impacts are. The questions have been very basic. You know, the emphasis has been on, particularly sort of agrarian communities. And things like that. And, you know, are people able to feed themselves? Do they have access to water? You know, that kind of thing. And not that those aren't important questions. They are important questions. But the problem is, the research never really progressed beyond that. It's almost like, you know, as long as they're alive, it's fine. And none of the other things that are necessary to have a full meaningful life. Dignified life. Ever seems to be considered. 

So that was why when the eco anxiety started to pick up as well, I thought, well, why are we not seeing anything really, outside of, you know, North America and Western Europe about this. Again, it's that same thing about how, you know, it's really important here. We have all these complex emotions. And all the things that are important, but other people around the world, we don't really bother to ask how they're feeling. So I thought that was something that needed to be set right. So that's been a big motivation to do the work that I've been involved in over the last couple of years. Trying to collect data on this from all over the world. And that work has been really rewarding because I then kind of connect it to other people. And it's become something even more than what I started out thinking about initially. 

So initially, it was just about, look, we need to get a sense or get a measure of how people feel about climate change. It's not just about, you know, what they understand. Just how do they feel, at whatever level of understanding they are. Because I think emotions actually can tell us a lot about what people think. Beyond just asking someone, you know, how do you understand climate change? What does it mean to you, etc. I think we're quicker to be able to get a sense of how we feel about something before we're actually able to put it together cognitively to say, this is my attitude. And this is my belief. Or whatever. We just have that. You know, like intuition and things like that. I thought, you know, this is such a good way to  bypass the poor climate literacy thing and just focus on how people feel. 

Yes, so that's kind of been a big part of it. And then what's kind of also developed out of it more recently, that's become also quite exciting for me is, of course, we then had the projects. Invited loads of people. And work together. Gathered all this data. But then it goes thinking about the way we actually do the research. So it's not just about the questions we're asking and what issues we're tackling. But it's also, how did we get here? You know, we started with a very small group. It was myself and a bunch of colleagues from many European countries who started up the project. Essentially we came to it with an understanding of what climate anxiety was and invited people to help us figure out if that applied in a whole range of countries. 

We never really asked our collaborators, you know, what's it like, from your side? You know, how do you think we should measure this? Does this even make sense to you? You know, so we've now more recently been spending a bit more time just kind of reflecting on the process. And also thinking about how potentially this could not only inform what's happening around climate, emotions research, but also become a template for psychological research on sustainability and climate change in general. To really, you know, properly embrace this global outlook and understanding. This idea is one way of seeing the world. One, society. One group is not more important than another one where we have a collective problem. And we need all, you know, perspectives. All hands on deck, basically, to make sense of it and navigate our way out of it.

Pihkala: Yeah, thanks for sharing all that. And I think there's hugely important things related to the colonial history. And how it links with climate science. And giving [an] emphasis on the lived experience of people. Often in the complexity. And also listening to other kinds of information than just, you know, the rational, cognitive, put into word type of thing. And sometimes folks in environmental education have also got very interesting results when they ask kids to make drawings, for example. And then people are very surprised at what actually comes out of that. Have you gotten feedback, for example, from Nigeria, or other countries?

Ogunbode: Yes. So, there's some work, which. We've gathered all this data. And we're going through it now. So the project I was involved in, which looks at people's understanding of climate change in eastern West Africa. So the West African side of the project focuses on Lagos, in Nigeria. It's a coastal city. It's the biggest economic center in the city. And it's got a very interesting sort of dynamic around climate change, because the government had invested a lot of money in climate change adaptation because essentially, the city is threatened by rising sea levels. And things like that. But in the process of delivering these climate adaptation projects, there's also been a lot of forced evacuations of some of the traditional communities that lived on the coast. And they're essentially making this development that also doubles as luxury housing for rich residents. So it's quite a complicated scenario there. So it's been really interesting to get all the data in from there. Talking to people in Lagos about their feelings about climate change. And what they understand climate change to be. What kinds of actions they're taking, etc. And we're just working our way through that data right now. 

And then in East Africa, we also are working with communities in Kenya, Tanzania, and Uganda. Countries on the what's called on the coast of Lake Victoria Who sp depend on the lake for fishing. And we're talking to them about their experiences of climate change as well. And their feelings about it. How it impacts them, etc. And basically, when we started this project, at its core, it's a natural sciences project. So we've got this sort of modeler. We're doing all kinds of hydrological modeling in Lake Victoria to see what the scientific objective, you know, climate change trends are there. Same as with Lagos as well. And then the idea of the project was for our social sciences to come in. So there's myself and Caroline Van Den Berg, who is also an environmental psychologist at Utrecht. And colleagues in the University of Bergen as well. So a bunch of psychologists anyway constitute the social science side of the project. And we're supposed to come in basically and speak to people. Get their impression of what's going on with climate change. And then essentially bring this data to the objective natural sciences data. And see the degree to which there is agreement or not, in what people think compared with the measurements that have been taken by the scientists. 

But it's been a really good opportunity, as I said, to kind of get a feel for how people think about it. And one of the interesting things actually I've been doing, which was how that photo came about. As the slide where I misspelled your name Panu. It was basically me applying your taxonomy of climate emotions to the reports that we got from people in Nigeria to see how much of those emotions you identified in your paper represented in the spontaneous accounts that people give. So all we've asked them is, how do you feel about climate change? That's it. There's no pre question. There's nothing. It's just their spontaneous reactions. And it's been really interesting to see what kinds of things we will come up with. It's raised a lot of questions actually about not just the emotions that people feel, but also the language that's available to them to describe the emotions that they have. 

So it's been really interesting. So a lot of people the dominant emotion, strangely, seem to be indifferent. So it's been really interesting to try to delve into what that means. Because normally, when we think about indifference in the Western context, it's, you know, I think you described it actually, it is categorized in among these of hostile emotions. It's a rejection. It's, you know, of whatever the issue is. Whereas in Nigeria, it seems to be something closer to resignation. Where it's not coming from a place of not caring. But it's coming from a place of either, well, they're just so many other things. So many other pressing concerns. Or this just seems to be beyond my ability to do anything. So I'm just not. I'm not even going to be worried about it. Because that takes too much energy, you know. So that's a big one. And then in East Africa, the dominant feeling is sadness. You know, when you ask people they just say, oh, I'm really sad this is happening. I'm really sad about what the implications are going to be. I'm really sad because, you know, in the future we'll have less food. Or children will be, you know, negatively affected, etc. And, again, it's a negative emotion, but it's not one that really speaks of activation or action, if you know what I mean. 

So yeah, it's really interesting, kind of looking through that data. And the plan is to try to feed it back to some of the local organizations working in these areas. And trying to think well, how can we, you know, what do we do to kind of support people and make sure that, you know, these feelings get channeled into some kind of action that will be beneficial for, you know, sort of just resolving the issues. The challenges that people are facing. Because to be realistic, for a lot of these people, they genuinely do not have a lot of means to have an impact. You know, so we're talking about people who are kind of disenfranchised as far as political systems are concerned. They're, you know, relative to someone like me or you, they're quite far away from the centers of power. If you know what I mean. They're not in a position to put pressure on leaders to do anything like that. So yeah, it's a very interesting scenario, where it's been really informative. Really helpful to be able to learn about it. And just bring that into, you know, my understanding. And my colleagues' understanding of just the global landscape of, you know, climate change. the human experience of climate change. Anyway. 

Pihkala: That's very interesting. Just some brief comments from me. And then I'll drop the ball to Thomas. This issue of different words for emotions and feelings in different languages and cultures, is something me and Thomas have been very interested about. And, of course, the Finnish language plays a big role in that for me. And there's some things we have a word for, in affective phenomena in Finnish that don't exist in English. And the other way around. And what you are saying about indifference, for example, is highly interesting. Because I see many variations in sort of, kind of calm acceptance, totally calm. And it's difficult to find a word. But if you just can't do anything about it [the climate crisis], then you may have in a way engaged with it, but then just made the estimation that, you know, it's totally beyond me.

Ogunbode: Yeah.

Pihkala: That's something that I wonder if some language has a good word for that, which would bring the connotation instantly. 

Ogunbode: Yeah. 

Pihkala: What's on your mind, Thomas, when listening to this very rich conversation?

Doherty: Oh, yeah, I'm really, you know, to bring the listeners in particularly, I'm thinking of you listeners in the US. You know, I've been looking at the map just to orient myself. And I do recommend people pull out a map and just, you know, locate Lagos and Lake Victoria. And just to get a sense of the part of the world near the equator that we're talking about. And, you know, it's such a different context with colonialism, as you say. Just the political situation and cultures in Africa. 

It makes sense once we look at this, why the findings would be that, you know, the sense of being able to take action. You know, it is more prominent in European countries and US countries. You know, wealthier countries. There's a lot I mean, for us, and for the listeners thinking about our emotions. So this idea of indifference and sadness. Which I think people feel in the US, too. I think actually parts of the US people feel very much similar. That's partly why we have political issues in the US. People are very much disenfranchised. We have a very unequal country. And so when we think about this calm acceptance, I wonder, is it, to get more nuanced again about the feelings, is it fatalism? Or is it also a kind of resilience? Right? So is it sort of like, we will endure. That's just, not having ever been to Africa, my sense of a lot of African cultures is there as a sense of resilience in the sense of endurance. This sense of humor. You know, the sense of teaching stories and things like that. 

So I wonder about fatalism versus resilience. So that's one direction to go. And then just to acknowledge, and Charles, you might have thoughts about this too. You know, I feel like in places like the US and Finland, there is more of the sense of guilt and shame. As someone privileged. Whereas there's, probably in Africa, people feel guilty and shameful of their privilege. But the privileges are different. 

Ogunbode: Yeah. 

Doherty: Less evenly distributed through the countries. But I don't think people in Africa are immune to shame and guilt either. So just staying a little more with all these nuanced feelings would be interesting.

Ogunbode: Yeah. No, absolutely. I think those emotions are certainly relevant in that context, as well. And there was one person who explicitly used the term guilt. And they were talking about it in terms of. I mean, presently there's still a lot of people who don't quite realize that climate change is something that's driven by processes beyond their local context. So a lot of people would say, oh, it's because of the trees that are cut down, you know, somewhere down the road. Or it's because of those factories or some. So there's that sense of local responsibility. And there is some guilt around people. So most people wouldn't necessarily use the word guilt. There was that one person who did. But from the description of where they think these problems have come from, there is a sense of, we're doing a disservice to future generations and our kids and things like that. 

So those emotions are perfectly relevant in that context. And that's part of the reason why I think there's emphasis on the technical understanding of climate change. And who has it? And who doesn't. It's the wrong direction to be looking at. Because the people arrive at the same kinds of outcomes. And have the same kinds of reactions. And they make logical judgments. And it's not so much the specific kinds of information that they're working with that really matter in that process. But it's how they come to make those judgments. How those feelings come to arise. And what the consequences of those feelings are. Those are the sorts of things that I think are probably more important. And so I think, to a large extent, there's sorts of drives to make restitution or restoration and things like that. I think they are present as well. 

And these are the sorts of things that I'm really hoping that the more we can generate this kind of information. And get them in the hands of, you know, active campaigners and educators in this context, then they can really begin to channel those drives into more constructive channels. Because the other thing I find a bit frustrating sometimes is I've really appreciated the emergence of a focus on sub-climate justice, for example. Basically justice framings of the climate discourse. But I also see that within that, our role as African or people in the Global South in general, is to be the soft victim of the problem. And I think it's quite  disempowering, in a way. And so I think we also need to not just, you know, while we're recognizing and engaging the structural issues, we also need to not lose sight of self worth. And, you know, people's individual and collective agency to make change within those systems as well

Pihkala: Yeah, that sounds like a hugely important point both that you're sharing. And I don't know how this is for you, because you are known now in many places as an eco-anxiety researcher. Do people come to you and ask how we should cope with eco-anxiety? And if they did, what would you say?

Ogunbode: I always refer them to people who I know are much more qualified than myself. So I've been really lucky to. For a while I was quite actively engaged with the Climate Psychology Alliance in the UK. Unfortunately, because I just work fresh and stuff going on, family life hasn't really been able to keep me involved as much as I would like. But they've been brilliant. And usually I just say, get in touch with the CPA. Okay, there's lots of really great people there.

Doherty: Yeah. I mean listeners should know that there's so many people working on all these issues all around the world. Charles, I mean, that people in every country you've done that are understanding climate change in their own way and working. And so people don't understand that piece. But then there is a lot, what I call the, you know, the climate elephant or the blind man and the elephant parable. Where everybody has different pieces of climate. And I feel for you, Charles being the human feelings researcher in a room full of climate adaptation people that are all focused on, you know, hydrology.  Because human feelings are still disenfranchised in the climate discourse. You know, the emotions are less present in all the reports. And so there is this intellectual bias. And so that stuff. 

But then even among the people that cares, there's like, well, who can help? Well, you can help, you know. And so the therapists are trying to come in, but then they feel like they don't understand hydrology. And they don't understand the climate. So it is a work in progress for all of us. So if people feel like an impostor, or they don't know enough, that's just quite normal for anyone engaging in this area. Yeah,  we have time for maybe one more point. We can go a little over our time because it's such a rich discussion. Well how do we want to close off our discussion? Charles, is there something else that you want to bring in or that we didn't talk about? Or directions for the future?

Pihkala: Yeah. Thanks once more for dwelling on that. And as you sort of hinted before, that also helps the researchers. So that's my experience, both personally and with my colleagues. So that's the good side of it. And it's advancing a paradigm change, I think, I think you've been in many ways involved in this. And that's something for the listeners also. So no matter where you are, everybody can do something for this Great Turning. That would be Joanna Macy's word for it and other terms. So just being open to these issues, that's already a great step. So not going into that “I can't take this I want to stay away all the time”. [Instead:] “I want to stay.” Very grateful, Charles that you found the time to come and discuss. I've learned a lot today. And it's been a great pleasure.

Ogunbode: Yeah. Well, I mean, this is very much to do with what's been on my mind recently. But I think I'm gonna stay with this for a while, because I think there is a lot of value to working on this. And it ties into what you were saying just now about, you know, there. Suddenly, among psychology, there's a growing proportion of people who are really beginning to take emotions more seriously. Really, I've been really glad, since climate anxiety came around. You know, there are lots of ways we can critique the concept. And there are lots of, you know, issues with it. But it's done one thing, which I think is really important, which has given us this term to talk about emotions that most people can relate to. They know what you're talking about, when you say climate anxiety. They have some sense of it. So we can now talk about that. And what it means. And also it's helped us move away from why people are not worried enough. If only they were worried, then maybe we'll see more action. It's helped us move away from that to a more nuanced understanding of emotions. And that's really important.

And the other half of the equation that now needs to happen is how we then work together to really move this forward. And this is where it connects to what you were saying, Thomas, about, you've got a therapist. You've got people like myself who are just sort of like, you know, psychology researchers and things like that. And I think sometimes it's easy to lose sight of the greater goal. Just because of the incentives within academia. And how it works. And things like that. And it's almost like, you know, you're solving competition, one another, and things like that. But I think it's a really important sort of challenge for all of us to be able to in whatever way, whatever skills we've got on whatever, you know, capacities, we've got to read to, you know, keep in focus that all of these different things complement one another. You know, I've been in some meetings with other psychologists where there'll be some really searing critiques of, I don't know, more some like cognition oriented psychology. And I've been in meetings, I feel like, oh, well, I don't understand this psychosocial stuff or. You know, it very quickly descends into the sort of disciplinary tensions. 

And I just don't think we can really afford that right now. I think we need to maybe put in a bit more effort in getting the different disciplines within psychology to kind of speak with one another and figure out how to kind of work together to achieve the bigger goals. You know, there's been a lot of work by people I really respect. You know, over the last few years. Lots of commentaries. Lots of opinion pieces. Lots of things trying to forge this vision for psychology around emotions research. And it would be great to see more work like that. More people coming together and trying to really push, you know, self drive that collective effort forward. Thank you so much for inviting me. I do feel like I'm in the company of really great people, because I've read so much. I read your work. I read Thomas's work from very early on in my PhD. So your papers with Susan sort of lay out, you know, I love those things. You know, actually do research on them and things. So I really appreciate it. It's great to actually be talking to you in person. And Panu, obviously, you've done tons of stuff. I can only aspire to, you know. So it's really good. So I hope that we will, you know, be able to carry on this conversation in another space at some point in the future.

Doherty: Yeah, me too. And Charles, thanks for carrying the fire and moving it forward and bringing it more worldwide attention. The idea of the ethic of care, I think, is a great takeaway. You know, responsibility for our emotions. And also for holding other people's emotions, even if they're different. Even if they're different. Underlying some of these academics, you know, debates are people's different emotions, too. And so like, you know, really caring for different kinds of climate emotions than our own is good for all of us. Well, thank you. And to the listeners, thanks for joining us again. If you like our content, please think about supporting our podcast. We're a self funded volunteer effort. You can find us at climatechangeandhappiness.com, or on our Patreon page. And otherwise, Panu and Charles, you have a good evening. And I'm going to get on with the rest of my rainy day here in Oregon. 

Ogunbode:  Have a nice day, Thomas. Thank you, take care, Panu.

Doherty: Take care.

Pihkala: Take Thomas, Charles and all the listeners.

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com. 

image credit | Paul Earle

In this episode, Thomas and Panu confront an issue that is commonplace as the impacts of climate change are more widely felt: How can we enjoy our time in natural settings and seek the restoration we crave when our awareness of environmental destruction and our feelings of ecological grief are so strong? Panu shared research about how climate grief acutely impacts many young people and their emotional connection to places. Thomas reminded us that ecological grief has been a perennial challenge among ecologically aware people, even a strange privilege—citing Aldo Leopold’s famous dictum “One of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds”—and looked back to his own youthful confrontations with old growth clearcuts through his “postmodern expeditions” practice. As this podcast demonstrates, we are not doomed to live alone with our feelings about the world. We can join with others that share our values and sense of urgency. And, as our recent discussion with Rosemary Randall taught us, grief is not solely a barrier but also a gateway, an invitation to new ways of being that mourn our losses and reinvest our energy back into life. So too with our potential for re-securing our attachments to places and restoring (re-storying) wounded places. Listen for more details and share in this important discussion. 

The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. Become a Patreon or visit our Donate page. 

• Hickman, C. (2020). We need to (find a way to) talk about … Eco-anxiety. 

  • “All I see is lovely trees and that reminds me that we are killing all the trees and then I feel angry and sad, so I won’t or can’t go there any more. If people stupidly tell me that time in nature is healing all I can say to them is that all I see is dying animals and plants”. 

• Panu recommends Francis Weller, and  Trebbe Johnson’s work on radical joy. 

• Memorials to Extinction and Ecological Loss:

  • Maya Lin: What is Missing

  • Eden Portland project on the Jurassic Coast of Dorsett and Devon, UK

• Research on mental health benefits of landscape restoration

  • Mellor et al (2022). Seeding hope: restoring nature to restore ourselves. 

• Earlier writings on ecological grief:

  • Windle, P. (1992). The Ecology of Grief

• Recent episodes to revisit: 

  • Season 2, Episode 6: On Nature, Poetry and Creativity with Kim Stafford

  • Season 2, Episode 5: On the Birth of Climate Therapy with Rosemary Randall

  • Season 1, Episode 16: Varieties of Hope with Guest Elin Kelsey

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Hello, I’m Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala. 

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. The show for people around the globe who are thinking and feeling deeply about climate change. The personal side of climate change. And other environmental issues. Obviously climate change is one part of a larger suite of challenges that we have. And talking about our emotions. And today it’s Panu and I. And we are doing some of the original work of this podcast which is trying to sort out some of these challenges that we confront personally and that people come to us. Questions that people come to us with. And today we’re getting into this question. This issue. This suffering that people have when they feel uncomfortable or they feel grief going out into nature. So rather than getting this restoration they’re seeking they have to confront these sad and negative feelings. And it gets in the way. And they don’t know what to do about this. And so we’re going to talk about this. And so listeners you can see how this fits for you. But Panu, tell me more about this problem? How are you hearing about it? And how it’s being discussed in the world.

Pihkala: Yeah. That’s something that came up prominently, for example, when we were organizing facilitated discussion groups for people who wanted to talk about their ecological emotions. Especially so-called eco-anxiety. Ympäristöahdistus in Finnish. So this was in Finland. So clearly people who care about the more than human world deeply and who are highly aware of what’s going on, it may be difficult to bear. And so many things may remind people of ecological threats and damage. So the potential triggers for feeling some kind of distress are so numerous that it’s complicated. 

I’m also strongly reminded of interview research done by my dear colleague Caroline Hickman from Great Britain, who has been interviewing children in various parts of the world. And asking about how they feel about climate change. And what are their thoughts about it. And this following is an excerpt from Caroline’s 2020 article We need to (find a way to) talk about … Eco-anxiety. So here’s Caroline:

“A number of young people told me that they no longer felt able to go and spend time in nature because it made them feel so angry and sad and full of grief at the loss of nature that it was now becoming unbearable for them.”

And then follows a quote from a child who is saying: 

“All I see is lovely trees and that reminds me that we are killing all the trees. And then I feel angry and sad. So I won’t and can’t go there anymore. And if people stupidly tell me that time in nature is healing, all I can say to them is that all I see is dying animals and plants.”

All I see is dying animals and plants. So that’s a pretty strong case of becoming so affected. So, what thoughts come to your mind, Thomas, when hearing that example?

Doherty: Well it’s really a beautiful quote. And it speaks to the directness of young people when they come upon these things. I’m just thinking of Greta and other young climate activists who are really calling out these issues. I think this is really important. I think, myself, I have experienced this problem. I know you have, Panu. Anyone listening who’s done any environmental work of any kind. Whether it’s conservation work or landscape work or humanitarian work, has had to confront this. So, I have had this question come up recently in my therapy training group. As therapists are struggling with this, also. 

And so there’s two things going on here. One, it’s novel and new for many people. Like you said in our planning conversation, the extent of this is really important. Many, many people are being able to tap into this now because many, many people are having consciousness raising about environmental issues and climate change. And things like that. Although, we can look back in history and find many people that have already trodden this path. You and I have trodden it. We’ll talk about ways that we cope. And we’ll look at other well known environmental leaders that have spoken about this.

So, the first thing that I tell people is that, first of all, your feelings are true and accurate. You know, the feelings task is important. Let’s just stay with the feelings. Validate. Elevate. Create. Let’s validate this. Put it on a pedestal. Not just sweep it away. Particularly young people. No, let's stay with this. This is important. Tell me more about these feelings. And then let’s get creative about them. When did it start. And what do you do about it. How do you cope. So that creativity like in our recent episode with Kim Stafford. It’s all about sort of having a blank page. But then, realizing, as I always tell myself, if I can think about something then I know someone else already has. And then I can start to sort of see this. You know, what I tell a therapist is that, simply put, this is not a barrier, it’s a doorway. This is a threshold. This is a rite of passage. So it’s a normal part of our development of our environmental identity. It’s stark when these young people have such sad and troubling things to say. But it is a sign of development. It is a sign of moving forward. 

So that’s the way I would start talking about this. As a kind call to adventure. Kind of the hero's journey kind of model. And obviously we want to refuse the call because we don’t want to let go of our innocence and our kind of idea that nature is there for us and pristine and safe. But that’s ultimately a child-like idea that these young people are. It’s kind of being stripped away from them, unfortunately. But I think there are ways to nurture this and move forward. 

Pihkala: Yeah. Thanks for sharing all that. And one phrase that was used I think in an early 2020s report by Lise Van Susteren, a colleague was the working wounded. Referring to people who work with environmental matters. Or simply work outdoors and so can’t escape the facts that there is much happening [in] ecosystems. And it was very difficult for a long time for many of these people because the working communities didn't really have resources for encountering the emotions. As you say Thomas here, you know, staying with the feelings. But instead, in many natural science communities, for example, it’s a totally new idea to talk about emotions at all. Not to mention emotions related to what’s going on in the natural world. So people felt very isolated. And there was lot’s of unhealthy suppression and repression going on. And some people like Phyllis Windle in the 90’s already wrote a very good article about the grief of environmentalists. And that goes much deeper in history as you say, Thomas.

Doherty: Yeah. One of the gifts of the ecopsychology movement. Particularly in the 90s. That original ecopsychology edited volume was that people pulled a lot of these ideas together. And there is a good chapter in there on restoration. So many people have had this insight. That restoring myself and restoring nature are part of the same process. There’s many things. I mean whenever I get into this I always go back to the famous quote from Aldo Leopold. From the Sand County Almanac, you know, one of the penalties of an ecological education is that one lives alone in a world of wounds. Much of the damage inflicted on the land is invisible to laymen. And ecologists must either harden his shell—this is a dated quote in some ways. In terms of gender and things like that. But, an ecologist must either harden his shell and make believe that the consequences of science are none of his business. Or he must be the doctor who sees marks of death in a community that believes itself well. And does not want to be told otherwise, right? And that’s very much what this young person that you quoted is channeling. This kind of thing. But we don’t need to live alone, first of all. 

That’s part of the issue. Most eco anxiety and eco grief, the problematic aspects of it are because we are alone. And we don’t have anyone to share it with. So, we are doomed to live in a damaged world. Humans do impact the natural world. And there is no way of getting around that. But we’re not doomed to be alone with it. We’re not doomed to be, you know, ignorant of it. Or in suppression of it. But obviously these young people are having a meta awakening. They’re awakening to our economic systems and our legal system in which nature and trees do not have any intrinsic rights. Right? And that we do have to kill a lot of trees and harvest a lot of trees. Whether you use the word kill or harvest is notable here. But we do harvest trees. And, of course, native cultures have created and have always had ways to understand the reciprocity of using trees. And animals. And having a relationship with nature that provides a ceremony for all of this interbeing and interconnection. In young people and in our capitalist society we don’t have any ceremonies to hold all this sort of stuff. So it is quite jarring to have this waking up syndrome, as they call it. Particularly with  young people. 

Pihkala: Yeah, definitely. So the awakening or realization can be very difficult. Especially if there’s no community to help you with the awakening or realization. And in many human societies, there’s been ancient traditions designed to deliver potentially traumatic information. Or, you know, these deep facts about the human condition and living on earth. For example, related to mortality and so on. So, something like that would be needed also in relation to the times we are living in now. And many concepts have been used of the state where people encounter these painful truths. Some have been applying frameworks related to post traumatic stress disorder, for example. Getting creative and using terms like mid-traumatic stress disorder [e.g. Mary Pipher, The Green Boat, 2013]. Because we are living in the midst of it. And I think personally and as a researcher that some of that scholarship about post traumatic stress is very fitting. 

But of course we need care in how we use concepts of trauma, for example. And concepts which have the word disorder. So that may have some unwelcome implications. But, some elements of the scholarship like, you know, becoming quite shaken by the images and thoughts. And they are intrusive. It’s difficult to get away from them. And even when you go to a dear forest you start seeing burning trees in your mind. So that has some profound links I think with what the scholars of post traumatic stress are about. But how about you, Thomas, as a therapist? How do you see these issues?

Doherty: Yeah. Well, I think we need to be careful. Particularly mental health therapists need to be careful because their tools are ultimately about disorders. And about trauma. And I don’t know that I necessarily want to saddle young people with trauma in this regard. I think, in the healthiest sense, this is simply a learning process. It’s a way of learning our environmental identity. And I think of it more as a rite of passage in a building capacity versus some sort of trauma. Obviously there are traumatic feelings, but I’m not interested in saddling a young generation to all be trauma survivors and victims. I don’t think that’s very inspiring. And I don’t think that’s what our ancestors would like. I don’t think that’s what native cultures would ultimately think about. Or Aldo Leopold. Or Rachel Carson. Or any of these people. 

So, we have to be careful if your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And so, using some of the healing concepts from trauma work, but not necessarily using pathology as the lens through which we see the world. I don’t find that very inspiring. Rosemary Randall who we. The last two folks who we had on the podcast, Rosemary Randall and Kim Stafford, were great examples of people that were approaching this issue, but in a very growthful way. And very compassionate. And ultimately inspiring. Rosemary Ro used William Worden’s grief work in her work with people who are confronting their own climate impacts. And, you know, so there are road maps here for us, right? You know, accepting the reality of the loss. We have tasks when we’re going through ecological grief. And so when someone is having this barrier to being out in nature, there are some steps. It’s accepting reality intellectually and emotionally. 

The emotional piece is the hard one, obviously. And then working through these. Sharing the feelings. Understanding nuance. What the feelings are. Anger. Grief. Loss. You know, I have my grief map that I use with people. So it’s like are you grieving something from the past? Are you grieving something currently? Are you grieving something that you expect to happen? And all the being with that disorganization. So there’s a period. It’s a rite of passage. Once you open that door and step in. It is confusing. And we don’t know. And our old ways don’t work anymore. And I might keep going to a natural place and be confused about it time and time again. Until I can see that place in a new light. And adjusting to this new environment. And new skills. New sense of self. And putting my energy into this new world. Which is, oh I need to help caretake and have a sense of stewardship for these places. It’s not just the backdrop. It’s not just a product. Or a commodity. Or an Instagram photo, right? You know, young people are sucked into the beauty and the adventure of nature. And they think they can partake of it. And then also the shadow side comes along with it. And that we don’t see the shadow side on Instagram, right? We don’t have a shadow Instagram out there. 

So anyway, listeners should know there are steps. And there are people that have trodden this path before. Many many people. We talked about Rachel Carson and the idea of a sense of wonder recently. Obviously she was able to balance both fear and pain and concern. But also the sense of wonder. But when you think about things that inspire you, Panu, personally what comes up for you? 

Pihkala: Yeah. Several things. Francis Weller. The American West Coast psychotherapist who has written profoundly about grief is one inspiration. And he’s using the metaphor of gates of grief. So that comes to mind. Thomas when hearing your metaphor here. And I’ve really found his work helpful. And in his workshops there’s also people tapping into their feelings of ecological grief. Even though they might have come to the workshop with a different purpose. And of course these are intertwined. You know, various things that happen in our lives become intertwined.

I've been very impressed by Trebbe Johnson’s work. She and colleagues have developed Radical Joy for Hard Times Network. Radicaljoy.org I think is the website. And this method of what they call “Guerrilla beauty”.  But anyway the idea is to go together there, to go into these wounded natural places as they call it. And being aware of the very human temptation of trying to look away, and not going somewhere where painful feelings and memories come to mind. But instead going toward them. Spending time there together. They even sometimes have a sort of method of liminality. Liminality, referring to this sort of rite of passage-like space, where you step away from ordinary life for a while. And then you sometimes step back. So, for example, going on a pilgrimage or a sacred journey is a classic example of a liminal state. 

And so it’s related to this rite of passage thing that you, Thomas, mentioned. But, for example, if there’s some clear cut forest which is dear to you, you may just take a branch and use that to signal a border. A threshold. So crossing that branch you sort of enter into this liminal space with the clear cut. You spend time there. You reflect on the feelings. You do things that your body sort of advises you to do. And perhaps then, also, doing something in return like a small gift of beauty. That’s what they do with the “Radjoy” network. Then stepping back over the branch into everyday life. So it’s quite a creative methodology. And has spread into many countries. And I really like the idea [of Guerrilla beauty] to encounter these painful feelings together. 

Doherty: Yeah.

Pihkala: I guess, Thomas, that that resonates with many things in your ecopsychology work in the past few decades. 

Doherty: Yeah. I mean it reminds me of what I did when I was quite young. I mean I confronted this stuff a long time ago. An interesting experience for me is after I left college—and I still had not had my eco awakening at that point—I was still naive about really the state of the world. And living in this bubble of capitalism. And kind of anthropocentric thinking. And then I went to Alaska and I worked as a fisherman. In Kodiak, Alaska. It was such a wakeup call. I was confronted with all my illusions about what the wild is. And about, you know, nature. And I saw this really utilitarian view of nature and the natural world. And what it takes to actually get salmon and halibut and cod. The fish we eat. And from Alaska. And, you know, I really had this awakening, but I had chosen it. See this was also Ro talks about chosen. When you choose something and learn it, it’s different from when it’s thrust upon you. It’s always nice to come back to our very very first ideas. Before. When we have beginner's mind. Before we become educated and read a lot of journals and articles and things like that. 

And I did some projects called “Post-Modern Expeditions,” I called them. Where I would actually go, when I was living in the Seattle area in Washington state in the US. You know, I would go into a clear cut. And then go into the old growth. And when you walk around a clear cut area, you can find the edge. And you could walk from the clear cut into the forest. And it’s unlike anything you typically see because the edge is so stark. It’s not like walking into a city park where there’s a kind of gradual going deep into the forest. Where there’s a clear cut, in some places you can go from a hot, dry, dusty clear cut, that’s full of sun and the sun beating down on you. And there’s all this slash. And kind of, you know, debris and insects buzzing. And things like that. It’s quite hard to hike through a clear cut area because there’s no paths. And then as soon as you walk into the forest. As soon as you walk into the part that’s not cut, it becomes silent. And cool. And it’s muted. And you realize, oh I’ve stepped into this whole different world. It’s a whole different ecosystem. You know, an old growth forest is immense. A huge canopy. And undergrowth. It’s kind of hard to describe unless you’ve done it. But I would purposely do this. 

That was my first ecopsychology work was plumbing these things. Or canoeing down an industrial river. The Duwamish River in Seattle. Which is full of, you know, factories and container ships and things. And then going twenty miles south and going down the Nisqually. Which is a wildlife refuge. And paddling through there. And realizing this is the same landscape, just two different versions of it. I don’t know why I was doing it, but that’s what I was called to do. But, you know, once you expand your horizons then, you know, you’re not stuck in this kind of painful innocence. So I think where we go with this is like, how do we move toward stewardship? Restoration. Understanding regeneration after fires. After Mount St. Helen’s eruption in Washington. We learned so much about the regeneration of the landscape. And about life. Life and nature are tenacious. And places will restore themselves over time. All the places we’ve lost can and will restore themselves. Maybe not the same anymore because our climate is changing obviously. But that power of restoration I think. And regeneration after a loss. After a fire. Can be quite inspiring for people.

Pihkala: Yeah thanks for sharing that. That’s a very profound experiment and method you mentioned. And I hear a lot of intuition in the method. And can resonate with many parts of it. There’s lots of clear cuts in Finland, also. We have endless ongoing debates about how to treat forests in Finland. And when I was still more involved with Christian congregations, I was sometimes also pretty spontaneously leading grief rituals for clear cut forests. So applying sort of what you have into the situation at hand. So that’s a glimpse from my own history related to these themes. 

But I really think that the embodied dimension is important here. Going somewhere. And then activating your senses. Trying to keep the emotions open. And the eminent grief researcher William Worden, who was mentioned here, he’s been alive and dynamic and changing the wordings in his tasks of grief. Which I think is a great sign of following the times. And an earlier formulation of the fourth task was reinvesting emotional energy and life energy. And, of course, also around us the life energy is moving and replenishing as you, Thomas, say. So I think there’s so much strength in that formulation. But lately he’s been integrating this framework of continuing bonds and emotionally relocating the lost object or person in one’s life. This is too large a topic to go into depth here now. It’s related to things I’ve been doing in my research also lately. 

But I think that by going into these wounded natural places. Or these sort of ambiguous juxtapositions of, for example, the border between a clear cut and an old growth forest. I think that’s working through our affective bonds with the more-than-human world. So working through our affective bonds with the more-than-human world. I think this is what’s going on. And there’s interesting possibilities for integrating grief theories and then ecological grief dynamics.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah. This is such a juicy thing. And we’ll keep coming back to this topic. So listeners you’re taking this in. And kind of seeing how it lands for you. I mean I think the key thing is that this is not a new idea itself. But the newness is the extent of people that are rapidly coming to grips with this kind of loss of innocence. This waking up syndrome. And, you know, so it is a kind of adulting for us to let go of the innocence. Well that’s not the right word. We don’t let go of our innocence. We integrate our innocence with our maturity. And our adult mind. Obviously Kim Stafford who we just spoke to. The poet. He channeled a very kind of infectious, beautiful adult kind of innocence in terms of creativity.

But there is an adulting here. Where we say, we need to take responsibility for this. We are the people that are going to change this. And it is also somewhat of a white phenomenon. I’m thinking of Sarah Ray and some of her writing about this. You know, the people that are more vulnerable to some of this are privileged because they did have this sense of innocence. And a sense of nature is there for me. And these stories. And, you know, the childhood stories about how nature is beautiful. And all this sort of stuff. And so some of the people that are most privileged are the most vulnerable to these feelings. But we don’t want to blame the victim. We don’t want to say well that’s your problem because of capitalism. And you’re first world people so you should suffer. 

Although there is an impulse, I think, among some people to really hold people’s feet to the fire. And say you deserve to suffer. Not because many other people have suffered. And, you know, listeners can tap into that energy too. But we don’t need to reinvent the wheel. You know, people like Louise Chawla and David Sobel. Some of the educational theorists have looked at ways to cope with these kinds of things. Maya Lin has a great website. What Is Missing? Which is an online kind of memorial to extinction. And so I think one interesting thing to think about is our own memorials. I was talking to Panu before we started. I said, is there truly a memorial to extinction? I mean like a Lincoln Memorial style memorial to extinction. There isn’t, unfortunately. As far as I know anywhere in the world. And so that’s kind of what we need. And if we had something like that. Where people could go. And it was publicly recognized from the powers that be, then I think we would feel a little differently about this. But that would be recognizing a huge shadow-side of our society which is difficult. So.

Pihkala: It indeed is. And in my 2017 Finnish book [Päin helvettiä? Ympäristöahdistus ja toivo] I had a subchapter on memorial places. So this is something also that I’ve been thinking about for a long time. And in Britain there’s been this quite large project on so-called MEMO. Mass Extinction Memorial Observatory. [now Eden Portland, UK] So the original idea was to have a quite conspicuous building. But they ended up in financial difficulties. And they are continuing the project in some way. But that was quite an inspiring idea. And then of course smaller scale things have been happening. But also together with some artists in Finland, we have been thinking about these memorials for also climate change. Which is a transitional loss and change. And then extinction which includes these very sort of permanent losses also. But perhaps this topic of memorials and places is something that we might devote a whole episode for at some point.

Doherty: Yeah. Part of our environmental identity work is maybe, you know, creating memorials for things that we’ve lost. But we do this in our life anyway. We know that we have to let go of certain things at certain times. So ultimately, listeners, we all have to follow our hearts here. So our minds have a sense of what is and isn’t. And what should be. But when we get into a place, there’s beauty. There’s process. There’s life of all different levels. And so if we can kind of approach a place with fresh eyes. Particularly the eyes of a child. You know, as an adult we can tap into different ways of thinking about things. But it is a process. And I don’t want to make it seem easy. Because if you’re just in the first emotional stages of this. This rite of passage. It’s quite daunting. But in the rite of passage. The classic model. We have to go on this quest. We find some friends and some helpers. We find some people that can teach us. And then we get some insights. And so that’s where we’re at with this. We’re getting insights. 

And, you know, our podcast is part of our own rite of passage. We go out into these difficult topics and try to bring something back to the world to talk about. But we’re all doing this together. So we’ll keep talking about this. But just know that you’re not alone if you feel a barrier to going out into nature. And it’s helpful to find other people that can understand this without either getting too caught in the doom. You have to rightsize it. Find people that are resonating in the emotions that you think are growthful and helpful for you. There’s a lot of detours where people get stuck in loss. Get stuck in anger. Get stuck on disorganization. Get stuck on numbing themselves. But we want to just feel a sense of the current. Keep going on the current of life. 

Pihkala: Yeah definitely so. And we have wrap things up quite soon for this episode. But I want to finish from my part with a lived example of a Finnish young woman who joined a facilitated discussion group on eco-anxiety. And she was telling us that often when she goes to local woods, that makes her cry because it reminds her of all the ecological destruction. But still she said: “I go there every night because at the end, it still makes me feel better.” And it brings all these good things. And reminds of care and love and so on. So I think that was a very moving example of somebody who was able to pass the threshold even though it was continually painful for her also. But in the end, it was still worth it. And the energy levels were higher because she did it. So good luck all you fellow travelers over there. 

Doherty: Yes. Don’t turn your gaze away, but be compassionate to these wounded places that you’re discovering. Be compassionate to them because the wounds in the place remind us of our own wounds. So, giving thanks. Giving thanks for what we have. Thanks for this opportunity. Panu, I’m always thankful for our discussions.

Pihkala: Likewise. 

Doherty: And I’m thankful that we have all these other people that really do understand what we’re doing. And that we can look to. And that we can learn from. You all take care and we’ll talk to you again soon. 

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com. 

image credit |Thought Catalog

Thomas and Panu were joined by long-time writing teacher and former Oregon Poet Laureate Kim Stafford for an uplifting dialogue about creativity and finding daily inspiration in our relationship with nature. Kim shared poems, quotes and lessons drawn from his teaching and daily writing practice. Echoing British landscape writer Robert McFarlane, Kim observed: “A landscape that has not been evocatively described becomes easy to destroy.” As the days grow shorter in the Northern Hemisphere, join us for an energizing conversation that ranged across cultures from the epic poetry of Finland to Native American wisdom. 

Links

Selections from Kim Stafford: 

• A Video Poem Prompt

• Citizen Poems

• The Wandering Life of a Poem

• Nest Filled:  A poem about our work for earth

• Kim Stafford Home Page

• On Instagram

• The word-hoard: Robert Macfarlane on rewilding our language of landscape

• Rachel Carson: Help your child to wonder (the original version of The Sense of wonder), 1956

• An excerpt of Kalevala, the Finnish epic poem, in both Finnish and English; see here for a full e-book in English
  

Transcript

Transcript edited for clarity and brevity. 

Thomas Doherty: Please support the Climate Change and Happiness Podcast. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.

[music: “CC&H theme music”]

Introduction voice: Welcome to Climate Change and Happiness, an international podcast that explores the personal side of climate change. Your feelings, what the crisis means to you, and how to cope and thrive. And now, your hosts, Thomas Doherty and Panu Pihkala.

Thomas Doherty: Hello! I am Thomas Doherty.

Panu Pihkala: And I am Panu Pihkala.

Doherty: And welcome to Climate Change and Happiness. Our podcast. The show for people around the world who are thinking and feeling deeply about the personal side of climate change. Particularly in this podcast we talk about people’s emotions and feelings. Their private life. And we are very honored to have a guest today. 

Kim Stafford: Hello, I’m Kim Stafford. I’m glad to be with the two of you and everyone. 

Doherty: And Kim is an old and treasured colleague of mine. I don’t get to see Kim very often these days. But as we were talking earlier before the episode, Kim was one of my allies and support in some of my academic adventures. Particularly creating an ecopsychology certificate program for counselors. Which I did about a decade ago. And that was a really tough sell at the time in academia. Things have changed now, and people are scrambling to do this kind of work.  We were a bit ahead of the curve. And so Kim was always there. Kim being the resident poet and writer in my program at Lewis and Clark. And so we’ll talk about Kim’s work and his work as a poet. And Oregon Poet Laureate. We’re going to share some memories. And also some poems. Panu, do you want to get us started?

Pihkala: Gladly. And warmly welcome, Kim. It’s a great pleasure to meet you. And in this podcast we’ve often talked about the arts in various ways. Sometimes devoting entire episodes for it. Music, for example. But we haven't really talked much about poetry. So that’s a very exciting thing to do. And I was wondering, actually, to get us started, would there be, Kim, some poem that would especially resonate with you today that you’d like to share with us?

Stafford: Yeah, thank you Panu. I’m going to read a poem called Advice From a Raindrop. And first say that one thing that works for me in writing is to speak in the voice of a creature. You know, to speak in the first person as a tree. As a wave. As a river. Is one way to immerse myself in the healing properties of the natural world. So this is Advice From a Raindrop: 

You think you’re too small
to make a difference? Tell me
about it. You think you’re
helpless, at the mercy of forces
beyond your control? Been there.

Think you’re doomed to disappear,
just one small voice among millions?
That’s no weakness, trust me. That’s
your wild card, your trick, your
implement. They won’t see you coming

until you’re there, in their faces, shining,
festive, expendable, eternal. Sure you’re
small, just one small part of a storm that
changes everything. That’s how you win, 
my friend, again and again and again.

Doherty: Thanks Kim. That was really nice on a rainy day here in Portland. It makes me think differently of the raindrops because they are inexorable right now here. 

Pihkala: Yes. Thanks a lot, Kim, for selecting that. And that immediately resonates with many things in my mind. Of course the actual rain. But when coming to the topic we often discuss here, it is the emotional side of the ecological crisis and climate crisis. One particularly common feeling that people have orients around helplessness. And sometimes feeling inadequate. So for me, for example, this poem speaks quite directly to that feeling that I’ve noticed that many people have.

Stafford: Yeah. To not be alone. I mean that’s one of the big remedies for helplessness in my life. You know, even if I feel that my views about how human work should be connected. If I feel alone as a human, I’m accompanied by the rain. By the singing birds. By the trees who didn't get the memo that they should be discouraged. They just keep reaching for the sky. 

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah, we talk about environmental identity. Our identity in relation to nature. You know, nature can be part of our identity, but what you’re talking about is our ecological self. You know, that sense that we are nature. And so we are really, you know, part of the weather. Part of the raindrops. Which is really hard in the climate change era because it’s threatening. And people are feeling even more, unfortunately, separate from nature because of this anxiety. And eco-anxiety stuff that’s going around. 

Stafford: Well, maybe I still have a childish sense of the world. I remember in school when [the] history teacher started into a lecture by saying, “you know for primitive people, the wind was a being. And stones were beings. And rivers were beings. But now we know. And so on and so on.” And I thought, “Wait a minute. No. That’s right! That’s the way it is. The weather is, you know, my companion. The weather’s moods are my moods. There’s this permeable non-boundary between what’s inside me and what’s all around me.”

Pihkala: Yeah. That’s very profoundly put I think. And resonates with many things which are growing now in popularity like this post-humanistic discourse where people are trying to think more critically about these boundaries. And [it] also reminds me of Per Espen Stoknes. A Norwegian psychologist and author who did a book about [the] psychology of climate change. [What We Think About When We Try Not To Think About Global Warming: Toward a New Psychology of Climate Action, 2015]. But then he has a final chapter on air. Loving the air. And forming a very intimate relationship with air and wind. Partly drawing from the Sami people and a famous Sami poet. 

Stafford: Ah yeah. Yeah we had a class here in Oregon taught by a native woman CMarie Fuhrman. And she told the students, you know, when they were saying how sad they were about human treatment of the earth and so on. She said well, you know there’s one thing you need to remember. The earth loves you. The earth is glad you’re here. The earth is glad you’re noticing things. You are being loved. You are being cherished. And suddenly the responsibility for the relationship was not on the shoulders of the misbehaving human. You know, we’re children in this great motherland. Feel yourself being cherished.

Doherty: Yes. And that brings up, I think Kim, what I know you for is your presence in, you know, when we work together. And in the workshops that you do. And I’ve always thought your style of teaching poetry and doing workshops was always very therapeutic. Like it always seemed. It wasn't therapy directly, but it was personal and very therapeutic. I remember, I mean, some of your insights. A saying that I often quote of yours when I’m working with people. That I remember from the old days. Just like your dad William Stafford who is known for aphorisms, you’re known for your aphorisms also. And one that you would say was “We are ready for when the barriers fall.” It’s a statement of yours.

Stafford: Yeah. That’s actually from Emily Carr. A Canadian writer who said that creativity does not consist of overcoming barriers, but of being available when the barriers lift. You know, so Hamlet’s readiness is all to be ready. Not to be discouraged that all is lost, but to be perennially like a child. Curious about what’s next. What could happen. What could open. 

Doherty: So that’s great. That’s neat. Because that’s what happens with these quotes. You know, I think it’s your quote. And of course it’s from Emily Carr.

Stafford: Who knows who she got it from, Thomas.

Doherty: Yeah, exactly. But I always read that in terms of movements. And being a change agent. That sometimes we just need to be ready for when the barriers fall. Socially. Structurally. To take action. And so we’re biding our time. You know, we’re staying with our values. But of course, there’s also the creative side. We’re ready for when the insight and the muse. The insight. The ability to express ourselves happens. But anyway, there’s a holding. There’s a social holding and I think people come away with maybe we can talk about just the importance of the expression of any kind. And how poetry is helpful.

Stafford: Yeah. You know as we’re talking I’m realizing I have an adventure every morning. And that is when I start sitting at my desk. It’s dark. It’s raining outside this morning. And I’m looking at this blank piece of paper. And I’m realizing there’s something wonderful about not knowing. You know, not knowing that terrible things are happening. Not knowing that far away people are suffering. You know, that’s all in the background, but before me is this open space. And when I start putting words down, if it’s not too big a claim, it’s a kind of miracle. You know, there was nothing there and now there’s something. It’s like a little plant starting to grow. Something is growing before my eyes. And so to me that is my daily therapeutic opportunity to go from worry to nothing to something. 

Doherty: Mhmm. 

Pihkala: Has this always been with you? Did you start doing this already as a child or a young person or how did you come to it? 

Stafford: I think, Panu, it really started by going into the woods. You know, when I was a little kid there was a forest. There was a canyon. There were a bunch of thickets. A creek. A tree you could climb. A hollow log you could wriggle through. And that sense of, you know, what’s there? What am I going to find today? And I would come home and my grandmother would say, Kimmy what did you find today? You know, I think that’s probably the thing to say to a child. What are you thinking? What did you see? And that my grandmother’s curiosity really was the foundation of what I bring to the page. What have I found? You know, what am I finding?

Pihkala: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. And I very much personally resonate with this sense of adventure as something very key to life. And sort of keeping the child in us alive. Strongly reminded of Rachel Carson who I have very high appreciation for. And many people know her for the Silent Spring, but there’s the wonderful trilogy of books about the sea which are filled with both wonder and scientific analysis. And then there’s the small book about cultivating a sense of wonder, also with children. 

Stafford: And think, Panu, she was dying of cancer. And she wrote this beautiful book for children. A Sense of Wonder. I think that’s the elixir. I don’t know if it will save us, but will it save us today? You know, it will save our readiness to try. To keep trying. To keep reaching. To keep being curious.  A sense of wonder. 

Doherty: So that speaks to this idea. We often talk about what people’s eco emotions are. And so I think Kim you’re talking about that. What else comes up for you when you think about your eco feelings or eco emotions?

Stafford: Yeah. Well, you know, every morning the birds. I wrote this poem recently about the one bird that, you know, cries out first. At four in the morning. At three in the morning. And starts singing. And pretty soon dawn comes. And I imagine that little bird saying “look what I made happen. Again. I brought the light.” I think I will make something. To put something forth. To reach out to a friend. To write a letter. To have a conversation. To take a walk with someone. To learn something new. You know, that little cry of the spirit locally may not seem like much, but it’s what’s been keeping the earth going for billions of years. What’s that next thing? You know, what little thing can I do that’s part of something much bigger. But it’s not nothing. 

Pihkala: Would you happen to have that poem at hand? Or some other poem that you would like to share in relation to these things?

Stafford: Yeah. Well I have a funny little poem here called Foolish Young Flowering Plum. You know, there’s a certain time in the early, very early spring when the wild plum trees are the first to, you know, get ahead of the game and flaunt their colors. So I was walking along. It was just starting to get light in the morning. Late winter really. Foolish Young Flowering Plum.

It’s winter — dark days, still too cold
for bird or blossom — dull sky,
and all our hearts in shadow.
But there — at a ragged cleft
darkened by cedars of gloom
a flash of light cries out —
the incandescent wisp of wild
plum — far too early to be
so happy, so naive, a child
refusing to obey the rules of grief.

[from Singer Come from Afar, Red Hen Press, 2021]

Doherty: Like one of my sayings , our feelings are wild so we have to just, you know, observe them. Just like we would be out in nature. And if you make a lot of noise and blunder around, you’re going to scare everything away. And so, but there’s that wildness even when we’re down or feeling depressed. Like we’ll see something. Something will happen. It’s that attentiveness to the flux of emotions. That’s really helpful.

Stafford: Yeah. I have a spectacular example of this. You know, my brother took his life when he was forty. And our family went into the darkest time. And I was asking my father about this. He was far away when it happened. He had to fly home. And he was telling me about it. He said “well I couldn't sleep, of course. And I got up early. And I got to the airport. And we were flying west. And as we came down into Denver, I looked up in the sky and there’s a kind of a buckskin light over Colorado. I’ve seen it before.” And I said “Daddy, that’s the greatest gift you’ve given me. That no matter how dark things are, you see something and it lifts you. You see something new and it lifts you”. And I think that’s really our opportunity with the natural world to be lifted.  By things we haven't ruined yet. 

Pihkala: Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. And sorry to hear about that loss. And we briefly talked with Thomas in one of the episodes about the work of Bill Plotkin. Who is one of these eco psychology people who tries to serve the world by organizing people's chances to go into more natural surroundings. And try to be open and receptive to whatever grabs one’s attention. 

Stafford: Well Thomas when we were at the grad school together, you know, the way I teach writing is I tell my students this is your hippy dippy fuzzy wuzzy touchy feely class. You know, where we’re trying to listen to our hearts. And write what we feel and so on. And one of my very serious colleagues at the graduate school, you know, with a dismissive wave of her hand said you know, the way you teach writing, Kim, that’s just therapy. And I didn’t say it but through my mind went the sentence, my brother died because he didn’t get that. Don’t just say therapy to me. Happiness is very, very practical. A sense of wellbeing is profoundly practical.

Doherty: Yeah. Yeah so that speaks to our kind of inner policing of ourselves. Which is something to be aware of. You know, particularly during this crisis of politics and climate. You know, we can get kind of harsh with others. But then with ourselves too. Even therapeutic people surprisingly. I remember one of my colleagues dismissing me because I was teaching a wilderness therapy class where we were going out camping in nature. And taking the counselors out on river rafting trips to test themselves. And he just [said] they’re just going river rafting. You know, as if that was irrelevant. 

Stafford: And we’re in a classroom using big words.

Doherty: Yes exactly. As if that was irrelevant to life. And it really strikes what’s the danger of, you know, the ivory tower. And then we have the green tower. Which is a kind of purity. I’m more eco-friendly. I have to be very eco-friendly. And all this sort of stuff and so. And I know that infiltrates writing and literature just as well, I know. You seem to be able to kind of avoid that kind of piousness.

Stafford: Well, you know, they say that with poetry if you do it long enough you can work your way into two figures.

Doherty:  Yeah. Yeah exactly. Yeah. 

Pihkala: What about Kim, things written by other people? We touched on Rachel Carson, but speaking of this general topic of ecological issues. Climate issues. Are there some writers whose poems or texts have moved you?

Stafford: I think one of the people for me is Robert McFarlane. In the UK. He has this one sentence that I think is absolutely foundational to what we’re living now. A landscape that has not been evocatively described, becomes easier to destroy. A landscape that has not been evocatively described, becomes easier to destroy. So the work of the writer, in the era of climate change is to see things. To help people see things. To help people hear the amazing voices of the earth. And so that we can’t just say well let’s pave it. Let’s develop it. You know, let’s make it more human. Let’s string some wires, you know. No, it’s beautiful. That place is beautiful. Let’s get our power from apprehending the beauty of what’s around us. So, again, beauty is very practical. 

Doherty: Yeah. Panu, what are you thinking about from the Finnish side? I know there’s a strong tradition of this. We were joking about Kim’s early youthful travels in Scandinavia. And the sense of the culture there. And the acceptance. And the freedom to roam. And all kinds of things that are part of that culture. But what’s coming up for you on the Finnish side even in terms of literature or some of your work over there?

Pihkala: Yeah. Just during the last 20 years I’ve been reading a triology, written in the 1950s and 60s by this Finnish natural scientist called Reino Kalliola. He was one of the first state persons for environmental protection in his time. But he was also a humanist and a lover of arts. So he was doing exactly the thing that Kim mentioned here. So he was doing sort of natural science about Finland, but he was doing it so eloquently. And also drawing from classic Finnish literature. And they did prints of his books with printed paintings by the Finnish artists also. [e.g. Suomen luonto vuodenaikojen vaihtelussa, 1959]. So it was really a combination of both the natural science and the lyrical depiction. And that was really foundational for the Finnish environmentalism. So that very strongly resonates with me.

Stafford: Well Panu, I’m going to reveal my ignorance, but I can’t remember the name of the person who went all over what is now Finland to create the Kalevala. And, you know, I heard many local stories in many places and put them into one big song that, from my reading, really formed the Finnish nation. I feel like maybe our work now is to gather songs in a kind of overwhelming wave to wake up the human project. You know, a sense that we’re all in this together and we can all make a difference. And let’s sing our kinship into a new way to do things. 

Pihkala: That’s very beautifully put. And Kalevala. The national epic collection of the …. Very old rhythmic poems.  Elias Lönnrot is probably the one that you are after here. And it’s a tricky name for everybody outside of Finland. They were still alive, some of these old poem singers. And so that’s very foundational for us Finns. And did have an influence on J.R.R Tolkien’s mythology, for example. And also for the music of Sibelius. So it’s been contributing in different art forms also outside Finland. And it has a special thing around nature, of course, going around. 

And poetry is still going strong in Finland. Of course the number of sales are not as high as poets would like them to be. Or lovers of poetry. And many Finnish poets have been moving onto describing various dimensions of the ecological crisis, also. Sometimes trying to explore the beauty of these strange combinations of built environment and natural environment. And that’s very difficult stuff to translate into English because of the peculiarity of the Finnish language. But some sort of collective singing or poem making is going on around here. But that’s a very interesting thought about comparing Kalevala to the themes of today.

Stafford: Well I have a little story for you. I was at a Finnish immigrant community in the Northwest here. Naselle. And the self appointed mayor was telling jokes in Finnish. And hundreds of people were cracking up. So I know I’m onto something here. And then he translated one of the stories. He said, you know I was talking to my neighbor Arnie and I said Arnie, home come you’re so talented? You’re a musician. You’re a fisherman. You’re a woodworker. You do some writing. How do you do all those things? And Arnie said well, you know, I’m Finnish. A Finn does what he wants to do. Other people just do what they know how to do. And I think there’s a secret there. We each need to do what we want to do. And not let people tell us, no you’re not good enough to do that. We just need to say. I’m going to save the earth, personally, but not alone. And here we go. And we’ll do what we can. 

Doherty: Yeah. That’s a good segue, Kim. I’m channeling the listeners who are out there and I think they’re feeling uplifted by the energy in these kinds of conversations when we bring in arts and poetry is really uplifting. Because it’s not denying the world, but it’s just looking at the world from a certain angle of sight. You know, that reveals all this beauty and surprise. 

But I know, Kim, you do a lot of teaching of writing to people. Young people, for example. People that don’t see themselves as literary. For the listener that’s listening and saying, okay this is all well and good, but I’ve never written a poem. And I don’t have all this knowledge and these stories. What are some of your kind of takeaway tools and advice for small writing practices? Because I know that’s a part of your teaching. 

Stafford: Sure. Yeah. Well I learned a great secret from my predecessor. Who was the poet laureate in Oregon before. Elizabeth Woody. Who is [a] Wasco-Navajo native woman. And she said at one point, you know, the more I do poetry, the less it’s about what the poem is and more about who the poem serves. And that became my mission as poet laureate. And as a poet. And as a citizen. Who the poem serves. 

So I started inviting people. And maybe I can invite our listeners to do some optional homework. Think of someone in your life who needs a poem. And then write one for that person. Write a poem for someone. And I realized that’s sort of what I do. You know, I go to a place. I write a poem for the place. Not about the place. For the place. I’m in a community. You know, I went to visit some inmates in prison. I wrote a poem for them. I worked with some immigrants. I wrote a poem for them. And here’s an example of a little poem written by a child. I was in a fourth grade classroom. And I said to the students, think of someone in your life who needs a poem. And make one for them. And this little guy turned in a poem. It goes like this. It’s called Max. Which is the name of his friend. 

There are 200 countries. 
There are 50 states. 
There are 7 oceans to cross.
There are 7 continents. 
There are billions of stars. 
And I met you. 

It’s so little. It’s so beautiful. It’s so friendly. You know, so it’s not about skill, it’s about curiosity and courage to say what’s in your heart. 

Doherty: Yes. Yeah, let’s let that hang in the air for a moment here. And for the listeners as well. You know, it’s a long slog. And we do need these kinds of slivers of light. It reminds me of the saying that was in the movie The Postman years ago. “Poems don’t belong to the people who wrote them, they belong to people who need them.” [“Poetry doesn't belong to those who write it; it belongs to those who need it.”] 

Stafford: Yes. 

Doherty: Yes. It was something along those lines. So I know we all think about what we need. We’re toward the end of our time. Kim, would you like to give the listeners another poem today?

Stafford: Yeah. This is sort of my theme song. One way to write a poem is to go to rhymezone.com. And just take a salt shaker and sprinkle rhymes through a poem and see what happens. So this is called I Am the Seed. I’m circling back to, you know, I am speaking in the voice of the raindrop. I am speaking in the voice of the seed. I Am the Seed. 

Every chance I get, any place I fit,
in a cleft of grit, in ravine or pit 
by ancient wit my husk I split—
            I am the seed. 

I fell to the ground without a sound,
by rainfall drowned, by sunlight found,
by wonder crowned, by luck profound—
            I am the seed.

After fiery thief, after bout of grief,
though life is brief I sprout relief, 
with tiny leaf, beyond belief—
            I am the seed. 

Up I rise to seek the prize
from all that dies, by bold surprise,
before your eyes, small and wise—
            I am the seed.

I am the seed, small as a bead.
Tell me your need. Your hunger I’ll feed—
any trouble you’re in, I will begin,
for I am the seed!

Doherty: Very nice.

Pihkala: Thank you. Thank you for sharing. 

Doherty: Panu, what are you sitting with here? Or Kim, what are you sitting with here? We wrap up here in this nice dialogue.

Stafford: I’m sitting here. I get to be with two people far away. And in just a few moments we got into deep, important things. And that’s a perennial opportunity for human beings. No matter what is against us. Around us. Ahead of us. We can sit down together and share a cup of tea and our thoughts. And we will be stronger. 

Doherty: Yeah. I’m spontaneously making up a new rule for myself about public speaking. It's to get a poem in there as early as possible. It’s my new rule that I’m going to use because—

Stafford: Yeah. The secret way to do it is don’t say here’s a poem, just start saying it. 

Doherty: Yes. Yeah. Because it creates this container, you know. That’s different. Immediately. 

Stafford: I think poetry is human birdsong.

Doherty: Yeah. That’s great. That’s another one I’m going to put in my list there, Kim. What are you thinking about, Panu?

Pihkala: Well, I’m thinking about exactly the same thing that Kim described here. That it’s been a very good moment of spending time with quite deep issues in life. And with both shades of sadness and lots of shade of joy and wonder. So I’m very grateful for this opportunity. And I hope that you listeners can continue having these kinds of moments. But warm thanks, Kim, for joining us. It’s been truly a pleasure. 

Stafford: Thank you both so much.

Doherty: Yeah. And so. Yeah, Kim, you’re starting your day here. What does your day hold for you today?

Stafford: Oh I’m doing an old man thing. I’m organizing my archive. I’ve been a hoarder of paper. There are thousands of pages. I’m trying to organize. 

Doherty: Wow.

Stafford: Clean out my house. Ship it all off to the library so when I’m gone, people can go in—like going into a forest—and find strange and magical things.

Doherty: So you’re harvesting, right? That’s that way I think about that. You’ve got the beauty of harvesting. You don’t have to, you know, you’re not being the seed at this particular moment. You’re being the harvest. 

Stafford: Yeah, although I start the day with writing a poem. And then spend the rest of the day organizing all the poems I’ve written.

Doherty: That’s great. I think we could all stand to harvest things. I know the book project I’m working on. I’m trying to think of it as a harvest of insights and things. And that’s something I’ll be working on today as well as seeing some therapy clients. And also doing my training with therapists who are trying to help in the climate crisis. So I’ll be doing that kind of stuff today. Panu, how’s your evening for you?

Pihkala: Well, you know, after daylight savings time and now the evenings are even darker and mornings have more light. But the same as usual so the boys are soon going to come home. So there’s some family time to be had.

Doherty: Well, it is a dark time. Just in the seasons here. In the Northern Hemisphere, anyway. And so this has been a nice kind of bright candle light or sunlight. Whatever image you want to use for a discussion for us at this time of the year. So I wish you all well and we’re going to put a bunch of links in our show notes of poems and all the little beautiful insights that came up today. And to the listeners and you both, be well and take care. 

Stafford: Thank you. 

Pihkala: Take care. 

Doherty: The Climate Change and Happiness Podcast is a self-funded, volunteer effort. Please support us so we can keep bringing you messages of coping and thriving. See the donate page at climatechangeandhappiness.com.