In this episode of the Confidence in Trading podcast "Dopamine and Day Trading - The Science Behind The Rush", host Agnieszka Wood explores the role of dopamine, the brain's "desire" chemical and the effects that it has on decision-making  and risk-taking. Learn about the two characters of dopamine and the ways it can help and sabotage your trading efforts. Discover how to use its power to your advantage in the pursuit of financial gains in trading. 

About Agnieszka Wood

Founder and CEO of Ahead Coach, Trading Mindset Coach

Agnieszka Wood, is a passionate and accomplished day trader with over a decade of hands-on experience in the financial markets. Coming originally from Poland but having spent most of her life abroad, notably in the Netherlands and the United States, Agnieszka brings a diverse perspective to her work. Her journey is marked by conquering challenges, a deep passion for self-development, a commitment to unlocking her full potential, and a relentless pursuit of excellence.

Since 2019, Agnieszka has taken on the role of Founder and CEO of Ahead Coach, a coaching platform where she conducts her transformative work as a Trading Mindset Coach. Through Ahead Coach, she offers coaching programs for traders that draw on her extensive 20+ year background in Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP), life coaching and her own experience in trading. Her holistic approach is designed to empower individuals not only in their trading endeavors but also in all aspects of life.

Agnieszka's influence extends beyond her coaching practice. She is a respected speaker at various trading events, where she shares her insights and knowledge with fellow traders and enthusiasts. In the trading education industry, she is known for her expertise in mindset coaching, helping traders overcome psychological barriers and build consistency.

Passionate about guiding individuals towards tangible results, Agnieszka thrives on taking on new initiatives and projects that promote personal growth. Her multifaceted expertise, unwavering dedication, and holistic approach make her a trusted coach for those seeking transformation and success.

—

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

—

Transcript: 

[00:00:08.490]

Welcome to a new episode of the Confidence in Trading podcast. I am your host, Agnieszka Wood. I am so happy that you are here because today's topic could provide many of you with a lot of answers that you might have been searching for for a long time. Welcome to episode number 16, Dopamine and Day Trading - the Science Behind the Rush. Last week I mentioned how easily I can get bored and distracted and how I am constantly looking for new experiences.

[00:00:41.800]

I just love the feeling of starting something new. The excitement gives me a lot of energy and a huge confidence boost at times as well. Already as a child, I could not stick to just one hobby and after a month or two of, let's say, collecting postcards, I would be onto a new endeavor. I had a lot of hobbies at the same time, but I would end them one after the other very fast. My mom would say sometimes that I burned through hobbies, like through stack of hay, and that did not change.

[00:01:16.890]

Growing up, I was always getting very excited to start up a new initiative, whether that was a new job, starting a new business, or even a new relationship. And sometimes that was based on a very impulsive decision, getting very easily distracted and being able to get myself very enthusiastic about something to the point that it had to happen right now. And I am very, very good at talking myself into things, especially if I really feel excited about them. With time I have learned to get that under control and also talk myself out of things, especially those that are not in my best interest. But I can tell you that my head still keeps trying and if I don't pay enough attention, mindset coach or not, I will sometimes fall for it.

[00:02:20.350]

That's where knowing yourself becomes so important, especially if you are serious about achieving your goals in life. From my own trading experience and my work as a trading Mindset Coach, I know that this characteristic is quite common among traders and maybe even you recognize it yourself. If you have been following me for a while, you know that I talk a lot about beliefs and how they orchestrate everything we do. And if you want to change your behavior, that especially behavior that does not serve you, that you need to look at your beliefs. And if you want to change a behavior, especially behavior that does not serve you, you need to look at your beliefs so you can replace the limiting ones, the ones that are not helping you get what you want with empowering beliefs.

[00:03:24.210]

Beliefs are basically thoughts that we kept thinking until they became so strong that we started to identify ourselves with it and consider them the truth. And because of that, we never think to question them anymore. And so yes, on a mental level, we are being sabotaged by our own beliefs because your life changes. And sometimes the belief that you have been carrying with you for a long time through your life, they simply are not valid anymore. I would say not only not valid, a lot of times they are simply not functional and stand you in your way.

[00:04:13.010]

So that's one dimension that anyone who has some sort of dream and especially when you are working hard to make it happen and you don't move forward, that's the one dimension that you need to look at, especially if you want to book some progress, right? So beliefs, that's on a mental level, that's what stands a lot of people in a way to their goals and in a way to even, sometimes define their goals or even having a dream. Because limiting beliefs are not only preventing you from achieving your dreams for taking the necessary steps, many times they are actually preventing you from dreaming, from believing what is possible for you and from believing what you deserve and what you are worth. [00:05:13.190] So that's on a mental level, and if that's not enough to deal with, we also have a physical level that can work for us or against us. And yes, on a physical level, the first thing that comes to mind when achieving goals for everyone is going to the gym, having a workout routine, having a good diet, taking care of yourself.

[00:05:40.580]

And that's all very important. But what I am particularly interested in is what is happening behind the scenes. So not what's exactly obvious to the eye. Just like your beliefs are part of your subconscious programming. There is this one chemical in particular that I want to talk about today.

[00:06:04.950]

That chemical that has an incredibly big role in achieving success as a trader, dopamine. Dopamine is a brain chemical that was discovered in 1957 and was first seen as a way for the body to produce a chemical called norepinephrine, which is what adrenaline is called when it is found in the brain. Some scientists name Dopamine the pleasure molecule. But further research showed that Dopamine is not just about pleasure. The dopamine activity was not just a marker of pleasure, but it is a reaction to the unexpected, to possibility and anticipation.

[00:06:56.310]

This might be a hint for you why I am talking about this chemical and why is it such an important topic for traders. As human beings, we get a Dopamine rush from promising surprises. But when these things become regular events in our life and the newness fades, the Dopamine rush dissipates. Just think about relationships and the honeymoon phase. Sounds familiar, right?

[00:07:25.550]

Our brain is programmed to crave the unexpected. So logically we look to the future to deliver it to us because that's where every exciting possibility begins in the future. But as soon as the new becomes the usual, we turn our head and attention to the new opportunity. Back to the future. Just think about how often traders switch from strategy to strategy.

[00:07:56.510]

Especially when you don't get the results you want and you see maybe another trader on Twitter making money with a different strategy. Just be honest, doesn't a thought pops up in your head maybe I should try to trade what he is trading. It looks like he's making money. Maybe this is much better, maybe I should start doing that. Dopamine is great at is idealizing the unknown.

[00:08:25.570]

The problem is that the unknown can only be in the future. And when it actually becomes your reality and you finally get the things you want it's not as good as expected. The thrill of anticipation is gone and your excitement turns into disappointment. And because that does not feel very nice you are onto a new thing again and it can be very very addictive. So remember, Dopamine is the anticipation molecule and the only thing that matters to dopamine is to get more.

[00:09:10.050]

Having things totally uninteresting what truly matters is getting things. So when you are thinking about things you don't have yet, things that you can only desire, like the sports car you're going to drive when you finally become successful in trading that's when dopamine has more control than any other chemical in your brain. Think about it this way dopamine turns on the imagination producing visions of a rosy future. Because when we imagine things we want, we usually don't settle for mediocre. We tend to think about the best of the possible worlds and that makes the future more attractive.

[00:10:01.090]

But what you have to realize is that the future isn't real and it exists only in your mind. On the other hand, the present is real, it's experienced, not imagined the present moment. And that requires a different set of chemicals in your brain such as serotonin, oxytocin, endorphins they are called the here and now neurotransmitters as opposed to the pleasure of anticipations of dopamine. These chemicals give us pleasure from sensation and emotion. So if the future is wanting, the present is liking.

[00:10:51.330]

The feeling of wanting and feeling of liking are produced by two completely different systems in the brain. And for some people the switch from excitement about what you want to enjoyment of what you have can be very challenging. And we often don't like the things we have even though that's what we wanted. Take for example a relationship. Many people try to change their partner and when they finally succeed they don't like the way the partner is now.

[00:11:27.850]

Or in trading you really want your trade to go to your target price. Sometimes you pray if it only gets there but then when it gets there suddenly it's not good enough. And now you want it to go higher. Now you're not taking the profit, now you're greedy, now you want more. How many times did that mess up your good trade or turn a winner into a loser?

[00:11:52.470]

I mentioned before that the feeling of desire can be addictive and it happens when the dopamine desire circuits get overstimulated. Basically, addiction arises from the chemical cultivation of desire. And what I'm going to tell you next, hopefully will help you to find a little bit more compassion for yourself. Such addiction is a dopaminergic compulsion and it's not a sign of a weak character or a lack of willpower. So stop beating yourself up.

[00:12:32.690]

There is a chemical in your brain you're fighting against. The feeling of wanting becomes sometimes so overwhelming and all you want is to stop the unpleasant feeling of craving. That's what addiction is, regardless whether the wanted object is anything you really care for, whether it is good for you or might hurt you, it makes you behave like a man who carries around the rock all day because it feels so good when he puts it down. You might now start seeing some parallels of how you react in certain situations in your trading. In a trading environment, it is very easy to get overstimulated.

[00:13:16.570]

And dopamine is what fuels many traders uncontrolled behavior and losses. So if you think about your trading and look back at your day, you can probably pinpoint when you are operating from dopamine and when you are operating from here and now space. I talk a lot in my coaching about being in the moment and practicing staying in the present, because that's where dopamine has less effect on you and less control. So you can view dopamine as a trader's friend, but also as an enemy. So as a friend, it motivates you to come back every day and to seek profits and stay engaged in the markets.

[00:14:10.010]

But from the enemy perspective, yes, dopamine is responsible for your impulsive decisions and excessive risk taking. Think about it this way. The dopamine makes the work possible at all. Like if you have no dopamine, there is no effort. And you would just not be willing to work hard and come back every day and put your efforts into preparing, trading plan and spending hours in front of your screens flicking through charts.

[00:14:47.590]

The ability to put forth effort is dopaminergic and we need that. Dopamine is also giving you a confidence boost because we humans need to believe that we can actually succeed before we are able to succeed. Another thing that dopamine is serving as is a motivator, driving you to stay engaged in the markets. Motivation is very important for your progress. The anticipation of profits also help you to stay focused on your goals.

[00:15:27.610]

It gives you sort of positive reinforcement. Dopamine can also help traders cope with losses and provide them with a sense of optimism because it gives you this excitement about what you can achieve. It encourages you to persevere and adapt if you have taken some losses lately. But there is this other side of the coin where the dopamine is not so good for traders and it's causing impulsive behavior. You start showing impulsive behavior when you place too much value on immediate pleasure and not enough on long term consequences.

[00:16:14.570]

You probably have heard many traders talking about you have to focus on your process, you have to focus on the long term goals because otherwise you will be just chasing money. Desired dopamine overpowers the more rational parts of your brain. So we make choices that we know are not in our best interest, but then we feel powerless to resist. Speaking of the dopamine rush, the dopamine rush that you get from quick profits or unexpected profits that can lead to impulsive trading decisions. So you might start chasing trends or just completely throw your plan out the window and as a result lose a lot of money.

[00:17:10.570]

While dopamine can give you confidence, it can also give you overconfidence. Because if you have experienced recent successes, now you start to underestimate risk and you take larger positions than you should and you are risking substantial losses. Dopamine can also amplify the fear of losses and making traders reluctant to cut their losses. So you start holding your positions for longer than you should, hoping that it will turn around, leading to further losses. You maybe recall the situation if that happened ever to you, maybe it never happened to you.

[00:17:56.200]

I know it did happen to me and I would tell myself the story that it's going to come back. And not only that, the dopamine really helped me to make the story that I will even make a profit. Sometimes I would tell myself, you know what, if I add an average down, then when it turns around, I will make more money than I was originally intending. It basically makes you trade emotionally. You get the rush from quick profits, make impulsive trading decisions, and just completely lose track of any analysis and just click the buttons.

[00:18:39.190]

Now the emotional highs and lows that are associated with dopamine can totally cloud your judgment. And if you trade emotionally, you know what happens. Your performance is simply inconsistent. And if you have inconsistent performance, how can you expect consistent results, right? So begin with building awareness around your dopamine driven behavior.

[00:19:10.210]

Look at the situations that bring you in trouble and see if this was caused by you trying to think about a rosy future, how this trade, if you get in, is going to work out and give you big profit. Start noticing your emotional state when trading. So if you feel overly excited or anxious, that's when you can recognize that dopamine may be influencing your decisions. Take breaks. Try to regain rational perspective.

[00:19:51.010]

Just make for yourself a reminder that when you feel overconfident overexcited, just think dopamine I need to get back into the present moment, into the now. And you can do it your way. You can just close your eyes, maybe take few deep breaths, or simply take a walk. Make sure that you start writing down in your trading journal your decision. So just keep track of what made you to make a certain decision.

[00:20:24.190]

So if you have decided to get out earlier out of a trade, what made you do that? If it was getting into a trade too early, before you got your confirmation or your signal, what was your emotional state then? And start looking for patterns of impulsive and overconfident behavior that may be linked to Dopamine release. So remember this if you feel excited while you're trading, you're looking at the setup and all you can think of is potential profit. You might be now telling yourself the story that you rather talk yourself out of.

[00:21:10.700]

Notice the narrative in your head. Write it down. Make sure that you recognize are you acting out of Dopamine or are you acting out of here and now chemicals. As you see, Dopamine's role in trading is pretty complex and the Dopamine rush has both positive and negative aspects. And it is up to you whether you will make it your friend or enemy, because it depends on how you will manage and channel it.

[00:21:42.930]

Thank you for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. If you are enjoying my show and the topics I share here resonate with you, I would like to ask you to leave a review on Apple podcast and don't forget to hit that subscribe button as well so you can come back for the next episode. Your journey to becoming a confident trader is incredibly exciting and important to me and I am here to support you every step of the way. If you are interested in gathering more insights in trading psychology, be sure to visit aheadcoach.com and very soon I will be teaching Live Mindset Masterclass for Traders so you will be able to sign up for free. So connect with me on Twitter or Facebook.

[00:22:36.600]

You will find the links in the description under this episode and I really hope to seeing you there. I am Agnieszka Wood from Ahead Coach and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Bye for now.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/

In this episode of the Confidence in Trading podcast, host Agnieszka Wood explores the intricate relationship between emotions and trading decisions, shedding light on the high failure rate among traders and the unique challenges faced by male traders. She discusses how societal norms and traditional masculinity often leads to difficulty in navigating the challenges of controlling emotions in trading. 

Agnieszka offers insights into the impact of emotional suppression, coping mechanisms, and the importance of recognizing and addressing emotions for improved trading performance and emotional well-being. She highlights the need for emotional support and encourages male traders to break free from societal expectations and embrace emotional fluency for better trading outcomes.

About Agnieszka Wood

Founder and CEO of Ahead Coach, Trading Mindset Coach

Agnieszka Wood, is a passionate and accomplished day trader with over a decade of hands-on experience in the financial markets. Coming originally from Poland but having spent most of her life abroad, notably in the Netherlands and the United States, Agnieszka brings a diverse perspective to her work. Her journey is marked by conquering challenges, a deep passion for self-development, a commitment to unlocking her full potential, and a relentless pursuit of excellence.

Since 2019, Agnieszka has taken on the role of Founder and CEO of Ahead Coach, a coaching platform where she conducts her transformative work as a Trading Mindset Coach. Through Ahead Coach, she offers coaching programs for traders that draw on her extensive 20+ year background in Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP), life coaching and her own experience in trading. Her holistic approach is designed to empower individuals not only in their trading endeavors but also in all aspects of life.

Agnieszka's influence extends beyond her coaching practice. She is a respected speaker at various trading events, where she shares her insights and knowledge with fellow traders and enthusiasts. In the trading education industry, she is known for her expertise in mindset coaching, helping traders overcome psychological barriers and build consistency.

Passionate about guiding individuals towards tangible results, Agnieszka thrives on taking on new initiatives and projects that promote personal growth. Her multifaceted expertise, unwavering dedication, and holistic approach make her a trusted coach for those seeking transformation and success.

—

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

—

Transcript: 

[00:00:08] - Agnieszka

Welcome to another episode of the Confidence in Trading podcast. I am your host, Agnieszka Wood, and I am absolutely thrilled to have you with us today. Today is episode number 15, and if you have been listening to my podcast, you are probably wondering who is my next guest. So I've got a little surprise for you. After hosting 14 wonderful guests and having incredibly inspiring conversations with them, I decided to shake things up a little bit and do something different, partly because I am a trader and I got so used to getting regularly shaken up by the market that I just felt the need to change something.

[00:00:56] - Agnieszka

But also, I have a strong dopaminergic personality and I get very easily bored. So I am constantly looking for new experiences. And if you wonder what a dopaminergic personality is and how dopamine that powerful brain chemical might be affecting your trading behavior, then you absolutely must subscribe to my show. The upcoming episode is poised to blow your mind as I will be exploring the intricate relationship between dopamine and your trading decisions. And before we dive into today's discussion, I want to make sure that you are aware of a fantastic resource that I've prepared for you.

[00:01:41] - Agnieszka

If you head to confidenceintrading.com, you can access a complimentary copy of my comprehensive guide, Ten Easy Ways to Improve the Consistency in Your Trading. It's jam packed with actionable strategies and insights that can help elevate your trading game to new heights. All right, so today is just between you and me, your exclusive conversation with a Trading Mindset Coach. And in today's episode, we are going to dive headfirst into a topic that has the power to disrupt even the most level headed of individuals. Drumroll, please.

[00:02:29] - Agnieszka

Emotions. Yes, those unpredictable and often unruly forces that can send shivers down the spine of traders worldwide. In the trading realm, they are often viewed as the elusive boogeyman lurking in the shadows, ready to pounce when least expected. Emotions. Whether you are a seasoned pro or just starting on this roller coaster ride, emotions are a constant companion.

[00:03:00] - Agnieszka

And today I am going to peel back the layer that nobody looked under before. So grab your favorite cup of coffee and fasten your seatbelt, because we are shaking things up. Today, we are embarking on a journey of self discovery, empathy and growth. And I am thrilled to have you along for the ride. It's common knowledge that the failure rate among traders is critically high.

[00:03:28] - Agnieszka

To put it all into perspective, consider this according to the latest data provided by the US. Bureau of Labor Statistics, approximately 20.8% of private sector businesses in the United States falter and fade within their very first year of existence. It's a harsh environment for entrepreneurs, to say the least. Now, in trading, particularly day trading here, the stats paint an even more daunting picture. And I really hope that these numbers are not surprising to those of you who are just at the beginning of your trading career.

[00:04:07] - Agnieszka

After all, you need to know what you are getting into. So various studies and industry observations show somewhere between 80% to 90% of day traders ultimately throw in the towel within their maiden year. Five years down the line, while over 50% of businesses are still standing, only a meager 7% of day traders persevere. To put it bluntly, if you are a day trader, it can sometimes feel like participating in Hunger Games, a relentless high stakes battle where the odds are stacked against you. Interestingly, the majority of those who undertake this grueling journey are men, making up approximately 85% of all traders.

[00:05:01] - Agnieszka

Female traders tend to emerge as unsung heroes of this arena. Over time, they often outperform their male counterparts. Why? Well, it appears that part of the credit for this goes to women's remarkable ability to keep their egos in check, relegating them to the background, and allowing for a greater degree of self control in their trading decisions. Isn't it intriguing how the most tricky aspects of trading emotions and masculinity are often intertwined in a delicate dance of complexity?

[00:05:44] - Agnieszka

And today, we will be turning our focus squarely onto the 85% of traders who are men and explore the unique challenge they face and, most importantly, how they can tip the scales in their favor in this high stakes arena of trading. So let's talk about emotions. Controlling emotions in trading, particularly in day trading, stands as perhaps the single most intimidating challenge most traders encounter in their trading journey towards their success. It's a relentless battle, one that tests the strength of character of even the most seasoned traders. And as if that weren't intriguing enough, emotions also play a role in the realm of masculinity, presenting a unique challenge for many men.

[00:06:39] - Agnieszka

Do you know what the challenge is? The challenge of expressing those emotions. This leads us to a compelling question. Is it possible to effectively navigate through the turbulence of emotions if one doesn't dare to look them in the eye? Picture this.

[00:07:00] - Agnieszka

You are trying to move past something, but it's hidden in the shadows, obscured from view. It's like navigating a dimly lit room, and it's only a matter of time before you stumble over the very thing you can't see. So that makes me wonder if there is a close relationship between the challenges of controlling the emotions in trading and the challenges of emotional expression. And that's the reason why I wanted to focus today on just men traders. Because the difficulty of expressing emotions is especially true for men, it's crucial to acknowledge that when it comes to emotions, there is a universal truth that transcends gender boundaries.

[00:07:52] - Agnieszka

Emotions are an inherent part of the human experience, and every individual, regardless of gender, possesses the capacity to feel and express them. Men and women are born with remarkably similar emotional landscapes, filled with the full spectrum of feelings. Yet here lies the conundrum as boys matured into adulthood. Many societies have long adhered to traditional norms that at times discourage emotional fluency, particularly when it comes to so-called softer emotions such as sadness or fear. This societal pressure can stifle the open expression of vulnerability, creating a cultural environment where emotions are constrained.

[00:08:50] - Agnieszka

Phrases like "act like a man" or "don't cry like a girl" have echoed through generations and shaped the way men perceive and express their emotions. The implications of this emotional suppression reach far and wide, affecting not just individuals, but entire systems within our society. Families, politics, workplaces they all bear the imprint of these expectations. As boys grow into men carrying these societal norms, they often find themselves disconnected from their emotional core. They may struggle to define their true self-identity, refrain from seeking help when needed, and experience emotional blockages that deny them permission to feel and express their innermost emotions.

[00:09:51] - Agnieszka

The pressure to act tough and manly conforming to the standards of traditional masculinity, even though it might not seem like a big deal, has a big impact on many people's lives. This is a complex issue that impacts men's emotional well being and their journey in the world of trading. This pressure can make it feel shameful for men to show vulnerability, ask for help, or seek emotional support. Some men fear that expressing their emotions will make them appear weak or less masculine in the eyes of others. That could be the reason why most trading chat rooms are not exactly the place where you will find a lot of emotional sharing and as a result, not much emotional support either.

[00:10:43] - Agnieszka

For example, you might fear that sharing your emotions or asking for help will lead to being rejected or even laughed at. Just think about it. When you are struggling with a losing streak, you are probably feeling overwhelmed and stressed about your financial situation, but you are not very keen on sharing it with anyone. You probably don't have many friends that understand much about trading. And your family always say you're gambling when you even say one word about the market.

[00:11:15] - Agnieszka

So logically, you are trying to deal with a situation on your own. Not to mention the fact that often your losses are a result of you breaking the rules and you simply feel ashamed to talk about it to anyone. You worry that others might think you are a loser. Eventually, your stress level is compounding and interfering with your ability to make rational decisions. Sometimes not being able to express your emotions might be just a matter of practice.

[00:11:48] - Agnieszka

If you have grown up in a family with no opportunity to express your emotions freely, you may simply have difficulty not just communicating your feelings, but even identifying what you feel. In the world of trading, there is often a prevailing belief that emotions should be completely eradicated from the equation. Many traders buy into the notion that to succeed, they must become emotionless machines, unaffected by the highs and lows of the market. This mindset can lead them to avoid acknowledging or even identifying their emotions altogether. And because they strive to push their emotions aside, believing that doing so is the key to making rational, unemotional decisions.

[00:12:39] - Agnieszka

They don't even notice that they have an expression issue. Many times, people develop alternative coping mechanisms for dealing with emotions. For example, some people use humor when traders feel pressured to suppress or ignore their emotions. They also develop alternative coping mechanisms to navigate the emotional roller coaster. These mechanisms can take various forms, from over-trading in an attempt to numb emotional discomfort with constant action, to turning to external distractions or even substance use as a temporary escape.

[00:13:16] - Agnieszka

These coping strategies may offer brief comfort, but rarely provide lasting solutions. In fact, they can compound the emotional challenges over time and potentially lead to more impulsive decisions and more trading losses. Another way to handle emotions is simply pretend you don't have them, rather than directly expressing what you feel. The only thing with pretending is that it doesn't make the feelings go away. In fact, it can actually intensify them.

[00:13:51] - Agnieszka

A classic example of this is anger. Many people believe that it is better to temp down anger than express it. It is true that we need to control our emotions to some extent for our everyday interactions. Just imagine for a moment a world where every time we experience anger, frustration or irritation, we immediately acted upon these emotions without any restraint. It is not very hard to envision the chaos and the discord that would follow, right?

[00:14:24] - Agnieszka

In this sense, temporary suppression of our immediate reactions is not only beneficial, but often essential for maintaining social harmony. However, here is where things get intriguing. When we simply suppress our emotions in the moment, but fail to revisit and process them later, we unintentionally engage in a form of emotional suppression. It's like putting a lid on a boiling pot without ever allowing the steam to escape. Over time, this emotional pressure can build up much like a pressure cooker, ready to release its accumulated steam explosively.

[00:15:09] - Agnieszka

Have you ever found yourself suddenly exploding in anger or frustration with seemingly no apparent reason or trigger? This experience is not uncommon, and it often stems from the buildup of suppressed emotions. It's as if those emotions have been lurking beneath the surface, waiting for the slightest provocation to erupt. But here's the kicker. Suppressing your emotions doesn't just impact your immediate social interactions.

[00:15:40] - Agnieszka

It can also have a profound effect on your internal well being. Did you know that it can contribute to increased stress levels? Stress, as many of us are well aware, is a silent and pervasive force that can significantly affect various aspects of our lives, including our performance in high pressure environments like trading. Now, let's tie it all back to our main focus trading. Could it be that unaddressed emotional suppression is lurking beneath the surface, quietly adding to the stress and challenges you encounter during trading?

[00:16:25] - Agnieszka

And if so, isn't it essential to recognize that understanding emotions, processing and effectively managing them should be your main focus as a trader? Suppressing emotions isn't just an abstract concept. It also has tangible physiological effects on our bodies. While short term suppression typically doesn't cause lasting problems, it's something you can certainly feel if you have ever treated yourself to a deep tissue massage. Stress, often a result of emotional suppression, can tighten your muscles, leaving you feeling physically tense and knotted.

[00:17:10] - Agnieszka

But the real concern comes when emotional suppression becomes a long term habit. Remember, unexpressed emotions don't simply vanish, they linger within your body. They are like uninvited guests that are staying longer than welcome. And over time, they can manifest as damaging physical and psychological effects. Some traders, for example, find themselves struggling with anxiety, depression and other stress related illnesses.

[00:17:45] - Agnieszka

In some cases, suppression can even pave the way to addiction, as people turn to substances or harmful behaviors as a means to cope with the emotional anxiety they avoid facing. Did you know that statistically, men are more prone to substance addiction than women? Could that be related to emotional suppression that is more common among men than women? Before we move on, I want to clarify one crucial point here. Suppressing emotions is not a form of control or management.

[00:18:25] - Agnieszka

It's more like pushing those emotions away, hiding them deep within our subconscious, and operating in a state of denial and unawareness. It's a practice that keeps us emotionally unconscious. Now, for those among you who may believe in the idea of becoming a mechanical trader, one who completely eliminates emotions from the trading equation, let's pause for a second. Because even if you make changes to cut down on negative emotions, it won't eliminate your stress triggers. That means that if you have any suppressed emotions, you will still need to find a way to deal with them.

[00:19:12] - Agnieszka

So instead of striving to eliminate or to suppress emotions from your trading, I encourage you to consider a more effective approach. Emotions, after all, are a part of being human. They provide a zest, the passion and the joy in our lives. And they can be valuable allies in trading when put to use effectively. Rather than avoiding them, aim to use your emotions flexibly and intelligently in your trading journey.

[00:19:47] - Agnieszka

Consider this: what if the reason you struggle to control your emotions in trading is simply because you are not genuinely acknowledging them? What if the root of your trading challenges lies in your reluctance to admit what you're feeling? Keep in mind that you cannot manage or control something if you refuse to confront it or even look at it. So regardless of your upbringing and the baggage you may carry, isn't it worth the risk to embrace your emotions if it means improving your trading results? Emotions are the essence of our humanity, the vivid colors that paint the canvas of our life.

[00:20:39] - Agnieszka

Being emotional is neither a side of strength nor weakness. It's a natural aspect of human experience. They are signals between our brains and our bodies. Ignoring your emotions is like disregarding a vital system in your body. It's like ignoring the signals from your digestive system telling you it's time to eat.

[00:21:04] - Agnieszka

Imagine brushing aside your body's call for nourishment, for weeks, months or years. It's simply unthinkable, right? The point here is your emotional guidance system is as integral to your being as any other physiological system. It's not something to dismiss or ridicule. It's part of your humanity that deserves acknowledgment and understanding.

[00:21:34] - Agnieszka

And by allowing yourself to feel your emotions and extending compassion toward yourself, you will take a leap forward on your trading journey. Because you will realize that the only thing you are fighting with right now in your trading is yourself. Your own resistance. Just think about it. Most people choose to become a trader to achieve freedom.

[00:22:01] - Agnieszka

Many want to become independent from others, having nobody tell them what to do. Being your own boss, what if this has something to do with not wanting to be confronted with yourself? I don't know about you, but in my experience, when you engage with other people, they have the ability to somehow trigger emotions that usually don't get triggered. When I am on my own, does that ring a bell? Usually, other people are a very good mirror, reflecting your behavior that you don't really want to see from yourself and confront.

[00:22:41] - Agnieszka

And maybe you're thinking right now, no, that's definitely not me. Well, I invite you to just observe that resistance and see what is being triggered. But I get it. It could be scary to confront your feelings. After all, there was a reason to hide them in the first place.

[00:22:59] - Agnieszka

And most traders don't even want to hear that. They need to work on their mindset, let alone their emotions. Can you imagine a headline? If you want to become a successful trader, you first need to learn to talk about your emotions. There would not be a good advertising for the trading industry, and I bet this would make trading much less popular, especially among men.

[00:23:25] - Agnieszka

But the truth is, whether you want it or not, trading will force you to reconnect with your emotions. And your trading success depends on how soon you allow this process to happen. And for those of you who still may believe that emotions are somehow reserved for one gender, it's time to embrace the duality within all of us. Within each of us, there exists a spectrum of experiences. The positive and the negative, the feminine side and the masculine side.

[00:23:59] - Agnieszka

The yin and the yang. These dualities coexist within us, each complementing the other, creating a rich tapestry of human experience. You cannot fully understand how you can make rational decisions if you don't understand how you make the emotional ones. Remember, the path to grow often entails a challenging climb. But the view from the summit is worth every effort.

[00:24:29] - Agnieszka

When emotions shake you and throw you off balance, view it as an opportunity to strengthen your purpose and to refocus. Stay nonjudgmental toward what you feel. Stop calling yourself names when things get rough. And when you feel frustrated or angry about another loss or mistake. Just take notice of the emotion you feel.

[00:24:54] - Agnieszka

Pay attention to the actual sensation in your body, and instead of putting label on it, start writing your observations in a journal, right there in the heat of the moment. It will help you to understand what is happening within you. On a deeper level, it will take your focus away from reacting, and it will give you a chance to decide about your next step. There is no need to fear emotions. They are fleeting anyway, flowing through you like passing clouds.

[00:25:30] - Agnieszka

They are here to guide you, to help you grow. With every emotional experience, you stand at the crossroads. How will you choose to act? Will you react or respond? Emotions illuminate what truly matters to you and offer invaluable insights into your inner world.

[00:25:53] - Agnieszka

Embrace them. They are the compass that points the way on your journey of self discovery and trading mastery. Indeed, self awareness and care are your allies on the path to mastering your emotions. To truly harness the power of emotions in your trading journey, you must remain aware of their presence. When emotions arrive, don't shy away from them.

[00:26:21] - Agnieszka

Instead, greet them with curiosity and an open mind. Take a moment to study them. How do they make you feel? What messages do they carry? Emotions are like messages from your inner world, each one offering valuable insights into your thoughts, beliefs and triggers.

[00:26:43] - Agnieszka

It is essential to understand that you don't need to act on every emotion you experience. Emotions serve as signals, guiding you through the landscape of your internal world. Feel them, acknowledge them, and then allow them to pass like ripples on the surface of a lake. Mastery comes from a place of openness and acceptance, and I hope that you now feel inspired to dare to open yourself up to your emotions, to allow them to be for what they are, without judgment or resistance. Embrace the full spectrum of your emotional experience, and in doing so, you will find a new level of joy, resilience and clarity in your trading journey.

[00:27:34] - Agnieszka

So I want to offer you this as food for thought. Imagine your emotions as transactions in the market of your inner world. Just as you enter and exit a trade with precision, emotions enter and exit your consciousness. It's a dance of energy, a constant ebb and flow. Your emotions come and recede, much like the exhalation of a breath.

[00:28:02] - Agnieszka

The energy that once searched through you now retreats, creating space for reflection and decision making. And then, just like a new trade presenting itself, fresh emotion emerges. It's the cycle of trading, the heartbeat of your journey. The key to trading success lies in embracing this rhythm, in allowing your emotions to move freely within this cycle. To navigate the market with competence, you need to navigate your emotional landscape with skill and precision.

[00:28:41] - Agnieszka

Be present, be mindful, and let the emotional energy flow through you. Let it in and then release it. Let it go without clinging or resistance. Trust that the cycle will continue, just as the market always provides new opportunities. Remember, in the world of trading and emotions, you are the master of your inner market.

[00:29:07] - Agnieszka

Embrace the flow, trust the process, and let each emotion be a valuable transaction on your path to trading excellence.

[00:29:19] - Agnieszka

Thank you for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. If you are enjoying my show, if the insights I share here resonate with you, I would like to ask you for a small favor. Your feedback is invaluable to me and it helps me continue to deliver high quality content that empowers traders like yourself. So please take a moment to leave a review on Apple podcasts.

[00:29:43] - Agnieszka

Your review not only brightens my day, but also helps other traders discover the show. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button as well so you can come back for the next episode. Your journey to becoming a more confident and successful trader is very important to me, and I am here to support you every step of the way. If you are interested in gathering more insights in trading psychology, be sure to visit aheadcoach.com and check out my newest online course, Unlock Your Trading Mindset. This course is the first step for anyone who seek consistency and long term 

results in trading.

[00:30:27] - Agnieszka

You will learn how to truly make a difference in your trading results. I am Agnieszka Wood from Ahead Coach, and I look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Bye for now.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/

In this podcast episode, host Agnieszka Wood interviews Jermaine McGruder, known as The Strat Soldier, about the art of cutting losses in trading. Jermaine, a former army soldier with 20 years of experience, shares his journey in trading, emphasizing the importance of protecting capital and following a disciplined approach. He advises traders to focus on their setups, set proper stop losses, and prioritize capital protection. Jermaine also discusses the recent passing of Rob Smith, the creator of The Strat, and how he and the trading community are continuing his legacy by trading The Strat and sharing their knowledge with others. The episode provides different perspectives that traders can use to shift the way of experiencing the market.

Furthermore, Jermaine and Agnieszka delve into various aspects of trading, including the significance of recognizing trends, understanding price action, and analyzing multiple time frames. They stress the importance of discipline, following trading rules, and avoiding emotional reactions to losses. The conversation also touches on the challenges of trading. It provides valuable insights into the emotional and psychological aspects of trading, managing emotions and emphasize the importance of accountability and vulnerability.

About Jermaine McGruder

Jermaine McGruder, also known as The Strat Soldier, is a passionate trader and experienced educator. Jermaine embarked on his journey with The STRAT in 2019 and quickly honed his skills, becoming adept at both trading and teaching this methodology. His guidance has empowered seasoned traders to curb significant losses and has equipped newcomers with the ability to identify buy and sell signals confidently.

Jermaine's teaching philosophy centers on enabling individuals to trade based on their convictions and take actionable signals without succumbing to significant losses. Drawing from his extensive 20-year military background, Jermaine brings a wealth of leadership and training experience to his teaching approach. Whether on the battlefield or in the world of trading, he excels in leading and educating individuals, making him a valuable asset in The STRAT community.

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

Contact Jermaine McGruder:

• Podcast: InForce
• The Weekend Show: The Weekend Shift
• Twitter: @Cyberdog2
• Website: http://TheStratSoldier.com

—

Transcript

[00:00:02] - Agnieszka

I am Agnieszka Wood. Welcome to the Confidence in Trading podcast. Let me introduce my special guest on today's show, Jermaine McGruder, aka The Strat Soldier. You might recognize Jermaine from his very popular Strat webinar with Benzinga that has gained over 70,000 views, or his appearance on first trade show with Rohan Makhecka in June 2021. And if you are a podcast fan, you might know Jermaine from his show In Force, where he looks at the markets through the eyes of The Strat and his weekly Saturday show, The Weekend Shift. As you might have already figured out from his nickname, The Strat Soldier, Jermaine has been in the army for 20 years and has worked with hundreds of soldiers in various environments. And as he puts it, leading and training is what I do. I invited Jermaine to my show to talk about the one aspect of trading that hurts traders and their bottom line the most. Welcome to episode number 14, the Art of Cutting Losses. Hi, Jermaine. Welcome to my podcast, and thank you so much for making the time for joining me today.

[00:01:18] - Jermaine

Thanks for having me. Thank you so much, Agnieszka. This is awesome. This is really cool. I love meeting new people and also, of course, talking about The Strat and then the whole idea of cutting losses. Perfect idea. I love it. I love it.

[00:01:31] - Agnieszka

Fantastic. Jermaine, you have been trading The Strat since 2019, and you have been a leader at Sepia Group with Rob Smith since September 2021. May he rest in peace. His sudden departure must have been pretty hard for you, and I cannot even begin to imagine the impact on the trading community.

[00:01:51] - Jermaine

Yeah, it's been tough. It's been real tough. Rob was always a character. That's what we loved about Rob. So when are, you know, I'm not feeling well. I'm not doing this or that. We all were. You know, rob's going through his own little inside know to use some trading. You know, we're like, he's going inside bar right now. He's going to be okay, and he'll reverse back to the upside. He'll be fine. It was a little bit of a shock that he didn't pull through because he was such a character, so funny, and he always found a way to figure it out. So, yeah, very sad. But we are going to keep Rob alive by continuing to trade The Strat and continuing to do what he said to do, which is create those winning positions. Then after you understand what you're doing, show the next person. And that's been my motivation since the beginning of all of it, is to show other people how to not get killed in here and not blow out accounts, not all these things. 30 years on CBOE, you know what I mean? 30 years on the floor and doing what he does.

[00:03:02] - Jermaine

And it's amazing for him to just talk to regular people and teach regular people how to do I say regular people, but we're all regular people. I'm just saying to talk to an average person and say, okay, this is how stocks work. It was an amazing skill to learn, and I hope to keep passing it on to other people.

[00:03:23] - Agnieszka

That's amazing and really wonderful that you're passing on the legacy. And I really regret I never had a chance to meet him personally, but I've heard so much good about him and about his strategy. I actually interviewed few months ago, Ben Okopnik, who is also trading the strategy. That's how I actually heard about Rob. So, yeah, big loss. So you have been trading the Strat for a relatively short time, and you managed to become not only proficient in it, but also good at teaching it. Can you tell us a little bit more about your trading experience and what's your secret?

[00:04:05] - Jermaine

Oh, the secret is there are no secrets now.

[00:04:09] - Agnieszka

That's the best one.

[00:04:11] - Jermaine

That's the best one. The secret is just trading what's actually happening on the charts. And that can be difficult because you have to be able to tell yourself the truth. Like, you can draw as many lines on your charts as you want. You can have all the indicators and all the squawk boxes and community leaders and people telling you what you need to do, but you're still the one that has to hit the button, right? You're still the one that has to go, okay, we're going. This is my entry, this is my exit. This is what I'm going to do. And I think that's when trading kind of really clicks for most people when they go, okay, I know what everybody's saying, but what do I really see on the charts? I know what the news is saying, but what do I really see on the charts? What do I see really happening? Are they really buying it or are they really selling it? And some people don't know at all. Some people are like, Well, I don't know, how did you figure it out.

[00:05:12] - Agnieszka

In such a short time?

[00:05:13] - Jermaine

Yeah, I'm trying to get into that. When I first started trading back in 2019, way before the Strat, I was working with a buddy and I was like, man, I want to get into stocks. It sounds like something I'd want to do. And so he introduced me to Robinhood and he's like, yeah, it's easy. There's no account minimums. You just put your money in here, and then once you get your money in there, I'll show you how to start doing it. So he starts showing me how to find stocks, how to buy stocks, and I'm thinking, I'm doing pretty good, I'm doing all right. And for the first few months, I was doing really well. Of course, things were all trending to the highs, so I didn't realize how easy it really was. And then he starts talking about options because I'm like, well, I want to make more money. I'm doing pretty good. I want to make more. So he starts talking about options, and then that was a whole nother ballgame. That with only a few months experience, I shouldn't have been messing with. But I didn't know that at the time.

[00:06:08] - Jermaine

I just had my buddy saying, hey, this is how you do it.

[00:06:11] - Agnieszka

That's how you become millionaire in a short time.

[00:06:14] - Jermaine

Yeah, that's how you do it. Yeah, that's how you make millions. And then he showed me buying options into earnings reports. I'm like, okay, so that was not a good deal. That was not a good idea to do. But he told me, you know what I mean? So the one example I always talk about is Twitter. I bought all these calls into Twitter because Twitter has never missed an earnings. And this is all the way before, back in 2019. So I read all this yahoo news. I read all these articles. I read all this stuff. And so I buy calls because they never miss. Well, this is first quarter of 2020. Yeah, they missed last quarter. They missed big, and boom. And I lost half my account at that time, and honestly, it was around $500. But me being a brand new trader, that's a big deal. That's a huge deal for me. Wait a minute. Hold on a second. Now, this is not why I wanted to start trading. And so, you know what I mean? I had to deal with that with myself, and I had to deal with that with because I had to talk to my wife, too.

[00:07:23] - Jermaine

I'm like, I told you, I'm not getting in this to gamble. I'm not getting in to just throw away money. But this loss happened, and I stopped trading. I didn't quit. I just stopped, like, let me find a coach. Let me find somebody that can help me out. 2019. And that's when I found Rob in October of 2019. So I apologize for the timeline there, but that's when I found Rob, and I found some articles on Instagram talking about these scenarios. Scenario one, scenario two, scenario three. And this is how we know when to get in and when to get out. So I read his article. What do we know to be true about Price action? And that was a great article, and I learned more in that one article than all the YouTube videos I was watching about how to trade. And then that's when I joined his live room, and that's when, okay, things started clicking for me, because I knew when to get in, because Rob was helping. Of course rob's helping me. He's coaching me. But I got to a point where I started to know, okay, this is when I need to get in, and this is when the trade is not going well.

[00:08:25] - Jermaine

I need to get out. The system is telling me to cut it. Once I started knowing where to put my entries and where to put my stops, things started moving in the right direction, and then I started gaining confidence in my trading because I knew, like you said, when it started clicking for me is when I started trusting, okay, this is where my stop is at. And if it goes below this, I need to cut it. I need to get out, but if it sets back up, I can get right back in. But I'm protecting my capital. That was big for me, just protecting my capital. That's when it started clicking. You know what I mean? I don't need to throw a whole bunch on. I don't need to rush in the stuff. What are my actual setups? What is telling me to get in.

[00:09:18] - Agnieszka

Was that the impact of that first big loss which was a lucky loss in this case if the impact was I need to protect my capital because from experience, from my own experience. And also what I see from other traders, it's not that easy just to stick to your stop loss and actually even putting a stop loss right, because most traders think, how much am I going to make on it? And not so much I need to protect my capital in the first place. So how was that for you that you actually were so disciplined and you say, okay, I know I need to do it, and I'm just going to do it.

[00:09:53] - Jermaine

Yeah, the military definitely helps because there's a certain set of rules. Like, if you want to be effective in this, here's steps one through whatever this is. How one through five, for example, of a conversation. Here's the steps on how to do this event or how to be good at this training event. And you got to do it a certain way. And so when I sat down, I started, okay, what are my losses really coming in at? What's not working for me, and anytime it wasn't working for me is when I moved my stops down, not putting in a stop. And then another thing for me was knowing that options were not where I wouldn't needed to be at. Trading options was or is still a lot. It's not as easy as people say it is. And like you said, I've only been trading since 2019, and so I stick to common shares. And so the people that I work with, I tell them, stick to common shares. Why? Because you can put in a hard stop. I can put in a hard stop and go, okay, I'm taking this hammer on a weekly signal to the upside.

[00:11:02] - Jermaine

But here's where I'm getting out at. If it drops down too far and sometimes you get stopped out and you're like, I wish I would have stayed in because it went right back up the next day. But how many times have we also had experiences where you had no stop and it gapped way down, you know what I mean? Or you're shorting something and you had no stops, and it's gapping way up on you and you don't know.

[00:11:29] - Agnieszka

Yeah, you cannot trust the situation, what the market does. But the worst part, I think, in that is also when you don't have a stop and then it goes lower than your price and then your imaginary stop. Then the way you start talking to yourself and saying, yeah, but last time it did go back, so I'm just going to wait, right? Okay, it didn't happen today. Maybe tomorrow. And then before you know, you're just too late.

[00:11:56] - Jermaine

Yeah, you're too late. And you're just staring at it. It's like the deer in the headlights look. You're just do I when do I need to get in? When do I get out? Like, for example, today on Roku, I know we're not looking at charts, but today on Roku I got stopped out on Roku yesterday on a signal to the downside. I'm like, okay, I'm getting puts. And yesterday we all seen the market just kind of rally slowly back up on the 60 Minutes charts. And I'm like, what is this? And I got a job. I got a full time job, just like a lot of other traders. And I'm like, I got to get out, so I cut my losses. And then today this thing goes engulfing bar. Scenario three to the I'm trying really hard not to talk about Jargon, but.

[00:12:40] - Agnieszka

Scenario no, don't worry, this is for traders. So I assume that a lot of people who listening, they will understand what you're talking about.

[00:12:48] - Jermaine

Yeah, so they got this big engulfing bar on the day on Roku to the downside, and I didn't get back in. I'm working other then there's that situation again, I should have just held it. I should have just held through. So again, that's that discipline. Because I tell people, if you break your rules on this trade right now, you just take the trade. Because you know there's really not an entry. You're just taking it, or you're just going to jump in. I'm not putting any stops or you over leverage. You're just doing whatever you need to, and it's a winner. Okay, let's just say it's a winning trade, and we'll go with the positive side. First it's a winning trade, but then the next time you take a trade, you say to yourself, you automatically create that doubt. You go, okay, am I going to break my rules this time? Is this time going to be the time that works? This is where I'm supposed to get in at, and this is where I'm supposed to put my stops. But last time I just jumped in, so I just jump in and then it doesn't work.

[00:13:54] - Jermaine

Yeah, and now you have this cycle of trusting yourself, not trusting yourself, following your rules, not following your rules. I just got to the point where I was like, I'm putting my stops here. I'm going to trust the system, and if I have to get out, I will get out.

[00:14:09] - Agnieszka

That's so true, because it creates a ripple effect. Right. And I think a lot of people don't realize is that once you break the rule, it's not just this time you're breaking the rule. There is so much more that is going to happen afterwards, the internal dialog, and especially when you win that trade, right. Then it's just going to be more consequences than just this one that connected to this one trade directly. It will be much more. And I think that impact of that, that people are just not always aware or maybe don't want to think about.

[00:14:43] - Jermaine

Right. And it's hard to that's the temptation of, okay, well, I broke my rules, I made a lot of money. I broke my rules, now I lost a lot of money. So I just say, just follow your rules. Okay. You know what I mean? Because if you don't, that's when another conversation starts in your head is, okay, well, maybe this system is not working. Well, maybe I need to put in an RSI, or maybe I need to work on MACD, or maybe I need to get in before my two SMAs cross. Maybe if I get in before they cross, it'll just it never stops.

[00:15:21] - Agnieszka

Right?

[00:15:22] - Jermaine

It never stops. So then that came to the next thing is what Rob always talked about, and we talk about in the straddle, the time, what's actually happening, in the price, what's actually happening. Are they actually buying it or are they actually selling it? And to do that, we look at four different time frames. We look at the month, the week, the daily, and the 60. I'm going to say that a little slower because I say it all the time, but we look at the monthly chart, the weekly chart, the daily chart, and the 60 minutes chart, and we gage participants by price and time. So we're looking at all these time frames as like a multi analysis on these time frames to go. Okay, for example, right now, spy. I'm looking at a chart of spy, and it's inside on the month, and it's red. We look at the week, it's trading below last week's lows. It's two down. We call that scenario two down on the week. Two two continuation down. There's more selling happening on the week, which was reconfirming what we're seeing on the month that they're selling. And then on my daily chart, in my 60 minutes charts, it's red, they're selling it.

[00:16:32] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:16:32] - Jermaine

Okay. So I don't need to be getting in here and going, maybe it's time to buy.

[00:16:38] - Agnieszka

Yeah. They say that when the blood is on the street, I need to buy.

[00:16:41] - Jermaine

Yeah, exactly. Buy. When everybody is afraid. Yeah. So then you buy. And I talked to a trade about this yesterday. Again, I'm looking at my charts. I talked about a trader yesterday because I was frustrated. There's a couple of traders that are frustrated. They were like, okay, well, we had a reversal on the 60 Minutes charts, but we still made a lower low and we made another lower low today we got all the way down to 445 on the 60 minutes charts. And that can be very I'm going to say annoying. But again, that's where our stops come in at. Because if I have that hard stop and I can say if things go wrong, I'm out, right? I'm getting out. And if you're good at options or you're good at shorting stocks, then you can say, okay, this is where I'm going to short stuff. But this whole week has been just like a yoyo effect. It's been going up, going up, it's been going down, going up. We had Fed talk, we had Energies, we got all kinds of weird stuff going. Post consumer price index and then PPI, a production price index.

[00:17:51] - Jermaine

People always say CPI, PPI. They never know what it means.

[00:17:55] - Agnieszka

Sorry, I guess I'm so used to using acronyms.

[00:17:59] - Jermaine

No, that's great. I I love, love it. It and I tell people all the time, we don't trade the news, we trade the price. So they could say inflation, it's going terrible. Inflation is still going on the highs. Everything costs more. Producing things cost more and things go to the lows. We've also seen these reports come out and the market goes, yes, we know. And it goes back to the highs anyway, right? What is the price actually doing? Is it green or is it red? Red means sell, green means buy. And I know that's a really simple way of saying it, but once I started putting that stuff together, then things clicked. Then things were going I was looking at my trades different, going, okay, I got in here. Are they buying it right now? Are they still buying it? Do I need to push my stop up? Do I need to figure out a way to get out of this?

[00:18:55] - Agnieszka

Right? Yeah. The bottom line is that you have to act on what is happening and not what you're wishing that would happen.

[00:19:04] - Jermaine

Yes.

[00:19:05] - Agnieszka

Because trading, let's be fair, it is based a lot on our dreams, on our hopes, on what we want. And it's just so very easy to fall into the trap that if things are not exactly going the way you want it, that you are trying to control it and bend the reality to what just feels much better for you and that you keep that hope. Right. It's very normal. What we also do in our daily life, we try to control things in market. We just simply cannot. The only thing we need to try to control at least is ourselves and what we do. And when you have a system that you know it works and you can trust, then you don't have to even control the system. It's just you. That's the most difficult part.

[00:19:52] - Jermaine

Yes. And as I've been trading the strat and learning other systems along with that, you can do that same type of that you can have that same mentality. You should have that same mentality using indicators because you definitely want the price and the indicator to be going in the same direction. You want the indicator to be reconfirming. Yes, we're going to the highs, right? Yes, I need to stay in this thing, even the whole RSI overbought and oversold thing, you know what I mean? You still want the price and the direction of your indicator to reconfirm each other. Because once you start talking about divergences and I'm going to short it, when this thing is at the highs without any signals and it keeps going to the highs, you're not acknowledging that, yes, they're selling it right now, you know what I mean? And like I said, I want to say heartache. I don't know if that's the right word, but that's been the frustration and frustration on trading in the last couple of days. Last few days of this week, anyway, because the price is just gapping up and gapping down and then just kind of moving in a direction that's hard to stay in.

[00:21:05] - Jermaine

And you could ignore the price, stay in your position and go, it's not telling me to get out yet, but you have to know your system.

[00:21:14] - Agnieszka

Exactly. And I appreciate that you're actually acknowledging sometimes it's just hard to trade and to look what this price is doing and try to figure it out, what it's going to do, right? Because the indicators sometimes, okay, the stock is overbought or oversold, and now you're saying to yourself, yeah, it should come down, right? So let me short it. It should come down. It's enough. It went up so much. Now I think it should come down and then you start fighting the trend. So it's just not always or most of the time not what we think. Because we have wishful thinking a lot of times.

[00:22:01] - Jermaine

Yes. I was talking to some traders, and I guess we're all talking about Nvidia. I think Nvidia is a good example of what you're saying because once Nvidia had that great earnings and everybody can go look at your charts at home around June 14, no, around May 26. We got May 30. May 30. It got all up to 420. It got all up to 420 and it was like, there's no way it can go any higher. This is it. It's at all time highs, it can't go any higher. So people are like, well, I'm going to short it now. And I'm like, well, don't do that without actionable signals, you know what I mean? You want to know like a shooting star, we call them shooters or reversal on a daily time frame or weekly time frame that lets you know this is going down. And you did have a reversal from May 26 to may 30. Let me see here. Let me say that, right? May 30 and May 31, you had a reversal to the downside. It went all the way down to 378. I'm sure these people are like, yes. Told you.

[00:23:09] - Jermaine

See, start shortening it's over, right? Yeah, I was right. It did good. And that is true. It did do great. But then the very next day went right back up and you had a reversal right back up and it got all the way back up to 401. So now you're thinking, okay, I started shorting this thing below 400. It went all the way down to 378. I didn't take any profits. The very next day it gets all the way back up to 400. You have to look at it and go, what is it really doing? They're buying. And then you're like, well, my indicator is still saying it's overbought. It has to come back down. And to hold through all that pain and frustration and doubt, it's really hard. I'd rather you take your profits on that one trade, take a victory awesome and just cut it and then move on. And if it sets back up again and starts moving down again, then you can get back in. But now Nvidia got all the way back up to 483. There's a trader, I'm sure there are some traders out there that says, I'm just going to keep shorting it no matter what.

[00:24:18] - Jermaine

I know it's going to the highs, but it's overbought. I'm just going to keep shorting it. And have they been holding since 390 all the way up back up to 482?

[00:24:27] - Agnieszka

I hope not.

[00:24:29] - Jermaine

And now it's at 429. They're hoping that they get their money back.

[00:24:33] - Agnieszka

Yeah.

[00:24:36] - Jermaine

I always speak to the average person as well on these trades because you got to know, I tell people like, you're not Kathy Wood, you can't just keep averaging down on your stuff. Nothing against Kathy Woods, but you can't keep averaging down on your trades until it means nothing. Like, I don't have that type of capital and some other people don't either. But some people do and they can keep doing that. But I'm like only losers, average losers. So if you just keep averaging down thinking it's going to go to zero, I'd rather you just cut this trade. It went well. I didn't take profits. It's going back up. I'm acknowledging what the price is doing and I need to get out of this thing because that's also going to give you confidence as well when you have a winning position. I got in here, it went exactly where I said it was going to go. I need to move my stops toward the direction of the price, and I want to hold my winners keeps going in the direction I want it to go, but I'm going to push my stops up toward the price so that if it starts going the other way, I take some profits.

[00:25:45] - Agnieszka

Exactly. And it's a very simple principle. If you want to be a winner, stick to the winners, right. Stick to the people that represent who you want to be and where you want to get to. So sticking to the loser is never a really good idea if you want to be successful.

[00:26:00] - Jermaine

Trader yeah, here's a good analogy, analogy I have on trading. Let's just say you want to have five winning positions. Five winning positions. And here's my entries, 12345. They're in there and so far they're going great. And it's kind of like inviting people over for a party. You got five people come over, you got the drinks, you got the music, you got the right atmosphere, everybody's having a good time. And then all of a sudden two of these guests start having they started having a little argument about, I don't know, maybe the music. They don't like the music because this artist has politics. Sale I'm not going to talk politics here, but they start having a conversation. They're not having a good time. Now these two guests have an attitude now and they're kind of bringing down the mood of the party. They're not dancing now. They're like now they're complaining about the drinks, they're complaining about the food and let's just say the party. But the other three guests, they're having a great time. They're engaging, they're telling jokes, they're having fun. And let's say by the end of the night, you're like, I have a house big enough, everybody gets their own room.

[00:27:15] - Jermaine

We're going to spend the night. Are you going to let these other two people that are not having a good time spend the night?

[00:27:21] - Agnieszka

It's such a great metaphor.

[00:27:25] - Jermaine

How much confidence that you have that they're just going to sleep it off and in the morning they're going to do better. So you let everybody spend the night. Everybody's got their own separate rooms. They spend the night, all the blankets, everything's great, temperatures are great. They wake up in the next morning and you're hoping that these two come out of their rooms having a good time. You know what I mean? They're happy. They got over whatever was going on, and you feed them pancakes and everything is great. But in reality, what's probably going to happen is the three people that are having a good time, they're going to come out and continue to have good breakfast and then have a good day. And the other two are going to be worse. They're going to be worse than they were before. That's a metaphor I use for trading. Like, I got three positions, I got five positions. They're doing great. Three are winners. Two of them are going red, okay? Two of them are red. And I'm looking at the charts and there's no evidence that I need to be holding these positions. I need to cut them because if you let them stay at the party long enough, they're.

[00:28:27] - Jermaine

Going to ruin the profits that you're gaining from these other three trades. Yes. And what a lot of people do is they'll say, okay, well, these three trades, they're doing great. I'm going to go ahead and take profits on these three. They were great. And then I'm going to hold these losers, and hopefully they'll come back. All right, go back to the analogy here. The three people that were having fun, they were dancing. You got to a certain part of the party, you're like, okay, guys, have a good night. You guys can leave. And then the other two that are having a bad time, you guys can spend the night, and hopefully tomorrow you'll have a good right. I'll make breakfast, we'll go to the movies. It'll be fun.

[00:29:09] - Agnieszka

No, it's not going to happen. And you have to put so much more energy into it, which would, in trading, it would translate. Most likely, you would come up with this idea, I'm just going to add to it. Right? I will put just more capital into it so I can average down, make things better. They never become better.

[00:29:27] - Jermaine

No. Yeah. Now, your guests that spent the night, they complained that you put too many blankets on them. That the music that you put on for them to sleep, too, they weren't really into it. And then the breakfast that you made for them is terrible.

[00:29:40] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And I remember years ago, what I used to do, I was lying to myself that, you know what? Maybe I just get rid of one, then the other one will come around. So I would sell half of my losing position and then kept the other half, hoping that when it comes down even more, I had those strategies all thought out in my head. When it would come down even lower, then I can add back the half I'm selling now, and then this will become profitable. No, because I was taking on that half. The loss, that was like, twice as much than the original loss. It was just once you start, it just never ends. Just gets worse.

[00:30:19] - Jermaine

Yes, it does just get worse, I would say. But I also say it starts the cycle. When it does work, sometimes when you're like, okay, I'll sell half. And then you get an actual signal, and it goes back up, and you're like, then you buy, and it does work. So you're like, okay, well, this worked.

[00:30:37] - Agnieszka

All right, this worked. I'm just going to start averaging down.

[00:30:40] - Jermaine

What I'm doing now. But then when it doesn't work, you're just like, oh, my goodness. At the beginning of the year, the beginning of the year, you look at Spy, it was really tough. Everybody's like, I'm going to keep shorting the market. I'm just going to keep shortening it. But we just kept creeping back up. Right. And then actually, from November of 2022 to March of was just trading sideways. If you look at the monthly chart, just trading sideways. So nobody knew what to do. Everybody's just like, what are we doing here? And that's in the strat. We were just like, okay, until we get a reversal on, we're going to go for the things that are taken out last month's highs. We're going to go where the buyers are. When Spy was red, we were like, okay, let's look at things are taking out yesterday's lows or last month's lows. Let's short those and to try to stay with the trend. You know what I mean? Always acknowledge what the trend is actually doing. But then April comes in. We actually get a reversal back up on Spy above March's highs. Two two reversal back up.

[00:31:52] - Jermaine

We call that two two reversal back up. It's been going well since then. And we used AI to say, yes, this is why we're buying. Because of AI. I don't think it's because of AI. The institutional buyers got sick of the downside. They got sick of, we need to pick a direction. And they chose. And things started going to the highs.

[00:32:14] - Agnieszka

The new buzzword, AI. Like, whoever drops AI, the stock pops.

[00:32:22] - Jermaine

This podcast uses AI and 10,000 more viewers for you.

[00:32:29] - Agnieszka

It's so funny because I saw this also in earnings, like conference calls, everyone drops the word AI.

[00:32:37] - Jermaine

Wow.

[00:32:38] - Agnieszka

Oh, my God. This is going to be the next big thing.

[00:32:41] - Jermaine

Kroger, the grocery store. Kroger was talking about AI. And you're just like, what? I hope there's not AI picking my groceries out for me or whatever they're talking about. It's crazy. So what I'm saying with all of that is you have to be able to acknowledge the trend no matter what trading system you're using. I use time frames. I look at the month, the week, the daily, and the 60. And I'm looking at, okay, where the buyers are. Where is this price actually going? For a person that uses indicators, you have to be able to look at it and go, okay, what's the actual trend? I know what my indicator says, but what's the price actually doing? Like, for example, right now, SPY starting to reverse back up to the highs after a lot of selling this morning. Okay, I don't know if you've talked about prices on your show, so I don't want to confuse anybody.

[00:33:34] - Agnieszka

It doesn't matter. Okay, now we do.

[00:33:37] - Jermaine

So the price got taken all the way down to 454 nine. And now currently, did it hit 50 day?

[00:33:46] - Agnieszka

No.

[00:33:47] - Jermaine

Well, I'd have to turn on the 50 day to see that, but it's definitely below the 14. SMA. I kind of looked at that stuff before the show just to give you guys that do. Look at that. Some indication of what's going on with the price. But everything went low. Everything went to the lows for the first 2 hours, and now it's reversing back up. So again, that's a situation where you go, okay, what's the trend actually doing? I bought these puts. I started shorting the stock, and it went great for the first 2 hours. But what's it doing right now, right now in this moment, it's starting to reverse back up to the highs. So if I had a winning position, I need to push my stops toward the price, and I need to figure out a way to get out so I don't lose that profit. And then on the other side of that is if I was shorting something and I'm not taking profits and I haven't taken profits, and I'm not moving my stops, you need to acknowledge, okay, this is what the trend is actually doing. What evidence do you have that the trend is continuing to go down?

[00:34:50] - Jermaine

You know what I mean?

[00:34:51] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And from what you're saying, I assume and I actually haven't asked, which probably I should have is you swing trade, not day trade?

[00:35:01] - Jermaine

Yes, I'm a swing trader. I have a full time job. I tell people all the time. I have a wife. I have kids. I have a cat. I have two cats. Now, like, I'm busy. I don't have time to look at the charts all the time. But when I do, like today, when I do have time to sit in front of the charts, that's when, okay, you can look at everything that way. You can look at options and things like that if that's what you do. But I am a swing trader. I want to get into a winning position, and I want to stay in that position as long as possible. So I do want to look at those weekly time frames. I like to trade weekly and monthly time frames, and hopefully I get into a position where it continues to go up. And then through the days and through the weeks, I can just keep pushing my stops up, my stop market orders up on my common shares until I get stopped out, because how many times as well you're like, okay, I'm going to go ahead and just take this position and I got a meeting in three minutes.

[00:36:03] - Jermaine

So then I go ahead and just buy this stuff, and you go to the meeting, and the meeting is like, meeting. Then you have a meeting after the meeting, and you're like, you can't look at your phone, because that's rude. You can't do that. And you get out of the meetings, and you're looking at this thing, you're like, what the heck? What is that?

[00:36:21] - Agnieszka

That was not the idea. I'm supposed to make money.

[00:36:24] - Jermaine

Exactly. So that's why I like those hard stops. Again, I use stop market sell orders just to get out. That way, if something silly happens, I'm out. I don't have to man, why didn't I do this?

[00:36:41] - Agnieszka

Yeah, I know. Do you check also throughout the day your positions at work?

[00:36:47] - Jermaine

Yes, I do. Again, that's the strat. We're always looking at the very next 60 minutes bar that opens up. The market opens at 930. So we're looking at 930, 10 30, 11 30, 12 30 at the bottom of the hour. Because we know that's when the next participation group comes in, we want to know, are they still buying or are they selling? Was it last week when AMD was just like, they are just buying AMD. And it went great for like three, maybe 4 hours, and then they said, okay, sell. And again, that's when we push our stops up and we go, okay, this is where I'm getting out at, you know what I mean? So, yes, I would rather swing trade again with those common shares and be in something and be great and have that confidence in, okay, now it's reversing to the lows. The trend is now reversing. I need to go ahead and push my stops up, and if it continues down, I'm out. I get stopped out in profit, and.

[00:37:42] - Agnieszka

I go do something else. Because if the price goes back to your buy price, or hopefully not, but I'm there. It's not just that you didn't make anything, okay? You can tell to yourself, I haven't had anything in the first place, but then everything was for nothing, and you're just frustrated. You lose your confidence in yourself, and it's like, why did I do that? And then the whole revenge trading dynamics comes in, right? Okay, then I'm just going to get in and try it again. So I would really recommend everyone to check the Strat because I know that there are day traders who actually have full time jobs. And swing trading is not something that a lot of day traders see as something sexy. For some reason. It's very different. But swing trading is good. You can make money swing trading.

[00:38:34] - Jermaine

Yeah, exactly. So again, looking at participation groups, okay, so again, I gage participants by price and time. So if I'm trading in the month, I got four weeks. That's why I like weekly trades. If this thing goes great for two weeks, maybe three weeks, of course I want it all month. But if I got two weeks that are great, and then it starts reversing the lows, that's two good weeks of trading, you know what I mean?

[00:38:59] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:38:59] - Jermaine

So, like, well, that's too much. I want to go day trade. So now you have, what, 20 days of actual trading? And now you have 20 different bars to deal with, okay? And then they're like, well, people just keep reducing their time frames. And then all of a sudden they're like, well, I'm just going to trade 15 minutes bars. But now you have our ten minute bars. If you trade ten minute bars, that gives you, was it 39 different bars to deal with during the day, right? I ain't talking about the week yet. I'm talking about during the day. And that's a whole another participation group. Every time that next bar opens, they have to keep reconfirming the trend or your position, you know what I mean? If they're buying each next ten minute bar opens, they have to keep buying for your position to be going well. And you're like, once it starts going down, once it starts reversing down, you have to deal with that. You know what I mean?

[00:39:53] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And the lower the time frame, you open up much more to the dynamics of getting triggered and your emotions and being over trading and being triggered by those swings from up and down. Right? Because then your hopes, your fears, the greed, and everything just comes into play. When you swing trading, you don't see that, right? Especially if you just look at the 1 hour chart from time to time. It's very different.

[00:40:24] - Jermaine

Yes, it's very different.

[00:40:25] - Agnieszka

It also depends on your, I think, personality, because I day trade. I also have a swing trade account. But day trading is just something that I feel much more comfortable with. But I trade only until 11:00.

[00:40:41] - Jermaine

Okay.

[00:40:41] - Agnieszka

And then I closed my charts. That's why I didn't know if Spy actually reached it's.

[00:40:45] - Jermaine

Moving back up, leveled it's at 446. Right now. 446, 55. But no, I love it. That's great. But that's why I look at the 60 Minutes bars as well, and I tell day traders, you least want to know what's going on with the 60 Minutes bar, because 60 Minutes tells you, this is what's happening right now, right? Then look at your daily chart and go, okay, what's happening today? So in the strat, I always tell people, especially for day trading, you want to look at those 60s you want to look at the 60 Minutes bar, go, are they buying or they're selling? And then on the day, is it green or is it red? You know what I mean? Because that's going to let you know. So I tell day traders, look at the 60 Minutes charts. 60 Minutes charts, because that's telling you what's happening right now. And then the daily charts, what's happening today. If it's green on the day and green on the 60 Minutes bars and you want to go do something crazy on the 15 minutes, you have all the evidence that you need to go, okay, this will continue to the highs because they're buying it right now, and they're buying it today.

[00:41:50] - Jermaine

And then you can start working those smaller time frames if that's what you like. But for you to only look at one time frame and go ten minute charts is all I do. You are not seeing all the other you'll see all these crazy. You could look at it later on, you're like, yeah, this was the head and shoulders, and here's the cup, and here's the lip and the handle, and this is where the breakout was. But if you just go to the 60 Minutes chart, you'll go, oh, man, they sold it down for two days. They sold it down for 2 hours and then in the third hour, here it comes. You know what? I may reverse back to the highs or at least the daily chart and go, okay, yeah, I shouldn't have did any of that because they were selling it all day. This was just some fluctuation of yeah, definitely.

[00:42:34] - Agnieszka

It gives you a context, right, a perspective. And I think trading is a lot about different perspectives. Whether you're talking about the price or you're talking about yourself, to putting yourself in perspective. Right. What you do, your emotions and everything that you're doing really needs to kind of everything that's personal, you have to put in perspectives to kind of get yourself out of it. Step back and look at what is actually happening here. What am I telling to myself? What am I feeling? What is happening here? So that you don't project it onto the market? Like your dreams, your fears, your losses that you just took because it all doesn't matter.

[00:43:21] - Jermaine

Yes, I like to tell people the things that you are the one that determines what things mean. You know what I mean? So if you're just like you take some losses and you're like, I'm a bad trader. Every time I get in, it goes to the lows. And you keep telling yourself all these negative things. It's going to create a process. It's going to create a loop, a habit. It's going to create a habit. And then, so I tell people when you're trading and you do get stopped out, you trade your system no matter what it is. I like the strat, so I say the strat, but I get that reversal against me and I get stopped out. The first thing, I'm protecting my capital. Okay? There's a participation group in there that's doing something I'm not aware of. And I thought it was going to go to the highs, but they started selling it. I got out, okay? Stopped me out.

[00:44:11] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:44:11] - Jermaine

One thing I tell people is don't cuss real loud. Don't bang on the desk, don't yell, don't say a bunch of negative things when you get stopped out. Because again, that's going to create a system that's going to create a habit. And now you're creating a habit. So every time you get stopped out, maybe your trading platform has a little sound, like a little tweet or a little sound. You hear that sound, you're like the very first thing you do is say a curse word and you're like power.

[00:44:42] - Agnieszka

Off instinct.

[00:44:42] - Jermaine

Yeah, off instinct. But what if it was a good trade? What if that was the same sound that you pushed your stops up and that's the same sound that it makes when you get stopped out with profit. Right now you're confusing yourself because you're like, oh, I got stopped out. And you say this word and you're like that's what you do when you're mad. But you just made some money on this because of habits, right?

[00:45:08] - Agnieszka

And your body reacts to it emotionally because our mind and our body is connected, right? So when you start cursing, you start also or like, throwing your hands up or keyboard. Some people throw computers out. That's probably not very handy thing to do for the business, but it creates a stress response simply in your body. And then now you have much more work to do to calm yourself down, to be actually able to be objective and to get back into trading. If you are, like, all over the place inside of your head and stressed out and your body is switching on to the survival mode, you can trade in that condition.

[00:46:00] - Jermaine

No, it's too stressed. Yeah, it just feeds can't was it Trading in the Zone with Mark Douglas? I love that book. It's a great book. I'm sure everybody says that, but it's great because he talks about getting stopped out. And if you have all these negative emotions, you got it all built up. You're not looking at what's actually happening right now. You're not looking at this going, okay, I was shorting this, but now it's going to the highs. Your brain is not going, I need to be looking at anything that was taken out yesterday's. Highs. I need to look at stocks that had you know what I mean? There's got to be winners in there. Somebody's buying stocks. Where are they at? You know what I mean? So we can go to I know they were buying energies this morning. I'm using this as an example. I know they're buying energies this morning. Let me go right back to energies. Let me go see what they're buying. You know what I mean? What are they really in? But you can't think that.

[00:46:54] - Agnieszka

So just look for opportunities, basically, instead of ruminating on what just happened and calling yourself a loser and stupid and all kinds of things, right?

[00:47:05] - Jermaine

Let's just say it takes you 20 minutes to calm down. That's 20 minutes of you not seeing any new positions. Now the day is over. Or let's just say stick to the timeline. 20 minutes later, you're seeing where you missed, where you could have got in at. So then the whole cycle starts all over again because you're like, Well, I didn't see these things. And now you know what? Don't.

[00:47:25] - Agnieszka

Right? What's wrong with me?

[00:47:27] - Jermaine

Yeah. Self talk is very important. I tell people to say a little mantra. Rob did create this one, but I kind of pushed the idea of it being a mantra of I create winning positions, add to them, and defend them with tight stops. So that's what I tell people. Say that stuff when you're trading. Because I create winning positions. Okay, I see where I need to get in. Boom, I'm in. And then I add to it. Can I add to this position? We like to scale in? That's what we teach scaling in, and then I defend them with tight stops as the price is moving, people use them, they say trailing stops, but I call them progressive stops, continuously pushing those stops toward the price. And because I like that mantra, creating winning positions, add to them and defend them with tight stops. Because those three phrases turn into questions. They can be questions. Okay, you can look at your charts and go, okay, I create winning positions. Is this a winning position? Is my position positive or negative? You know what I mean?

[00:48:34] - Agnieszka

Very easy to answer, right?

[00:48:35] - Jermaine

Yeah, same thing. Can I add to this? Well, if it's positive, is there any way I can add to this? Yes or no? If it's a loser, no, I'm not adding to this loser. And then I defend it with tight stops. So then the next question is, okay, where are my stops at? If this is a winner, do I need to push it up now or should I just put my stops even? What should I do? Let's look at the charts, and then if it's bad, where are my stops? And if you don't have a stop, there's a bunch of other stuff that you need to be working on. So I like to use that I create winning positions because the trading psychology of the strat is already built into it, you know what I mean? That positiveness of I create winning positions is already there because you're going to have those times when you do get stopped out, and you're going to have those times when it's not I don't want to say losing streak, but you get to a point where you're like, okay, something's not working here.

[00:49:36] - Agnieszka

It might happen.

[00:49:37] - Jermaine

Right, I'm not following the trend.

[00:49:39] - Agnieszka

Yeah, exactly. And most traders do not reach consistency because not of their inability to make money, but the fact they give it back. And most of the time, it's not just the profits they give back, but much more than that. Have you ever experienced it on your own?

[00:49:59] - Jermaine

Yes, yes, I've experienced some drawdowns. I've had a tough trade on CrowdStrike earlier, back in June of this year. And you see all these people on Twitter and being a little vulnerable here, but you see all these people on.

[00:50:17] - Agnieszka

Twitter and they're like, thank you, I appreciate that. That's very important for trader vulnerability. And it's a strength, not weaknesses. A lot of people think.

[00:50:24] - Jermaine

True. I agree. You see all these people talking about made 3000% on this option. I bought this, I bought that making so much money. And I had calls on CrowdStrike. It did hit my target, but I thought to myself, nah, I'm going to keep holding it because of the monthly charts telling me it should go to the highs and I have time on this contract. Well, this thing went a little bit higher on the next day, Friday, and then they started selling it started selling down. Okay, I didn't take profits. Now I know what I'm doing. I'm the strat soldier. I got all these things. I'm doing the stuff and I know what I'm doing. And it continued to trade lower and lower and lower and I had to stop what I'm doing. And I had to get to a point where I'm like is this a winning position? No. Is this a winning position? No. What am I telling everybody else as traders? Cut your losers.

[00:51:25] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:51:25] - Jermaine

You know what I mean? So this is me driving to work. This is me thinking to myself, this is me looking at my position. I'm going, this is not showing any evidence on the weekly, the monthly or the 60 Minutes charts that they want to buy this. They are selling it. And I had to sell it for a loss. Every once in a while you get those little wake up calls. So you have to be able to acknowledge that stuff. And again it all starts with being able to look at what's actually happening and tell yourself the truth. Am I holding a losing position? So yes, I have experienced it. I'm not perfect. I'm not a perfect trader.

[00:52:13] - Agnieszka

I don't think that exists. Right. And I think that's the problem that a lot of traders think that they will at some point be perfect. But I always say to my students, it's like there is no that one day. Then when you get there, then everything is just honey because you will be making mistakes, you will be taking losses, but it will be just very different than it will be more controlled losses and maybe you'll be making mistakes more rare than not every day. Right?

[00:52:47] - Jermaine

Right. At least I would say, you know what's happening, you know? Exactly. Okay, I know I got in this thing I didn't take we call it magnitude, but I didn't take the profit at the target. This thing's going to the lows. It went further than I wanted it to or I thought it would go. But to be able to tell yourself the truth and go this is loser.

[00:53:08] - Agnieszka

Exactly.

[00:53:08] - Jermaine

I need to cut that. That's the difference. I think that's the difference of being.

[00:53:13] - Agnieszka

Honest with yourself, integrity and just minimizing the impact of that by being honest and by stopping yourself in tracks at some point. Because what was the catalyst for you to on that CrowdStrike trade to say, okay, now I have to be honest with myself. How do you know when is that moment to hold them and when to fold them?

[00:53:38] - Jermaine

Yeah, I like it. I like it a lot. For me, I'm going to tell you how it should be and then I'm going to tell you what happened.

[00:53:47] - Agnieszka

All right

[00:53:48] - Jermaine

So again, I look at four different timeframes right now on XLE. So I want to see if there's buyers on the month. Is it green on the month? Okay. And then I'm looking for the week to reconfirm what I'm seeing on the month, and then I'm looking for the daily and the 60 minutes charts to reconfirm what I'm seeing on the week and then the month, of course. So let's just say I got a stock, they're buying it this month. It's going great. Here's my weeks, it's continuing to the highs for you at home. You can look at XLE if you don't know what stock you could even look at right now. You can look at XLE because it's green on the month. It's green on the week right now. And then your days know as the days are reconfirming what we've seen on the week, what we want, an ideal stock, an ideal trade is I'm getting something that there's buyers in the month that I get in a reversal on the week and then continue to buy it all day, every day. And every 60 minutes chart, it's amazing. It goes back to the high.

[00:54:46] - Jermaine

Every day continues the highs, of course, that's the dream, right? But it's not going to happen every day. So as those days trend, are they continuing to move up? Or is the trend slowing down and now they're taking profits? Then you move your stops in a direction. So that's how we do that. That's the ideal way in that crowd strike trade. I had a scenario two on the month, meaning the month was trading higher than the previous month. I did hit my target on the week. I hit my target on the day. And then on the 60 minutes charts here, it starts moving down. I'm like, okay, all right, I can hold through some of this because we know people are taking profits. We know other people. Again, I just said we like to add to our winners. And we know not everybody trades the strat. Some trading systems say always be selling. So we know people are going to here it is. Now they start selling you're like, okay, like I said, I'm the strat soldier. I know they're taking profits on the 60 minutes charts. Okay, fine. Then the daily chart, there's a reversal on the daily, okay, now it's a two two reversal down, meaning the current day was trading lower than the previous day.

[00:56:04] - Jermaine

All right, now we have reversal back down on the daily chart. I got the 60 minutes charts that are red, the daily charts that are red. And then when I finally had to make a decision, like, I have no evidence to keep holding, this was when it started reversing on the week, because now I have again, I'm looking at all four time frames. I got red on the week, red on the day, red on the 60 minutes charts, and they're selling this thing. I need to get out of this. I need to follow my own rules again. I need to follow my rules and go, is this a winning position? And I need to cut this. Thing. Like I said, I ended up selling it for a loss. And it's always important to know when to tell you. I said tell the truth. No, this is a loser. You didn't take profits, whatever. Deal with it. Just cut it. Because if you just keep holding it and you're like, it's going to come back. It's going to come back.

[00:57:00] - Agnieszka

What if it doesn't?

[00:57:02] - Jermaine

Yeah, what if it doesn't? You're like, well, it's an option, you know what I mean? Do you really want to lose all you don't want to lose some people say, Well, I don't care, so I don't want to say that. I want to say you don't ever want to have the mindset of it's okay for me to lose everything in this option, or it's okay for me to lose everything in this stock and for the whole thing to go so negative. You know what I mean? You never want to have that type of mindset, not if your goal is.

[00:57:28] - Agnieszka

To make money anyway, correct?

[00:57:30] - Jermaine

Yeah. Not if your goal is to make money. But I'd say the hardest times when that happens is when things have been going well. Things have been going well. You've had a good run, things have been going well, and you have that one trade that's just not working right, and you don't want to sell it. That's when you have to, like you said, be vulnerable with yourself, be vulnerable with the people that you're trading with and go, okay, I'm in a losing position. I need to cut this thing.

[00:58:00] - Agnieszka

Yeah, thank you for sharing that experience. I really appreciate it. And I think that there is a lot to say about accountability, which is very different in trading, because in our daily life, we always have someone else who holds us accountable for the things we need to do, right? Whether it's in your job, you have colleagues, you have a boss, maybe you have employees at home, you have your wife, you have your children. There's always someone watching you, right? In trading, it's just you and a computer. Nobody's watching you. You can do whatever you want. So now you have to be the person who has to kind of hold yourself accountable and say, come on, what the heck are you doing?

[00:58:43] - Jermaine

Yes, and I wanted to say this earlier, so I'm glad you said that, because in sports, in the military, in any kind of profession, doctor, lawyer, all that stuff, any kind of profession that you have, you have other people that you're working with to achieve a goal, you know what I mean? So even if you're the manager, you need all the people around you to make that stuff happen, and you have to work with them. And you're using a lot of stuff to a lot of your personality, a lot of your skill set, a lot of influence that you have to make things go in a direction that you want especially in the military, I say, get your stuff and get on the truck. You can raise your voice, but at home, you can't do that. Or wherever you're trading, you can yell at the screens all day long, but that price is going to do whatever that price is going to do. So you can't really influence the market so much with your yelling and your personality at all.

[00:59:48] - Agnieszka

Maybe there will be a chance with AI, who knows?

[00:59:52] - Jermaine

I told you to get up there. I told you to keep going up. Okay. Oh, no.

[00:59:59] - Agnieszka

Can you imagine?

[01:00:01] - Jermaine

Oh, that's going to be great. But then the reality of things is it's going to be a lot of people. There will be millions of people screaming in the microphones, and then the market will come right back to what it was before, where it's going to do what it's doing, because we got millions. Me and you see this thing as going to the highs. These other people over here see this thing as going to the lows. So they're selling, and everybody people say the market doesn't care about you and all this other stuff. The market doesn't even know who you are because the market is not a thing. The market exactly. The only responsibility the market has is showing you what the price is right now. That's it. That's the only responsibility. Anybody. You know what I mean? I hope you're paying for real market data for that, because then it doesn't have that either.

[01:00:51] - Agnieszka

Then it's just a game you're playing with the right data.

[01:00:55] - Jermaine

Exactly. All it's doing is showing you what the price is right now. And again, no matter what trading system you use, we are trying to identify the trend and identify it early enough that we can profit from it. That's what we're doing. And we use historical data to do that. Like I said, the spies continue to the highs at 447 16. It's moving. Hammer enforce on the 60 Minutes chart. It's moving up. And if you're still shorting something, you got to be telling the truth. This thing I'm shorting is the thing I'm shorting, is it still going to the lows? No, this thing started moving back up. So that's my whole thing. And in the art of cutting losers, that's what I say, you got to be able to tell the truth. Put your set, your stops, and what's the price actually doing? Is it going against you, or are you trading with the trend? You know what I mean? Even if you're in the trend, is your position good? You know what I mean? Because we talk about that. That's a whole other conversation. You want to talk about bills and all this other stuff.

[01:02:05] - Agnieszka

It's so interesting because we people, human beings, we generally know what's good for us, right? We can figure it out. Like, deep down, you we really know what's good for us. And in a lot of cases, in our life. We do like driving. I mean, most people do obey the rules. Like when they see the red light, they will stop. Well, not always. Where I live, I know Florida is known from really bad driving, but in general, right, we know what's good for us. And for some reason a lot of times we do choose to do the opposite. Like look, for example, diet, right, or not exercising. There's a lot of stuff that we do that are not in our best interest in trading. Making these decisions, whether you choose to act in your best interest or not, can be a little bit tricky because with regard to taking losses, taking a loss does not seem rationally to be in our best interest, just the wood itself, taking a loss, right? So it kind of messes up in our head, our emotions. It messes us up because who wants to take the loss? I don't want to lose, right?

[01:03:24] - Agnieszka

I'm supposed to make money. I don't want to lose. So what is your take on emotions in trading in general? Especially the emotions with regard to cutting losses? Because small loss, it doesn't matter, right? It's like a little cut, no big deal, but when it gets out of hand, it's a different story.

[01:03:43] - Jermaine

I like it. That was good. It kind of makes me like we should have like a think take and come up with a different word than loss. Like the psychology of the word. That's great. I say taking small losses is what we want to do because again, that's when things kind of clicked for me. Taking small losses because we want to protect our capital, we want to keep trading. And if you break the rules, let's say you're driving analogy, you don't really stop at that stop sign. You just kind of pause a little bit and coast on through. Like everything's fine.

[01:04:18] - Agnieszka

Just look around. Is there police?

[01:04:21] - Jermaine

Yeah, there's no police. I don't see a school bus. There's nobody. But what's that one time that you just kind of tap on the brakes on that stop sign and then now you're in a crash, right? You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Because you're like, I didn't see that car because you didn't see that car coming. You didn't see you just thought it was okay to cut this person off. In trading, in driving, I like that driving. In your driving analogy, you can get away with stuff and then by the time somebody catches it, you're gone. It's fine. In trading, there are times, like you said, you're by yourself. There are times you're going to be tempted to do something crazy or just hold on to that losing position and it comes back and you're like, I knew it, but I'd rather you cut that thing. Just tell yourself the truth. I was shorting this. It was great. I need to go ahead and if I'm still in a profit, go ahead and take the profit. Or if this is a loss, I need to go ahead and cut this loser now because it's small.

[01:05:20] - Jermaine

And let's just say the market is going well for this hour, you know what I mean? Or this day, tomorrow it could go right back, like you said, CPI, it could go right back to the lows. I'd rather you cut this thing, don't lose a lot of money. But if it goes right back to the lows tomorrow, you got the capital to get back in. You have also the mental capital. The mental capital to get back in.

[01:05:42] - Agnieszka

That is so important, right?

[01:05:44] - Jermaine

Yeah.

[01:05:45] - Agnieszka

Because how many times when you keep something overnight and in my experience, when I did that, and sometimes I would still do when I think, okay, it was going up, I'm keeping it. But the moment that it opens, okay, it happens. The whole market gapped down. Right. Something happened. And then you're in a completely different spot. Now you cannot look for opportunities. Now you're looking at the open. What am I going to do with this position? Right? What is it going to do? Like, where do I cut it? Because now you're taken by surprise. And in the past, I have to say that when I left and you're talking about the people who stay overnight at the party, the losing position always gets bigger the next day. Always.

[01:06:29] - Jermaine

Yeah, it's worse. Yeah. That person gets up angry. Yeah. They're frustrated about everything. And I agree, too. I was talking to a trader yesterday, having a winning position, and then the entire market gaps down overnight. That's tough. That's tough. That's when you go and you just cut it because it could keep, you know what I mean? Because you don't want to.

[01:06:52] - Agnieszka

There's a reason why market gaps down, right?

[01:06:54] - Jermaine

Yes, there's a reason. And maybe it's something like the whole credit thing on Wednesday was that last Wednesday, the whole credit thing completely changed the market to the downside completely. Everything backed down and everybody was like, what the heck is this? No one saw that coming. Nobody saw that coming. Don't let anybody tell you that they did. And all you could do was just cut your losers and what is the price actually doing now? So, yeah, holding a winner and it gaps down, it's a loser. Just cut it, that's tough. But then holding those losers. Yeah, you're right. Holding those losers and then the whole market gaps down, and now it's even worse.

[01:07:31] - Agnieszka

Right

[01:07:32] - Jermaine

You got two problems. Yeah. You got two problems. You got a capital, you got a losing position, and then you have your like, why do it? Put it exactly. Why did this stupid thing, this stock trades, they make coffee cups. Why did I even buy this thing?

[01:07:50] - Agnieszka

I know, yeah, we can laugh about it now, but when you are in the moment, in the heat of the moment, it's just, like, totally different, right? It just destroys you.

[01:08:02] - Jermaine

You're like this stupid, stupid AI.

[01:08:05] - Agnieszka

I know. Can the AI please fix it?

[01:08:11] - Jermaine

You can't go back either. You can't go back either. Like I said, you go to work. It thinks, hey, don't worry about it, boss. I'll fix this. Don't worry about it. We'll fix it. You can't do that with your chart. You can't go.

[01:08:20] - Agnieszka

You really have to be always responsible. I think it's a lot about responsibility and continuing with this analogy of driving, just imagine when you are deciding to take risk and you are in your car on your own, right? Okay. You might go through the red light and say, okay, I might be lucky. Nothing is going to happen. But you are risking your car. You're risking your life. And if you have a family, you are also risking impact on them, right?

[01:08:51] - Jermaine

Yeah.

[01:08:52] - Agnieszka

So ask yourself, like, if your family now would be in the car, how different would you think? Because when you are trying to make a living trading and make money, it does have impact on everyone else, not just you. And I'm not talking just a financial impact, but when you have a bad day trading and you don't know how to control your emotions, you take that to the dinner table, and everyone knows, your whole family knows it was a red day or it was a green day, right?

[01:09:20] - Jermaine

Yeah, that's true. That's true. And that's where those small losses come in at, because, you know what I mean? It's less of effect on you. I'd rather you just cut it. But yeah, you're right. And I've experienced that as well, and that kind of pushed me more because I had the strat, and then I started, okay, let me learn this trading psychology stuff. That's when that became more apparent and more evident as well, because you're right, and when your trading affects your emotions, that's when, like I said, the cycle. You're happy when you're doing great when you're making money, and you're sad when you're losing money. So then, like I said, it just turns I tell people, Use your emotions. We're emotional beings. We're not robots. We're emotional people. So that means we are emotional traders. We are so don't try and be a robot. Don't just go, well, that was $1,300. Oh, well, no, you need to be going, okay, that's not acceptable. I don't like that. You know what I mean? What am I doing wrong? What do I need to fix? You know what I mean? And then using your emotions while you're trading, you know what I mean?

[01:10:34] - Jermaine

Use them in your best interest is what I'm trying to say. Use them to help you out. You know what I mean? Okay, I got stopped out. It was a small loss. Fine. The market's going back to the highs. I know I can do this. I know where the stocks are. I know what they're buying I'm going to create these winning positions in that, you know what I mean?

[01:10:52] - Agnieszka

Right.

[01:10:53] - Jermaine

It try to do that, but yeah. Okay, so you're driving one more time, but one more thing about the driving, that's another analogy about driving I like to use. Okay, so you're in the car, you're saying, I'm going to work, and you start driving to work, and all of a sudden you look up and you see you're in the wrong lane and you've missed your exit, and you're going in the wrong direction. You absolutely know you're going in the wrong direction, but you look at your gas tank and go, I have a full gas tank. I am not turning around until I'm at a half a tank, and then I'm going to get off and turn back around because then I'm definitely in the wrong. Right? That sounds ridiculous, right?

[01:11:33] - Agnieszka

Ridiculous, if you put it that way.

[01:11:36] - Jermaine

You will never do that. Most people are like, wait a minute, where are you going? Even the people, like you said, it affects your family, the passengers, the kids in the back are like, where are you going, dad, where are you going?

[01:11:50] - Agnieszka

And you go like, I know where I'm going, I know where I'm going.

[01:11:54] - Jermaine

This road is going to take me where I'm going to go. And everybody's in the car is going, no, you don't know. And then you're like, okay, well, I'm going to find an exit and I'm going to get off and I'm pull back around. And then you finally do it.

[01:12:05] - Agnieszka

Right?

[01:12:05] - Jermaine

So using that with your trades, if it's not working and it's going the other direction, get off on an exit, cut that loser and cut that losing position and then go the other way. You know what I mean? Right.

[01:12:19] - Agnieszka

Get in a driver's seat and be responsible.

[01:12:22] - Jermaine

Yeah, this thing's going the other opposite direction. So yeah, you kept saying driving. I kept trying to bring that up, but I fantastic.

[01:12:30] - Agnieszka

You can find so many situations, right?

[01:12:32] - Jermaine

Yeah.

[01:12:33] - Agnieszka

Because in the end, you have to be always, whether it's your life or trading, you have to be in a driver's seat and be responsible.

[01:12:41] - Jermaine

Yes, you said driving, but I like it into running. You can have a pack of people and we're all running in the same direction, run a five K, and you'll know what I'm talking about. Everybody's having a good time, but it's still you against you. It's still a one person sport. Same thing with trading. It's a one person sport. I can tell you, just keep, just stay in there, you're going to do great. There's no reason to get out of this trade. I can coach you as much as I want, and I can say it's going to the highs, but you still haven't hit the button to get in, or you still haven't hit the button to get out because it's a losing position. No matter what I say, it's still the individual person that has to make those decisions. And the same thing with, like I said, running. I'm a runner. We can run in a group, and we can come on, you got this. Only two more miles left. But if that person does not want to run anymore, they're going to stop running. You know what I mean?

[01:13:39] - Agnieszka

Right.

[01:13:39] - Jermaine

And you as a person, you have to have that mindset, that strong trading, that strong psychology that says I can do this.

[01:13:47] - Agnieszka

That brings me to my last question.

[01:13:50] - Jermaine

I talk a lot. My bad.

[01:13:52] - Agnieszka

No, this is fantastic, and I could go forever. Do you think being a soldier did contribute to your success in any way? And if so, which aspect do you think helped you? Do you find yourself being more disciplined than what you see from other traders? Or is this not about the discipline part?

[01:14:11] - Jermaine

I think it's about being more disciplined in the fact that the army definitely tells you when you're doing it right and when you're doing it wrong. There is no ambiguity there's not like, well, no.

[01:14:24] - Agnieszka

Right. So the honesty in feedback, yeah, it's.

[01:14:27] - Jermaine

The pass or fail. Yes, you did good. No, you did not. And to be able to look at my trades and look at something like that and go, yes, I'm doing right. You know what I mean? These are winning positions or these are losers. I need to cut this. That has helped me with that big time. And then the other experiences have helped me in the fact that being able to work with other people, other personalities, work with other people, see how they do it, and then I guess I'm talking more about working in a community of traders. You're like, okay, this is what we need to be looking at. And showing people being in stressful situations helps. I'm trying to bring it back to trading instead of talking about teaching discipline, of knowing if I'm doing it right or if I'm doing it wrong. That has helped me. And in stressful situations in the military have helped me as well, because that's when the training takes over. The training takes over.

[01:15:30] - Agnieszka

Muscle memory.

[01:15:31] - Jermaine

Muscle memory. And the whole we say it all the time. Don't get the FOMO, don't get the AMD is going up. I knew it was going up and I didn't get in. And now she get in. But you don't have an entry in. It is going to the highs. It is going up. You would be trading with a trend, but you don't have an entry into this. You're just buying.

[01:15:52] - Agnieszka

Yeah, you cannot jump on a riding train. Right?

[01:15:54] - Jermaine

Right. That's where the muscle memory of the practice comes in at, and the training takes over. When you have a loss, again, when you have a loss, you have to look at it and tell yourself the truth. And that's when the training comes in and go, okay, this is a loser. Cut it, or this is a winner. Push my stops up. This is good. I need to push my stops somewhere in here so I get stopped out. Profit. Well, I didn't get stopped out. It's still going good. All right, good. Keep your stops there. Add to it. You know what I mean?

[01:16:23] - Agnieszka

Yeah. Finally, it happens, what I wanted. Oh, I can't handle this.

[01:16:26] - Jermaine

Finally, it happens, what I wanted. Yes. All the times of me talking positive, all the times of me studying these entries and where to put my stops. It's finally doing what I needed to do. Awesome. And that's when, like you said, it's heaven and everything's. Butterflies and the reins of owes. Great. And you're in heaven. But even then, you know what I mean, when that trade is over, the process starts over. Yeah, that's the military has helped me with that as well. The process starts over.

[01:17:02] - Agnieszka

Okay, great. And I have to ask this question. I know I said it will be the last one, but you said something that triggered that. You said feedback, whether you fail or you pass. Well, a lot of people have the fear of failing. Have you ever had that? And if you did, what helped you to overcome that? Fear of failure.

[01:17:25] - Jermaine

Yeah, failure.

[01:17:26] - Agnieszka

Failure, because it's very easy. Like, okay, you failed or you passed, but failing, that's a hard thing to bite, right?

[01:17:35] - Jermaine

Yeah, it is. And are you talking about fear and trading or just fear of failing in trading or fear of failing anywhere in any kind of thing?

[01:17:45] - Agnieszka

I think that's the same thing.

[01:17:46] - Jermaine

It is the same.

[01:17:49] - Agnieszka

I think if you don't want to fail in your life in general, as a person, it will come out in trading.

[01:17:56] - Jermaine

Yes, it will. But that's where I put my stops as well, and that's what helps me move with my stops. I don't want to fail what is actually failing and identifying what that is, I think that helps, too. Identifying what that means as failing, I believe continuing to try even though you haven't hit your goal, but you're continuing to try. I think you haven't failed yet. I think when you quit and you 100% say you quit, then you failed. You know what I mean?

[01:18:26] - Agnieszka

Got you. I think that's when you actually quitting is failing.

[01:18:28] - Jermaine

Yeah, I think quitting is failing, but I say that in the context of, okay, I define failing as okay, blowing up my account, that's failing. I never want to blow up my account. So this is a losing position here's. My stops. There's no evidence on these charts that tell me this is to go back in the direction of my favor. I need to cut this thing because I need to protect my capital. If I continuously whittle down my account, I'm going to blow my account up. Then I'll fail. You know what I mean?

[01:19:04] - Agnieszka

You completely switched the perspective. So basically, failing is not like, oh, I didn't make money, but the failing is I failed to protect my money.

[01:19:12] - Jermaine

Yes. I like that. You sum that very well. Failing to protect your capital. And if you're having a losing streak, you have to be able to tell yourself, okay, am I protecting my capital by continuing to try continuing to trade? You know what I mean? Yes or no? You know what I mean? And tell yourself the truth. Okay, well, I don't know what's going on right now, but every time I take these options, they're losers. I don't know what's going on with the market right now. It's hard to identify that they're selling it in the morning, and they're buying in the afternoon. I don't know what's going on. Tell yourself the truth and go, okay, this is what's happening. And take a break. Let your money settle. Let your mind settle. And if your set up opens back up and you're like, okay, this is where I need to be, and you take a small position. Take a small position, and if you get stopped out, it's a small loss. You know what I mean? Small loss. Never be like, oh, here comes 500 contracts.

[01:20:12] - Agnieszka

I'll be rich tomorrow.

[01:20:14] - Jermaine

I'll be rich.

[01:20:15] - Agnieszka

Yes. So taking a break is not failing, and sometimes it's the best thing you can do.

[01:20:21] - Jermaine

Taking a break is not failing. Yes. Taking a loss is not failing. You have to define what failing is to you and then take a break. Take a break if you have to. I don't want to talk too much about it because I want to keep it where you said it. That's good. Take a break.

[01:20:38] - Agnieszka

Awesome. Well, that brings us to the end of the episode and because we have talked a lot about the price where it is right now, and some charts for everyone who is listening. This episode is recorded on August 9, so if you are listening, it somewhere probably in September or so, maybe early October. Don't be surprised if when you look at your chart at that day, that it doesn't make sense, because we are in August right now.

[01:21:10] - Jermaine

Hopefully they're like, wait a minute. It was at 447. This is where I should have got in then.

[01:21:18] - Agnieszka

Right? Maybe we should be doing this episode live.

[01:21:21] - Jermaine

Yeah, that's it. Yes. That's funny. On The Weekend Shift, on my show on The Weekend Shift, I do it every Saturday, and we sum up what we talked about during the week, and sometimes I'll do some set here's, some setups to the downside, and then the very next Saturday, I go, well, that didn't work, but we knew when to get out. We knew when it wasn't enforced anymore. We knew when, okay, the buyers are coming back in or now they're selling whatever it is, and these actionable signals are not in force anymore. So you got to laugh at it. You got to have that humor you do.

[01:21:56] - Agnieszka

So where can people find you? Where can people hear about the strat? And are those shows publicly available for everyone?

[01:22:05] - Jermaine

Yes. So if you go to Sepiagroup.com Sepiagroup.com, that all the episodes are free. If you go to the about section, you'll see Jermaine Recruiter and you click on it and you'll see My Big Old Head, and then you go to the weekend shift. You can even go to videos, and all the videos are there. It's 100% free show for everyone, and we love to do that. So every Saturday we slow the strat down. We talk about what happened in the charts and what we're looking for, for next week. And I usually take some questions, and it's not just all about me. I'm not some superstar. I'm just a guy who likes to talk about The Strat. So I learned from my viewers as well. Some people get in there. I suggest getting in there. Put your email in there, register so you could be in the chat. Because we've had some good conversations on I've had whole shows. I don't say derailed, but we go on a tangent because someone asked a really good question, or someone said, okay, well, what are we looking at? Semiconductors here, let's look at this stock. And I'm like, there's no reason why we need to be in this.

[01:23:09.] - Jermaine

And I'm like, Wait a minute. And it would totally I'm saying it's dissipation. It's a back and forth and it's fun.

[01:23:16] - Agnieszka

Fantastic. I'm going to check it out.

[01:23:17] - Jermaine

Yeah, we have a good time.

[01:23:18] - Agnieszka

You can see me in the next show.

[01:23:22] - Jermaine

It's Saturday at 11:00. A.M Eastern Standard Time. We went from waking up early in the morning to watch cartoons to look at candles on Saturdays. So we went from cartoons to candles on Saturdays.

[01:23:37] - Agnieszka

That's where it came from, because I watched one of the shows there, and you were talking about cartoons, and I was like, what do you mean, cartoons?

[01:23:45] - Jermaine

Yeah, we're just big giant kids that can pay our bills. We're just like we went from watching all these little shows on a Saturday morning to getting up early on Saturday because most people are sleeping over on Saturday mornings. That's where that came in at from cartoons to Candles. And we have a good time. And you also check me out on thestratsoldier.com that's where I do my coaching, one on one coaching sessions. That's why I do my webinars, where I go through the entire trading system, the Strat, I need to come up with some dates for August, but those have good in the past, and those are small group things, too. There are only ten people that can be in those webinars because it's small group instruction. That's what the army made me good at, and that's what I do, small group instruction. That way you get the attention that you need. And I got some courses and a couple of other things in there too, but that's where. You can find me.

[01:24:38] - Agnieszka

That's awesome. And we'll put all the links in the notes from the show so people don't have to remember. Thank you so much Jermaine, for this candid conversation today. I really appreciate you sharing your views and experience. I really enjoyed it and as I said, I could talk to you forever. So who knows, maybe you will be willing to come another time and talk about another topic. And thank you also for your incredible contribution to the trading community. It's absolutely priceless. And thank you for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. Make sure you visit confidenceintrading.com and grab your free copy of my guide with Ten Easy Ways to Improve the Consistency in Your Trading. Thank you so much Jermaine.

[01:25:28] - Jermaine

Thank you so much. Thank you. This was great. Thank you. Thank you.

[01:25:31] - Agnieszka

Wonderful. If you enjoy my show, please support my podcast and leave a review on Apple podcasts and be sure to subscribe so you can come back for a real life conversation in the next episode. Until then, this is Agnieszka Wood from Ahead Coach. And don't forget, you too can realize your dream without losing yourself and your confidence in the process.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/

In the fast-paced and ever-evolving world of trading, success is not solely determined by knowledge and experience, but also by understanding the human element. Today, we embark on a captivating journey into the life of Archimed La Luce (Creed), a remarkable individual who has made a significant impact in the trading industry. From humble beginnings to becoming a Principal Investment Officer at Quasar Markets, Creed's story offers valuable insights into the way of investing, reading the markets, importance of mentorship, continuous learning, and the psychology of traders.

Creed's remarkable journey in the trading industry highlights the importance of the human element in achieving success. From his humble beginnings to co-founding Quasar Markets, Creed's story exemplifies the power of mentorship, continuous learning, and understanding the psychology of traders. By recognizing that trading is not solely about numbers and charts, but also about the emotions and actions of individuals, Creed has made a significant impact in the trading community. Through his endeavors, he strives to empower traders with the necessary tools and insights to thrive in the fast-paced world of trading.

About Archimed (Creed) La Luce

Meet Archimed La Luce, affectionately known as "Creedmoor" in the financial markets. With over 10 years of experience in the industry, Archimed is a seasoned professional who has made his mark as the Principal Investment Officer at Quasar Markets Inc.

Beyond his role at Quasar, Archimed is also the visionary Founder of Nomadic Trading and Consulting, as well as The Copper Umbrella Fund. Through these ventures, he has created a legacy of success, fostering fruitful partnerships and encouraging like-minded experiences for both friends and clients alike.

Archimed's trading expertise spans across all asset classes, and what sets him apart is his deep understanding of human reactionary logic. He approaches trading from a psychological standpoint, recognizing the impact of human emotions on market movements.

What makes Archimed stand out even further is his open-mindedness and willingness to collaborate with new individuals. He is always excited to work with fresh perspectives and forge new connections, embracing the dynamic nature of the financial world.

Archimed La Luce "Creedmoor" is an emblem of wisdom and innovation in the financial markets, and his journey continues to inspire and influence countless professionals in the industry.

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

Contact Archimed La Luce:

• Mobile number: XXX-944-9666
• Quasar: www.quasarmarkets.com
• Consulting/Hedge fund: https://copperumbrella.com/

—

Transcript

[00:00:04.170] - Agnieszka

I am Agnieszka Wood. Welcome to the Confidence in Trading podcast. Let me introduce my special guest on today's show, Creed La Luce. Hi Creed. Welcome to my podcast and thank you so much for making the time for this conversation. I know how busy you are.

[00:00:19.940] - Creed

I want to say, Agnieszka, thank you for having me on the podcast. I look forward to the questions and let's see how this conversation goes. I always love conversations that provoke thought overall.

[00:00:31.630] - Agnieszka

Totally. And that's exactly what this podcast is about and for. So Creed, you have a long list of achievements on your resume, especially considering relatively short time you are walking on this earth, which is really impressive, this whole list. Except for being a trader and trading coach, you do a lot of different things. I see many names on your resume: American Charging Solutions, the Copper Umbrella Fund, Nomadic Trading and Acquisitions. And I'm dying to hear more about all the things you do. I know that your current main role is principal investment officer at Quasar Markets. That's very exciting and I definitely want to hear more about that, especially how recent that initiative is. But the main reason why I'm so excited to have you here is because of one of your recent interviews. I listened to you talked about how to trade and how to perceive the stock market. And you mentioned that you are not trading the price action, but you trade traders psychology. And I thought it was such a fresh perspective and I'm so curious to hear more about it. Welcome to episode number 13, the Human Element in Trading. So, Creed, could you tell us a little bit more about yourself and all the things you're keeping yourself busy with?

[00:02:03.660] - Creed

I'll keep it brief for everyone on here. The thing about it is I came from humble backgrounds on a blue collar aspect of things and got involved with the market after pursuing some other endeavors. And what really led me to this is starting to understand where does the money come from and how does the money work. At the end of the day, we do not get a job because we really like it. You get a job to pay the bills overall. You get a hobby to enjoy things. Now, don't get me wrong, if you enjoy your job, that is another aspect. And like with trading, I eat, sleep and breathe trading. So I do enjoy my job overall, but at the end of the day, we have to pay the bills. And the ideology from it was, well, where is the money? The biggest wealth generator in the world is where the markets, global markets overall. So that's something I started to dive into, asking individuals and gathering something very important that I hope people from listening to this will go and search out, be it for yourself or something else, is mentorship overall. That is something I sought out very early on and starting to be, for lack of a better term, the dumbest.

[00:03:15.560] - Creed

Guy in the room that felt he had to ask 10,000 different questions, but knowing when to shut up and listen and making sure to take notes so I could go back and study the words, the phrases, everything that I heard. Because ladies and gentlemen, we've got to be frank. If someone has been in the markets for 15, 2025 years, they are going to say and do things that you have never been exposed to. It is your responsibility as a good student of the markets and of your mentor to go and do your own due diligence, your own research. Everything you learn is exactly like a trade. You need to do your due diligence on it. After several years of going through the markets, profitable trader. I was with a couple of different communities and I was an educator with the Bullish Bears for five, six years, something of that nature on there. And what I found very important and I would say to traders going through.

[00:04:17.150] - Creed

For this is that you should eventually become a mentor because it keeps you honest, it keeps you accountable to what you're doing. Because as a good human, as a good person, how can you honestly tell somebody to keep a stop loss when you yourself are not even keeping a stop loss? So that is something to keep in mind. After my time as an educator on there, right before the global pandemic that pursued, I had several individuals that asked me, hey, as we're learning to work within the markets, we have capital that we would love for you to work with. I tossed the idea around a little bit, but really wasn't sure if I wanted to manage money for people overall well enough. People said, hey, we'll do this, that and the other. And that's what actually led to the Copper Umbrella now TrailBack the nomadic trading and consulting that was part of the education sphere. Whereas the Copper Umbrella fund was a friends and family fund that was set up exactly for that friends and family. Throughout my career as an educator said, look, I either do not have time or I see that my journey is going to take time. Will you please work this capital for me

[00:05:28.890] - Agnieszka

Just to understand, how old were you when that happened?

[00:05:35.850] - Creed

20, 26, 27, something of that nature. So I guess we'll go ahead and let the cat out of the bag. As of right now, ladies and gentlemen, I am 29 years old and you'll hear everything else and I get it. Before you turn off the podcast, what the heck does this young buck know? Keep in mind that if you spend a decade plus doing a singular thing, trust me, you will learn the ins and out if you are a good student of that thing and desire continued progression. So that is something to keep in mind because I do know people that have been in a single job for ten years and be quite frank, really haven't done much. So that's something to keep in mind is that while age is a good determining factor, it should not be your finite factor on things.

[00:06:29.150] - Agnieszka

It's not just the time. Letting the time pass, but actually using the time to do to put effort into the right thing, right?

[00:06:38.050] - Creed

Agreed. Agreed. And we all have that time and I think that's something very important to keynote on is we all have 24 hours in a day.

[00:06:48.080] - Creed

How we choose to spend those 24 hours both for refreshment labor and education is up to us. So that is something to keep in mind. But anyhow, the fund itself came together, managed that money, still managing that fund overall and then was brought on by another company for an education aspect of things. As they had saw my path they wanted me to help build the community on it. Did that for about a year or so. And now I'm on to two things that were started this year on that the American Charging Solutions which is an EV company which once again most of my endeavors actually come from my friends and clients on there and even sometimes my mentors or mentees. And that charging stations, those charging solutions. People ask me what do you think of EV? What do you think about this? Can I take my money that I've made here and can we move it over here? So once again another business idea is born.

[00:07:46.750] - Creed

But now my big endeavor that is going on which I firmly believe that I am not one to gloat, which I know is technically gloating in its own with that comment but it is going to be the thing that I finally said look, I'm ready to go to the next level. And that was backed up by I didn't just come to that decision on my own. I asked many people that have 20, 30, 35 years in the market at Goldman, JPM, people that matter within the business know just somebody that's here's an idea and that is now that I am the founding investment officer for Quasar Markets. What even is that?

[00:08:32.130] - Agnieszka

That's what I wanted to ask.

[00:08:34.160] - Creed

Quasar Markets was the brainchild of myself and my two other partners on this and we've brought on other partners but it was our brainchild together on this. And what it is is it is the Amazon of finance. What do I mean by that? The Amazon of finance on this is that you as a trader right now, even myself before I had the fund, I had three, four, five screens with where is the flow, where's the order flow, where is my charting, where is my news, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the thing about it is that we have now created something that quite literally does not just bring everything, it brings the true premium of everything into this platform so that the hit of a toggle you are able to add and remove it to your platform. But something that I find is very key. If you connect with one of our educators on there and you go, I really like the way that this individual trades, I don't know, monkey bars, order flow, whatever, will actually have a profile and you're able to select all of the stuff that they have so you know that you're not missing anything.

[00:09:45.180] - Creed

And that's a big thing. Sometimes teachers and I'm guilty of it too. What we'll do is we'll talk in a presumption that somebody knows this well, what we're trying to get out of this is there are no presumptions. We are completely agnostic to everything. All the information is there.

[00:10:01.240] - Creed

Even more so though, what we're providing with this is that as you as a trader create this as a business overall, that business for you is going to allow you to facilitate transactions in the world. If you want to buy a house, if you want to buy gold, if you want to pay for pizza down at the local diner, we have the capability to do that. But even more so, and where I come into things, not just on the educational side that I'm managing, but the funded trader program and the fund management program. Don't get me wrong, if you manage to make 30, 40, 50% in a month or even in a quarter, lock that capital in and make sure you keep your taxes in play with things, but then put that money into something longer overall. And that's where the fund management services come in is it allows people to have that ability to think about your future. We have one of the highest failure rates in any industry. In fact, when I went and looked it up earlier, it's over 92% of people that do short term trading. Short term trading being six months and under on a position has a failure rate of over 92%.

[00:11:13.030] - Creed

We are trying to flip that around with our requirements and you guys can keep an ear out for when we're doing more, but that gives you the high level view. But I will be managing the educational side and the fund investment side that is not just US based, we're global. We already have the handshakes in there. And in fact, I'm working with a wonderful firm out of Estonia there and portion in Germany that they have a beautiful seasonality profile for people who are one of those individuals that just says, you know what, I can't read market psychology or I do not want to learn to read market psychology. I want something that still gives me good gains, but is pretty robust. So we got a lot of fun stuff in the works.

[00:11:57.540] - Agnieszka

Wow, that sounds amazing. And also really very complex. Just looking at that from the perspective. Okay, so I'm a retail trader, right, that is struggling with consistency. At what time frame am I looking at that I can get on that platform and what can I expect? Is this going to help me to trade better? What is this going to do for me?

[00:12:20.290] - Creed

So as an individual, and we really.Have to break this down in the psychology. No one will ever be able to trade better without self input. Quite frankly. I could take an individual, drop them in the middle of Harvard, and if they did not take the time, even though they have all of the opportunity, if they did not take the time to best utilize that opportunity, they will never grow. That's just how that works. Right now for this platform, we will have everything launched, barring complications. We all know how Murphy likes to get with things. We're looking at about 90 days to have this up and running, and we will actually start the fund management services November, but bigger notoriety on it Q one of next year. Now, the best part about this, and I'll say this again, is the mentorship aspect of it. We have partnered with Prosper Trading Jerremy Newsom over at Real Life. We've partnered with ABAC Mundeum Capital, so many other people that it's not just about being able to get money to the trader, but you knowing how to go through the steps and processes of what is the best way to do this. I do not care if you're building a house, a birdhouse, or working at the local grocery store.

[00:13:45.900] - Creed

There is a standard operating procedure within the markets and risk management. And that's what we're aiming to do. If you happen to like Scott or one of the guys over there at Prosper Trading, awesome. You can go through that educational sphere on there and work with them. And then you say, okay, I only have $50,000 of my money and I really do not want to risk my full $50,000.

[00:14:11.180] - Creed

Cool. You're able to come to any of our funded trader programs that you feel comfortable with, be it Jerremy's, be it Scott's over at Prospers, be it mine here at the firm and go, okay, I want to have capital put to this. So you're able to spend $200, $500, a $1000, prove that you learned something through this education, and the only risk capital that you actually have up there is what you paid for the initial test, for lack of a better term.

[00:14:45.680] - Creed

Now, what I advise people to do.

[00:14:48.910] - Creed

In my opinion, is that it is a good idea to set aside what we would consider a one quarter tuition from a local college. What I mean by that here in the US. And in many other countries, you have technical schools and a lot of times those are somewhere between $3,000 to $5,000 for a quarter of information and technology on there. With that being the case, let's break that number down. Let's say you're going to do $5,000.

[00:15:17.220] - Creed

For easy on that. Just good easy number, I would say. Take $2500 to $3,000 of that and spend that money on information and education.

[00:15:28.890] - Creed

The other $2,000, there you go.

[00:15:31.950] - Creed

That's your initial cost for testing or your cost for the books. Oh, but nobody has to pay for testing. Well, yes, you do. Whenever you're getting state licenses or anything like that, you actually do have to pay for testing. So that is a part of everyday life, whether or not people like it.

[00:15:47.490] - Creed

But this day and age, it used to be who was closer to the exchange plus information. Now it is your inherent ability to.

[00:16:03.340] - Creed

Be able to receive, perceive and act upon the information being presented to you. That is why we've designed the platform. How it is designed is so that the only thing that would delay your information is, quite frankly, your Internet speed overall, because we have put in the partnerships in that. Hypothetically, if I don't know, there was a new strain of pandemic coming through the UK. And that news was to hit the global wires, boom, boom.

[00:16:32.690] - Creed

It is to your system how quick you process it and whether or not you're being responsible. My mechanics out there, you know, you're supposed to be wearing your safety glasses. Well, same thing. If you do not have your newsfeed up there, guess what? You're not going to see the news.

[00:16:48.480] - Agnieszka

Right

[00:16:48.840] - Creed

It's just not going to happen. So make sure that you do the due diligence and the prep for it and you'll be able to see that with the educators. There's live trading and all of that.

[00:16:57.560] - Creed

It's one of those things that we are trying to put legitimately trying to put as much material in front of the trader to go, okay, not analysis paralysis. You're actually going to have analysis. Action is what I'm looking for on this.

[00:17:13.760] - Creed

And there's a learning curve. I won't lie to you guys and gals on this one. If you were to sign on right now, in my opinion, to start to feel confident in what you're doing, on average, I think it would take someone around four to seven months to understand the platform, the trade, digest the information, and also get time behind the keyboard. That's the thing.

[00:17:46.560] - Creed

So many people just go, I read a thousand books, let me do it. I'll steal one from Dan Pena on this one. It was I would rather have someone that has had a hundred deals than read a hundred books.

[00:17:58.560] - Creed

Don't get me wrong, you need knowledge. You need books, you need mentors, but you have to actually get into the dust to understand what's going on.

[00:18:08.060] - Agnieszka

Absolutely. Knowing is not the same as knowledge, right. And you do need the action and the experience. That sounds all absolutely so exciting and I cannot wait until that's going to go live so we can all see and experience it. So let's talk about now about you as a trader, because all the things you're doing is very entrepreneurial. Are you more entrepreneur or do you see yourself more as a trader or both? What's the proportion?

[00:18:45.870] - Creed

So that's the funny part overall. Many people that I know that are within the markets, they had a few good wins, but they made their money off of taking those wins and investing them in other things. Startups, they didn't really make it purely from the market on that. Myself, ever since 2000? No, 13. Yeah, 2013, 2014, something of that nature, because it took me about a year to start to be profitable on that. So, as you guys see, I'm on the other side of the four to seven month statistic. It took me about a year. And when I say profitable, I mean paying my bills. I don't mean making $10 a year. I'm talking about you are able to withdraw money from your account and actually pay a bill. And actually, I remember my first bill.

[00:19:44.810] - Creed

It was a light bill when I had just finished university, and that was the big component of it. So myself, I draw my money from the markets. I have other investments, I have other things, but my money comes from the markets because I am purely a trader. And in fact, even right now, not my client accounts, but my personal account on this is probably the least amount of assets I've had in it because I have been distracted with trying to get this platform or not trying actually getting every day I have meetings about every 30 minutes or so getting this platform going. Overall, right now, I think I have.

[00:20:27.450] - Creed

Maybe actually, let me look real quick.

[00:20:30.270] - Creed

I'll tell you, I have nine. I have nine stocks, keep in mind. I have well over an eight figure account. That's the personal account.

[00:20:44.700] - Creed

And wow, that's sad. I really shouldn't have looked at that.

[00:20:49.630] - Creed

But that's the thing. You have to know when to stay out.

[00:20:52.080] - Agnieszka

That's for swing trading, right? Or is that long term investing, that's swing?

[00:20:56.450] - Creed

Okay, so that breaks up another part of it. If I was to look at my. So it is, in my opinion, as a trader, when you're working with this, you have to break down your idea, your trader psychology when it comes into this. And I've always said that you need to have about three to four accounts. You need to have an actively managed account, which is typically your day trading, and any trades that are under three to six months on that, for me, it's anything under three months on there. Now, if you have something that's a longer term idea on things, that's your long term account, that you'll typically only work with that account because you should have automated orders in it. Four to six times a year is the only time you should really touch that account. And you go through and it takes a while to get everything together. The other account that, in my opinion, people should look into is a dividend account. For that, the profits that you make from the day trade account, the short term account, go into either your dividend account or they go into your six month and longer horizon account on there. And I firmly believe everybody should have a 10,15, 20 year account that okay, at the end of each quarter, I take 5%, 10% of net profits and put that into the retirement account overall for that.

[00:22:17.320] - Creed

And there are several different Roths you can put up. And if you want to see a fun one, go look up what's called a backdoor Roth on this, and it allows you to do more than your standard Roth, and you can go down that rabbit hole. But that's the thing, is separate your accounts to meet your goals. Many traders and individuals have a difficulty.

[00:22:40.110] - Creed

With realizing that, okay, where do I want to be in three, five, or ten years?And in my opinion, do not make it finite, make it in the aspect of, I would like to be at this region, this area, and for me to accomplish that, I am going to set and do these things. Because you may hit a hurdle global pandemic, you may take a big hit in an account. You may have, unfortunately, a spousal loss or a friend loss or whatever things happen.

[00:23:14.830] - Creed

So you need to have goals, but you need to know what is a finite goal and what is an amendable goal overall. Because before COVID before even me starting the other hedge fund, I retired. I straight up retired. I said, you know what? I've made my money. I'm good. I can pay myself $50,000 to $100,000 a year, whatever I choose, and just go relax for a while.

[00:23:40.330] - Creed

Well, I did that for about four six months, and then everyone started asking me about the hedge fund, and I realized look

[00:23:45.140] - Agnieszka

The shortest retirement ever.

[00:23:47.850] - Creed

Yeah, retirement is not all it's cracked up to be, trust me. But I'm a little bit jaded in that as well is because while, yes, I came up from a very blue collar to give you ladies and gents, my graduating class was 22 people.

[00:24:02.480] - Creed

So I came up from a very small area to where people do not get to travel as much as I do. But thanks to the generosity of clients and to the fact that I was able to set money to the side, to be able to do is actually even this year and most of last year, I am typically either in a different country or a different region of the US at least one week out of the month, minimum.

[00:24:28.630] - Agnieszka

That's like a dream of many people, right?

[00:24:32.150] - Creed

Well, dreams are like support and resistance levels.

[00:24:39.530] - Creed

The intensity that people will hold them is completely different, and it actually comes down to the individual. I mean, even algorithms have a threshold within them. If you want to see a fun one, go back and look up the Thor algorithm for HFT trading.

[00:24:58.950] - Creed

It was, oh God, mid 90s on there.

[00:25:03.110] - Creed

I may be a little bit off on that date. And it was for UBS. And that's the thing, is those thresholds are different from everyone, so my dreams are different than others. I always joke that the next time I will retire is when I have 500 million in free cash flow. I will give away 450,000,000 of it, take another 50 million, buy an island and then just go away you know, because I like nice things. I have a paddock, I actually just ordered in a McLaren on there because I'm a car guy. For those unaware, one of my university degrees is for automotive restoration, but I'm not going out and doing that all of the time. I believe in goals. I mean, even this watch, this was actually one of my first goals. This is a chorus vertex. It's like 700, $800, but for someone, that is quite literally two weeks pay for some people in the world. So for me at that point in time, this was a big goal overall for me to get.

[00:26:08.620] - Creed

I didn't come from any of that. But now I actually just placed an order for another watch because I have to go to the UN in September. So your goals and dreams should and will change as you advance within your trading career and within any career, trading is just a tool to give you access to other things, be it the money or the knowledge of the markets. You may not be profitable in what you're doing with your trading because you just can't hold a stop loss or whatever, but you're still building your ability for analytics. Guess what, there's 10,000 plus other jobs out there for business analytics, market analytics, et cetera. So you're not wasting time. You may not have made money and you paid tuition to the market, but you learned a valuable skill on analytics.

[00:26:58.300] - Agnieszka

I love that point of view. I'm so curious about your opinion on that. Looking at the very high rate of failure, do you think it's even possible for a retail trader to live just off trading? And I mean, like for majority of people, right? And to become really rich, because paying bills, that's one thing, but I mean really built capital from just day trading, and I'm talking day trading, not the way that you're saying putting aside and investing and just day trading.

[00:27:33.520] - Creed

It's a little bit of a loaded question because first we have to define what is rich. Rich to me is different to rich to other. Rich to me when I started, rich to me now is completely different. I mean, I have numbers in my phone that are heads of state, president, stuff like that, which me just starting out as a trader, come on.

[00:27:54.950] - Creed

Rich to me was, oh man, I'm making $5,000 a month, this is awesome. So it's a matter of perspective yeah.

[00:28:02.350] - Agnieszka

That you can afford, I don't know, going on vacations a few times a year, having a nice car, like financial independence. That's what I mean rich.

[00:28:11.540] - Creed

Would it be fair for us to say what it would take to purchase freedom? Would that be a fair assessment?

[00:28:19.090] - Agnieszka

That's an interesting question.Yeah.

[00:28:20.980] - Creed

So if an individual said that the cost of freedom for them to do what they want, give to what they want, et cetera, is, I don't know $250,000 a year, pretty round number overall. And in fact, that would put you well within the top 3% of income earners of the US. That is not that difficult to do, especially if you keep parameters in play.

[00:28:48.390] - Creed

Creed what do you mean that's not that difficult to do? Well, keep it in perspective. If you have a million dollar account Creed how do I get a million dollar account? Funded trader program. You spend your $3,000, you prove you know what you're doing, blah, blah, blah. You take a million dollar account and you, at no point in time, have more than 1% allocated per trade.

[00:29:13.100] - Creed

Now, that's different from risk, that's full allocation, right? So that means that you're going to have $10,000 allocated to it. You take $10,000 and just use the spy for an example. Right now, the spy statistically, using the ATR average true range or average trading range on a 14 period time frame, lets you know that we on average are making about a 1% move, i.e. $4.

[00:29:38.410] - Creed

So you know you're going to make about $4 of movement in a day at maximum. Now, you know your max allocation. You know your highest probability amount of movement. If I was to buy in at the money, sell a vertical, whatever. Well, right now when we look at I'm actually looking at an spy, and granted, it is Friday, so don't take these numbers to heart. And at the money is going for about 80 cent. Okay?

[00:30:08.710] - Creed

So $0.80 on that. Let's just use a dollar for an easy number on there. Ten contracts will cost you  a $1000. A 100 contracts cost you ten grand on ten grand for every $0.01 movement in the cost of that option is $1,000 profit to you.

[00:30:32.110] - Creed

Now, if we think about this and you think there are roughly 255 trading days in there, let's say your strategy is only 75% effective if you scalp three pennies on an options contract on that account using only the spy, not accounting for anything else, no wheel trades, nothing like that. You've just made about, what, $300,000 a year after taxes.

[00:30:57.230] - Agnieszka

Wow.

[00:30:57.880] - Creed

So it is 100% feasible to purchase freedom, but you will get in your own way.

[00:31:06.600] - Creed

Heck, I'll be quite frank, even with the accomplishments that everyone sees on that, and it's one of those things. I still get in my own way from time to time. And I'm fine with admitting that because my circle of friends around me, if I'm being too humble or too cocky they'll say, hey, step it up or bring it down totally overall. And that's something important.

[00:31:32.990] - Creed

Trading is lonely. The psychology of trading is only because what was it, about three months ago? Two, three months ago, like that? I was doing some zero DTES, and Janet Yellen came out and said something market trashed. Market just sank. In the course of, like, five minutes, we dropped about $5.

[00:31:52.080] - Creed

But guess what? I had a max loss on those zero DTES because by the time my limit order got well, it wasn't a full max loss, but it was a pretty heavy lot. I was doing something like 2000 contracts, so it would have been a total order of 4000 contracts.

[00:32:05.050] - Creed

I lost like 70 or $80,000 in five minutes. Now, be honest, there are not a lot of people that you can go to and go, honey, I lost $70,000 today.

[00:32:18.940] - Creed

I made it up the next two days on it. But could ask yourself sincerely, could you sit down with your friend or your coworker right now and go, man, I just lost 70 grand?

[00:32:28.680] - Creed

No, that's more than a lot of people's three year salary.

[00:32:32.010] - Agnieszka

For those unaware, I had a very similar situation. It was not because the market dropped. It was at the time when I was struggling still, like being silly and not keeping my rules, not putting my stops and hoping for the price to go back that one day. It was pretty intense. I went out after the market closed to a store, and I was coming back and I was walking with my husband and I was completely quiet. And he didn't know it yet, but I knew I want to tell him what just happened. And it happened that there was a Porsche parked, and I looked at the car and I said to him, I could buy this car with the money I just lost. Cash. It was so confronting to me because suddenly there was the money, the value that it's standing right here. And I would have never thought that this could have happened to me, that I would allow that. And that was a very pivotal point to confront myself with that it's like, okay, that's it. That cannot happen anymore. This was absolutely outrageous. So it's a big thing to actually take a lesson from it.

[00:33:47.930] - Agnieszka

And I know a lot of people who have lost a lot of money in the market that way.

[00:33:51.790] - Creed

Is it outlandish to say that it's almost better for someone to take a relatively account big loss early on, so you feel that sting. And actually this is something I do not believe I've shared on any other podcast until now, but about, I'd say about eight months into my journey, I actually became so numb to the wins and losses that I didn't even care.

[00:34:31.830] - Creed

Whether I won or lost on that or let me rephrase that, made a profit. Because won and loss really, it ties a word that doesn't need to be within your trading. But I did not care about the trade. I did not care about that. It was almost like going through the motions of making coffee. And at that point in time, I was still on not the size I put on now, but I was putting on 15, 20,30 contracts at a time. And I think the account was probably somewhere around something around 100, 150, something like that. So you start running those numbers, you go, wow, okay, you lose $5,000 on that account, you've just lost 0.7% of the account or whatever on there.

[00:35:12.100] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:35:12.640] - Creed

So I actually had an instance to where I had to check myself and go, whoa, you just lost the equivalent of being able to take a trip to Jamaica on you, just for lack of better term, you just don't give a darn.

[00:35:29.970] - Creed

Overall, that's a problem. And that's something I have not heard.

[00:35:35.560] - Creed

A lot of other people or in fact anyone of the best minority talk about, is that some traders and some people, our brains get to the point of loss is loss.

[00:35:47.150] - Creed

There's a difference between an educated loss and you're being sloppy and slacking kind of loss, because you may have your stop loss in, you may go through that, but I would say you need to have about 5% to 7% emotion on a loss. And what I mean by that is that that emotion says something didn't happen. I feel a little something on this. I need to go back and look. And for any of my students, for any of my clients, my friends, et cetera, I've always advised in keeping an emotions journal. And I know for the guys out there, don't get me wrong, I've done a whole bunch of other stuff on that you got to keep. Mine own a ranch in Montana. There's not exactly a pansy aspect, but your emotions as a trader on there matter, especially when you're putting on real capital. I mean, I hate to say for those out there, yes, get started with $5,000, $10,000, that's great. But at the end of the market, you got to keep in mind that the markets are over $3 trillion. You could stack just the money from the forex market back and forth to the moon. I think it's something like 25 times or something like that. And that's just one market. That's not everything else. So you need to keep those emotions in check. And that's what I do when I'm trading the psychology of the market.

[00:37:15.470] - Agnieszka

I'm so happy we get to this because I can talk with you forever. I don't know how much patient people have to listen, but this is really so interesting. So, yes, tell me about the trading psychology, trading people and not the price action. What do you mean with that?

[00:37:29.410] - Creed

Yes, that's a term that a friend of mine coined a long time ago for me, actually, back when I was an educator on there. And he goes, So you're really not trading flow. You're trading emotions. You're trading people.

[00:37:45.660] - Creed

I went, yeah, I guess you're right. I guess I'm trading people.

[00:37:48.980] - Creed

And let's conceptualize this for a moment. What is the market? The market is nothing but an auction system, a tool that allows ideas to be facilitated in a solid object, such as money overall. Now, let's try and bring that in.

[00:38:10.270] - Creed

What do I mean by ideas? When a company is going up or down, and be it a commodities contract, a currency, a company, whatever, when it is moving, it is moving off of what? New information. And the people who are looking at that market reacting to that information creed. What about Algos? Guess what? Algos are programmed by people that put in parameters. Even the medallion fund. All those Those algorithms are adjusted with new information that is piped in overall. Some of the smartest minds are on that. But you know what they do? They're making adjustments, human adjustments.

[00:38:49.350] - Creed

Even AI run programs. What is it doing? It is compulating information that humans did. When the Nordstrom Pipeline blew up. Guess what? That was a human action that caused this thing that the AIS, the Algos as well saw.

[00:39:11.480] - Creed

So at the end of the day you cannot remove humans from the market. They may not be the one clicking the button to make the trade, but humans are the ones doing and making.

[00:39:25.640] - Creed

The actions that affect the underlying. So now we know every aspect of the market is affected by humans, even. If it's the weather. For those that say that, guess what? Weather goes bad. Humans are affected. They can't drive stuff. Humans. So when we get to the chart, now.

[00:39:47.630] - Creed

The common term on this, and you can go to the CMT and look this up as well, charted market technicians, not country music, television. You will start to learn about something called supply and demand zones. Now, you'll see this plastered all over 10,000 different videos, et cetera. And I buck the idea of supply and demand zones for essentially one reason. They try to separate what is going on. But keep in mind, for a market to do anything, there has to be a buy and a sell within this.

[00:40:34.080] - Creed

Otherwise, we're still in discovery phase of what's going on. When we reach these nodes, these pockets of supply or pocket of demand, they're the same thing. In fact, if you go and look at any of my videos on this or any of my material, I have written stuff out there. You can go find my PDFs and all that. I call them a business zone. Why? Because at this area, a demand came in for supply at this other area.

[00:41:07.640] - Creed

So as it was coming in and buyers step in, guess what? Supply came to demand. That's the only way that that transaction works, right? So it is a business zone, not a solely a supply zone, solely a demand zone. So now that we have that out of the way, we can start saying. To ourselves, okay, we now know humans affect the market.

[00:41:31.120] - Creed

We now know that these pockets are not separate. They are the same thing overall. The only thing is, is it above current price or below current price support resistance. That remains true.

[00:41:45.250] - Creed

We know that certain people for a fact prefer to only trade technology, biopharmaceutical, industrials. So you have a certain ideology in that market. Typically if someone grew up in rural. Idaho, what are they probably going to trade?

[00:42:06.080] - Creed

They're probably going to trade something around the agriculture section or they're going to trade something around technology. For those unaware, Idaho has a lot of technology in it. It's just kind of out there, a lot of servers.

[00:42:15.460] - Creed

But I digress, if you know that. That particular participant is in that background, that type of a previous education, that type of an ideology, then you're able to disseminate that.

[00:42:31.320] - Creed

Okay, these people have typically this type. Of a risk tolerance overall. So if we know that the people trading Caterpillar tend to be much more skittish from very volatile things, what's going to happen?

[00:42:51.580] - Creed

You're going to have a low ATR average true range. It is going to take more participation to break a resistance and it is going to be a better buying opportunity at support. So in typical as price descends down from, let's say the first of the month and gets to that lower business zone, what's going to happen? Oh my God, it's at a discount because I'm buying this for a long term move. Caterpillar is typically used for a dividend. Play on thing long term stop. So you now understand that participant, let's break it down again.

[00:43:29.240] - Creed

You know the humans that are doing it, you know how they're doing it, you know the way that they act and move within the market. So you as a trader staying agnostic to everything that's going on can go.

[00:43:44.470] - Creed

Okay, I know that these people in this market act in this way.

[00:43:50.650] - Creed

If on Apple I need 100,000 trades to break a resistance, okay, that's something where there's more volatility. But in Caterpillar I may need 200, 300, 400,000 and you're actually able to go back and see what the typical volume break is, find the average of what that is. There you go.

[00:44:13.780] - Creed

Now you have a number you can work with and say, okay, if I see more than 100,000 transactions at this area, so if it starts building up, 60, 70, 80, oh man, we're getting to that area, I should prepare to look for a break again. I'm a confirmation trader, not a presumption trader. I've presumed enough things in my life that have usually end up getting me burnt. I'll sacrifice the extra 10-15 cents.

[00:44:41.460] - Creed

Did they break it? That's just my thing. And once you see that volume building up and it confirms a break out of that resistance or support is holding. You're going to say, okay, the mentality of the participants has now stated that. At this business zone there is enough.

[00:45:03.440] - Creed

Participation and demand that they are willing to pay above this standard business price. Right in here. Example of that is if anyone has ever went for a limited edition, I'm going to be funny Beanie Baby furby, whatever, and they cost you $20. But all of a sudden you can no longer find your sky blue furby. Guess what? Instead of it only being $20, it's going to be 25, 27, 30.

[00:45:32.970] - Creed

Same with this. There is a finite amount of people willing to participate at any given time. That is a finite number. More people can come in, but there are only so many people in the market at that given time. So it's not like you can really. Work with a lot of that.

[00:45:53.670] - Creed

But you can see that. This number of people coming in has stated we are willing to pay more. What I like to look for is a standard breakout retest and it is why I utilize a specific candle called a Heiken Ashi candle on there HA candles for some other platforms. The HA candle is formulated through a sense of averages overall, as I discussed earlier on this. We have an abundance of individuals willing to pay more above this standard area. What I look for in the candles when I'm working for this is 60% or greater of the body of that candle, regardless of time frame. This works across any time frame, which surprised me, to be frank, when I started running the studies on it.

[00:46:45.240] - Creed

60% or greater of the participants have stated, yes, our average price will be above this standard. If true, what does that tell you? A majority of participants are willing to pay more so they break out.

[00:47:03.910] - Creed

We tend to see a little bit of a retest to the downside as people start to say, are you sure you want to pay more? Are you positive? Yes, darn it, I want more. Give me as much as I can have on this. The average continues to push on there. As the average pushes, you start to get that FOMO into this for all the people that were down here that said we are going to do the break, then you have the test. I like to look for a candle break or I'm sorry, a break of the high of the candle that broke the business zone.

[00:47:40.170] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:47:40.580] - Creed

If that average is above that line. There, guess what, not all but a majority of the participants that stated, yes, we believe that there is more value to be had up here, so we are willing to take the risk of a purchase. Now in the idea that we can. Sell for more here, that's not me saying it. That's not me being looking at the market and form fitting data that is the True Blue transactions have stated, yes, we're willing to do this. The transactions that move within the market are direct representation of the humans, the idea, the psychology of the market. So I could care less if Apple comes out with the Vision Pro 37.

[00:48:28.610] - Creed

I could really care less because I'm able to see does the money of the market care?

[00:48:36.360] - Creed

I don't care if President XYZ Setter did this.

[00:48:40.650] - Creed

Does the money in the market care?

[00:48:43.660] - Creed

Because I trade a good account. I'm not trading a $7 trillion account, okay. I'm not trading the economy of Botswana. So you do not have the weight to really change that idea. Now, if you're running with Penny stocks and I actually did manage to do this with zero DTES on Spy one time because I fat fingered an order and I had something like I think it was like twelve or 13,000 contracts per side on there. You guys and Gals can go run the exposure on that one. I didn't mean to do it and I flipped it out really quick. It was a bad trade. I made money, but it was a bad trade overall, I digress.

[00:49:26.930] - Creed

You are not going to move the ideas of the market.

[00:49:29.880] - Creed

And if you can move the ideas of the market, you're not going to be on it.

[00:49:34.410] - Creed

Like, for myself, I cap myself at 25 million on an account. That's what I cap myself on on there. I've noticed that as I trade and do other things, I working with everything do not feel comfortable trading anything over that at any single point in time.

[00:49:50.160] - Creed

Overall, I know guys that trade larger accounts so that's the thing.

[00:49:54.910] - Agnieszka

Let me ask you about that. How did you build that immunity? Because a lot of traders don't have large accounts like that, right? And the process of sizing up requires building an immunity to your risk tolerance, right? How did you started build your risk tolerance? For example, let's say at the beginning, maybe you were risking, I don't know, $100 per trade, then maybe $1,000. And do you still remember how that process went or were you just like, I'm not thinking about that and doesn't do anything to me.

[00:50:34.380] - Creed

So this is the formula I use to build my account and what I've taught actually no. Now it's probably thousands of people, now that I really think about it, to build theirs and it's a metric that seems kind of odd because the words I use and you may have to slow down replay this part, but just bear with me. So let's say you're starting with a $10,000 account on there.

[00:51:03.810] - Creed

Realistically to see any type of progress that is appreciationable. Let's say you've already built a little bit. You've got your indicators, you got that, but you still got a 10K account.

[00:51:13.480] - Creed

Okay?

[00:51:13.750] - Creed

We're talking risk management here, right?

[00:51:15.980] - Creed

You would never allocate anything more than 10% of the account value to any singular trade so we would have $1,000. Creed why would you only allocate 10% when you have 10,000 to work with? Because anything can happen, especially in this market. So if that position you put on for whatever news comes out, you become unaccountable to what you're doing. Whatever, you take a total loss you only lost one 10th of the account.

[00:51:48.260] - Creed

And in this economy, $1,000 is $1,000. Don't get me wrong, I still argue over a $4 cup of coffee. But the thing about it is you can come back from $1,000 loss. It may take you a couple of weeks, but you can come back from $1,000 loss. Now, amongst that allocation, you're able to figure out your trading metrics, okay, I have $1,000 I can work with. With that $1,000, I'm expecting a $4 move in the market. My options cost is $2. i.e.I can purchase five contracts overall. Within that five contracts, I am willing to risk down to this level or above or take profit at this level.

[00:52:37.190] - Creed

And that's why for books and for lack of a better term, BS Media, the idea of, oh, we had a one to three or a one to six, I have almost never I had.

[00:52:50.810] - Creed

One trade on ReWalk that was actually a pure one to three. It's always like one to 2.7, one to 2.9, one to all this and trying to form fit a one to two, a one to three, anything like. That just doesn't work because we are in a market of finite numbers. 2.5437 is 2.5437 all day long, regardless of what it is. If you said, hey, I'm going to put a limit order into the market and get in at 250, your order fills at 249.98.

[00:53:27.000] - Creed

Guess what? You are wrong.

[00:53:28.800] - Creed

You did not get in at 250. It's not by much. Don't get me wrong. Yes, it is a nuance. But when we're looking at those numbers of I have a strict one to three, it doesn't work because that puts a finite in it.

[00:53:41.500] - Creed

What I do to change that up and to help build that account up is I go, okay, I have my $4 range to work with on here. My next resistance level, my confirmed resistance level is one dollars up. Oh, wait a second.

[00:53:58.080] - Creed

My next support level is a $1.50 down. Something's not right on this.

[00:54:06.880] - Creed

What I'm going to do is I'm going to wait for my 60% or better print above that resistance level because what happens now, okay, my second resistance can be dollar up, $2 up. But if I'm at a neutral area here now I set my stop at open. I have that one dollars move up on here. I've only got one dollars risk, true risk right in here, whereas I have another dollar and a half $2 move up, whatever that actual resistance is. And inverse, if you're shorting. So that's how you can do that.

[00:54:44.320] - Creed

Now, as you have those gains in your account, you go from 10,000 to12,000, you remove one percentage point. What I mean by that 10,000 – 10% is 1000. 9% of 12,000 is roughly 1000, 14,000 – 8%.

[00:55:08.340] - Creed

Continuing, continuing, continue until you're at PDT on there to, at which point, in my opinion, allocating anything more than 5% of account for a new trader and even an intermediate trader, there's no point to allocate anything more than five. Because once you get to PDT now you can start doing a bunch of day trades and you really need to hold that risk metric in there so you don't end up below PDT.

[00:55:35.550] - Creed

After 25,000, I stopped and stop whenever I'm teaching people on that, removing any percentage on it, because 5% of 50,000 is different from 5% of 25,000. So you're still growing how much you're allocating and working with, but the emotions attached to that are still the same.

[00:56:01.330] - Creed

And also I almost never look at my account.

[00:56:05.540] - Creed

In fact, pretty much the only time I ever see any account values on things are when I see my taxes at the end of the year, something like that. And that's the thing to keep in mind is even then I really don't look at it unless I get a margin call for XYZ reason on things. Like, I had a pretty big position on soybean a while back in one of my accounts, and soybean tanked.

[00:56:27.310] - Creed

It didn't do what it was supposed to do on there. And I ended up getting a small call on that because it was with a starter account. And I went, that's different I didn't even know the account was near anything like that.

[00:56:38.510] - Creed

So what happened? All right, send the money over, close the trade out, send the money over. Get over it, things happen.

[00:56:42.960] - Creed

And when you're using that type of a risk metric, it just really helps you accelerate things. Something that I would say to keep in mind though, is that to give you the best chance, once again, remove anything that has to deal with a notional value, convert it to percentages points, ticks, anything like that. And then even when you're journaling and keeping track of things, remove any aspect of money. Because as I was joking earlier, yes, I'll still complain over a $4 cup of coffee, but when you see that dollar sign, that pound sign, et cetera, it talks to our lizard brain and says, hey, you've made or lost this amount. And more people statistically have a problem with loss, and you generate more energy in your emotions from loss than you actually do in gains. And I think that's something really unique. So if you can remove as much as you can as a notional everyday reminder from your platform, your journaling, all you're doing is saying, okay, I'm just adding points to what I'm doing on this. I started the day with 5000 points, okay? The gamification of what I'm doing on this, and don't get me wrong. Trading is not a game. But think of it in that manner. At the end of the day, with everything I did, I'm now up to 5200 points. Or you know what, I got hit with a Whammy and now I'm down to 48 35.

[00:58:19.890] - Creed

And you say it in points, as we say with Affirmations and everything else.

[00:58:24.520] - Creed

As you say, so it shall be. Well, if you continue to think in that manner, yes, eventually you have to look at a number on things as far as a cash value, but while you're trading journaling all that, convert it into the points, percentages.

[00:58:39.870] - Creed

Because why add another emotional headache to this already very difficult thing that we're doing? I mean, as we said before, we got over a 90% failure rate on things, so why add that hassle? But that's the long way of saying how I did it and how I developed it and how I continue to do it. Because there's a very big difference in moving and working 10,000, 50,000, even $100,000 to when you get to the seven, eight, nine figure game on things.

[00:59:18.980] - Creed

Or let me rephrase that job not game job. There is because you start to reach an aspect to where you physically cannot allocate any more money to a trade. Otherwise you become the market. If you only have 100,000 people with ten shares apiece on there, guess what? You got a million shares.

[00:59:44.550] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:59:44.880] - Creed

Cool.

[00:59:45.260] - Creed

If you decide to put in an order for 25% of that float overall, you're the big shark. Who are you selling to? Who are you going to be able to sell to? And you sure as heck are not going to be able to sell that whole thing at one point in time. So this is where you start to balance out and you start to go.

[01:00:07.090] - Creed

Okay, well, I've got a seven figure account. I only like to trade ten specific stocks. Each one of those things allows me.To only allocate, I don't know, 10,000 shares and 50 covered options on there.

[01:00:20.570] - Creed

Okay, you now know your basket. The good part about that though is that you can now average and get an expectation of if I know I have a 70% success ratio and this is my typical size overall, you can actually extrapolate out to give yourself the best bet of okay, I think I will make a million dollars this year.

[01:00:40.690] - Creed

At 70% success rate.

[01:00:42.640] - Creed

Man, for me to purchase Freedom, I need 2 million. I need 3 million. So what do you got to do? You got to go find another market. Well, because you have now created the strategy and honed in on your analytics. A person is a person. A trade is a trade. If you are trading a REIT or if you're going to purchase a house.

[01:01:08.710] - Creed

Guess what you got to do? Where's the resistance? I.e. what's the lowest point the buyer is willing to go on that house?

[01:01:14.660] - Agnieszka

Right

[01:01:15.080] - Creed

Where's the support base minimum.

[01:01:17.340] - Creed

So you take your skills that you learned over here, apply it to another market and start creating your other streams of income to go with it. The only thing I would advise against and this is just my own personal opinion on there, is if you are going to be a mentor and you can show and back and do everything you're going to do, charge more than $99 an hour. Because I really messed that up and that was my cost for those unaware.

[01:01:43.580] - Creed

When I went because I wanted to give everything that I could overall. But there was a cost. I only at one point in time charged $99 for my information and an hour of my time. I'm at a point now that I quite frankly cannot do.

[01:02:05.930] - Creed

That the value of the information and the amount of time or value that people are willing to put into it is directly correlated to how much that you cost. And I'm not about trying to make the money. I'm trying to make fact of, okay, you did such a good cost input on this that you're actually going to find value and succeed at what you're doing. And that's what I want more. I want more success stories from my students and I hate to say it.

[01:02:40.640] - Creed

But you do have to have a barrier of entry. Someone that is not willing to commit to what's happening. Don't get me wrong, you can trade the market as a hobby, as a game, binary options, stuff like that.

[01:02:53.820] - Creed

But if you're serious about wanting to purchase freedom then you have to make a commitment and you have to find good mentors. That is a non negotiable on there.

[01:03:08.160] - Creed

You have to stay committed and the time frame is different. The fastest I've ever seen anybody go from zero to hero was about two and a half, three months. And this is just someone that was a freak of nature and went, I'm trading one thing, only one thing and I'm always going to be looking at it when I get off of work. Okay, well guess what? Their 10,000 hours went to one thing very quickly because they weren't bouncing around.

[01:03:29.890] - Creed

They said it was a MACD. Yeah, they used a MACD and Heiken Ashi's and they only focused I think it was Apple, it was either Apple or amazon and that was the only thing. So think about it, that individual they're not hopping to different symbols, they're not changing indicators, they're not going through and looking at guru X, Y and Z. So you get two or three months on there. You've got let's say on the average 2000 hours on one stop, right? And one set of yeah, you're going.

[01:04:00.860] - Creed

To have some success. I'd be surprised if you did that's right overall on there. That's the long gambit about it and that's how I look at things when I'm trading people and understanding the participant of the market and it's difficult. On average I will trade about three to five equities at one point in time. I will put ES and SPX Nasdaq and QQQ whenever I'm trading those futures. I can also then have a trade initiated on the underlying because like we said before, you may only be able to put so much money into one specific thing. Well, if you know the Es, the SPX and the Spy move with each other, congratulations. They all run in correlation. So now you're able to devote three X capital. So you're not becoming the market, but you're still taking advantage of the same move. You can go and see this through many different things. Don't get in the bonds to begin with. I'll just be straight with that. In my firm opinion, you need to understand a regular market and quite frankly understand the options market itself and how to trade the options market before you get into bonds.

[01:05:12.090] - Creed

Because, and I know I'm going to get crucified for this one, but bonds are a much more sophisticated option is what they are. When you really break down the idea of them on a 10,000 foot overview, they really are just a much more sophisticated option. So avoid bonds to begin with. Once you understand terminology, you got some time in, you're showing a little bit of profit on stuff, then hop over the bonds because that opens up a whole nother thing that we can talk about later on on stuff.

[01:05:41.760] - Agnieszka

So the question on that not on the bonds, but options or stocks for someone who is still trying to build consistency.

[01:05:48.990] - Creed

How big is the account?

[01:05:52.840] - Agnieszka

On average let's say above the 25 so that you can actually day trade for day trader. Well, because that's the reason a lot of traders would go for options because they don't have such a big account, right? But imagine you do have it and you have the choice.

[01:06:10.550] - Creed

Standard leverage for a lot of accounts is two to three X. So you have 25,000 in cash. They're going to allow you 50 to 75,000 in purchase of stock.

[01:06:20.710] - Creed

So with that being the case, in my opinion and that's firmly what it is, if it is under $15, just do the stock because most of the time the options have no flow. Yeah, you get a little bit on NEO and sometimes you get stuff on Ford, et cetera.

[01:06:40.460] - Creed

But as a totality of stuff, if it's under $10-$15, just stick to doing the stock.

[01:06:47.670] - Creed

If it's over that and you start to see the flow of the options to actually have some good volume and that is dependent on each individual overall. And keep in mind, open interest is not volume. That's a big thing with options. Open interest just means the order is out there. Doesn't mean anybody's actually transacting with stuff.

[01:07:08.760] - Creed

So if it's over $15, there is good order flow within the volume, then yeah, go to options. Why not? As long as you're not seeing something like, okay, for the totality of the day, there were 400 options. So tomorrow I'm going to buy and at the money, and I'm going to buy 100 of them. No, I'm not going to become a quarter of the market overall. I might buy ten and look for a move on there five to ten. So now you have the issue of okay, well, I can only allocate five to ten on this. So you bring that up, you have it over in the window.

[01:07:42.010] - Creed

Automate your orders. It's the biggest thing. Automate your orders and then you can go, okay, well, I've devoted my capital to here. Let me go over this stock over here. So work in an area of prioritization. You can leverage your money better with options both ways, profit and loss. Keep that in mind. With stock, you're not at as much exposure as you are with the option and you can hold on to that stock. Whereas with the option, it has an expiration overall.

[01:08:17.430] - Creed

So I'm not saying to be a bag holder, but when you buy stock, you're also buying a little bit more time to maybe you missed an analysis or maybe there is a report coming out keep that in mind.

[01:08:30.260] - Creed

So if you wanted a nice hybrid covered calls, you get stock and you can work options.

[01:08:37.140] - Creed

That's actually a friend of mine, Jeremy Veerland. He puts one through there and he does a modified will strategy. And I've ran that strategy and eventually end up at net zero on your shares if you do everything right and takes a while, don't get me wrong, it takes like two, three months to end up hitting that but think about that. You purchased your shares and you saw that, let's say it's Ford. You purchased your shares, 100 shares here, and you have that option strategy, and you're just selling calls and puts both sides as you make that profit on there because Ford tends to stay in this range. Cool.

[01:09:07.170] - Creed

You're making $50, $100 per $100 on here, and it cost you $1,000.

[01:09:12.720] - Creed

By the time you have ten trades done, you're at a net zero on what this cost you. And you still have this to rent out for those covered calls. But you also own the stock, and it will pay you a dividend right later on. So now you made one transaction to buy the shares, but you're leveraging those shares three different ways. Covered call, cash, secured put, and then a dividend payment if it is a dividend stock. So there's a whole bunch of different ways to do that. So I guess it depends.

[01:09:46.630] - Agnieszka

Creed, we can go on and on. But knowing how busy you are, how much time I have taken already of yours. I am so grateful that you really were able to allocate this time for me and for my listeners because you have just given so much wisdom and so much knowledge and so many great not just tips, but really the way to how to see the market, how to set yourself up for success. This was wonderful. I want to ask you, can you point people in the direction where they can either read something from you or get more information or I don't know, you probably have a YouTube channel?

[01:10:29.560] - Creed

So, I do not have a YouTube channel right now, but you can find a lot of my old videos on Bullish, Bears, Money.Net, Anne Marie. I did a podcast with her as well. But honestly, I'm an open book, so you can find me over on Twitter. And if you want to get a hold of me for whatever reason, you want to talk about mentorship, you want to talk about getting with me on a deal to do either in the hedge fund or real estate stuff, whatever, I'm an open book. If I don't respond instantly, well, you guys kind of understand why, because, hey, I still got to trade. I got two Belgian Malinois. They ate me out of house and home. But you can find me on Twitter. That's the easiest place. And all of my website links and all of that are around Twitter. So nomadictrading.com. I'll do a fun one. I'll do a fun one, too, because I am who I am. And if you do enough research about me, you'll be able to find this.

[01:11:24.940] - Creed

So I will give the last seven digits of my cell phone number on this. You have to figure out the area code. Okay,

[01:11:36.670] - Agnieszka

I'm going to write it down.

[01:11:39.630] - Creed

The last seven 944-9666. Okay.

[01:11:46.240] - Agnieszka

Okay. So I'm going to post this number also under the episode in the notes so that people can figure it out, and then they can send you an SMS if they have a question.

[01:11:56.060] - Creed

And what I do, I have clients, I have friends, and that number is out in the ether, so it is possible to find it. But if I don't respond to you instantly, keep it in mind. I get a lot of different messages on stuff, but I am happy to speak with individuals. If you're serious, if you're wasting time, I'll block you. I'll just be straight with it. But if you're serious about things and you really want to have a real conversation, don't be afraid to reach out to me. I'm happy, and as I travel, I meet people all the time.

[01:12:29.810] - Agnieszka

Fantastic.

[01:12:30.490] - Creed

Happy to do that.

[01:12:31.320] - Agnieszka

Well, that brings us to the end of this episode, and I hope that this will help many traders who are listening to get some good perspective and also kind of look at their own way of how they perceive the market and how different you can do it. For me, listening to you was really eye opening that you cannot just focus on one thing, right, that everything is really connected to each other, and you have to see the broader picture of financing and really money management because you can be a good trader. But when you make that money, you have to know what to do with it in order to multiply it and to keep investing and having that broader perspective, broader view on things. And I really like the tip that you gave about talking about the money in points, right? That is just, I think, one little trick for your mind that will help you to disconnect a little bit better from that money value that a lot of traders associate with their own value and self worth.Thank you very much for that.

[01:13:57.560] - Agnieszka

So thank you again for joining us for this real conversation today. I really, really appreciate you sharing your insights and this very refreshing point of view on trading, trading psychology and human behavior. And thank you everyone for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. Make sure you visit confidenceintrading.com and grab your free copy of the Consistency guides with ten easy ways to improve your trading. If you enjoy my show, please review it and rate it on Apple podcast. And be sure to subscribe so you can come back for a real life conversation in the next episode. Thank you Creed for joining.

[01:14:44.750] - Creed

Thank you for having me on the podcast. And everyone make sure to subscribe. She's doing great work and I appreciate you opening the floor for me on this.

[01:14:54.200] - Agnieszka

Thank you, Creed. Until then, this is Agnieszka Wood from Ahead Coach. And don't forget, you too can realize your dream without losing yourself and your confidence in the process.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/

In this episode Gary Portugal and Agnieszka have a discussion sparked by a tweet of a very seasoned investor and portfolio manager Jason Shapiro, who recently posted that not trading is actually a trade in itself. This thought brought the inspiration to talk about how to do nothing in trading. Many traders have difficulty staying away from the market and cannot resist the constant flow of opportunities. It is not easy to stay away from action, because we're programmed to think that we must act. Especially if we want to achieve our goals. 

With decades of experience in trading and working for large financial institutions, we hear Gary share the valuable lessons he learned and his philosophy on doing nothing. One of the things he points out as a reason for the need to act is equating trading and having risk on, in the markets, with working hard. Almost as if not trading means cheating. It is key for every trader, especially if you trade for a living that you don't have to trade every day.

About Gary Portugal

Gary Portugal began his FX journey in New York in the 1980s as a spot G10 Market Maker, before specializing in European Monetary System currencies in the 90s. After the creation of the Euro in 1999, he transitioned to trading emerging market currencies and to developing a spot FX e-commerce business at a major financial institution in London. He then spent a decade at a proprietary trading group as a market-maker in emerging market currencies to various electronic currency networks. He now trades and invests independently across all asset classes.

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

Contact Gary Portugal:

• LinkedIn: Gary Portugal

—

Transcript

[00:00:00] - Agnieszka

I'm Agnieszka Wood and on today's show I am very excited to introduce my very special guest, Gary Portugal. And maybe you remember Gary already from previous episode. He was here a few weeks ago and we were talking about trading for a Living, which by the way, became so far our most popular episode. So if you haven't heard it yet, I highly recommend it. It's the Episode 3 Trading for a Living. Gary has been a professional trader for 35 years and he's still trading now, just not as a professional, but sort of because he's trading for a living. So not for anyone else, but for himself. And Gary is joining us today to talk about the topic that is really hot for every single trader. And it was very spontaneously sparked that conversation that I thought this will be so valuable for everyone. So let's start. And Gary, welcome to episode number twelve: How do you do nothing? Hi Gary, welcome to my podcast.

[00:01:15] - Gary

Hi Agnieszka, thank you so much for having me again. Pleasure to be with you. I guess I'll start by just saying what, as you mentioned, what would have sparked us to have a discussion today, which was a tweet by an investor, very seasoned investor, and portfolio manager by the name of Jason Shapiro, who he has a website that focuses on basically trying to find when markets become too crowded. So he basically measures extremes in market sentiment. Anyway, he recently posted a tweet in which he stated that, quote, unquote, not trading is actually a trade in itself. And when I saw that, it really resonated with me. And it also made me think of contacting you again because I thought it would make for a good topic of conversation. And the bit that he added to the tweet was he said it's better to miss a trade than to take a trade that you're not supposed to take and end up losing money on it. And again, that really resonated with me. I've thought that many times and in my own head, I mean probably hundreds, if not thousands of times over all the years I've been in the market.

[00:02:51] - Gary

And to see somebody actually put those words out in public on a tweet, it really woke me up.

[00:02:59] - Agnieszka

Basically, it's such a powerful thing to realize, right, that whether it's in trading or in life, really, that we don't always have to do something. I think this has a lot to do with having control, that we want to control things and that gives us this urge and need to act. And this is how we grow up, most of us anyway, that if you want to achieve something, you have to put a lot of efforts, you have to do a lot of doing in order to get somewhere, right, to become someone in trading that is bringing you in trouble.

[00:03:39] - Gary

Many times this feeling of the need to act as opposed to doing nothing, whereas sometimes like silence. Sometimes not acting actually is an action, but it goes against what we're taught. We're programmed to think that we must act, we must talk.

[00:03:57] - Agnieszka

Right?

[00:03:58] - Gary

We must not be silent. We must not fail to act.

[00:04:01] - Agnieszka

Right. Because how do you do nothing? How do you not act right? I always get that question from my students because in my program, I have this whole module about letting the control go and letting things happen. So basically letting it go. And then how do you let go of that control? Especially over things that you cannot control, like the market? So the question that I get is, but how do you do that? How do you do nothing? You don't. That's the whole point. You don't do anything. So you don't do doing. You just don't do it. Does that make sense? It's like, how do you do nothing? Like even your private life, you just sit there, you relax, and you let things happen for you. Right? You are more in that observer role, right? Yeah.

[00:05:02] - Gary

That's a really good way of phrasing it. I think there are times when it's perfectly okay to just watch as opposed to do. I think the time to do is when you have a very high level of confidence in something, whether it's trading or any other aspect of your life, when you have a high level of conviction. And if you don't, at a given moment in time have that high level of conviction, why pretend that you do? In other words, why trade on a daily basis when nobody's putting a gun to your head and forcing you to do that? And I think that we feel the need to, as you would say, act every day or trade every day. And I think that's one of the first things that anybody trying to trade either for a living or professionally whatever, has to address this concept and come to grips with.

[00:06:02] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:06:02] - Gary

And try to accept that, no, you don't have to trade every day. That is not a rule. You're not going to get put in prison if you don't trade well, you.

[00:06:15] - Agnieszka

Put yourself in prison sort of because you put that pressure on yourself. And what if then there is no trade?

[00:06:23] - Gary

I think there are so many reasons that contribute to people feeling that need to trade every day. Almost as if maybe people feel that if they're not trading, they're cheating.

[00:06:37] - Agnieszka

Right?

[00:06:38] - Gary

Or that if they're not trading, that they're not working hard enough. So people equate having risk on in the markets whether they're confident in that risk or not working hard. And that's not the case. You might be motivated, you might be doing as much research, as much preparation as you possibly can, but there's nothing in the market that strikes you as worth doing. There's no point in putting on risk, right? And by choosing to not risk, you're not cheating, you're not you're not failing to try. You're recognizing that there isn't a trade that makes sense, really makes sense for you to do. But I do think that we all get caught into this trap of thinking that you have to be trading every day, otherwise you're failing.

[00:07:29] - Agnieszka

And that's a big problem. That projecting that fact, whether you are working hard enough on who you are and your own self worth, because that is that connection that people a lot of times make. Like, if I'm there and I trade and I didn't make money, at least I feel like I've done everything I could. But that's false premise, because you have done basically everything that you have learned. That does not apply to trading just beater and putting hours in. Right. But it is not hours in necessarily placing trades. It could be hours of just watching the charts.

[00:08:16] - Gary

Exactly.

[00:08:17] - Agnieszka

The problem is that if you're sitting in front of the charts, the next thing you know is you start clicking the buttons. Yeah.

[00:08:25] - Gary

There's a tremendous temptation to try to immediately translate a thought or an idea that the chart gives you to immediate action.

[00:08:37] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:08:37] - Gary

And as opposed to being more selective, because we probably all get loads of ideas over the course of a year. And looking at if you look at charts on a daily basis, I do, I do a run through of the charts every single day, without fail, sometimes twice. And you're always going to get hunches from that or ideas from that. But only some of those ideas, or maybe even a small percentage of them, are what I would call really actionable. Doesn't mean that you can't learn from them. You know what I mean? In other words, because the chart gives you an idea, it doesn't mean you necessarily have to do it immediately. It might mean that I see a process going on here. I see that silver may be bottoming. That doesn't mean that on Wednesday, July 5, you necessarily have to buy it. If you did buy it this morning, you'd be up some good money right now. But if you're looking at it thinking, god, this looks like in three months this is going to be could be a lot higher. Still doesn't mean you necessarily have to do the trade today. But it's on your radar now.

[00:09:44] - Agnieszka

Right?

[00:09:45] - Gary

Because it's on your radar, it doesn't mean you have to do it right away.

[00:09:48] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:09:49] - Gary

I don't look at silver normally, it's not something I look at every day. So I don't just want to jump into it just because I happen to see something on the chart. I'd like to maybe play with it a bit, think about it a bit. That means that I might miss a little bit of the move, but I'd rather get into it when I feel like I'm ready to get into it as opposed to just, oh God, got to have this on now because I saw it on the chart and it looks great.

[00:10:13] - Agnieszka

It's just so interesting that in other areas of our life like imagine that you have some ideas about maybe buying something or maybe going somewhere, traveling somewhere or doing something, I don't know, building your own coffee table or something. Right. Do you also jump into all those ideas right away? Just start buying all the things that you are dreaming about and going all the places, booking your tickets you also don't do that. Right, that's a great point. Nobody's doing that.

[00:10:50] - Gary

Exactly. Can you imagine if you acted on every impulse that you had in your personal life, whatever about things you want to do to the house, with travel, with learning something new. I mean you'd drive yourself nuts.

[00:11:02] - Agnieszka

Totally.

[00:11:03] - Gary

You'd be doing 30 different things at once and you wouldn't achieve any of them.

[00:11:07] - Agnieszka

Exactly, yeah. Being selective, I think in life in general it's a pretty big virtue but it also gives you a certain peace and that is what gives you control. Right? Being selective, being in that position where you are actually making a choices. What is the best course of action for me at this particular moment? Not just because everything is moving and I'm going to jump into 100 positions because just everything is moving but thinking, okay, what makes me feel good to go into? I used jump on purpose because I always say if your head is telling you jump into something, you probably shouldn't do it because jumping by principle means very impulsive action. Right? Yes. Emotional. Yes, exactly.

[00:12:02] - Gary

Letting the emotion take over the process which I don't think is great and.

[00:12:09] - Agnieszka

It might be great if you can be spontaneous in your life but in trading in general yes. Not a very good idea.

[00:12:18] - Gary

I agree with that. See that's another I totally agree. That's another example of sometimes how trading can contradict the rest of your life. I agree with you. Spontaneity, generally speaking, is a good thing in life overall. But yeah, in trading it can be a real problem. Interesting to think about what makes selectivity hard for people? Why is it that people find it difficult to implement being selective? And I wonder if part of that might be that being selective means being able to accept that you could still get it wrong. Like if you're selective, that's not a guarantee that you're going to win, it might increase your chances of winning and then maybe people feel like, god, if I'm very selective and I don't get it right on those selective moments when I do take on risk, then God, I must really be a failure. But I would argue that that's not the case because if you're being selective and you get it wrong, you're probably going to have another chance. You'll have another chance to take risk.

[00:13:25] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:13:26] - Gary

Whereas if you just take risk indiscriminately for 20 days in a row without being selective, you might run out of money, you might not live to fight another day, whereas with a selectivity you will live to fight another day. Yes, you might miss some trades that would have been winners by being selective, but I would argue that at least you live to fight another day if you choose to put a trade on and it doesn't work.

[00:13:55] - Agnieszka

One of the reasons why I think it is so difficult for people to be selective is because they don't have a very well specified object of their attention. Like what do they want? If I exactly know what I'm looking for, if I exactly know what it is that I want, I can be much more selective because I know the reason why am I selective? Right. If I don't know exactly what I'm looking for, how am I even going to do that selection? How am I going to say no to things that are not within the scope that brings me closer to what I want? And then the second part of it, I think, is patience.

[00:14:40] - Gary

Yes.

[00:14:40] - Agnieszka

And that has to do with how do you specify what is your expectations to get what you want and how soon, right?

[00:14:51] - Gary

I think that's huge. Being able to both on a sort of a micro level and a macro level, both in terms of, say, a particular trade, like not demanding that you get your reward within 1 hour. I mean, it might be something that you have to sit with for a number of days, possibly even weeks, maybe even longer, to get the real, real reward of that trade. And then the more macro thing is in terms of judging how it's going and assessing that you need a number of trades that you can't expect that after three trades, even if you had won on two out of the three trades, let's say, you can't expect to have that make a life changing difference. It's going to take this is a process, I think. I mean, people might not want to hear this that acts out in years, not in days or weeks or even months, right? And you have to be prepared to look at it that way. That you're on a journey that over a period of years that if you work at it, if you stick to the process, if you learn to try to do less of the things that don't work and more of the things that do work, I think over a period of years, you are going to get the reward from that.

[00:16:13] - Gary

But you said, do people have the patience to wait for that? Do people have the patience to even wait for an individual trade to give them the reward that they might be able to get from it? Or are they just happy to say, oh God, that's an okay profit, I'll take it off. Meanwhile, maybe they could have made double the amount if they kept part of the position on but it's the lack of patience it's the wanting to solidify it right now, like the desire for the certainty. And maybe it's the desire for self praise to be able to say, yes, I made some money, I'm going to pat myself on the back.

[00:16:50] - Agnieszka

Yeah. Because of that self worth. Right. It says something about you, what you were able to achieve, and you want to do it sooner than later, especially if there was a long period of time where that wasn't the case when you were failing. So now you have this urge like, okay, I finally want to feel good.

[00:17:10] - Gary

Like the need for self validation, if you like, through a positive trading result.

[00:17:16] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And self validation through trading is kind of lost battle because you see the difference between how we get self validation from other from a job, for example, is not through money. We know we will get money if we do a good job. Right. And there's so many researchers done that actually money is not a good motivator. That pat on the shoulder from your boss is much more powerful than getting a raise because the money eventually will fade. The value of the money in trading, it is so difficult for people to disconnect it. They really see themselves valued depending on how much money they make.

[00:18:02] - Gary

I agree.

[00:18:03] - Agnieszka

And I see it many times that when you have big profits, you feel invincible. You'll feel like a king of a castle. Right. And it's like, oh my God, I made it. And then there is a one week where it's not going well. Then your whole world collapses. And that's such a if you cannot let that go, if you cannot let go of that connection, it's going to be very difficult to work like this the whole life. Do you want to feel like this right when you trade for living?

[00:18:48] - Gary

Yeah. If you require that dopamine hit every day. That is a problem. Because you could have a whole week, even if, let's say, you had a very good period where you had, let's say, two weeks where you did very well, and then you had a third week where you just really didn't have any ideas and you did very little. I think for some people, the risk is that they view the third week where they do very little as a failure.

[00:19:18] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:19:19] - Gary

Because it's not that they lost money, but they feel a sense of failure because they didn't make money.

[00:19:25] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:19:26] - Gary

And I think there's a big difference between not making and between actually losing. Once you lose money, you've got to recover that just to get back to break even. And I think sometimes people underestimate that that's easier said than done. It's very easy to say, oh, it's only a little bit, or it doesn't really matter. But if it if it starts to add up, you get to a point where you have a lot of work to do just to get back to flat. And that's why I think it's perfectly fine, whether it's following two bad weeks or two good weeks, to have a week where you just don't do much. If you don't really have something that warrants putting on risk for, you can't put on risk just to meet the daily expenses of trading or living expenses. I think that's something else, maybe that people have to bear in mind. I know that people will feel pressured. They'll think, okay, I've got utilities, I've got subscriptions to pay for, I've got charting systems, I've got brokerage, all this stuff. And if I don't make, then I'm not coming up the money to meet those expenses.

[00:20:44] - Gary

But if you think of it in those terms, I think you're putting additional pressure on yourself could lead to a bad outcome.

[00:20:53] - Agnieszka

Definitely. Because pressure in general, I mean, there is enough pressure in trading. Right. And putting pressure, financial pressure on yourself, it takes your focus away from the process.

[00:21:06] - Gary

Absolutely right.

[00:21:07] - Agnieszka

You cannot perform well when you are thinking about just the end result and whether you will make money or not. And it's just so interesting because that whole money part in trading, I think that's like the most tricky part. People forget that the focus can be not on trading for money, but just trading with money. There's such a big difference. Yes, we are trading with money that is the product of that business, but that doesn't mean that you need to focus on trading for money.

[00:21:41] - Gary

Yes.

[00:21:42] - Agnieszka

It just gets kind of meshed up together and people cannot take that separately because you see, in other businesses, a lot of times we do make decisions, okay, I'm going to work for this company because my values agree with that and the way I feel better about myself working for a company that protects the environment. Right. It says something about my value. So now when you are working in the market and you're working with money, that connection to that personal value is also made. That is what makes you value yourself based on the money you make. Because there is simply nothing more. You cannot say, oh, my trading company saved the world or saved the dolphins. Right. Now I feel better. No, you automatically connected to how much money I make. And can I feel better now because I did the good thing with my company? And you're absolutely right. That's the part that people forget and they need to remind themselves continuously, because if you keep thinking like that, it's going to be really hard to come back and actually focus on the process.

[00:23:03] - Gary

Yeah. I think there always has to be such a clear distinction between process versus the result, and that if you're following your process and it's a reasonable process, it's okay if you have a negative result, it's not a bad trade if you followed your process. Yes, it's a bad trade if you don't manage your risk properly. If you didn't execute your stop loss when the market reached that level, or if you knew you were putting the position on at a time when it probably was a bit too risky to do. So, like, you know, you're not going to want to have a position on into the FOMC meeting, so should you really be putting a trade on the night before the FOMC meeting? Because you know, the market's probably not going to move that much anyway. Even if you're right, things like this, are you following your process, number one? And number two, is the process good enough now? There's two different questions. I mean, I think following the process is absolutely fundamental. You have to do that. And then the other aspect is just evaluating the process over time. I mean, if something hasn't worked 27 out of 30 times, then fair enough.

[00:24:37] - Gary

Then at that point I think you can say, all right, this isn't working. I either have to do less of it or stop doing it completely and analyze why. But if you're making money five out of ten times doing something, the other five out of ten times you're losing, that's not necessarily a bad thing. If you're following your process and the times when it's not working, you're quick to minimize the loss.

[00:25:05] - Agnieszka

That's fine.

[00:25:06] - Gary

But I think so often there's a temptation to look solely at the result and kind of undervalue the process. I mean, if you have put a trade on and managed the trade properly from start to finish, even if you haven't made money, it's not necessarily a bad trade because you lost money on that trade, right? If you put a trade on that was in clear violation of your process because you reacted to something emotionally and you happen to make money on that, that actually might be a bad trade even though the result is positive.

[00:25:44] - Agnieszka

And then you can start measuring, like, how many of the real bet trades are you making and how many times you made a good trade and it doesn't work because then you can start actually looking at yourself as a trader from a very different perspective. Right. I was really curious about what is your take on back testing, because I know that in general, it is being said that you need to have at least a sample of at least 250 trades. If you back test, what's your take on it?

[00:26:17] - Gary

It's funny that you mentioned it's almost like you read my mind, seriously, because I think it's good to give something a certain period of time. And maybe you could say maybe in test mode, if you like. You can either do that by just doing it on paper and not putting real money into it, or another way to do it is just take very small positions and try a method out. The problem with giving with real money, it's difficult to give something 250 times because if you get it wrong, 200 times you might run out of money, right? So I think at some point you have to place a limit on it. But I think it is really useful to, in your own way, come up with a method of back testing. Some people will do it in a very sort of traditional way with algorithms or software or whatever. Other people might choose to do it an old school way, just keeping a journal. I feel like I'm constantly doing that. I'm always doing that because market conditions change and things that work well in volatile environments might not work well in quieter environments and vice versa.

[00:27:40] - Gary

So to me, it's almost like as you're going through your trading, especially if something isn't working that well, I think it is good to sort of back test it at that point. Maybe stop doing it with real money. Do it on paper. If you want to continue doing it, do it in much smaller size. Keep track of it and be honest with yourself and say, okay, out of the last ten times, how many times has this worked? And if it's not working, try to identify why. Is there a reason why something that you think should work isn't working? What am I missing? What piece of the puzzle am I not taking into account? Is it simply that this strategy isn't appropriate to current market conditions? Or is it something else? Is there something that I'm completely overlooking that might prevent me from taking these sort of trades? I also think there's nothing wrong with using a back testing process to decide and say, you know what, I can't figure out why this isn't working. But the bottom line is it's not working, right? Whether I can figure out why or not almost isn't that important.

[00:28:54] - Gary

Fact is, it's not working for me and it's okay to stop doing it.

[00:29:00] - Agnieszka

And we are back to doing nothing. Because that's exactly the moment when you should stop and actually take a step back and start looking into how am I going to fix this problem? Right? Instead of doing more. Because that's the very first reaction. Something is not working. I'm just going to put more work into it until it's working. And that's where people start losing their accounts.

[00:29:27] - Gary

How about this? I mean, look at it this way. Almost like fear of doing nothing. In other words, if you stop doing what's not working, all right, then that's going to mean you're going to go through a period where you may have to do nothing until you find something that you feel will work. And I think people have discomfort with the uncertainty of that. In other words, what does that mean? Does that mean I can't trade for a week?

[00:29:53] - Agnieszka

Exactly.

[00:29:53] - Gary

Does that mean I have to stop trading for a month? I can't do that. I can't stop trading for a month. It's not only the bills that I have to pay. It's the psychology. Yes. It's almost like saying you can't have ice cream for a month, right? People don't want to hear that. And it's the fear of the unknown, the lack of certainty.

[00:30:13] - Agnieszka

I love what you said, fear of doing nothing. I think this is like a viable fear because it's like, you mean, I'm not going to trade, so I'm not going to make money. And then I say, yeah, but you're also not going to lose money.

[00:30:27] - Gary

And what does that do to your feeling of self worth if for a period of time you're doing nothing, are you then devaluing your self worth during that period when you're doing nothing? I mean, I think it's a mistake and sad if people do that, but I think that's what's happening totally.

[00:30:45] - Agnieszka

I think the need to be useful is so deeply ingrained in us. Like, I need to be useful.

[00:30:53] - Gary

Yes.

[00:30:53] - Agnieszka

And people forget that just by living, you are already useful because you are contributing to the society. Just by being there. You are useful, you have a role. And especially like if you have a family, there is always a role that you are fulfilling and for yourself too, because if you are doing nothing, you giving yourself rest. And that's very useful. Useful to your mental state, useful to your body taking rest. Right? So you actually letting a lot of processes that normally when you are going like crazy, trying to do a lot of things, trying to work, like machine and stressing yourself out about losing money, about have to have a trade now you're giving yourself that moment where your nervous system can actually finally recharge and recoup.

[00:31:52] - Gary

I think having the opportunity in periods where there's less obvious trades to do or where you don't have, where something isn't immediately hitting you that you should do in the market. I think people sometimes underestimate how valuable that could be in terms of just like making sure that you're taking advantage of that to exercise, to look at other aspects of your life that you may be neglecting slightly. That is an advantage of having that period where there are no great trades to try to do, right? Look at your diet, look at your exercise, your sleep, whereas when you're just wrapped up, I think in robotically trading, whether it's working or not, I think there's a tendency to neglect these other areas of your life yeah.

[00:32:46] - Agnieszka

Which are, by the way, having that opportunity to do that and having that freedom is the reason why people step into trading in the first place. So just start living it already, right? Don't wait until you make it because those parts, like the moments that you are taking off from trading when there is no opportunity actually helps you to achieve your goal much more than sitting there and over trading right, and accepting it. That this is part of this job will give you also more freedom, mental freedom and more. Feeling that you are actually making it. Right. I know there's this whole term to make it because it's not really like one point in time. If you want to trade for a living, start living a trader's life. And that involves not trading all the time.

[00:33:45] - Gary

Exactly. I think there's a big element of thought, just pains me of ego in this. In other words, being able to actually say I don't know which way the market's going to go today.

[00:33:57] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:33:58] - Gary

I can make a good case for it to go either direction. Honestly don't know. But I think ego prevents a lot of traders from saying that to themselves because the thought process is that oh, I'm supposed to always know where the market is going to go every day. Well, maybe if you're working in a bank as a market maker, that's what sort of drilled into you. But if you are a professional trader or somebody trying to trade for a living or whatever, and you're not working for large financial institution, it's impossible to pretend to know where the market is going to go every day. But the ego, I think, makes us feel like oh, if I don't know where it's going, then I must be stupid, right? I must be thick if I can't predict where it's going.

[00:34:44] - Agnieszka

Yeah, I'm supposed to know.

[00:34:46] - Gary

Exactly. Bingo. That's a great way to put it. I'm supposed to know and if I don't know, I'm a loser. Yeah, how silly is that?

[00:34:55] - Agnieszka

I know.

[00:34:55] - Gary

I think it's so important to be able to admit and say, you know what, I can't call it here, I really can't call it. But I think people have a hard time being able to look themselves in a mirror and admit that to themselves. Nothing wrong with it, to not know where it's going to go.

[00:35:12] - Agnieszka

It's part of letting that control go.

[00:35:14] - Gary

Exactly.

[00:35:14] - Agnieszka

Accepting that you don't control the market and all you can do is just follow it, defining the direction. It's nothing set in stone because it might go your way, the way you think it's going to go for a while and then it might going to turn around. So are you now right or are you wrong?

[00:35:33] - Gary

Exactly. If you were right for 3 hours and then it starts to reverse, are you then wrong if you've still held the position right as opposed to if you were right for just 14 hours straight? Exactly right.

[00:35:51] - Agnieszka

Yeah.

[00:35:52] - Gary

It is a moment in time.

[00:35:54] - Agnieszka

Funny thing is that or maybe actually it's not really funny, it's pretty sad that the ego will always pick up the side of trying to criticize you. So even if you were right for 3 hours, it will know to turn around the story to tell you that you were not good enough and you haven't done the proper job to identify the direction of the market.

[00:36:17] - Gary

And that's negative feedback, it's negative self talk and this type of thing I think is to be avoided like the plague. It's really counterproductive. But I think, as you say, I think it's unfortunately, it's kind of like human nature in a way. But it's something that we have to try to fight to try to counter because it's going to hold a traitor back having that sort of tendency to always be self critical, right.

[00:36:51] - Agnieszka

One of the reasons why people like to be always busy is because the moment that you are not that you are doing nothing and you actually sit there and observe, that's where all the thoughts are suddenly visible and all the thoughts are coming into your head. When you are busy, it's much easier to push them away, right. Because you're just doing something, right? So you're not that focused on your head. And that's most of the time where people start doing and doing and doing and doing thinking. This is actually helping me. The thing is with the thoughts is we cannot release them if we don't let them. Like if we don't acknowledge that they are there, we are just pushing them away. That's resisting and they're still there, it's just that we don't want to see them. I like to compare thoughts to the clouds and they're just passing by through your head, right. Your brain is that tool we have that kind of reads the thoughts. So if this thought is coming up, it doesn't mean you have to do something with it, you have to hang on to it. You can just look it as a cloud, it's passing by and it's up to you what you do with that.

[00:38:12] - Agnieszka

But if you are pushing it away when it's coming, it didn't go away, you just put the block in front of it and say, no, not now. So this thought is kind of circling around and waiting for you to release it. So don't be afraid to do nothing and to let those thoughts come, even if you don't like those thoughts. But you will at least have this experience that you don't have to do anything with the thoughts and that you are not the thoughts that's I think the biggest part of it. You are not your thoughts.

[00:38:48] - Gary

I agree with that. You mentioned talking about being busy or the concept of being busy. I wonder if sometimes people fear never being busy again. In other words, it's the fear of like oh, if I'm not busy now, does this mean that I might never be busy again? And it gets back to the which of course is irrational. But it's that fear. It's almost like the fear that there will never be a good trade again. As if this is it, I got stopped out, I took a loss and God, it's going to be six months before I see another.

[00:39:25] - Agnieszka

And again, it's not rational, right, because 2 seconds later you're in another trade.

[00:39:31] - Gary

Exactly. I mean, the power of fear, I think, can't be underestimated and unfortunately, like the negative power of fear that if we don't manage it well, it can really lead us down terrible rabbit holes. Something else I just wanted to touch on before about just this whole concept of doing nothing is that there's a difference between failing to take a trade that you should take. In other words, your process says that you should take it, and for whatever reason, you choose not to. You get cold feet, you get nervous, and you decide not to take it. So you do nothing. That's different than consciously choosing to do nothing because you don't see any value in the market. You don't see any good trades to do.

[00:40:24] - Agnieszka

That's a very good point.

[00:40:26] - Gary

When we talk about doing nothing, we need to distinguish between doing nothing as a conscious choice, that's process driven, or doing nothing as a result of not following your process.

[00:40:40] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:40:41] - Gary

Two totally different scenarios there.

[00:40:44] - Agnieszka

So how do you do nothing? What do you do? Do you do something when you do nothing?

[00:40:51] - Gary

I think the way I look at it is this. I mean, for a start, the charting helps. Making sure that, especially in quiet times, that I do a really solid run through of all the markets that I look at, across asset classes, and I don't look at 100 or anything like that. I probably bet maybe 20 instruments in total that I look at. But I look at them on different time frames, like quarterly, monthly, weekly, daily, four, hourly, just to get a sense going back in time about what the bigger picture is and then taking it all the way up to what's going on right now. And I always feel that when I'm doing that, even if the market's quiet, I don't have any active trading ideas that I'm kind of getting prepared. In other words, it's like doing my stretching. In other words, it's getting me ready for when something does happen. Either a level is reached or a level is broken, or doing this sort of preparation. The other thing is more like fundamental research, like just listening to podcasts, reading research, not everything. Again, being selective about it, finding things that I find help me, like commentators that make me think of things that maybe I overlook sometimes, making sure that I understand what's going on in the market.

[00:42:22] - Gary

And I think that quiet market, when you're not actively trading, it's a wonderful time to do that, right? You can maybe read something with a bit more attention. You can maybe listen to a podcast or webinar and not be distracted. You can be a bit more fully focused on it. So basically, long winded answer to your question, how do I do it? How do I do nothing? I try to increase my knowledge base whilst I'm waiting for my next trade idea to come. Just keep increasing the knowledge base, what I know about what's going on, even try to improve my understanding of things like why yield curves get inverted and what that means and why if an inverted yield curve means a recession, well, how come we're not in a recession now? Where's the recession, right? Just trying to improve a little bit each day in terms of overall market knowledge that might help me in terms of putting on positions and looking at that as a win. In other words, not saying, oh shit, I haven't done any trades today, or I traded in a flat or a little bit, lost a little bit.

[00:43:35] - Gary

Not looking at that as like a defeat saying, hang on a second, I might have learned something today. I might have picked up some knowledge or a way of looking at the market that might help me going forward. And another thing I would add that I haven't mentioned so far is the human behavior aspect of this, which is where, frankly, people like you come in, like, hang on a minute, there is this human behavior component to this. What am I doing? Am I helping myself get the best out of myself, often trading and otherwise and kind of allocating some time to that, like listening to podcasts from people like yourself and questioning and taking a little bit of time to say, okay, am I doing things that are making it myself more productive or less productive? And if not, what needs to change?

[00:44:28] - Agnieszka

Right? And that is actually a really great way to give that feeling to yourself of I am growing as a trader, right? Yes, because you increase your knowledge as a trader. So you grow as a person, as a trader without connecting it to the end result of how much money I made. Because knowledge has so much more value than the nominal value of the money you make. Because if you are really growing as a trader, your account will follow, especially if you do that in the time where you should not be trading, right? Because now you're spending really actually the time that you have allocated to trading on something that's very valuable. And I think when you are in that moment where you are not trading and you start journaling your thoughts, your emotions, what is going through your head, what is going through your stomach, what feelings do you get, what urges, what fears. If you start writing that down, you will start discovering patterns that are pushing you to take trades that you shouldn't be taking, that you will start noticing how you talk to yourself and that will give you that different perspective of, oh, okay, is this really what I'm doing to myself?

[00:46:00] - Agnieszka

Because you might start noticing some ruminating thoughts and noticing that it is actually most of them are not true, that they are not in line who you are, but they do make you feel bad about yourself. So that's a very great suggestions and ways for the listeners to implement into their trading. So thank you for that, Gary.

[00:46:24] - Gary

You're welcome. I think yeah, just trying to have a mindset of growth and having confidence that over time that will yield rewards versus what I would call a mindset of desperation and lack of patience, where you're looking for it to just happen the day before yesterday. And I think you and I, the last time we had this discussion, it's no different than a human relationship.

[00:46:53] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:46:53] - Gary

The same thing, if you're approaching it from a mindset of it has to happen right now with desperation, I would say that by default, it's not going to happen. You're going to prevent it from happening. And I think it's hard for people sometimes to accept that.

[00:47:11] - Agnieszka

And you know, the reason why that happens is and a lot of people don't see it because when you push something, you put so much force to it that you push it away from you.

[00:47:26] - Gary

Exactly. I totally agree with that. And it gets back to what we began the conversation with, where this sense that we are programmed from a young age to think that action equaled good.

[00:47:39] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:47:40] - Gary

Taking action equals being proactive. You know what I mean? We're taught that sitting still is not a good thing. I think that, unfortunately, that affects people's trading, and it all affect their human relationships. Try too hard to make it happen as opposed to allowing it to happen. That can get you into trouble.

[00:48:06] - Agnieszka

Totally.

[00:48:07.] - Gary

But again, that comes from having faith in the process over time. In other words, not being desperate to see the result immediately. I mean, I've watched different type of podcasts on trading, psychology and human behavior, and I can't tell you how many times when I hear seasoned veterans talk, they talk about making progress over a period of years. It's very rare that I hear somebody talk about their history, either recent history or further back, where they just say, oh yeah, it all happened in three months. Within 90 days, I was a genius. Generally speaking, people define their progression and getting to a stage where they felt confident and confident in years. Not like one or two, like three, four, five all the time I hear this, but I think particularly in the world that we live in, we live in a one click world where information is transmitted in a nanosecond over social media and whatever. So our expectations of time and our expectations of processes have sped up enormously. We can't compute something taking two, three, four. We can't compute that we want to see it now.

[00:49:32] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:49:33] - Gary

And I think that's more the case in 2023 than ever. And it's a function of technology, and we have to all learn to come to grips with that psychologically.

[00:49:44] - Agnieszka

It's interesting that you said it, because recently I spoke to one of the traders and we were talking about his readiness to go over to trading for a living. And the discussion went on not necessarily the technicalities of trading or how well you can trade, but it is more how ready mentally you are to make that step. How ready you are to actually acknowledge that you will have to take responsibility for every single action you do. You will have to take responsibility for exist in that moment of insecurity and also perform in that environment. Right. Not knowing if you are going to bring money this month, that's a huge step, mental step that you have to make because you might be for three months consistent and then get this idea, okay, now I can trade for a living. But then you step over and suddenly things are going completely different than they were before, just because mentally you cannot handle that pressure. And I think it definitely takes long time to make that switch. To become aware of it is one. But then to accept it and be willing to practice it, because it's a matter of building emotional immunity to stress, to risk, first of all.

[00:51:23] - Agnieszka

Right, and making sure that you are building that immunity in stages and not immediately take a huge risk and lose a lot of money and hurt yourself because now you are even further away from where you wanted to be. So yeah, it definitely takes time.

[00:51:39] - Gary

What a great phrase, emotional immunity. I love that desire for certainty. That's something I think people need to try to conquer. Like what you were just saying, accepting that, okay, you've had a couple of good weeks or good months, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the next month is going to be a successful month. I mean, take for example, summer month. Summer trading is very different from the rest of the year. There are some people who struggle with it and there are some people actually do quite well with it, right? So that's a perfect example where you could have a period where you do well and then because of that you think, oh, okay, I'm entitled to this. The plane is up in the air and there's never going to be any turbulence.

[00:52:28] - Agnieszka

That's a great comparison.

[00:52:32] - Gary

September, October comes around and the character of markets changes a bit and all of a sudden you're finding it harder to make money. And you thought that you had the ability to cope with the uncertainty down pat and then you realized that you didn't. So you're right. Accepting the permanence of uncertainty is different from you actually being able to implement that day after day, week after week. It's one thing to think it, it's another thing to actually do it right and not get crushed when it's going well and all of a sudden it stops going well.

[00:53:16] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And I think the one measure of it is how easily are you of your piece when you lose, right. If you are still in a stage where you feel bad about yourself when you are losing, then you are really far away going full time trading, because then you're definitely not immune to losses. Right. You are not immune to your result. And if you have that, it's going to be constant up and down and you will just wear yourself out emotionally. So there are different stages where you can notice, okay, I'm actually not being influenced whether I had a green or red day and I can just go and have my dinner and still enjoy the rest of my day. I can go a step further. Right. But if you want to go from A to immediately to Z and to make that switch and say, yeah, you know what, I've been trading now for two years, I think I'm ready, without making that journey, because it is a journey. And some people maybe make it faster, maybe they are emotionally, I don't know, more prepared for depending on what they live through in their life and how they release their emotions.

[00:54:38] - Agnieszka

I know that some people, they are much easier accepting what's happening and letting it go easier. I like to compare it to growing a plant. There is only so much you can do. You can give it water, you can give it good dirt, you can fertilize it, give it sunlight, but then you have to wait.

[00:54:59] - Gary

Exactly.

[00:55:00] - Agnieszka

It will not make any sense if you stand on top of it and scream to it to grow faster.

[00:55:05] - Gary

Exactly.

[00:55:06] - Agnieszka

It's not going to happen. So that's the same with trading. You can do all the things in your favor, but then the process has to take over and you have to give.

[00:55:18] - Gary

Yeah, there needs to be a passage of time. And this has come up in some podcasts that I've seen over the years where people think that they can condense. That like in reading a book where everything makes sense, the concepts make sense, and you've read the book and say, you know what, I'm going to implement this and really make sense. The implementation takes time. And the implementation doesn't happen just in the week or two weeks that it takes to read the book. It's about everything that happens afterwards.

[00:55:58] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:55:59] - Gary

And as you said, there's no set formula. Some people need more time than others. But no matter how naturally it comes for everybody, even people who have a natural skill in trading, I think that it's a process. And it isn't a process that's completed just by reading a good book.

[00:56:18] - Agnieszka

No, totally.

[00:56:19] - Gary

That's like just 1% of the process.

[00:56:22] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:56:23] - Gary

I mean, that's just kind of like the trail map that maybe points you in the direction of where you're going. That's just the beginning. I think people's expectation sometimes is that, okay, if I watch some webinars, read some books, that's it, I'm done, it's going to happen. But until you actually trade yourself and work on applying all this, it's in the application of the concepts, I think, to your own situation, your own set of circumstances. That's where the progress is made. Not just in reading about discipline, reading about controlling your emotions.

[00:57:04] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:57:05] - Gary

You have to do it in real time and experience the ups and downs from that and try to learn from the downs in particular.

[00:57:15] - Agnieszka

Yeah, because it will always come back to you as a person who you are and how easily can you act in your best interest.

[00:57:26] - Gary

I've heard one trader in the market describe trades as sort of like capsules of information that he's being given after there's a winner or a loser, that there's something to be learned from. In every situation. Did I follow my process? If it didn't work, why didn't it work? Things like that. So there's something yeah. Obviously, none of us wants to have a lot of consecutive losing trades. But when you have losing trades, there is information begotten from that that can potentially help you avoid that in the future, whether it means that you have to change your strategy or maybe take a look at your process and look at it as something that can be learned from, rather than just saying, I lost money on this trade, therefore I'm a loser.

[00:58:25] - Agnieszka

Right. And the interesting reaction to that is when that happens, instead of looking at that particular mistake or at that particular period going through the process, going through what you were thinking and how did you act to the impulses from the market? Many traders skip that part and they go to YouTube and start watching just kind of some random webinar about how to trade. Right. Or some other strategy. I'm like, but wait a minute. The real lesson is there. You already paid for it because you took a losing trade, so you paid money for it, and now you go and start watching some random thing. That's not what you're going to learn about what just happened. You might learn something different, but not what you just pay for.

[00:59:13] - Gary

Yeah, that's where getting back to what you mentioned before, that's kind of where back testing comes in and observing what happens and almost observing, okay, why didn't I not see? Why did I not foresee what happened in the market? Or why was I unable to recognize it in a more timely fashion and actually learning from it?

[00:59:43] - Agnieszka

Right. Things are happening for us and not to us. That's how I like to look at things, whether it's in life or in trading everything what happens. It's a feedback. It's a feedback. It's some information that we are receiving. And if we don't use that, we will get another lesson. That's just my very personal belief that if I don't get a message, if I don't learn from the experience, I will probably get an experience that the universe will give me and say, okay, I assume you haven't noticed the lesson I just gave you. Let me make it more clear. And the experience would be just much.

[01:00:27] - Gary

Stronger spot on I so agree with that. If you're not willing to at least acknowledge the feedback that the market's giving you, then you're setting yourself up for a problem. You have to listen to the message. Not to say that you necessarily have to change everything all the time and just on the basis of one or two bad trades, but if you're being given a message, I agree with you, it's important to heed that and not discard that and not just say that, oh, the market's wrong. They just don't see it the way I'm seeing it. Yeah. I think that's so important to when you're given a message, acknowledge it, not need to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Getting back to what you just said about watching YouTube videos, this sort of thing, I think it's really important for people to make knowledge their own. In other words, rather than just watch something and say that, I'm going to duplicate what this person's doing is to find a way of making it your own. And that might mean only implementing parts of what you've heard rather than the whole thing.

[01:01:44] - Agnieszka

Right.

[01:01:45] - Gary

In the end, it has to work for you. In other words, nobody can create a master plan of trading for you. You ultimately have to do that. You can get some knowledge, you can perhaps get some guidance, but in the end, you ultimately have to make it your own. And I think sometimes there's a tendency for people to think that, well, if I just follow rigidly to a T what this so successful person is doing that I'm going to succeed, and I don't agree with that. I think you have to, in the end, come up with your own sauce if you like your own recipe.

[01:02:22] - Agnieszka

Right.

[01:02:22] - Gary

You can take guidance from people, whether it's people dealing with trading, psychology, human behavior, technical analysis, but you ultimately have to make your own dinner.

[01:02:33] - Agnieszka

Yeah. Because that's where the confidence will come from. You have to understand it on a deeper level. You have to understand what you're doing and why you're doing it. And that is also the part that requires time, because when you just start trading and someone will tell you, yeah, you have to make it your own, you don't even know where to start. Right. It kind of all starts clicking and making sense and becoming yours while you're doing it. Because now you start understanding, oh, this style doesn't suit me. This I don't really understand. Yeah, I put all these lines on my charts now I don't see the candles. You have to kind of give it time and give effort to understand what's yours, who you are as a trader, because you are forming yourself as a sort of a new person right. In life, just like every actor has its own character, you're becoming a trader with your own character and your own strengths and the way that you will be expressing yourself in the market.

[01:03:39] - Gary

Absolutely.

[01:03:40] - Agnieszka

I think that this was such a great discussion. Is there anything that you would like to add?

[01:03:48] - Gary

Give you one final thought that relates to what we started with this whole idea that actually that doing nothing is okay. We all are familiar with the word FOMO, but I think there's a particular type of FOMO that really gets people and can lead to them having difficulty just doing nothing. And that's the fear of not being involved when a market absolutely takes off and rockets right nvidia did not that long ago, especially when it's something that might not be logical, that might not be a lot of sense. And I think being able to deal with those feelings is important, because if you don't deal well with those feelings, I think it can be very costly if you act on the fear of, like, oh, God, I'm going to feel like such an idiot if this market goes to the moon and I haven't managed to catch that move. I don't think it's necessarily so much people fearing an intraday move. Of course we don't like missing an opportunity to make money intraday. But I think where people are particularly sensitive, seeing a market just move big over a number of days or weeks and then feeling like an idiot for not having caught that and then maybe doing something afterwards that they shouldn't be doing to make up for it when they would have been better off doing nothing.

[01:05:33] - Gary

In other words, accepting that you can miss big moves, it's not a crime.

[01:05:40] - Agnieszka

It doesn't mean there will be more.

[01:05:43] - Gary

But if in response to missing a major move, you break down emotionally as opposed to doing nothing when you should be doing nothing, you're then going to set yourself further behind. So, yeah, my closing message would be don't let extreme FOMO sabotage your emotions and bear in mind that there are situations, many situations, where doing nothing is actually the rational choice.

[01:06:13] - Agnieszka

Right.

[01:06:13] - Gary

And the right choice. The right trade.

[01:06:16] - Agnieszka

The right trade. That's very well. Very well said. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode and thank you so much, Gary, for joining us and for this conversation. I think it was very inspiring and I love talking with you and exchange the ideas, especially with your experience as a professional trader and now trading for yourself for so many years. I think it is just so valuable to hear your thoughts because a lot of times we look at traders that have been trading for many years and we think they don't struggle with anything, that it is also easy cake for them. And I think this is so good to hear from you that it is basically for everyone challenging and it takes time and you just have to give it time, give yourself fair chance to succeed.

[01:07:10] - Gary

Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure talking about all these things you came up. With a lot of really good ideas and you kind of spurred me on to think of some other things. So very wonderful hour or however long it was.

[01:07:29] - Agnieszka

Nice. Very nice. Well, I hope that this will help traders who are listening to gain some perspective and also have some compassion for themselves because it is really so important that we are taking care of ourselves, give ourselves love and compassion. Even though trading might be the harsh job of trading money and very hard market environment. But it is all really about yourself and how you treat yourself, how you take care of yourself so that you actually can come back every day and perform on the highest level possible. So thank you so much for listening to the podcast and if you enjoy my show, please rate it and review it on Apple podcasts and be sure sure to subscribe so you can come back for a real life conversation in the next episode. Until then, this is Agnieszka Wood from Ahead Coach. And don't forget, you too can realize your dream without losing yourself and your confidence in the process.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/

Bill Provenzano, a seasoned trader who started his journey in 1987 on the vibrant floors of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (The Merck) shares an inspiring tale of synergizing his Christian faith with his trading and business ventures. Drawing wisdom from biblical principles, delve into the profound connection between meditation, renewing of the mind, and stewardship.

This episode's takeaways:

A holistic approach to trading guided by faith

The transformative influence of mentorship in trading

Unveiling the potential of faith-based enhancement in trading performance

About Bill Provenzano

Bill Provenzano began his journey into trading as a Runner on the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, also known as “The Merc”, in 1987. He was just 19 years old. Within three years he became a member of the exchange and traded his account as an Independent Floor Trader in the Eurodollar futures pit. 

Bill’s trading success grew over his nearly 20 years at the Merc. When computerized trading took away the need for floor traders, Bill left the trading floor and went on to build two successful non-trading-related companies. But he continued trading commodity futures electronically and coaching other traders.  

Bill has a very unique perspective in that he is unapologetic in his belief that his Christian faith plays a vital role in his professional performance. In his book, Trading With Faith; 12 Biblically Inspired Principles for Trading Success, he shares the biblical principles he leaned on during his trading career that he believes were instrumental to his success as a trader. Bill and his wife of 25 years enjoy traveling and just celebrated the birth of their first grandchild. 

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

Contact Bill Provenzano:

• Website: www.tradingcoachbillpro.com
• Get Bill’s new  book here https://a.co/d/ec8c44N

Transcript:

[00:00:00.410] - Agnieszka

Welcome to the Confidence in Trading podcast. I'm Agnieszka Wood. In today's show, I have the pleasure of speaking to Bill Provenzano, who began his trading journey in 1987 as a runner on the floor of the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, or the Merck. He was just 19 years old. After several promotions, Bill realized his goal of becoming a trader and grew his success on the trading floor for nearly 20 years. In a moment, Bill will tell you himself what happened after and what he's up to right now. Bill and I share a passion, and not just for trading, but also for helping other traders on the way to their success. However, Bill has a very unique perspective on what plays an important role in trading performance, an approach that I have never heard of before. And that is what triggered me to invite Bill on my show to talk about it. Welcome to episode number eleven. Can prayer improve your trading? Hi, Bill, welcome and thank you so much for making time to be my guest today.

[00:01:14.420] - Bill

Thank you so much, Agnieszka. I consider it a pleasure being on your show, your podcast, and I'm an admirer of the work you do in this space.

[00:01:22.330] - Agnieszka

Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I am so excited about hearing your unique perspective. There are so many different ways to success, but the one you are talking about, and you will share with us in a minute, that is something that I have personally never heard anyone talk about. But before we get into that, could you tell us a little bit about your trading journey? How was it to leave the trading floor after so many years? And did you continue trading after you left?

[00:01:54.970] - Bill

The answer is, it was a shock and yes and no. So I'll just jump back real quickly if I could, back into the late 1980s when I was first introduced to trading. I was just out of high school. I was in my first year at the local junior college. I fully anticipated going into law school. My father was an attorney, and within my father's law office was another attorney who had a brother who was a trader, and he traded S&P Futures. And my father, one day we met every week and my folks were divorced. But every Saturday, myself and my two brothers got together with my dad. We would work for my dad. We cleaned his office, which I'll talk about, which kind of opened up another world for me later. So we used to clean his office on Saturday mornings, and then we would all go out to breakfast. And as for breakfast, one day, my dad was like, look, there's a guy in our office. His brother, the gentleman's name was Ronnie. The attorney in his office. Ronnie has a brother named Danny. And I don't know what Danny does exactly, but it's something about trading and S&Ps. And I don't know, I think you guys should meet him. Okay? So my brother and I made an appointment to go down to Chicago Mercantile Exchange and meet, meet with Danny. And I never even heard of the Chicago mercantile exchange. I never heard of trading, I never heard of S&Ps, none of it made any sense to me. But we went down to the Merck, and as you're walking up 30 south whacker, that's where I worked for almost 20 years. As you're walking towards the building, there's all these people out in the front with all these jackets, these colorful jackets on, and 80% of them, 90% were smoking, and my brothers and I were not smokers. So we walked through them like, what's all this? What are these guys doing? So you walk in the front doors there at the merck of 30 south whacker, and then you go to the far right, because that's where the visitors gallery was. That's where we needed to meet Danny. We're going to meet him in the visitors gallery. So you take the elevator up to the fourth floor, the doors open, and you turn right. And as you turn right, the trading floors are no more. But back then, you turn right and you just see this wall of glass, and you just hear this sort of dull roar. And as you start walking towards this wall of glass, you see all these colors, these wallboards filled with numbers and words. And then as you're getting closer and closer so to paint the picture even better, the visitors gallery bisected the trading floor. So as you got to the glass of the visitors gallery, if you look down one level, that's where all the trading pits were. And then you can look up another, like one story, and that's where all the wallboards were. We walked up to the glass, and I'm looking at it, there are moments in your life where the trajectory of your life changes. I looked down at that and I said to my brothers, I said, I don't know what they're doing, but I want in. I need to be a part of this. And I'm not someone there are some people who, when they're told no, it's like that feeds them to do that. That's really not my approach is more like if I look at somebody who's doing something and doing it well, the exclusion of that is a professional basketball player, professional athletes. I know I'm never going to be one of those. But if I see somebody and somebody doing something well, I look at them and I say, look. Not in an overconfident kind of way. Look, but look. And I said this to my brothers at the time. I said, look, we're three intelligent guys. No one works harder than us. And we've got some level of street smarts, we've got a good level of book smarts. We're hard workers. There's no way that we can't do what they're doing. And I don't know what they're doing, but it looks like I want to do it too.

[00:05:57.730] - Agnieszka

But I want a jacket like that.

[00:06:00.050] - Bill

But I want one of those jackets. So I'm the youngest of three brothers. My oldest brother got a job on the floor as a runner at the beginning of the summer. I was able to get a job at the end of that summer. And this was the summer of, I think it was I was 19. So that would have been the summer of 87, late summer of 87, and I got a job as a runner.

[00:06:24.240] - Agnieszka

I'm actually not sure what does the runner do?

[00:06:26.430] - Bill

So back in the day so now imagine when you've got your mouse in your hand and you click an order to buy or sell that's transmitted electronically. Back then. It was you pick up the phone, you call your floor broker on the trading floor, there's just walls and walls of phone banks. And so depending on the company, you're clear trades through, let's say you cleared your trades, know, back in the day was Revco or all the different. So let's say you cleared your trades through Revco. You would call the Revco desk and you would me buy me five S&Ps. The clerk would write that down on an order slip, buy five S&P. Then the price, whether it's a market order, limit order, whatever it might be, hand it to the runner. The runner takes the order and delivers it to the trading pit.

[00:07:11.270] - Agnieszka

Got ya.

[00:07:11.530] - Bill

You just in me describing all that. You can see why electronic trading is way more efficient because all of that requires so much labor and time that you can do on a click of a mouse right now. So I started working as a runner, and it wasn't long before I realized, look, I had a mentor later on in life who described it to me like this way. He said when he started work at this one particular job, he looked around, he said he said, who's the highest paid person at this place? This was a mentor of mine was telling me the story. He got a job at I forget where. He said, but he got a job. And he asked the guy that was hiring, who's the highest paid person in here? And the guy pointed to this guy over here. He says, okay, how do I get his job? So when you're working on the trading floor as a know, you're making peanuts, and it doesn't take you long to realize that the traders, the guys in the pit doing the yelling and the screaming, the writing of the cards, they're the ones making the money. And that's what I wanted to do. And then as you're there, like I said, I started at the Merck. So right down the street was Chicago Board of Trade. Chicago Board of Trade traded. They had the treasury bron. Futures was their big contract. They had a lot of the agricultural stuff, the grains at the Merck, we had the meat, so to speak. So we had the live cattle and that, but then we had the currency futures, we had the eurodollar futures, which were short term interest rate futures and the S P futures. But all that to say, as you spend time within this business, whether it's as a runner, whether you just get introduced to trading through your Uncle Jim, whatever it might be, you start getting introduced to different products, and you will just start to just naturally gravitate towards a particular product that you like to trade. For some people, they like to trade stocks or they like to trade penny stocks. Some people like trade tech stocks, some people like to trade options only. So it's in that immersion within the business. As you come in within the business, you will just naturally find sort of where you migrate towards within that business as a runner.

[00:09:21.820] - Agnieszka

How did you know? Because you were pretty much bringing the orders like you didn't actively trade it. So just like imagine the new trader just steps into the market, also doesn't know what am I gravitating towards?

[00:09:34.700] - Bill

Yeah, and let's think of it in the same way as someone who just gets introduced to trading today. They just sit down and then in the same way, they're just going to start scratching the surface and learning more. Well, as a runner, I started in the meats, so I was delivering the orders to the live cattle, live hogs, pork belly pits. The only way I can say it is that segment of the market didn't speak to me, so to speak. I was gravitating more towards the interest rate future markets, which were the euro dollars. Euro dollars is sort of a misnomer. Euro dollars are the 30 day interest rate market. And so think of it as very short term interest rates. You got the 30 year bond and then the ten year bond, the five year note and the year dollars. So that's the interest rate spectrum.

[00:10:22.330] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:10:22.890] - Bill

So I just started gravitating towards the year dollars. Well, most because I had a couple of friends that were trading in there. I had a really good friend who I've met day one on the trading floor as a runner. I met him, he was two years ahead of me, sort of on the totem pole, and he was already a desk manager and working his way, knowing that he was going to go into trading as soon as he can. Just sort of because you need some capital. And that's the other thing I want to talk about and I know this conversation can go off in so many different tangents.

[00:10:53.750] - Agnieszka

I see it. And you know what was really beautiful about this? It is all still so vivid in your memory and as you say while you're talking, you're like literally and of course people who are listening on the podcast. You cannot see it, but you really have it, like, in front of you still. It's just still so alive. It's so beautiful.

[00:11:12.730] - Bill

Yeah. All that to say, there are two points I wanted to get to. That the story I just told, sort of spoke to. I didn't start trading until 1991. Three full years, right? Three years of immersion in the business. I mean, immersion in the business, learning all different aspects of it, all different nuances of it, before I ever placed a trade. You know, and I know the Internet has decimated the boundaries to get into this business called we call trading. And the people that are migrating into it without any they're going into a deep forest without a guide. And I don't fault them. They just don't know what they don't know. And that's okay. But it's important to find a guide to say, hey, look, I've been there, I've done that. Let me just kind of grab you by the hand and kind of walk you through this to help you not only understand that you need a plan if you're going to trade, but you better have some foundational things in place, too, and that are going to be more because this is a mind game. Trading can mess with your mind in a bad way, and if you don't have some foundational, mind and heart issues resolved and solidified as your base, your foundation, you're going to build your trading business on a faulty platform. That was number one. I wanted to speak to the fact that it used to take years before you would place a trade, and that time period, and it used to take a whole lot of capital before I could ever place a trade on the trading floor. Not only did it take years, I had to take a two week course at the Merck. I had to go in front of the board of governors that has seven person board of governors and be asked all sorts of questions. Once that was approved, I had to be on the trading floor with sort of a guide, a trader who would take you by the hand and walk and take you by the hand is the wrong word, but would be with you for two days and make sure that you've got a sense of what's going on there. And on top of that, you had to put up a back then you had to put up $50,000 with the Merck as a guarantee, like, hey, if you blow out your account, you would have your clearing firm who would process your trades. And then the Chicago Mercantile Exchange is the ultimate processor of the trades. So you had to put up money in your trading account with the company. But then the Merck, they wanted a $50,000 deposit. So in case you blue throat. So there were safeguards. There were so many safeguards and so many gauntlets. You had to go through before you placed a trade. All of those acted as barriers to entry that they're just gone. Those barriers to entry are completely gone.

[00:14:25.380] - Agnieszka

So you started trading, and you were successful right after all the things you ... Was it, like, immediate?

[00:14:33.890] - Bill

No, not at all. Not at all. That speaks to grit and sort of the learning curve that you got to go through. The first two years of trading, where I actually traded first initially was someplace called the Mid America Exchange, which was housed within the Chicago Board of. So my success at the the mantra back then was, if you can break even your first year, first year, you're doing great. And that's what I did my first year, I broke even. Second year, I made a little more money, and then that's when I went over to the Chicago Mercantile Exchange, and I started trading euro dollars. And back then, you either had to own or lease a membership known as a seat. So I don't know if that term is even still familiar nowadays. So in order to trade, there was a limited number of seats at the Merck, and every exchange had seats. And so to trade in whatever pit you wanted to trade in, depending on which pit you wanted to trade in, there were three different types of memberships, three different levels of seats. So I signed a six month lease to trade in euro dollars. And after the first month, I called the guy. I said, look, I'm done. I'm just not making enough money. I wasn't losing money, but I wasn't making money, and it wasn't clicking. And so this guy was I remember I just remember this guy. His name richard. He said, Bill, just I'm telling you, Bill, just stick it out. There's something I see something in you. Just stick it out. I think you can do it. So ultimately, I did give him back a seat, but here's, for me, I consider it providence, capital P. Providence. I had signed the seat back to him. Let's say we signed through the end of the month. I said, okay, on the 30th of the month, I'm giving the seat back to you. Well, in that last week of the month, I had a really great week. I thought, okay, there's something here, but now I got to give this guy a seat back. So I had to scramble to find another seat, and that was sort of the turning point that week. I can kind of look back as, okay, something happened here that week where maybe I just kind of caught onto something. And my success wasn't meteoric from there, but I had a good first year. The second year, I doubled my first year. My third year, I doubled my second year. And by year four, five, six, the numbers grew, and there were some within all of that. Going into late 90s, there was a real interest rate contraction. The market short term interest rate market really contracted, and the market was just super slow for a period of time. But all of that to say, overall, there were really good years throughout until we felt the electronic trading was sweeping the landscape. Come 2004, 2005, it's an incredible story.

[00:17:55.080] - Agnieszka

And I think you're so passionate about it, so it's really great to hear all the details. So you finally achieved a success, and I think that pivotal point from what you're saying, I recognize something that I see also with other traders, that the moment that the pressure is off, traders tend to perform better. So maybe that moment where you said, okay, I'm going to quit this, that's when the pressure was off, and that's where you had this great week.

[00:18:28.130] - Bill

That's a great observation. That really is. That really is a great observation. And I think another thing to turn that screw a little more, it also helps for those who are just getting into this realm, have other sources of revenue. I had finished college. I was working a couple of jobs. In the evenings, I was living at home, helping my we had my grandmother was living with us, so my mom needed help with that. So it worked out well where I was able to live at home, help out with the bills at the house. I didn't need the trading income at that time. Right. I was 21, 22 years old, living at home. So it's not like I didn't have a lot of overhead. So any pressure you have any 22 year olds? And I hope 22 year olds today feel that same pressure. The pressure like, okay, I need to get active and start my life and get this thing going, whatever this is for them. I certainly felt that need with trading because I had a huge passion for it. I really felt I could be good at it. But there wasn't a crushing need to make money right away. It was more of a desire, of course, who doesn't want to whatever endeavor you're in, presumably you're endeavoring to not just make money, but to perform well.

[00:19:49.630] - Agnieszka

So what happened after? So then you left the trading floor, and what was the next step?

[00:19:56.380] - Bill

Yeah. Between 2004 or five, six, seven, I was on and off the trading floor. But I started to see these floods of people coming into this space because I would see all of these Infomercials TV commercials for trading platforms. Because I'm contemplating the shift between going from trading on the trading floor to trading on a computer screen. So as I'm contemplating that shift, I had taken some time, done some deep analysis. If I don't trade anymore, what are some things I want to do? And I listed three things that I wanted to do. Let me talk about a second. But as I was on my way to do those three things, the different three different career paths that I thought would be career number two, I started to see all of these infomercials and all that for different trading. Platforms like trade this platform and you know the commercials I'm talking about where the guy or gals on the golf course or sitting on the beach all the free time for your family. Those commercials, I was incensed when I saw those commercials. That was 2004, 2006, seven, eight, something like that.

[00:21:09.740] - Agnieszka

Okay. At that time, I had no idea about the market. I have not seen any commercial, and I was in the Netherlands at the time. So keep going.

[00:21:20.170] - Bill

Yeah, this is about the time know those people that were in software development or whatnot knew, okay, well, here's a new market for us to exploit. And I'm not saying exploit in a negative way. I'm saying what new opportunities, right? Yeah, of course. This thing called trading is going from this open out crisis system where people are yelling and screaming to an electronic platform, and there's going to be a wide market of people who are going to want to learn about and how to do it. I started to explore, okay, do I want to buy a trading system? Do I want to develop my own trading system, whatever it might be. So I started going to some conventions and different day long seminars on different things that had the reality is the most part is a lot of them were sales pitches, right? You sit and you watch. This is how our trading platform works. Look how well it did at picking the highs and the lows. Well, great, we can all do that. And when they start the conference with, hey, everybody, hold your questions off to the very end, that's when you know, like, okay, well, maybe there's a problem with their coming. As someone who's been in the business for, at that time, 1617 years, like, okay, I can see the value in their product, but I can also see how they're pitching it to a room full of people that are. And sure enough, the presentation would end and 810 twelve people go to the back of the room and plunk down $3,000 on the credit card. And I saw this happening time and time again. So I wrote an article, and the article was posted in a Christian magazine with national distribution. And the article was just a cautionary tale. And it was, in essence, like, look, okay, this new world of trading is going to look a lot differently than it did before. The barriers to entry are going to disappear. Anybody that has a laptop or Internet access is going to be able to, in a matter of probably 30 minutes, fill out some application, connect their checking account to it. This is when I really became incensed. I went to A, and I won't mention the name of the company because they're actually very well known in the trading education space where I went to A one day seminar where they talked about this was more about trading education, and they were advising people to trade their IRA money. Like, okay, take your money out of your IRA and put it into your trading account. As soon as I saw that, somebody's got to say something here. I'm 30 some years old, and how am I the adult in the room? So, like I said, I wrote this article, and it was a faith based Christian magazine. It dealt with the financial like a financial magazine for the Christian realm. And it was published in there, and it was a very long article. I've done a lot of writing over the course of my over my life, and it got published. It was such a long article, it had to take two two issues for it to be fully published. And at the end, I said, if you have any questions, contact me at this email address. Almost 200 people contacted me, and they contact me with questions from everything like, hey, I'm exploring trading to I sold my business, and I lost all my money trading. So I saw this. I'm like, what do I do with this? So I just started gathering these emails, and some people included their phone numbers. I started calling them like, okay, tell me your story. And one guy I called one phone call, very vividly. The guy says, I sold my company for just over $300,000, and money's gone. I started trading it. The money's gone. And I thought, oh, wow. And then I heard the story again, and then I heard another story again, and I can tell you, I know personally this isn't theoretical. I personally know traders from the trading floor who had net worth of between five and $10 million who are now broke. And I don't mean like, okay, they are dead broke because they could not give up the ghost of the success they had on the trading floor. They thought it'd be instant on the computer screen, and they could not make that transition. And I'm not being hyperbolic here. So I wrote this cautionary tale, like I said, and just so many people contacted me, and I thought, okay, what do I do with this?

[00:25:53.970] - Agnieszka

So what did you do with this? Did you started coaching them?

[00:25:57.670] - Bill

Yeah. So the people that contacted me again, we were all coming from the same position of faith, right? It was a Christian magazine. So these people were positions of faith. We share the same ideology. And so I just sort of did a rear view mirror look of the principles and guidelines I had used throughout the course of my trading career that I believe were sort of guide rails and the tailwind to my success, right? Guide rails that kept me within the right lane and the wind at my back, so to speak. And I did this in a very short period of time, and I put together what I thought was going to be just a long essay. It turned out to be almost a 60 or 70,000 word book that at the time I called it The Ten Biblical Principles for Trading Success. It talked about the ten principles that I felt were, like I said, the guidelines, the guardrails for my success, as well as the tailwind at my back. And then I also wrote about the trading traps, the things that you don't know about, right? The things that you haven't encountered yet, the things you don't know that you dont know.

[00:27:07.550] - Agnieszka

Is that the book that was just published a few weeks ago?

[00:27:12.170] - Bill

That was the precursor to that. So I wrote that book, and just real quickly here then I contacted all the people that had contacted me. I said, look, I wrote this book. I'm not going to publish it, but I'll give you the work that I created. And if you want to do, we'll just do like a two week informal course where I'll just sort of walk you through the book and we'll meet 3 hours a night for two weeks in a row. And I'd be happy to just sort of do that for you folks because I think it's important that we do so 2030 people or so in different segments, not all at once. So I just sort of started coaching these folks, and some of the coaching continued beyond that. And so just to sort of put a period to this, once that was done, I put that on the shelf, an electronic shelf, so to speak, because it's an electronic format, because I wanted to explore those three businesses that I had sort of identified early on or when I was leaving the trading floor. I wanted to explore those businesses. And once two of those three businesses, I own multiple rental properties and I own a commercial and residential cleaning company. Why I wanted to it's just getting to know thyself. I just knew that I wanted to own rental real estate, property, and I knew I wanted to own a cleaning company. And so I started these two businesses. I've grown them over the course of the last 1012 years or something like that. And now they're at the point where and I knew about a year ago, I thought throughout the course of the last ten years or so, I knew that book was it was always there. It was calling me. I'm like, I know the time will be right. And about a year ago, it was like, okay, now's the time to get that book back off the shelf, dust it off, reedit it. That's what I did. So I revamped it a bit. And now it's called The Twelve Biblically Inspired Principles for Trading Success. Because I added a couple more. Well, it's called trading with faith. The Twelve Biblically Inspired Principles of Trading Success. I'm reaching back out to folks that are looking to be coached from just like a. Married couple would probably reach out to if their faith and they want to approach counseling from a faith based perspective. I've seen that people within the trading realm want to have somebody that speaks their language, so to speak.

[00:29:47.920] - Agnieszka

Okay, so let's talk about it a little bit more. But before we do, I want to ask you, so while you were developing those two businesses, right, that's quite a lot on your plate. You were still trading right, for yourself. How did you combine those two?

[00:30:03.490] - Bill

What I was doing was I was searching for a trading methodology that fit within my new paradigm. Right. So I knew the products that I wanted to trade, commodity futures. Right. That's just sort of my background. So I knew I wanted to trade commodity futures. And specifically, I'm talking about S P futures, Nasdaq futures, gold futures, currency futures, and the know the grain futures. So I knew that was the product that I wanted to trade. But I needed to find a new methodology that was in sync with the fact that I've got two businesses to run. So it took time, and I was taking more time. Just daily looking at the charts, looking for trying to identify my new high probability trades. Right. What are the triggers I'm going to be looking for? The chart generated triggers that I'm going to look for that are going to be my high probability trades. And so each evening and I've been doing this for ten plus years, I would just look at the same 1520 charts and just keep making notes identifying the high probability trades that I'm seeing emerging. And I just kept keeping a catalog of these things, or growing and growing catalog of these things. And then about a year ago, I started actively trading again. But the methodology which I trade now is I'm only placing between two and five trades a month. I'm not looking to actively scalp the market. I'm not necessarily looking for intraday trades, even though sometimes they might happen. So that's an important thing for people to hear. Find the methodology that works within your current paradigm. Right. Most people have a nine to five, and they're not going to just walk away. I would advise them, don't walk away from your nine to five, but find a method trading methodology that fits within your paradigm and nurture it, develop it, study it, and just come to know it better than anything else.

[00:32:14.510] - Agnieszka

Yeah. Because at some point, once you do that and this way kind of organically integrated into your life, it is so much easier to make the transition. When you notice that you start making money, the transition is much more organic and easier. There is no push, no stress, no mass. I have to make it. It just all disturbs. And I think it is with everything in life like that, the more organic, you let the things happen. Maybe not even I take the word organic out because the more you let things happen by itself and don't push too much, things are kind of being taken care of, if that makes sense. At least that's how I experience in my life and it just makes sort of effortless action.

[00:33:10.510] - Bill

Yeah, and that makes total sense. And that can happen best in an environment where you don't need to make money trading. Where you want to make money trading. Right, right. If you put yourself in a position of need, what you just described becomes a whole lot more difficult to unfold.

[00:33:27.050] - Agnieszka

I totally understand. I've been there because I was one of the people who have done exactly what you were describing and I cut myself off of the income that I had and decided to be a day trader. So I did go, I have chosen the difficult path.

[00:33:44.390] - Bill

Yeah. Well, the difficult path seems to be the one that has the most lessons on it.

[00:33:48.990] - Agnieszka

That's true, that's true.

[00:33:50.240] - Bill

There's something good in all of that.

[00:33:52.280] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And so I discovered later on that was the path, it wasn't the path of the least resistance that I used to choose in my life, but the other way around. I have changed it. And I must say my life became much easier now and I actually achieve much more with that and move forward much quicker. So that's very interesting. So what I am really keen to hear from you because you're talking about the biblical principles and how your faith helped you to achieve success. Can you tell me more about it? Because I actually grew up as a Catholic, so I am very interested in how did you even made that connection. 

[00:34:34.500] - Bill

Ye so, just to touch on what you said. So it was the Apostle Paul that said the fruit of the spirit. You mentioned multiple fruits, but three of them are peace, patience and self control. You couldn't name three more important characteristics for success in trading and success in relationships, success in all areas of life. And so I didn't believe that my faith should come off the shelf one Sunday a month or one Sunday a week for a couple of hours and then be put back on the shelf. There was a gentleman named Larry Burkett who wrote a book years ago, and I'm talking about late 80s, early 1990s, a book called Business by the Book and the book capital B, the Bible. So he was the first one that I discovered sort of made this connection of, look, our faith, our Christian faith, it's not just for the pastors and the priests. We as people in the business world, we have the mandate of stewardship of our time, talent and treasure. And we also have, like I talked about, I remember I said you've got the guardrails and the wind at your back. So the Apostle Paul wrote, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. So going back to when I was just starting college, I started this thing, a morning routine, and I became more disciplined as I grew older, but a morning routine that included just time in prayer and Bible reading. And as I entered into trading and I came across Larry Briquette's book, Business by the Book, I thought I sort of realized, yes, this is what I'm looking for. It's not exactly what I'm looking for, but it's this recognition that my Christian faith, it's not just for Sunday mornings. It can come with me to work, and it can have within it these guidelines. Like I said, I'm going to read some of the verses that were really important to me. And they're just the kernel that we can expound upon. But be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Take every thought captive. That's from the Bible, the Old Testament, and even the New Testament time and again refers to meditation. One of the very first Bible verses I memorized was Psalm one, one through three. And it talks about the prosperous man or woman is the one and prosperous. I'm not the prosperity preacher, right? Prosperity is peace. Prosperity is financial. Prosperity is internal peace. Prosperity is not just for the material realm. It's for all your relational realm. And people get when you get that out of skewed, it creates all sorts of problems. But the prosperous man is the one who meditates on the word of God. And Psalm one, it talks about that very explicitly. Some other verses that I think were really interesting that I held onto was when I was in beginning of my business. If you look at going back to an Old Testament verse, Leviticus, it talks about when you enter into a new land. Remember, this is an agrarian society back then. Right. These are people that grew crops and raised livestock, and that was their currency. Right. That was their business. Right. And spices, that was the currency of the day. And one of these verses that I read that I really held onto that sort of gave me hope was when you enter the land and plant any kind of fruit tree, regard its fruit as forbidden for three years, you are to consider forbidden. It must not be eaten. So for three years, plant your vineyards, plant your trees, and for three years, don't touch the fruit of your trees. Let it grow. Well, what a great, like full of metaphors, right? Yeah. What a great lesson for any business. Right. Even when I started my cleaning company and my rental property business, especially in trading, because in trading, anybody who's watched Shark Tank knows the term scale. You want to scale your business. The way you scale in trading is to add more size to your positions. Well, the only way you can add more size to your positions is if you have more money in your account.

[00:38:57.020] - Agnieszka

That's right.

[00:38:57.680] - Bill

And in order to do that, it's hands off. Leave your hands off that money and if you can let it grow for three years, great. And I would even say give it five years, because the first couple of years is going to be education. The market is going to extract tuition. Right? The market needs its tuition. Yeah.

[00:39:21.940] - Agnieszka

And that's what's often forgotten, right, the tuition. It's like, whatever new career or whatever new thing you learn, you have to pay for it. And that's a lot of time. It's forgotten that just becoming a trader is a very costly education. I'm not talking about paying the actual education, but the on the job training because of the losses, which are basically investment in your business. But that is something that a lot of time is forgotten. Definitely.

[00:39:54.590] - Bill

I am unapologetic in my belief, especially today, because as I look back on my trading career, there were no trading coaches. I started seeing the emergence of three trading coaches back right around the late 1990s, and I can there was Brett Dr. Brett I can't think of his last name. There was a gal, and then there was Doug Hirschhorn. Those that are in the trading realm might know who Doug Hirschhorn is. Doug Hirschhorn was a floor trader. He played Division One baseball, I believe, and he was one of the first people entering this trading coaching space. Now, late 1990s, I'm already having a fantastic career. As I sit here, I can look back and say, I can tell you my single biggest regret as a trader was not hiring a trading coach. And I'm telling you that's someone who was making seven figures a year on several years is saying that because I knew that I could perform even better. I knew that I was good and getting better. And as I look back when I first met Doug Hershhorn again, this idea of a trading coach was completely new to me. And I had met he goes by Doctor. I had met him, and he was just beginning his career as a coach. And at the time, he was $5,000. He was $5,000 to hire as a coach. I thought, wow, that seems like a kind of a steep price tag. And I didn't disregard him as Tiger Woods has a swing coach. His swing coach doesn't play professional golf. The fact that he wasn't a professional trader didn't matter to me. Yeah, I wanted someone who could pull a better performance out of me and why I didn't pull the trigger and hire him at the time, because now he's 25,000, 30,000 minimum. But looking back on my career, that is my single biggest regret, is that I didn't hire a trading coach even when I was having very good success. So I say that because we were talking about tuition a little while ago. The market is going to extract tuition from you. It will. The question is, can you minimize the tuition you pay while maximizing the benefit that you learn? And I am unapologetic that a trading coach, one that you connect with. Just like if you're going to a counselor, just like if you're hiring a coach for yourself, a golf coach, or your children's athletics, find one that you jive well with. Like I said, in my world, those that we speak the same language, so to speak, we're coming from the same position of faith, that we're not afraid to incorporate the tenets of our faith within that. In the course of writing that first book, I was doing, just digging, digging, doing research, I came across a gentleman named Dr. Derek de la Pena, and he wrote a book called Sports Psychology and the Scriptures. And it was the first book I finally came across, like, whoa, there is somebody else out there who's speaking the same language now. He was speaking to athletes. And I've long held the position that there are so many ways to equate traders with athletes. Specifically, the best corollary I have is a trader is like a batter at the plate. There are so many corollaries to that batter standing at the plate right there's, pitches coming at you. Each one of those pitches represents a trading opportunity. Each swing represents an initiation of contact with the market. There are so many corollaries to the two that I was so excited. So I got that book. I tracked this guy down, Dr. Derek Phil Pena. And he and I have had conversations ever since. So I'm like, finally there's somebody who's speaking the language that I'm trying to talk about. And this field of incorporating your faith, there are so many studies being done right now in the context of how does prayer, one's faith, their belief system? People forgive me for the way I'm about to say this because I'm going to use the wrong word. How can that be used to better your trading performance? I think of it better as how do we steward the talents and treasures we've been given to maximize the opportunities we have before us? Like I said, we are stewards of our time, talent and treasure. And that's whether you are an accountant, a trader, or a plumber, you have time and you have talents and you have treasure. You are a steward of those things. I would want someone who recognizes that as part of the belief system to work with. There's all sorts of studies being done that incorporate faith and performance.

[00:45:20.870] - Agnieszka

Yeah, I think whether it's trading or any other performance, that has to do with a high degree of mental performance, as in sport, like, let's say golf, for example. Yes, you have to train your muscle memory and a certain swing, and that is the physical part. But the mental part is so much bigger because we know that if we don't keep our thoughts in rain, then they can take off, gain momentum, and take us places where we don't want to be. And I think whether it's prayer or meditation, as you say, because there are different ways to quiet your mind. And I personally meditate, which I find incredibly effective just in taking a distance, to take a distance from things and give it a minute. Whether it's trading, whether you are conversing with someone, whether you're making any decision in life that gives so much more peace inside, where you can actually take a moment right, where you don't feel pushed like, oh, I have. To make a decision where you don't feel rushed to take a trade because you know that it's enough opportunities out there and you always have to act in your best interest and that moment and that quiet mind really helps you to do that. That is how I at least experienced that. And from the article you have sent me, that's kind of confirmed by the research, right? That when you are meditating or praying that your focus or the signals in your brain actually go to more the rational area, the frontal front of your brain, which helps you make more rational decisions and not stay in your emotional zone. Right. I think there was this phrase used, it helps you to stay in the zone. And isn't that what every trader wants?

[00:47:38.050] - Bill

I'm so glad you brought that up, because that article I sent you, the observation that you just made was one of the biggest surprises that I came across. I fully anticipated. So if you're listening and you're able to if you touch the back of your head, that's the back of your head is the fight or flight, the emotional area, that's where when emotions are high. If you were to attach electrodes to your head right now and you were to be in a highly emotional state, that's the area of your head that would light up. I was shocked to read, and I thought in prayer that that would be the area that would light up. Well, it turns out no, it's actually the frontal lobe. So if you touch, like, just above your eyes where your temples are, that's where you make executive decisions. That's where you make rational decisions. That's where you follow checklists. That's where things get accomplished in a very perfunctory way. Prayer lights up that part of the brain which totally shocked me. One of the things that I talked about with students a while back and that I want to talk about now with folks that I come across is the goal of trading without emotions, I think is a misnomer. I view emotions as a God given gift, right? When you close out a good trade, you want to enjoy it, you want to relish in it. And if you trade without emotion or temperature, I think that's a misnomer. I think a better way to say it is when you trade, you want to light up the part of your brain that is in the executive function and not in the emotional state. So if you're in an emotional state, and you're trading. The best way to move that activity, brain activity, to the front of your brain, is through some sort of checklist. Atul gawande wrote a book called the checklist manifesto. It's a great book. It's a very entertaining read. Talks about the power of checklists. So I created a checklist based on the acronym simplify. Simplify your trading. I wrote an article about it. It got posted in a whole bunch of online forms years ago, simplified. So as you're emotional, as you find yourself, let me set a scenario. So here's the scenario. You've got a trade set up coming on your screen, and it's a high probability trade, one that's worked well for you in the past, but the last two or three have gone south. Now you're seeing it unfold again. You're like, back of the brain is lit up. Do I really want to engage with this if I've lost the last two or three? The best way to overcome that, to light up a different part of your brain, is to engage with the market in a checklist kind of way. So I created the simplified checklist. So s you're scanning your charts. I you're identifying your high probability trade. M you're mapping out that trade. What's my entry point? What's my exit point? What's my risk reward ratio? What's my stop loss? What's my objective? First objective, et cetera. P is pull the trigger. And I've got a whole conversation around how to pull the trigger even within that state. L is let it breathe. Whenever I say, that the phrase let it breathe. When I was in the trading pit, you didn't have many friends in the trading pit. I'll just say that right now, right? You can be friends outside of the trading pit. When you got in the trading pit, you weren't friends. But there was one guy, he and I still get together a few times a year for coffee if I had kind of a big position on. And he saw I was kind of excited and I was bidding or offering heavy in the market, he would just turn to me, bill, let it breathe. Let it breathe. He's like, just calm down. Let this trade do its thing. So I always get a chuckle out of the l portion of let it breathe. So you pulled the trigger. You've got the trade on. Let it breathe. Let it do what it's going to do. It might go up a little bit. It might go down a little bit, but just let it breathe. I is isolate your feelings. Write down what am I feeling? How am I feeling right now? And the eye, the isolated feelings, the activity around that is based more about getting your hand off the trigger and more about just letting the trade breathe. Right. Isolating your feelings by you're writing about it. You're journaling about it, and you may never read that again, and that's okay. But it's more about keeping your hand off that darn trigger so you can let the trade breathe. F is focus on your rules. Just let the rules unfold and then close out the trade in whatever way it is. And then why is you take some time for you. In the pre conversation here, we talked about the idea of rest. Sometimes you need to take rest within the course of a day. Sometimes you need to take rest at the end of the day. Sometimes you need to take extended rest in the middle of a week or a month or year. So by engaging with a checklist, something that's structured and focusing on a checklist and people feel free to take my simplified checklist. As you focus on a checklist, you take the activity away from the back of your brain and now you've moved it to the front of your brain where it just becomes perfunctory. I just need to walk down this path and engage with the market in a ways I've already described. And I think this is something that people can put to use right away.

[00:52:52.840] - Agnieszka

That's awesome.

[00:52:58.970] - Bill

Within that is another acronym that we can talk about at another time. But that's a good takeaway.

[00:53:06.130] - Agnieszka

Thank you so much for sharing that. So for anyone who is interested into looking into it and also hear about the twelve principles right. Get the checklist. And there is much more in the book where do people can find it?

[00:53:25.010] - Bill

So my website is tradingcoachbillpro.com.

[00:53:28.610] - Agnieszka

All right, we will put the link also in the description.

[00:53:31.530] - Bill

Oh yeah, or you can email me at [email protected]. That's [email protected]. Yeah, reach out to me. I always enjoy talking with people. There are so many things that you can tell. I'm passionate about trading, passionate about the trading world, passionate about I've got no shortage of passion for this business and for helping people in it. Like I said, I am unapologetic that folks in this business. Like I said, my biggest regret was when I was already making a lot of money when training coaches first came out that I didn't hire one. Especially nowadays for people that are just getting in it, find somebody that you connect with. I don't care if it's not me. Find somebody you connect with. One of the things I really love about your program is the idea of accountability that you provide as an aspect of your coaching. There are so many studies now about accountability and how that propels your success in this business or any other. So anyway, all that to say, thank you so much for having me.

[00:54:32.870] - Agnieszka

Thank you. Absolutely. So people can get your book basically through your website, right?

[00:54:38.200] - Bill

Right.

[00:54:38.810] - Agnieszka

It's "Trading With Faith: 12 Biblically Inspired Principles for Trading Success". I'll put the link in the description and well, that brings us to the end of this episode. Thank you Bill, so much for such an interesting conversation.

[00:54:57.480] - Bill

Thank you.

[00:54:58.340] - Agnieszka

I really hope that for everyone who listens, you see that you can strengthen your trading performance and achieve success in many different ways just to understand that what really matters is not which way exactly you choose, but that you strongly believe in it. And I think you have seen so much passion from Bill in what he believes in. And I think that is really so important, because the belief and I'm not talking about the faith, but whatever you believe in, whether it is your faith or whether it is some other principles in life, your beliefs is what guides your action. And if you want to achieve success in trading or otherwise in life, anywhere, make sure that your beliefs align with what you want. Thank you so much Bill, for joining us today. I really truly enjoyed this.

[00:56:01.090] - Bill

Thank you.

[00:56:01.490] - Agnieszka

Lots of good food for thought that's for sure.

[00:56:06.610] - Bill

it's an area know people haven't really explored. But I'm grateful that you took the time to speak with me today. I'm really grateful,

[00:56:16.880] - Agnieszka

Absolutely! I really enjoy having you here and thank you so much for your time coming here and telling your story. Thank you for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. If you enjoy my show, please review it and rate it on Apple podcasts and be sure to subscribe so you can come back for a real-life conversation in the next episode. Until then, this is Agnieszka Wood from Ahead Coach. And don't forget, you too can realize your dream without looting yourself and your confidence in the process.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/

A lot of traders dream about trading and traveling the world as trading brings a lot of freedom. But is this really laying with a laptop on the beach with a tropical drink?

In this episode of The Confidence in Trading Podcast, we dive into the exciting world of trading while traveling with our guest, Peter Vandiver, a trader who dared to break the boundaries of conventional trading.

Peter’s traveled from his home country, the USA, through Europe, Asia, and even down under in Australia. And now from the other part of the globe, he will humorously dispel all the myths of trading and traveling for us and share his perspective on how it really looks.

Get valuable insights on how to prepare for trading in different time zones, tips for trading on the go, and factors to consider when choosing your destinations. Plus, find out whether internet connectivity and varying market conditions pose any challenges.

So, buckle up and prepare for an exhilarating ride as we venture into the world of global trading!

About Peter Vandiver

Peter Vandiver is a day trader from Charleston, South Carolina. He’s been dedicated full time to trading for 2 years now, with about 5 years of experience trading. Prior to trading full time, Peter spent about 10 years working for tech companies building products. Some of those products were for traders and investors, and it’s possible the trading systems you use today may have been worked on by Peter. He’s also an avid traveler, who is half way through a trip around the world, currently in Tbilisi, Georgia. He’s also a writer and a fitness junkie.

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

—

Transcript

[00:00:04.170] - Agnieszka

Welcome back to another episode of Confidence in Trading, the podcast where we deep dive into different perspectives to help you navigate through this fascinating but challenging world of trading. I am your host, Agnieszka Wood, and today we have a special story to share with you. Join us as we embark on a captivating journey with a trader who has taken his trading to a global level. Welcome to episode Trading Across Borders. Today my guest is Peter Vandiver. Hi, Peter, welcome to my show!

[00:00:37.880] - Peter

Hello. Thank you for having me.

[00:00:40.110] - Agnieszka

Peter, you have been trading since five years, but full-time since two. And prior to trading, you worked for technical companies and you were building products, which some of them were for traders and investors, is that right?

[00:00:55.520] - Peter

Yeah, that's right. So I was working for a couple of different tech companies and sort of like tech adjacent companies, I guess you could say, some of them in the trading and investing space. And I worked on some of the teams that evolved the systems and products that people use to trade. So, yeah, you might use one, maybe. Depends on what platform you're on.

[00:01:17.690] - Agnieszka

That's cool. That's really cool. I am so excited to have you here today because you are currently doing what many people, who are getting into trading have been dreaming of for years, that is, trading while traveling the world. And you are originally from Charleston, South Carolina, but that's not where you are currently, correct? Can you tell us where you are and how did that come about?

[00:01:43.810] - Peter

Yeah, that's right. So currently I'm in Tbilisi, Georgia, which for those who are not up to step on their geography, it's sort of between Russia and Turkey near the Black Sea. Yeah. I've been traveling for, I think it's three months now. Prior to this, I was in Australia and Bali and spent a little bit of time in Dubai. Decided to kind of just pick up things and travel for a while. Kind of got bored of just like, trading in my house, more or less, so wanted to mix it up. I've done a lot of traveling through my life, COVID happened, didn't do any traveling and so now that I don't have. A regular day job, I just kind of decided to commit and get as much in as I could. It's been pretty eye opening to travel and trade. I think people often think of the bubble they're in when they're trading and how if they change little things about their environment, it impacts their trading. But it's intense when you pick up all your stuff and move it halfway around the world for a month, try to trade somewhere else.

[00:02:57.130] - Agnieszka

I cannot even imagine what impact it has on trading because for me, even if I change my daily routine at home, right, if for some reason, I don't know, I will go to a party and then get up later than normal and just kind of mix up my morning routine. I can already see the impact on how I feel and then how I stand in front of my computer. So changing completely your whole rhythm, your time zones, your environment, and not being in your own having your own setup and everything. It's even hard to imagine how that influences you. But we'll talk about it more in details before we get there. I actually have a question about at what point did you think, okay, now it's time to do it? Because many traders have this idea I want to travel, but then they are not consistent yet, and they think like, okay, I first have to make it. I have to first be successful in order to actually make that step. Was it also for you or you thought, you know what, this is what I always wanted to do and I'm just going to do it.

[00:04:05.090] - Peter

Yeah. I think you have to weigh your financial circumstance first if trading is your primary stream of income and you don't have much of a cushion, then I think traveling could incur some costs that would definitely impact your thought processes while you're trading. I think I'm lucky in regards to having an alternate revenue stream that provides enough to make traveling. I can't buy champagne when I go out to the restaurants, but I can cover some of the expenses so that allows me to commit to. Traveling without being a successful trader. I'm still not, I'd say to the point where I'm making the kind of money I want to make from trading, I'd say I'm consistently flat trader. Yeah, so it wasn't hard for me to pull the trigger, but a lot of it had to do with the fact that I already had financial cushion and have a revenue stream alternative to trading.

[00:05:08.710] - Agnieszka

Okay, so alternative sources of income. I hear this coming back a lot with traders who are still building their career to successful trading, that it is really important. And from the mindset perspective, it is so key to have some other income, especially when you start, when you try to build your consistency so that you don't have that pressure of I have to pay my bills. And was that always your dream to trade and travel? Because you trade for a living for two years now. Did you always think about it or was it just more I like traveling and trading is something what I do.

[00:05:46.770] - Peter

Yeah. I think it's more of the second. I love to travel. Trading is something that happens a lot in my life. I don't think I'll be a permanent traveler. I think if you had to say I love something, I love not being tied down to anything, which takes the shape of traveling around a lot and seeking things like trading as a means of income. Yeah.

[00:06:10.150] - Agnieszka

And a day trading. Right. You're also not tied up to something for too long.

[00:06:15.130] - Peter

Yeah. Don't bring that swing stuff in. I don't want any of that.

[00:06:20.570] - Agnieszka

Is it not being bound for too long, or is it the immediate reward? Which one?

[00:06:26.970] - Peter

I don't know. We'll have to consult my mother. I think at this point, I'm not entirely sure.

[00:06:34.590] - Agnieszka

Okay, I hear some backstory there, but let's keep focus on traveling. So is the reality the way you have pictured it? Sometimes you see people trading at the pool and being on the beach and relaxing, chilling in a hammock and trading. Is this how you experience traveling and trading?

[00:07:01.180] - Peter

No, I'm pretty sure those people are just like trying to create a facade. To click on their Instagram story. I still need a quiet environment where I can focus that's absolute. And then during the week, I don't do a whole lot of vacation related activities. I'll go to a museum here or there, go meet someone for dinner but I'm not going out and partying. I'm still trying to keep my mind. Quick witted for when I do trade for a couple of hours in the evenings. And that has proved me well. I think initially the changes that come with a new environment impacted me pretty intensely. But I've been through a couple moves I guess you could say, and they don't really impact me as much. And I'm starting to wonder if that has created some type of resilience in me. I've noticed it in other kind of problems, area problem areas that I track that have dissipated a bit in recent months. So I'm wondering if maybe shaking things up, making my bubble, shifting my bubble and forcing me to go through that practice has, in a way, made me. Kind of get past a sensitivity I had. I would say I probably was more on the sensitive end. If you were to rank traders on how sensitive they are to environmental changes. I was probably very sensitive, I'd say I'm probably less sensitive, obviously now. And I think that's probably showing through. It's kind of hard to say exactly what causes the changes, the outcomes in your trading, but I think that's playing a role.

[00:08:46.190] - Agnieszka

So you build kind of immunity to changing the environment and different factors impacting how you feel.

[00:08:53.190] - Peter

Right, I think so.

[00:08:56.890] - Agnieszka

That's interesting. One thing that we talk about how the travel influences your trading, and now you're saying, I travel and I don't do much like the travel related stuff, like the like if you go to a different location, of course you want to see as much as possible, especially if you fly all the way to Australia. And I think you've been to Bali as well, right? So does actually trading influences your travel? Did you imagine your travel to look like that? Or did you think, like, oh, I will see so much of the country, and now you're kind of thinking, if I do that, then my trading is going to suffer.

[00:09:40.730] - Peter

Well, so trading is my priority. The travel is great, and I'm lucky to have the opportunity, but for me trading is the priority. So that means on a day where I'm trading, that's going to dictate the activities for that day. Doesn't mean I don't like, go outside, but I'm going to get good sleep, I'm going to get some exercise, I'm going to eat well. I'm going to do some reading, maybe some meditation review trades. Right. The standard day where I trade, and that's the priority. And where space is available, I slide in which there's plenty of I slide in all sorts of activities. I go visit various places, try to meet up with people, see the sites. 

[00:10:28.910] - Agnieszka

Okey, yeah. Because otherwise why would you travel? Right. If you would just stay home, then you can stay just home and do that, right? Yeah.

[00:10:38.430] - Peter

I mean, you're still only trading like a couple of hours a day, so there's still plenty of time. It's just a matter of what activities you pick and which ones are going to impact your trading negatively.

[00:10:48.470] - Agnieszka

So for our listeners, you're trading futures and options, is that correct?

[00:10:55.090] - Peter

Yes.

[00:10:56.470] - Agnieszka

So what kind of challenges did you encounter when you moved to the other side of the Earth in terms of the time zone? Because I think you actually had to switch your strategy. Right? Did you ever even think about it, that this will be the case?

[00:11:15.050] - Peter

No. So before I left, I was trading futures of the US Indices during regular market hours as well as options on stocks during regular market hours. Obviously, if I go to Australia, I can't trade stocks because the stock market is closed while I am awake, but the futures markets are open. So I spent some time running through data back testing. My strategy against overnight sessions, early morning sessions for futures, and the setup that I primarily focus on worked is there I did not do enough back testing over different market regimes. So an issue I ran into was volatility kind of got sucked out of the market mid-spring if you pull up an S&P 500 chart and, you can see there's a string of days in there where pretty tight average daily range. Right. And so that impacted how well my setup worked, even in the overnight sessions. So it was tougher than I was expecting. I was expecting there to be less setups, I'd have to be more patient, which I think actually had some other effects on me that were positive in. The long run, but ultimately things just were harder and it really just comes back to not doing enough back testing. And I wish I had somehow found a way to simulate trading in those overnight sessions before I went to prepare, because the way the candles move, the way the price moves is just different. I didn't realize how reliant I was on spastic. Movements of price to indicate a potential change is coming, or like a violent movement of a candle where someone's probably placing massive orders on the tape right. As those being kind of things. Maybe they were kind of like in the background of my head. I wasn't truly aware of them as being key to my setup reading. And now they kind of are. Now I can articulate them because I took them away and was going, oh my God, what's wrong here?

[00:13:28.370] - Agnieszka

Yeah, what's wrong with the market?

[00:13:30.290] - Peter

Right.

[00:13:32.550] - Agnieszka

So you were talking about switching your strategy, but also when you switched the time zone, how did it affected you personally, physically? Were you as effective and efficient and did you feel the same way when you were trading?

[00:13:48.830] - Peter

You know, once I got past the massive jet lag that you experienced from flying from the US to Australia. Which took a while. I did feel pretty normal though. Trading in the evenings is different than trading in the morning. I think it took a while for me to get used to that. I don't have as much of attention span in the evening as I do during the day.

[00:14:15.490] - Agnieszka

Did you know that about?

[00:14:17.190] - Peter

No, no, I had no idea. And then I think also just not like knowing what's going on, what the big moves are happening without just checking Twitter or whatever to the news. Right. Not being as tapped into that had. Some sort of residual effect on my confidence. I don't think it actually had any material effect on my trading, but it was something I was used to. So it just made me feel like. I wasn't aware of where the market was at.

[00:14:49.840] - Agnieszka

Like you were out of the loop..

[00:14:52.140] - Peter

Right.

[00:14:52.880] - Agnieszka

Any other challenges that you encountered while you were overseas? Like maybe, let's say the technical setup. Normally you have your desk, you have your chair, and now suddenly you are in a rented apartment or a hotel and you have your laptop. I think I can imagine you taking an extra screen or something.

[00:15:12.900] - Peter

Yeah, so I have a laptop and then I fly with like a smaller screen that I can plug in that hopefully doesn't get busted up by the airline crews who moved the luggage around. But so far it's working. It's got a little crack in it move, but it still works. So fingers crossed it'll make it the rest of the way. Yeah. So that's less screens from what I was trading before so I had to kind of mix up just like what my setup was. For monitoring price action while I trade, which hasn't been as challenging as I was expecting. That's been pretty straightforward. I think one thing that came to light is I was expecting it to be easier to trade other assets from other countries. So I had done research, done some backtesting, analyzed other major Indices, the Hang Seng, the DAX, the FTSE, and was more or less ready to trade those. But it's not as easy to get hooked up to trade as it is in the States. The brokerages are far more expensive elsewhere as well as the volatility is just not as good. And I think the takeaway there is I just didn't realize how much better just trading is in the US. It's just a better environment all around.

[00:16:41.330] - Agnieszka

Speaking of better and something what I think we take for granted, how was your internet connection?

[00:16:47.810] - Peter

Oh yeah, forgot about that. That was a big one in Bali. It was crazy. It would just stop. There would just be no internet or no cell phone for like 3 hours. Just spontaneously it would just stop. Yeah, that happened a number of times. Luckily, never while I had a trade on did things cut out. But there were times where I was like, I don't know if I should be trading right now. The data is not refreshing very quickly. So yeah, that was a little hairy. But that was definitely the worst of it. Outside of that, haven't had internet issues.

[00:17:26.110] - Agnieszka

Okay.

[00:17:26.830] - Peter

Something to watch out for if you're going to travel, for sure.

[00:17:29.380] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And now you are in Euroasia, actually on the border in the country. Is that a little bit easier because now you are closer to the US. So also different times. Do you notice any difference in your trading results since you moved from Asia?

[00:17:48.600] - Peter

Yeah, so once I moved from Asia to Georgia, Georgia puts me close enough to the US. To where I can at least trade the morning hours for the US. Market. So I'm back to trading regular volatility. And yeah, my stats went way back up immediately. Once I started trading these normal.Sessions again, it was kind of wild. Like, oh my gosh, I forgot trading was this fun and easy. This is why I liked trading to begin with, right? Yeah, it was eye opening.

[00:18:25.330] - Agnieszka

So many traders want to travel and trade. I hear it constantly. It's one of the biggest goals. Right? I want to have freedom and I want to travel the world and trade. Were you able to keep your regular routine in the traveling sense? Because I put a lot of focus on the routine in your trading to make sure that you have consistency in your routine because that builds discipline and discipline gives you consistent results. How was impact on your routine while traveling?

[00:19:00.760] - Peter

Yeah, so routine obviously shifted quite a bit, but I'm pretty adamant about a couple, I guess facets of my day no matter what I'm doing, which is getting good sleep, getting some meditation, eating healthy, eating well and getting ample exercise. And so no matter where I go, that's always going to be a part of it. And as long as I can kind of try to fit them together so everything works smoothly for the day and I have some time to relax before I trade, it kind of works out pretty smoothly. I think if I didn't have that, if I couldn't figure that out. When I got to a new place, I think things would be pretty ugly. But I've been lucky enough.

[00:19:43.840] - Agnieszka

Did you plan on that before? Did you on purpose choose places where you thought, okay, I need a place that will be close to the gym or park, where I can walk, et cetera.

[00:19:55.640] - Peter

Yeah, absolutely. That's usually what I'm looking for, is an area that's not too expensive, where there's a gym, I can find good food. I can cook some meals myself. There's some green space nearby. Try to find a place that's not too loud. Yeah, I think that has made a big difference if it wasn't for that, things would be difficult.

[00:20:18.760] - Agnieszka

Okay. And one more thing I wanted to ask you is about the social life, because life of a trader is pretty lonely, and unless you have friends that you can talk about trading, it's pretty much you. And maybe some chat rooms that you can hang out with other traders to share your experience. While you were on the trip, going through all these challenges, did you find anyone that you could talk to about it? Or were you, like, calling friends from home or maybe you found some friends that were asking you on the trip, what are you doing? And you're like, I'm traveling and trading. Living the dream.

[00:21:03.830] - Peter

Yeah. It's funny you bring that up because one of the people I've been spending some time with here in Georgia is a crypto trader but is wild we have very different ways of trading, and I'm not going to be taking any of his advice, though he seems to be doing pretty well. So yeah you never know you're going to run into for sure when you're traveling. That's funny. Outside of him, I haven't run into other traders. It has been easy to meet people. I'm shocked at how many people are similar to me. They're just, like, traveling around, even, like people who are a little bit older, not like backpackers in college.

[00:21:51.840] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:21:52.850] - Peter

There's a lot, and everybody just wants to meet up, get a coffee, go for a walk, grab dinner. It's pretty easy.

[00:21:58.890] - Agnieszka

That's cool. So a lot of people are traveling and trading, or they are also doing other things while traveling.

[00:22:09.290] - Peter

I don't know where the traders are. I mean, I see them on Twitter, right? They all know the Lambo by the cappuccino spot in Rome, but I haven't seen that guy yet.

[00:22:21.630] - Agnieszka

Are you going to Rome eventually? Maybe you meet them!

[00:22:25.870] - Peter

Yeah, there's a chance.

[00:22:30.190] - Agnieszka

So can you tell us a little bit about where are you with your trading? I'm asking because if you had a chance to start this global journey all over, would you do anything differently? Do you feel it was a good moment for you to do this trip in terms of where you are with trading?

[00:22:50.150] - Peter

I think if you had asked me that a month ago, I would have said, bad idea. But now that I've had some more time to progress as I've been traveling. I think it was a very good idea. I think definitely damaged my stats for a little bit. But now I can kind of see that things my practice has changed a little bit because of the traveling. And when you just shake things up, you discover all sorts of weird stuff. I think a good example for me that is pretty obvious to most trade or they could relate to is a problem I used to have is like blow ups, is I would trade really well for like, two weeks, three weeks and then one day, just wasn't trading well. Just couldn't get synced with the market and would place a bunch of bad trades. And you look at the record over three weeks like, well, it's not a big deal, but didn't matter. It would shake my confidence so much that I wouldn't be able to trade for a whole week, right? It would throw me for such a loop. And those have kind of gone away. And I think there's two reasons one is shaking my bubble up, so having the environment shift and having to change the environment over and over and over again. But then also a lot of analysis, self analysis about how I'm thinking, how I'm feeling when those days occur, before those days occur, showed me that it had a lot to do with being tired or my system was too revved up. And so I would force trades a lot on the market. And I found another way to measure this, as opposed to just like trying to guess whether I'm in a good headspace or not. And I did it because I was playing this stupid little chess app on my phone while I was flying from the US. To Australia, where clearly my mental ability was, like, decreasing as the flight, the 17 hours flight went longer and longer, and I could see I could compete with worse and worse. I was losing to worse and worse chess bots. Like, oh, I'm going to start playing. I'll play a quick game of chess before I trade, see where I'm at.

[00:24:57.140] - Agnieszka

Oh, wow.

[00:24:58.670] - Peter

And I could be like, I'm in that state where I'm going to place bad trades. So that's where I started. I was like, all right, I need to chill out. I need to go for a walk, take a break, or maybe not trade today, right? And that had an impact. And then the next crazy thing happened is I would be playing chess and be like, I'm in that bad space. And then I could force myself to think better while I was playing chess and get myself out of the thinking process. And so now I just play chess before I trade. And it's like a game changer. It's weird, but I never would have discovered that. I would have just stayed at home and kept thinking, well, I just have these days I need to deal with them. I would have never stumbled across this weird little pattern to potentially get out of it.

[00:25:41.070] - Agnieszka

That's so cool. That's so interesting. You see how sometimes we think maybe it's something random, but then it has a purpose and then it serves us to our advantage. This is really cool. So when you said you are able to get yourself into a different headspace, is it like by doing something or just by changing your thoughts?

[00:26:03.370] - Peter

I think it's because when I'm playing the chess app, I can see me making bad decisions more clearly. They take my queen and I'm angry. So then I make a bad move after, it's more visual, it's more obvious and be like, stop doing I can get mad at myself. Stop doing that. Start over. And if I do that enough times, it can kick me out of this lazy, exhausted thinking cycle, which I believe is what is ultimately causing those blow up days.

[00:26:36.910] - Agnieszka

So basically you do kind of a pattern interruption doing that and then put yourself on a different path.

[00:26:44.620] - Peter

I think that's what it's like. The chess is like, you see more granular actions that you're taking, whereas with trading, it's like sometimes you get rewarded for bad behavior, you get punished for good behavior, and that can make it difficult to really see what's going on and that confusing feedback cycle is always on.

[00:27:02.150] - Agnieszka

Got you. Yeah. Plus, in trading, you can always talk some things well to yourself. Right. Especially if you get saved. It's like, okay, yeah, it's fine, it's fine. So this became part of your process now that you play chess every time before you trade.

[00:27:17.470] - Peter

Yeah, I just pick up the app. And in the 20 minutes where I'm kind of just relaxing, looking at charts before the market opens, I'll play a couple of games of chess, see where I'm at mentally. And if I'm really losing the bots that I normally compete with, I'll make, sure I can at least get a good game in. And if I'm concerned about the decisions. I'm making, like I'm being vengeful against the bots, if they beat me and I start making really stupid decisions, then I know something's up and that's when I have to take a step back and assess and try to get myself out of that.

[00:27:55.640] - Agnieszka

Guys, this is a really cool idea and if any of you like playing chess, maybe worth trying. Who knows, right?

[00:28:05.290] - Peter

Yeah.

[00:28:05.800] - Agnieszka

Is there anything else that you could share with us that you think would be helpful to know or maybe how to prepare before people will venture on a trip? Like that something that you wish you would have done before you went on a trip.

[00:28:29.410] - Peter

I think if you're going to be trading in a different time zone where you're trading different assets or different sessions, try to find a way to trade those before you go just so you really back testing is not the same as live trading. I think you got a live trade. That was a big mistake I made. Hopefully others can avoid it.

[00:28:54.430] - Agnieszka

All right, cool. And what's the next stop of your trip and how long are you still going to travel for?

[00:29:02.590] - Peter

Yeah, I'll be in Athens starting this weekend for it's probably going to be a month. There's a chance I'll venture down to the islands as well. Still not sure about that. And then after that, either southern coast of Italy or Barcelona, I'm not sure yet.

[00:29:25.620] - Agnieszka

Very nice.

[00:29:26.300] - Peter

And then I think I'll be in europe probably through early fall to mid fall, and then I need to come back to the States for a wedding. And then maybe to Mexico for a little while. Not sure yet.

[00:29:43.530] - Agnieszka

Oh, wow, that's quite a round trip. So it will be almost a year because when did you leave?

[00:29:52.590] - Peter

It'll probably be like eight or nine months when I make it back to the States.

[00:29:56.830] - Agnieszka

Wow, very cool. While you're in Greece and you consider some islands, I highly recommend Corfu. It's a really beautiful, very small island, but it's really nice. A lot of movies recorded there, very picturesque.

[00:30:14.730] - Peter

I will check it out.

[00:30:15.900] - Agnieszka

Well, that brings us to the end of this episode and thank you so much, Peter, for joining us and sharing your experience. I'm sure that your story has answered a lot of questions that many traders that are dreaming of trading from all over the world might have been asking themselves. Remember, be careful what you wish for. Sometimes what you imagine and expect does not turn out exactly as you thought it would. So always be prepared. And as trading as a business, before you start thinking about conducting your business from elsewhere, make sure that you know it is possible and that you have all the tools and everything in the right place so that your business will not suffer and that you also can thrive and enjoy the process. Thank you again, Peter, for your time today and I wish you a great continuation of your journey and of course, a lovely summer in Europe.

[00:31:19.430] - Peter

Thanks for having me. That was fun!

[00:31:21.480] - Agnieszka

Thank you for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. If you enjoy my show, please rate it, review it on Apple podcasts and be sure to subscribe so you can come back for real life conversation in the next episode. Until then, this is from Ahead Coach. And don't forget, you too can realize your dream without losing yourself and your confidence in the process.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/

Get ready for an eye-opening episode as Agnieszka sits down with a CurlyGal Investor, who is a passionate day trader and experienced Social Worker. She has captivated an impressive number of Twitter followers as she's sharing the unfiltered truth about trading, documenting her real story from day one - the highs and lows.

Join us as we dive into the real world of trading, without sugar-coated illusions painted by social media. Listen and learn how to embrace failure as feedback, achieve long-term success and why a mentor & supportive trading community plays a vital role in every trader's journey.

About CurlyGal Investor

Curlygal Investor is an options & futures trader, mother of a daughter and Social Worker with a passion for the process. She brings 15 years experience as a Master's Degree Clinical Social Worker & Therapist in the Mental Health field. She's fascinated with the role that the psychology of trading plays in successful trading. She built a strong foundation on principles learned working 1 on 1 with a veteran trading mentor, and it's a big advocate of using this approach as a way to get ahead of the curve. She considers herself a constant student of the market and today she wants to dive into shedding light on the realities of trading that aren't spoken much about.

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

Contact CurlyGal Investor:

• Twitter: @curlygalinvest
• Twitter: @breakoutplays1

--

Transcript

[00:00:04.210] - Agnieszka

I am Agnieszka Wood. Welcome to the Confidence in Trading Podcast. Let me introduce my special guest that goes by her official Twitter name, CurlyGal Investor (@curlygalinvest). She considers herself a continuous student of trading the market. And today we want to dive into shedding some light into the realities of trading that aren't traditionally spoken about enough. Welcome to episode number nine, Reality versus Illusions in Trading. Hi, welcome to my show. I'm absolutely thrilled to have you here, especially knowing that how much you value your privacy. So thank you so much for coming onto my show.

[00:00:46.500] - CurlyGal

Thank you so much for having me, Agnieszka. It's a pleasure to be here with you today.

[00:00:52.310] - Agnieszka

And when we met on Twitter, what really struck me right away was the authenticity of your post. No BS, no puffed up reality stuff like, hey, look at me, how good I am. Which in general, it is the tendency of social media. But in trading, that approach can be taken to the extreme. Right. And today I would love to talk with you about exactly that. With all the advertising hype around. When you got into trading, did you know how emotional this journey is going to be?

[00:01:31.170] - CurlyGal

Oh, my goodness. Really? When I started my Twitter account, that was January of 2021, the purpose was I had a very specific intention set out there. I wanted to record my trace. So kind of like utilizing it as a journal. Not my trace, but my process. I wanted to kind of like record my process and be encouraging of others of bringing light to what the opportunities in the market were available and that this was also available for everybody. Right. Because like I mentioned to you before, it was very shocking to me that here I was, in my mid thirty s, and I had never ever come across with anything stock market related. Nobody had educated me about this. I went to school, to college, grad student. This has never been a theme amongst my peers or professionals. This is the thing that you can do. Right? So I wanted to be able to kind of open up space for others to know that this is the thing. This is something, whether it's investing or the various forms that one can participate in the stock market, that this is something that anyone can do. And whether about how emotional this journey can or cannot be, no, I definitely not expect that this could be.

[00:03:22.610] - CurlyGal

It really depends. It depends, right. When you start growing your discipline. This can become less emotional. Right. Because as you start building yourself as a trader, you start building more self control. And the more self control you have, I think that the less emotional of a ride.

[00:03:45.850] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:03:46.540] - CurlyGal

But when you don't have those things, it can definitely be a roller coaster. And definitely I've been there, done that. I've been in both sides of that coin. I did not expect that it will be like that. I thought it will be way, especially trading. I thought that it would be easier. But it's a very interesting path.

[00:04:08.760] - Agnieszka

It's definitely interesting and very challenging. And what is really pretty amazing that you were documenting your intention was to document the process, which in general, not many traders really focus on. Everyone focuses on the money. How am I going to get the right ticker to make the money, but not on the process? So how did you know to do that? Where did you figure out, you know what, actually, I think the process is the most important part in that. Did you even think about it or did it just come up intuitively to you?

[00:04:46.890] - CurlyGal

I think that because of the previous experience when I first started in 2020 with the investing portion of everything, again, it was just so nice to be able to see a portfolio grow and doing certain things with it. And figuring it out. Okay, when am I taking profit the length of what I want this portfolio to be and not just allowing for the portfolio to grow and then not take any? Right. That was very interesting because we took profit off of that initial investing. It was a short term, medium term portfolio, and I knew to take profit. Yet when I transitioned into trading, I started having difficulties with taking profit versus hey, especially with options. Options can turn on you so quickly, right? And so it was a learning curve, moving into options. But part of what was extremely helpful was that later on, 2021, I started working with a mentor. So I connected with a person who had been in the market for 20 years, who's been doing this for a very long time, successfully. And I started learning other things that were extremely necessary for me to be able to even have a chance at trading options.

[00:06:32.570] - CurlyGal

I think that it was like partially intuitively thinking of the process. Again with me being a social worker, I think the process is something that I naturally work on all the time anyway, right? It's just part of my day to day, whether it's with clients or even in my personal life. I'm a process person. I like the journey, right? I'm not just there for the end goal. I love and enjoy the journey. So I do that on a day to day basis. So I think it intuitively transferred into what I was doing with trading, and then I added more along the way with my mentor and stuff like that, and my own experience too, because as I walked every day in trading, I was learning. I mean, I was learning things, I was doing good things, and then I was doing bad things. I was making mistakes, and I was learning from them.

[00:07:32.930] - Agnieszka

Yeah. I saw recently a note from you on Twitter from your journal, and it said, these are the things I did good, and these are the things that I did bad or I did wrong. I don't know exactly how you said it, but it was definitely what can you improve? Like evaluating those things is so important.

[00:07:54.230] - CurlyGal

Absolutely.

[00:07:55.210] - Agnieszka

I think it is fantastic that you already have that love for processes in your daily life. Because you know what they say, you trade how you live, so you could just automatically transfer that. Did you actually use technical analysis for your trading?

[00:08:12.350] - CurlyGal

Well, when I first started, I did not know much about technical analysis. So I think that when I very first like if I'm just recalling my very beginnings on my own, I will say that I will describe myself more as a momentum trader. At that time, no, I did not have knowledge of technical analysis. That did not come until after I started working with a mentor. So that's when now it's been three years since I've been in the market and two with working with mentorship. And now I can say I'm able to read a chart, I'm able to pattern recognition, I'm able to draw in a chart, I'm able to identify all these different things that are extremely helpful. It's like sometimes you look back and it's like how was I even traded?

[00:09:18.220] - Agnieszka

I just wanted to say because that's what I was wondering, how did you even knew where to get in and where to get out? Because we were talking about getting out, just thinking, okay, it went up, so now I'm getting out, basically.

[00:09:33.670] - CurlyGal

Well, it was more of whenever I saw strength, it was like I saw strength and direction. If there was a directional move and I saw strength, I will go in and out and quickly be able to collect profit. It was more like a momentum got you. I guess that's what I will say, momentum type of trading. But that was very early in my process and yes. So now I definitely think that technical analysis is an important aspect because I've come across with a lot of people who say how do you know? So this is Trigger, I come in, how do you know, where are you going to get out? So that's a great question. Right. It comes down to knowing, right? Knowing where are your trend lines, knowing where your support and resistance is, knowing what different patterns, the meaning of the event patterns. Right. If you see a double top or double bottom, what does that mean or what can potentially that be or take you to. Right, so that's definitely important aspect and all of that I started learning with mentorship.

[00:10:47.970] - Agnieszka

I think that also helps you to kind of prepare yourself what you can expect and then that helps you with emotions, right. If you know, okay, I can expect if I'm in a trade for let's say longer time, but there is a resistance in between. I know I can expect some kind of pullback. I don't have to panic when I see a red candle.

[00:11:10.000] - CurlyGal

Correct.

[00:11:11.910] - Agnieszka

So that really helps you with management of your emotions in that case, right?

[00:11:17.850] - CurlyGal

Absolutely, yes.

[00:11:19.070] - Agnieszka

At what point was there any point like that when you were working and maybe you were learning the technical analysis, which for many people is they get paralysis by analysis because you get all these candles and patterns and indicators and they throw all these things on the chart. Now they don't see the candles because there's so many lines. And at what point did you realize, okay, this is not going to be so easy as I saw in media or on Twitter. Like everyone says, oh yeah, I made million in three months and everyone makes millions. And you sit there and it's like, well, I don't know what they are doing. But people usually think there must be something wrong with me because everyone is making millions but me. What's wrong?

[00:12:11.290] - CurlyGal

How will I put it? I've never saw it that way. I've never went on Twitter seeing oh, I did think that there was a potential for me to make considerable good amount of money or even hopefully replace the money that I make through my day job. But I think that my approach was always very realistic as to not really focusing on myself and my process, not going on Twitter to compare myself with whatever is going on out there. So I was just very grounded with just focusing on myself and through my own experience, realizing that it takes much more than just learning how to read a chart. And that's where the other components, the mindset, the discipline, the risk management I had zero idea what risk management was. How to based on knowing what's your risk tolerance, based on your account size. Right. Because we can both be taking the same tray, but you might have more wiggle room than I, or you might tolerate a larger pool than I because your account sizes are different. There are just so many intricacies and all of those things really came to life for me and put together through mentorship I had no idea of.

[00:14:06.020] - CurlyGal

Sometimes one keeps repeating the same thing where I'm like, okay, I'm taking this ray and then I go up and I go down, I go up and then I'm like in the same place? What am I doing? But it was not until I had an outsider looking at what I was doing and being able to say, hey, point out this is what's going on. And for me to be able to then understand it in a way that I can then change my practice. Right, right.

[00:14:39.430] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And I think that is so good that you made that step to actually get someone from outside because it's very hard when you are in the middle of something to see what is going on. Right. Because imagine you're like in the washing machine and you're just being tumbled. You cannot really see the colors that are in the washing machine because you're just like in between, right? It's much easier to see something when you are further away. Even reading newspaper, like they say, the least light is just right under the street light, right? What I also find very beautiful about your journey is that you had this sense of self reflection and you were able to ground yourself as a trader while you were having your work next to it. Because a lot of traders, when you talk to them, they want to replace their job, right? They hate their job and they had the boss and they want to be free. But you said it was a possibility maybe somewhere in the future, which automatically takes the pressure away.

[00:15:48.430] - CurlyGal

Right? And that's very interesting because actually, I know I've had my times right, because I'm a human like anybody else and I'm a social worker by profession. I am fortunate to say that I love my profession. I like what I do. So I'm not in a job that I dislike. Have I had times through my journey where perhaps it was time for me to move into a different position? Or maybe I've experienced burnout like a lot of people in my profession, or even in trading rate. But while I was excited about the possibility of can I make this at some point down the line into a full time thing? I feel very blessed about my job and my profession. And this is something that I can continue to do. Whether it's now or even if I ever leave it, I can always come back to it. It's not something that I dislike. It's something that brings a lot of joy and gratification to me. So that's one and two. And then I want to say for a lot of people who might be contemplating the same thing, I do feel gratitude for my job because having it allows me to trade.

[00:17:19.290] - CurlyGal

I wouldn't be able to have gone through the journey that I've gone through for the last three years in learning to trade or invest, being involved so actively in the stock market. I've been involved in the stock market daily. That's intense.

[00:17:37.730] - Agnieszka

It is.

[00:17:38.820] - CurlyGal

You really think about it. That's intense. On top of having a full time job, having your life, being a mom, whatever else. And financially, from a financial perspective, I don't think that I will have been able to do this as dedicated and intensively as I being without having my job as a backup. Because if I will have had to worry about, oh, I don't have a job and this is all the money that I have, and my financial growth depends on solely trading, I'm going to tell you right now, I will have been extremely stressed out.

[00:18:21.670] - Agnieszka

That is the component. It's not just like making enough money to live off that helps you to trade for a living. There's this whole component. Can you release the stress of not having a secure income. Because if you have a job right now and you trade and you already feel the pressure, even though you have income coming in, but you have pressure like, I have to make it work, that means that you are not ready to step over because you can't even deal with the pressure when you do have the income.

[00:18:59.090] - CurlyGal

Correct? I absolutely agree with you.

[00:19:01.120] - Agnieszka

Imagine if you don't have that income, it's going to be double, right? So that building that immunity first and.

[00:19:10.470] - CurlyGal

Understanding that I'm in this learning process, especially at the very beginning, that there are things that I need to be able to get to. I say like levels, right? It's like, okay, I accomplished this thing, now I'll go to the next level and next level and slowly. And I remember there being initially when I was flying solo, so to speak, I took on a lot of risk. I was very risky, and I was not afraid of being risky. And I could make a lot of money doing that, but then I could lose a lot of money doing that also. And that affects it does impact your mental health because it literally felt like a roller coaster. Like I was having these ups and downs and just being emotionally attached to trading and my trades and the money, it almost becomes some sort of identity. And I think that's something important to point into as well, that we are not much more than just a trader, right? And that my success in life is not solely measured by my performance money or how much money do I make or not, right? And being kind to myself, being able to say I am in this process, and if I did not had a good day and if this is affecting me emotionally, right?

[00:21:05.540] - CurlyGal

How can I make this not affect me this much? The only answer to that is by managing my risk better. Okay, so how do I become a better risk manager? How do I become a better money manager? Right? And this is actually a conversation that came up with my mentor recently because I've had times where I am extremely disciplined and it takes a lot of patience because I want to be a participant in the market all the time. But that's not how trading works. The market is not going to give me the same thing every single day. So it becomes my job to be patient, to wait for the times that I write for me. And when I say for me, I mean not just like a technical setup, but also for me in terms of my risk tolerance, in terms of a particular ticker. Sometimes we're trading, there's different tickers and there's some that work best with my personality and others that don't really work with my personality. So I decide, okay, I'm going to leave this aside, right? So working with what my personality is if I need slower trades or where am I better?

[00:22:34.280] - CurlyGal

Am I better on a range day or am I better on a directional day. It's okay to wait for the times that work best for you. And that is something that I think that, especially for beginners, is very important to understand. This becomes a journey of self discovery.

[00:22:57.440] - Agnieszka

I call it, right?

[00:22:58.910] - CurlyGal

Yes. It's like learning about yourself and how you translate that into trading. Because I will tell you right now, a lot of what we do or don't do outside of trading, we carry it on into trading totally.

[00:23:15.590] - Agnieszka

But we are much better at specifying in our life what we like and what we don't like and what suits us. But in trading, we kind of try to especially at the beginning, you try to grab everything because you think, I just need to do that. Isn't that what am I supposed to do? Like, I'm a trader, I need to trade, so let me just place trades. That's what I'm supposed to do here. But that having that compassion and that understanding of yourself and really observing yourself, no, I can wait. This doesn't suit me. It's just like you will also not date everyone. You will pick someone who really fits your character and who you feel good with, right?

[00:23:57.820] - CurlyGal

Yeah.

[00:23:58.300] - Agnieszka

So that's the same in trading. You have to pick something that really suits you. And if you don't know what it is at the beginning, just try it out. But not with 100,000 shares. Maybe just buy one.

[00:24:11.470] - CurlyGal

Exactly.

[00:24:12.380] - Agnieszka

For a start.

[00:24:14.190] - CurlyGal

And you know what? I encourage even demo accounts at the beginning. I'm going to be really honest. I started with real money, and whatever I was making or losing, it was real. And I did that for a very long time. And I remember thinking, oh, it's not the same. My emotions are not going to translate the same if I'm in demo. However, the end of 2022 and even the beginning of this year, I feel that the market has become more challenging. And I did start it, especially because I started dabbling into different instruments. I started using demo more. What I discovered was that I treated as it was just a real account. The emotions are still there. I'm still treating it. I traded the way that I will trade a real account. I trade it with the size that I will trade a real account. I take the amount of risk that I will I translate the whole thing. So I do find it helpful. And I think that especially for beginners, you do want to give yourself the chance to do that instead of just using your real money all the time. Or even like sometimes I'm going back and forth between the two.

[00:25:44.610] - CurlyGal

Sometimes I'm testing something and I just go on demo to do so instead of doing it with my real money. It's just smart, right? If things go down the hill. At least I'm minimizing the amount of money that I'm putting in the line.

[00:25:58.740] - Agnieszka

No, totally. If I have a new strategy that I'm testing, I'm not going to put my money on it. I'm going to first get used to it. Or even if I change my charts or change sometimes testing different platform, I'm not going to just jump in there and start trading. I'm like, I need to know how. It's not even like maybe my mind wants it, but it's the physical adjustment, right. I have to be able to execute trade in a certain way. And I have to make sure that my hand is going to click fast enough through things that my eyes are going to go the right way and not being confused. Where are the things that I need on the screen?

[00:26:37.420] - CurlyGal

Yes. Makes sense.

[00:26:40.290] - Agnieszka

There's a lot that comes into really making trading your own, basically. Right. And it does come to the process, but I think the biggest part of it is really acceptance and self compassion. Giving yourself time, giving yourself love, stop beating yourself up. It's really not easy thing to do that's. Why not many people are succeeding in this, and it takes time. And I really like what you said about the fulfillment that you get, fulfillment from your work. Because I think that's another part that is important, to have something that gives you fulfillment next to trading. You might love looking at charts, you might love trading and everything, but it is such a draining activity mentally and emotionally. You need to recharge somewhere outside of trading.

[00:27:36.610] - CurlyGal

I absolutely agree with you. Yes. And I felt those times when I'm between the job itself, my day job itself can also be mentally draining. It takes a lot of energy, right? It takes a lot of energy when you are working with people and when you're working with mental health, it consumes a lot of energy. Right. It's a lot of output that I put out there for my job. So when I put trading on top of that, it can take a toll. I found myself feeling so exhausted and so done at end of the day, getting knocked out and sleep with my life on. That reminds me of the importance of I need to recharge, like you said. But I need to give myself lapses of times in between, right. Rather than me showing up to the market. Because it's good to have that screen time, but it doesn't mean that you have to come to the market to trade every single day. And sometimes it means that being able to calm my mind and my nervous system. Really, I find myself having to calm my nervous system. Intentional, being intentional about that. I do that through meditation or to reducing the amount of times that I'm exposed to the market for as hard as it is, because I want to be there sometimes.

[00:29:15.800] - CurlyGal

Like, okay, I need to give myself a break and give some days in between that has become more important as time has gone by. That's one of the biggest pieces that I've learned, especially as of recently, from 2022 coming into 2023.

[00:29:34.420] - Agnieszka

And that's where healthy routine comes in, right. And back to the process. Because if you decide to spend the whole day in front of a charts, even if you're not trading, you're in a kind of alert position because you want to see if there is an opportunity. So even though you're not trading actively, you're still alert in that state.

[00:29:57.200] - CurlyGal

That's a very good point. That's a very good point. So I guess that we have to carve those times. We have to be intentional about carving time to just be off, right. Just be away. Be off. Be away and doing something else.

[00:30:15.780] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And not feel bad because the market will be there when you come back.

[00:30:19.910] - CurlyGal

Right.

[00:30:21.190] - Agnieszka

It's not like, okay, this is the only day that you can take a trade. There will always be opportunity. I did have myself travel to let go, and I would force myself and go and take a nap, but then instead of sleeping, I would be sitting there with my phone, opening my platform and just watching stocks. It was crazy! In case something breaks out. It was absolutely nuts. Now I just trade till eleven, and after that I'm done. I close my platforms and I sometimes do check to see how things are going or if there are earnings after hours, I want to know, because that would mean that I might be opportunity for next day. But it's definitely not driven by that must, I must know. I must be there all the time.

[00:31:15.270] - CurlyGal

Exactly.

[00:31:16.710] - Agnieszka

Trading can be a very lonely occupation and right. And many traders look for some sort of community. That's where Twitter comes in. Someone that you can actually talk about trading. Because not many people from outside of this industry really understand what you are going through, especially when you struggle, right. So they don't really know how to give you support. The best that they can do is say, just quit. That's not what you want to hear. Even though I understand why people who love you want you to stop trading because they see your pain, so they're like, just quit it. Just cut it. On the other hand, how do you know that in this highly driven by money conditions, people truly have your best interest in minds? Like how do you want to build community, but how do you know who to trust? And we talked a little bit about that really sincere and fantastic community on Twitter that we are part of, which surprised me when I joined, that it actually exists. But what was your experience in that area? Because you joined Twitter not so long time ago, right?

[00:32:29.780] - CurlyGal

Two years ago. It was in January 2021. There were two years in the FinTweet community. Well, like I said, when I first started, it was just more about sharing my progress and kind of like being uplifting to others as to this is something that is a possibility for everyone. However, I also had the experience that I was involved in the market with my brother when I started as well. So that was kind of cool having that partnership with him and being able to go through struggles and being able to talk about it and be frustrated if you wanted to be frustrated, be excited if you wanted to be excited. And so that was like a to go person that I had at home close by that I could share those things with. But when it comes to the social media again, I actually found my mentor through Twitter and how did I know it came all very organically. He had reached out one day after I had posted a very heartbreaking post. I had lost like $2,000.

[00:33:51.340] - Agnieszka

Oh my gosh.

[00:33:55.210] - CurlyGal

I had this trade and I went with size and I lost like $2,000. And I remember posting about it and it was an options trading and I was just heartbroken. I was like, how do I make that switch to avoid losing so much, right? And he had reached out and he was extremely kind and very genuine and he commented and then we got to chat a little bit about my trade. He offered to look into the trade and gave me some feedback as to what had transpired and whatnot. And from that I started checking out his services. And I actually started with Lowers, like an email. It was an email service that he had. And I was learning a lot through the information from emails. I did not started with a discord or a group, I just started with receiving these emails for the week with weekly information and it included alerts and whatnot. But also it was very comprehensive into telling patterns what is that we're looking for information that kind of helped me to learn about what to look for, news, market information, just flow, just a bunch of different things together in one place. And so I was still trading solo, but was using this information that was helping me understand the market and the trades and how to trade options in a more comprehensive way. So it was extremely educational. I really like that. And then eventually I transitioned into joining the group. The group that he had. And the group, I really liked it because it was a small group but it was also very it was like a safe place. And I think that that's key. When you are in a group where you can actually share your things, there's transparency. You can share everything from your good times to your bad times, to your frustrations to I really messed it up today, this is what I did. And not feel like you're going to be ashamed or. Not feel like you're going to be dragged on. Right. That's something that I found there. And it became like this extended family, so to speak. The people who has been in this group have been there for a very long time. And we are extremely supportive to each other and we've grown together. I look back now and I see, wow, the person that started then is not the same person now. I know so much more. But I'm also able to implement and navigate myself much more, better in trading than what I used to. And that also make it to where it wasn't isolating. You see what I'm saying? Because I think that the part where when I have had isolated in the past has been when I'm struggling. When I'm struggling and I'm like, is it okay to say this? I'm struggling or I'm super red and how am I getting myself from that emotional spectrum? It can get dark if it can be a dark place to be. And talking about that can be I don't know, I feel that there's been times where I felt like a sense of shame, like coming from the point of, okay, I know this, I conceptually know this. Why did I still do it? Or why did I repeated this thing when I know better? Right? And that has been the times and the places where having that strong cohesive community group and mentorship has been key. Because it's hard. It's hard. And being able to face myself and accept, yes, it is hard. It was hard. This is what I'm feeling and it is okay, I can allow myself to feel this right now. And I can walk you through with my mentor tomorrow. It's going to be okay, we can make a plan for this. And he has been always being very encouraging to myself and others with just being there, being able to be supportive, without being without bashing you down.

[00:39:13.630] - Agnieszka

Yeah, because we do it ourselves enough, right. And that shame feeling bring you in a really dark places because a lot of times it's connected to all other emotions and experiences from the past. And the moment that you are on your own, there is no sense of that vulnerability where you kind of think you have to deal with it on your own. Right. You feel alone and then you go down that spiral because now you start calling yourself names and it just becomes you go deeper and deeper. When you have the community where you can actually share what you're feeling, what you're going through, and also hear from other people that they are going through the same thing, you have much more compassion for yourself because you know, okay, this is not just me, right. It is just pretty difficult thing to accomplish. And there is nothing wrong with me. I just have a difficult time. So bringing up that compassion for yourself and that love we talked about is much easier when you receive love from others, right? Because in that community, that's what you get. If you have community you trust. Especially, I think what you mentioned about the size of the community, that's really key.

[00:40:32.080] - Agnieszka

That it is not 1000 people in the chat just all telling you that they make money because that makes you feel even worse about yourself when you're losing again. It's like how are they doing it? What am I doing wrong here?

[00:40:46.300] - CurlyGal

Right.

[00:40:47.790] - Agnieszka

So when you have people that you can actually hear from and you know that they are there to support you, it creates this extra backup if you feel a little bit less.

[00:40:58.320] - CurlyGal

And accountability! Change comes starts there. I've had times where I've been able to say hey, I did this today. This transpire. I'm just not at the best place. But I'm being honest and transparent about what went through. The first thing I realized is that it opens the doors. It gives permission for others to do the same. To say you know what, I've been going through this too, right? So you can relate, you can share those experiences and then you can grow from them. We keep ourselves accountable and then we are actually able to say let's make a plan for this. How can we make it to where we are not repeating the same pattern? If this is the pattern, my mentor might come and say okay, let's just get on a one on one and let's just come up with a plan to address this particular issue. Like you mentioned, the size, I think it has been great because the size of the group, because there's a very personal relationship between my mentorship, myself and my mentorship and the rest of the participants in the group. And it's so interesting because he knows us by our personalities, he knows our personalities, he knows how we operate, he knows our weaknesses, he knows our strengths and he is able to very individualize cater to those things.

[00:42:35.330] - CurlyGal

So it's funny because sometimes it's like oh, he has insight into each of each one of us, account size, what we struggle and whatnot. So he's able to say hey, we're looking into this. This is the reason why I'm looking into this. But I encourage those with a small size account. This is not the play for it, right? For example, and that becomes important when you are in the process of learning, identifying, okay, what's the trade that you can actually tolerate and what's the trade that you can not all are in the same level of experience or even personality, like you said before. So it has made it to where I feel I'm definitely a much better trader and I can manage have more self control with having that accountability from the group than if I was solo. When you're solo, you think, oh, nobody's watching you. And you just keep repeating the same stuff over and over and over. But when you have somebody who's watching, they can point out, hey, look at this, or remember when you said this? Remember that you're struggling with this. So it becomes very nice to have yeah.

[00:44:02.190] - Agnieszka

Normally when you trade on your own, nobody's watching you, but in fact, you are watching yourself. The only problem is that we lie to ourselves and we don't want to admit that. Okay, now I'm convincing myself to do something that I said I wouldn't. Right. So having that sense of integrity, it is easier when you have another person that you say, okay, I'm going to promise to you because we tend to have more integrity with other people than we have with ourselves. And that's back to that building the relationship with yourself based on love, compassion and integrity.

[00:44:43.530] - CurlyGal

Yes, absolutely. And facing I wanted to add to what you just said that point. It's been happening recently through this year, I've been working on learning a new instrument. Right. So I went from options into looking into futures. And so it's relatively new for me. I've been going through some evaluations as well, and I have yet to pass them. Yeah, it's been exciting. It's been a good experience. But I have not been able to pass the evaluation yet. I've actually flung them and that's something that I will be sharing more on my Twitter page of. But what I wanted to say is like being able to face myself, having somebody who say, hey, look at this, look at this in the mirror. What is going on? Even outside of trading, you are a good trader. These are the words that my mentor said to me recently too. I was like, you are a good trader and you are being a poor money manager currently. And then that trigger that thought of what is going on in my life financially outside of trading right now. Is there holes? Is there places where I'm neglecting? Right? So it kind of put me in a situation where it's like, let me take a look deeper at what's going on.

[00:46:35.520] - CurlyGal

And I'm super grateful for that because, yes, it's completely right. I think I am being a poor money manager at this time. I'm doing it in this other areas in my life. So let me stop for a second step.

[00:46:52.820] - Agnieszka

Let me fix that.

[00:46:53.820] - CurlyGal

Let me fix this so that I can come with a clearer mind into the market to do the things that I know that works and present with the discipline that I need to present in order to be able to do this successfully. Right? So, yes, it's just part of the process and I just love them and extremely grateful to have that.

[00:47:18.560] - Agnieszka

That's awesome. So for those of you guys who are listening and you don't have a community, what I would recommend is connect with our guest on Twitter, CurlyGirl Investor. And that's a good way to start building community, right?

[00:47:37.010] - CurlyGal

And of course you have to sweep through the Twitter world but you can definitely find there's definitely good people out there being honored enough to come across with really good people that I've been able to exchange DMs and speak to privately or others that are walking through my same steps, right. That may or may not be struggling and we just connect and exchange ideas and support each other. I think that's what social media is supposed to be about in the first place.

[00:48:21.090] - Agnieszka

Yeah, that's true. The moment that I started to reach out to people, I started getting the same type of people as I am who have the same value, who really like the genuine connection and that community started to grow and as you say, I came across so many wonderful people and yourself, of course. And now we are connecting on the wife. So that is just wonderful. So don't sit in your cave but just get out of your shell and put yourself out there. Vulnerability is something that you need as a trader because that's what the market requires. You have to be vulnerable and you have to be willing to put yourself out there. And yes, you might be hurt, but that's exactly what the market does. It throws challenges at you and sometimes you take a loss, right? So you have to be willing to take that hit and the keys that it will not take you off your feet, but that is in your control. That is that risk management and money management, right?

[00:49:31.270] - CurlyGal

Absolutely.

[00:49:32.710] - Agnieszka

This was really fantastic. I so enjoyed talking with you and you have brought up so many great points that I think will really help people to get some different perspective about failure and about how to go through that journey and more compassion. That's the whole purpose of this podcast and I think you put it in such beautiful words how you thank you.

[00:50:00.530] - CurlyGal

You know what Agnieszka I was thinking? It is very interesting because when we see in the conversation of success versus failure, when we see and when we think about the people that we look up to that are successful in whatever area it might be right, what people don't see is what it took for them to get there. And people think, oh, this is just something that he's just successful. No, it did not just came to be that it fall into his life. This came with 5, 10, 15 years of hard work, right? If I think of my okay, let's just say myself in my profession as a social worker, I'm 15 years in social work. The social worker who started on that first year post grad is not the same person. Right. It doesn't have the same skills or abilities as the person right now sitting in front of you. And that is very important. I think that's why sharing that process and being willing to say I failed or I mean, is it really failure. If it takes five times for me to fall to then accomplish the level of success that I am aiming for, is it really failure?

[00:51:28.160] - CurlyGal

No. Failure is just part of the journey to success. And I think that we have to have that in perspective when we are trying to compare ourselves to others out there. We don't know where in their journey they are at. When you see people who have succeeded, this took a lot of behind the scenes that you have yet to see. Right. So I hope that through me sharing my journey and the ups and downs, that people can get a better grasp that this is what real trading looks like. It's not peaches and cream.

[00:52:10.020] - Agnieszka

Exactly.

[00:52:10.670] - CurlyGal

Every single day.

[00:52:12.120] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And failing is really feedback. And I have to think about this last launch from Starlink, from Elon Musk. They were laughing on TV that eventually it exploded, but the team said it was supposed to.

[00:52:28.530] - CurlyGal

It was an accomplishment. It was absolutely a great accomplishment. All the information that they were able to get from that launch.

[00:52:36.390] - Agnieszka

Exactly. So that's what the failure it's not really a failure. It's like when you fall, you have to learn from it. And if you don't take the lesson, then it's a waste of time. Right. So instead of beating yourself up, just sit down, look through your charts, see, journal what you did, that you can improve next time. What you did. What you did good. Because there's always something good that you did. It's not like it's not just, oh, I lost money. I don't want to look at this anymore. No, that's a waste of money. Now you don't take the lesson. At least if you paid, take the lesson.

[00:53:13.160] - CurlyGal

Exactly. Take the lesson. I love that. I love how you put that there.

[00:53:18.110] - Agnieszka

Thank you. That brings us to the end of this episode, and I really hope that this discussion, which was fantastic, and thank you so much for that, will help traders who are listening to gain some new perspectives and also encourage them to look at the trading journey from, I would say more realistic point of view. Right. Because for most traders, it is really not the world of Ferraris and cocktails on a private yacht. To make this journey successful, you need to demand a lot from yourself. So wherever you are in your journey, you need to ask yourself, can you commit to that demand?

[00:54:01.370] - CurlyGal

Yes. That's a great question.

[00:54:03.790] - Agnieszka

Thank you so much for joining us today. CurlyGal, Investor and for this candid conversation. I really appreciate you sharing your experience and your point of views, which are so valuable. So thank you. Thank you so much for that.

[00:54:19.600] - CurlyGal

Thank you for having me.

[00:54:22.050] - Agnieszka

And thank you for listening to the Confidence in Trading Podcast. If you enjoy my show, please review it and rate it on Apple podcast and be sure to subscribe so you can come back for a real, live conversation in the next episode. Until then. This is Agnieszka Wood from Ahead Coach. And don't forget, you too can realize your dream without losing yourself and your confidence in the process.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/

Get ready for an exciting episode with the remarkable Casey Stubbs! Casey is not only a 9 ½ year United States Army Veteran, but also a thriving business owner, a respected leader in his local church, author of The Ultimate Harmonic Pattern Strategy Book, and of course a trader for a living. Oh, and not to mention that he's also a devoted husband and father of nine! 

Join Agnieszka as she dives into a captivating conversation with Casey about the challenges that traders face when they want to turn trading into a full-time gig. Discover Casey's secrets to balancing the pressures of providing for a family while pursuing a trading career. He spills the beans on his journey from trading as a hobby to trading for a living and shares his wisdom on the importance of having an additional income source to ease financial stress. Brace yourself as they debunk the myth of trading as a quick fix for financial struggles and reveal the key ingredients: discipline and learning from mistakes.

About Casey Stubbs

Casey Stubbs is the host of the popular podcast "How To Trade It," where he shares his insights and expertise in the world of trading. Additionally, Casey is also the founder of TradingStrategyGuides.com, a website that offers a variety of trading strategies and resources for traders of all levels, and the newly released GlobalPropTrader.com for proprietary trading. With over two decades of experience in the industry, Casey has a wealth of knowledge to share with his audience, and his podcast and websites are widely considered to be among the most valuable resources for traders looking to improve their skills and increase their chances of success in the markets.  Casey is dedicated to helping people from all walks of life fulfill their financial dreams, while also achieving financial freedom. Helping others is at the heart of all that drives Casey on a daily basis.   

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

Contact Casey Stubbs:

• Website: https://tradingstrategyguides.com/
• Website:  https://globalproptrader.com/ 
• Website:    https://caseystubbs.com
• YouTube:   https://www.youtube.com/TradingStrategyGuides
• YouTube:   https://www.youtube.com/caseystubbs
• Twitter:       https://www.twitter.com/caseystubbs
• Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/TradingStrategyGuides
• LinkedIn:    https://linkedin.com/in/caseystubbs

--

Transcript

[00:00:00.650] - Agnieszka

I am Agnieszka Wood. Welcome to the Confidence in Trading Podcast. Let me introduce my special guest on today's show, Casey Stubbs. Casey is a nine-and-a-half-year United States Army veteran and entrepreneur, a leader in his local church, a successful business owner, and a trader. In 2009, Casey launched his first trading business, winners Edge Trading, which generated over 6 million in revenue. He then went on to launch several other successful brands, including Trading Strategy Guides, Learn to Trade for Profit, Finance & Markets, and Price Action & Income. Casey is also the author of The Ultimate Harmonic Pattern Strategy book, the most accurate harmonic patterns, and how to trade them. I met Casey a few years ago when I had the honor to be invited as a guest to his very own How to Trade It podcast. We have kept in touch since, and Casey has been supporting me greatly throughout my development as a head coach, which I am incredibly grateful for. I invited Katie to my podcast not just because he has achieved all these great things and has a wealth of knowledge that all traders can benefit from, but also because he's a married man and a father of nine and he has managed to find a way to combine trading and providing for the family.

[00:01:37.550] - Agnieszka

And I am very excited to talk with Casey about it today because that is something that creates huge pressure for many traders. Welcome, to episode number eight: the Family Factor – how it impacts your trading. Hi Casey. Welcome to my podcast, and thank you for being open to sharing your experience in this rather private field.

[00:02:01.320] - Casey

Hi, Agnieszka. Thank you so much for having me. Quite an honor to be on the show. Really excited to be here today.

[00:02:09.880] - Agnieszka

Thank you. Thank you so much. Casey, could you tell us a little bit more about your trading journey? How did it start and how is it developing?

[00:02:20.650] - Casey

Okay, so I have a really cool story about trading, and I'm really fortunate. So I started as a kid. Being interested in computers. So I grew up in the computers were new, and my aunt Mary. She worked at Intel, which makes computer chips. And so she would be bringing home computers, like parts, computer parts, and she would get extra parts that they would not need anymore, they would be throwing away or whatever. And so we'd put the computers together and she showed me how to do all that. So that created a great interest for me in technology. Me and my brothers, actually, we all. We’re interested in computers. Well, it was fun. It was just so much fun. And I didn't realize it at the time because it was fun for me because we were playing games and we were putting stuff together. But I didn't realize that the computer generation, I had no idea that the future was the computers. I didn't know that my aunt was giving me an interest that was aligned. With great future skills and growth. So I was getting a skill and. I didn't even know it, which is. Kind of a good way to trick a kid into getting high-value skills.

[00:03:32.690] - Agnieszka

Totally. What the timing!

[00:03:34.750] - Casey

Yeah. And so it turned out that my dad was involved in the stock market, and I didn't really know that he was a mechanic, a very hardworking guy, but he would be putting extra money into that. Made into the stock market. And so when I was in high school, the stock market started to get. Online trading in the early ninety s. And he didn't know how to use a computer. They didn't have computers when he was a kid. And so he's like, hey, I need. To set up my stocks, but I don't know how to use a computer. So I would help him. I got him set up, got the computer running, and hooked up the stock programs for him. And then in the process, I was. Like, what is this stock trading? This thing is amazing. I'm blown away. In my mind, I'm an instant millionaire as a teenager, like so excited about picking stocks.

[00:04:27.810] - Agnieszka

Wow, that is incredible. So at what age did you actually start trading?

[00:04:33.130] - Casey

So I practiced a little bit with my dad, and then when I got. Out of high school, I didn't want. To go to college, I joined the army. And in the army, I made $800 a month. That was in 1996. In today's money, that's not a lot of money.

[00:04:53.200] - Agnieszka

No. Was it at that time?

[00:04:55.980] - Casey

Not really. But as a 19-year-old kid. And the army, they pay for all your stuff, right? And so I remembered, I don't know. How I remembered that I was interested in trading. So with my very early on, I got an army bonus because they paid me a bonus because I picked a. Combat field that didn't get a lot of volunteers. So they paid me a $5,000 bonus. And so I took that money and I put all of it into trading accounts. And so I was stationed over in. Germany and I'd take, I don't know. How much I'd take, but most of my paycheck every time went right into my stock account. And so four years later, by the time I got out, I had over $30,000 in stocks. And it was a great time to be in. I wasn't really trading, but it was a great time because it was a big run-up from 1996. That there was what they called the.com bubble. And so I bought some tech stocks, I bought intel and I bought Cisco Systems, which was a really big one at the time. And I just made a massive return. From a very small amount of just whatever I put in every week.

[00:06:07.910] - Agnieszka

That is a great start. But how did you feel about it? Did you consider it something that you were lucky to make that money, or you thought, okay, this is how the stock market works? This is how it's going to be from now on. I'll be just always making money in the stock market.

[00:06:21.930] - Casey

It's funny because as such a young person, I still didn't really have a clue as to what was going on. I mean, I was really just very fortunate, and I didn't realize it, and I got even more fortunate. And so if you're listening to this and you think, oh, it's all your good fortune, no, I fell on my face many times. I got a good start, which helped because it got me interested. It kept the spark going because I was like, oh if I can do this once, I can do it again. But I got out in 2000, and. I got out almost at the top of that's when I got out of the army. But I got out of the market at the same time because I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to take this money and I'm going to roll it into a business. So I sold everything, and I started. My own business, which was a carpet cleaning business. And the reason I did carpet cleaning. Was because my first job was out of. The army was a carpet cleaner. And I saw my boss would show up at 08:00 in the morning, give us the jobs, and then he didn't. Do anything else all day. And I'm thinking, oh, I want to be like this guy. I want to do nothing all day. And I would bring him home, like. $500 from all day. When I didn't do it, I made like 50 and he made 500. I'm like, Wait a second, I want. To do what he's doing. So I sold all my stocks and. I bought this carpet cleaning franchise, and. That didn't end well at all. I totally crashed that into the ground for a lot of reasons. Just immaturity not knowing how to run a business, personal problems, just a lot of things that happened. And so then at that point, I. Decided to get back into the market.

[00:07:58.640] - Agnieszka

To make the money back.

[00:08:01.370] - Casey

Yeah, to try to get it back, to build a foundation. I've had many ups and downs. I've had many ups and downs. So that's basically how I got started, and I really started my love of trading.

[00:08:13.320] - Agnieszka

And was there a point where you followed trading education, or was it something that you have actually just taught yourself how to trade?

[00:08:23.420] - Casey

So. I love learning, and so do I. Would read a lot of books. I love reading. I read probably one book a week on average, and I have for years and years and years. And so I mix it up between trading books and history.

[00:08:45.110] - Agnieszka

Wow. You have to give me the secret. When do you find time for that?

[00:08:50.010] - Casey

Well, here's the secret. I call it reading, but listening is the new reading. So I drive to work, I listen to books, and I put them on two X. Because it gets them done faster.

[00:09:01.730] - Agnieszka

That's smart. Wow. I got to try that.

[00:09:05.230] - Casey

When you first start, it's like, oh, this is too fast. But after you do it for a while, your brain gets used to the speed, I bet.

[00:09:13.650] - Agnieszka

I never really considered that. Yeah.

[00:09:16.130] - Casey

See, you work from home, though. A lot of people I know nowadays. Are working from home. I have nine kids, so I could not have an office at home that they would know about. It would have to be underground, hidden. And so I work in an office. It's about a 30-minute drive too.

[00:09:29.930] - Agnieszka

Work, which is a nice way to spend time for yourself. Right. And for the books. Yeah, I'm much more of a paper person, so I really like the physical books. I still keep buying physical books.

[00:09:44.610] - Casey

I like real books. It's the problem of time. I don't have time to read them. I read very few real books now.

[00:09:52.320] - Agnieszka

Yes, I know. That's why I was asking about your secret, but now I know it. All right, so you basically learn from books, the trade. Right. And was there any point where you thought, okay, I'm going to transition my trading to trade for a living? Because, you see, many traders want to trade for a living, and they cannot make trading work because of the pressure of having to provide for their families. Like, at what point those two met in your life, like, that you started a family, and what was your trading looking like at that point?

[00:10:37.360] - Casey

Okay, so this is a very important question. This is very important, and I have a great answer to this, and I. Have a couple of key steps I. Think that anybody can follow. So the first thing is to make sure you're making money somewhere else. Right. You've got to be making money somewhere. Else because it's just like you said, it's total pressure. It's lots of pressure to do that. And so the way that I did it was I was working in construction. And I had a very young family just starting out. So this was in 2008, so I only had four kids at that time, so pretty early. Pretty early, yeah. And so they were little, too. They were all little. And I was working in construction, and in 2008, we had a real economic slowdown. The market went down pretty significantly.

[00:11:42.600] - Agnieszka

Were you trading at the time as well?

[00:11:44.500] - Casey

No, I had some stocks. I had a stock account because I always put money in. That was the early thing that I. Learned from the army. Take money. And this is everybody should be doing this. You got to have a margin, right? There's got to be a margin in your life, which means you have to be spending less money than what you're making. And even if your bills are maxed out and you can't afford certain things, or even if you're not paying certain. Things, take that money out and put it somewhere that can return the money. It doesn't have to be trading, but it could be trading. It could be investing, it could be dividends, it could be real estate, it doesn't matter. Take that money out, whatever. You pick a number. Pick a number. One of the I guess a great way to say is just take 10%. And put that aside. You can live on 90%, right? And I'm being 100% truthful. It doesn't matter how bad things are. You can always take that 10% off. And do it before anything else happens.

[00:12:51.130] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And even I have been in situations when things were bad and there is always this you can always live without something, right?

[00:13:00.280] - Casey

Here's one thing I tell people, and. I'm not even really getting to my story yet, but I always tell people. Look, trading is not getting rich quickly and seeing the problem. Here's why I think most people fail. And I'm not going to blame the advertisements or the marketers. It's a mindset thing and maybe the. Marketers have something to do with it. You see a commercial that says make. A million dollars trading. But people are trying. They're in financial pain. And it doesn't matter if the economy is good or the economy is bad. There are people that are in financial pain and so they come to trading. To try to solve that financial pain, okay? And that is not even 100% of it. The time, that's never going to work. Because you're treating trading as a lottery ticket, right? You're going to go in there, you're. Going to start trading, and now your financial pain is going to go away. And that's not the case. There's a problem. You need to solve a financial problem and it's all about managing your money, okay? And yes, it's hard to make money right now. The jobs do not pay a lot. Kind of what we just talked about, they don't pay a lot. But you got to learn to take that 10% off and start investing it, right? Because if you can't manage your own. With personal finances, you're not going to be able to manage your trades. It's a fundamental skill that you need to manage, which is managing money, being. Able to have a margin. You got to have a margin in your trading. You got to have a margin in your personal life. And the market is not a casino. If you go into it, you're going to get destroyed and your personal pain. That your experience is going to get worse, right?

[00:14:43.560] - Agnieszka

And a lot of traders go into the market and instead of creating the.

[00:14:47.310] - Casey

Margin, they trade on margin, which is a terrible idea, right? Because then the pain is even worse, right?

[00:14:56.110] - Agnieszka

The market, stock market, or trading is not an Advil pill that is going to take your pain away. It actually will worsen the condition, the reason why you have pain in the first place.

[00:15:07.860] - Casey

It's like putting your problem and putting. It is on ten X. Ten X is your problem. So if you want to hit ground zero faster, then there you go. There's that point where you break that. The breaking point, which I think many of. We have been through, I've been through a couple of times.

[00:15:25.780] - Agnieszka

Yeah, definitely.

[00:15:27.180] - Casey

To me, that's the best way to do it. Change is just basically falling on your face really hard.

[00:15:31.950] - Agnieszka

Yeah.

[00:15:32.640] - Casey

And then willing to change, willing to.

[00:15:35.790] - Agnieszka

Learn from those falls. Right?

[00:15:38.140] - Casey

Yeah.

[00:15:38.760] - Agnieszka

Back to your story. So when you had four kids and you were trading, you were working, actually, for the construction company. Have you ever considered going full-time trading?

[00:15:52.530] - Casey

I was just so into investing and putting my money in the market. I have always done that. And so that's just something that I paid attention to. I was always looking for stocks. So what actually happened to get me? Trading that I ended up losing my job. Okay. And so the economy was bad. I was building houses and construction, and. I was laid off and there was no work. I applied everywhere.

[00:16:21.140] - Agnieszka

Similar story for a lot of traders because of COVID Right. So I'm sure a lot of people are listening very carefully right now.

[00:16:29.310] - Casey

Yeah. And so then I was like, okay. Well, maybe I need to figure out something else. And so I started to research and. I realized that I had a skill. Set with the markets and understand the markets. And I also had that skill set that I talked about, which was computers. And I was pretty tech-savvy. I understood the internet. And so while I started to trade. I thought, you know what, I'm just. Going to start a website as well. And I'm going to see if I can generate some revenue from the web. And so I started a website. The name of it was called Winter's Edge Trading. And I was documenting my trading activity. I was kind of going through a process where, hey, look, I'm trading, I'm. Trying to create some side revenue trading. And so I started a website. And so what happened was that the. The website started to take off. I was trading and I wasn't really. Very good because I made a lot of mistakes and I wasn't making money, but I was making money from the website. So the website was giving me side revenue, which is why I tell people. Get money coming in and keep that money coming in until you're ready to make that switch. Or you don't ever have to if. You don't want to. Or you could switch from something that you enjoy more. Because I do like working. I like trading. I like working. I want to create multiple streams of revenue. So that's really important. And so here's a little thing that. I always find it really interesting. I found this article online and it's called How to Make $1,000 a Month Online. And so I found that article and it was really long and in-depth. And this is a kind of education.

[00:18:36.890] - Casey

I just followed it step by step, everything that the article told me to do. And from there, I learned how to make $1,000 a month online from my website. And as I was continuing to trade, then I was making money trading and. Making money from my website. And so the thing is, nowadays, nowadays it's a lot harder, right? I was at the perfect time to start a website. So now I wouldn't tell you like, go out and start a website.

[00:19:12.440] - Agnieszka

Everyone has a website.

[00:19:13.460] - Casey

Because the market saturates saturated. I wouldn't even tell you to start a YouTube channel because everybody's on YouTube. And so one good thing that's happened. Nowadays that I have been really working hard to get traders involved in prop trading, which means that you can. Pay for a practice test on a prop firm. And so, for example, I recently launched a prop firm and it's called Global Prop Trader.

[00:19:44.230] - Agnieszka

Nice.

[00:19:44.940] - Casey

And so if you go in and. You pay $250 and you pass the test, you get access to $25,000 in funds, right? So that's a way to start generating. Revenue is a little bit faster. But you still have to start very small. You have to learn how to be. Successful with a little bit. And I've been talking a lot, so. I'll let you interrupt. But I would just add one little thing.

[00:20:10.020] - Agnieszka

Do you also teach them how to trade? So imagine if someone is not really good at trading or not trading at all yet. Is this the way you would recommend learning to trade?

[00:20:22.250] - Casey

Well, yeah. So the biggest thing with trading in my mind is you're the mindset coach and so you're big on mindset. So the mindset has got to be really important. We talked about the casino. Mindset doesn’t look at the market as a casino. The next step is to plan your trading journey. Realize that you're going to go from steps one, two, three, and four. And it's a, it's a process, it's a trading process. It's a learning process. It's a phase that you have to change your mindset. You have to grow discipline. There are just so many things that you. Have to change as a person. So you have to plan that journey. So taking the test is probably the last step. You don't want to do that early. And so consistency is another big one. Start small and don't worry about making. A certain amount of money. Yeah. Your goal might be $1,000 a month. To start, don't worry about that. Worry about making a dollar. If you can make a dollar a day or whatever consistently, then you can. Worry about making $2. But it's a lot easier to learn. To make that dollar more than it is with these big numbers.

[00:21:34.320] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And I think indeed that starts all with the mindset, like how do you step in there? Like if you want to make a big amount of money quickly, then you will always rush it. Right, but what's the rush? Well, the rush is if people don't make money next to trading, they are in a hurry because they have a need that has to be fulfilled. But I always say to my students, the need is always there, whether you make money or you don't make money trading or with your business. Because everyone has a need to pay the bills, right? The need is always there. The thing is, like, how do you perform despite the need? Because if you say, I'm stressed because I need to make money. Yeah, everyone needs to make money because we need money to live, that's very normal. But you have to learn how to deal with that pressure. And then when you have a family, now you have a bigger family than just four, right? So basically what I hear you saying is you have always kept an extra income next to so you had multiple sources of income, basically to be able to trade without the pressure, right?

[00:22:56.760] - Casey

Yes. And trading without pressure, I think is important. And in life in general, that's why another reason why that 10% is so important is because of margin, because nothing moves in a straight line. It's always like up and down. Right. And so you need to be able. To withstand downs, because if it comes. Down and you start feeling squeezed and your emotions start kicking in, that's when you're going to start making a lot of mistakes. And so I really appreciated that you. Just said in a hurry, and I don't know if I can get people to believe me when I tell them that. So I want to know if you. Have found a way to get people to actually believe you when you tell them that they're in too much of a hurry. And what's your secret about it?

[00:23:47.020] - Agnieszka

Well, I think the key here is what I help them to disconnect from is to help them understand what is their hurry, and what is the real need that they have. And once you realize everyone has the need, what really makes you have pressure is something else that they need. It's all the things that people put in their heads. So I try to listen very carefully to what they say to me because people will tell you literally with their words what's in their head. Right. So usually it's about them making it if you will. They just want to be successful. They just want to finally, after all this struggle, they just want to finally be done with that pressure. It's not even about the money. Right. And that is where that hurry comes from. Because there is this idea of one day that is going to come and then after that day when I made it. Everything will be beautiful in my life, and I will never have problems, and my trading will be fantastic. I'll be making money every day. This day does not exist, so don't hurry. There is nowhere to hurry too because it's a day-to-day process. Just like when you work for a boss, when you work for your own company or trading, you go in, and every day you put in effort. The next day you do the same thing. And the day after and the day after. It's not that. When you have a job, you think, oh, I have to hurry because one day, finally the job is over. No, there will be always something to do. So even when you are trading, you will always learn. You will always have that pressure because it's a high-pressure environment. And what you need to learn is to release that pressure, release that need of desperation. I think it's a lot about being desperate, and we know that if you're desperate, you will never get a good deal. Right? I like to compare them. When you need a car and you go to a dealership, they will smell it. If you're desperate, you will not get a good deal. So don't be desperate. Don't be desperate. In the market.

[00:26:29.780] - Casey

Yeah, the market knows when you're desperate.

[00:26:33.610] - Agnieszka

Exactly.

[00:26:34.060] - Casey

The market knows. Man, that's really good!

[00:26:36.430] - Agnieszka

Thanks.

[00:26:36.880] - Casey

That's really good because, man, I'm always. In a hurry, and well, not always. I'm getting a lot better, but that's been very difficult for me. So, my son, he's 16, and he. Doesn’t have any means, right? I mean, I take care of all of his stuff, and he has a job, too, and he makes money, and yet he's in a huge hurry. He's 16, and he's just like, me. Got to do this. He's 16, and he's like, I need. To start this business, I need. To make all this money, I need to do this. I'm like, why?

[00:27:13.530] - Agnieszka

Yeah.

[00:27:14.060] - Casey

So this is some good I need to talk to him about this. I don't know. When I tell him, he doesn't necessarily listen to me because he's very young, but you don't need to be in a hurry. He's like, yes, I do. I need it now. But it's that same he feels like he needs to make it. He needs to do something great. That's what it is.

[00:27:32.190] - Agnieszka

Yeah. So now the question is, okay, so where do you need to get to? Where do you want to get to? What's the hurry? Okay, and now you're there. And now what?

[00:27:42.580] - Casey

Yeah, so now you are there.

[00:27:45.300] - Agnieszka

What do you think happens? Do you think life stops or what? Do you think you're ready? And then what you'll be sipping on?

[00:27:52.310] - Casey

Yeah, then you're miserable. Anyways.

[00:27:55.850] - Agnieszka

I know. It's really funny that you said it, because some of my students, actually, their whole idea was to trade just maybe three times a week right? Just three trades a week. And then they got all this time on their hands. Now they're doing it. And then there is the next problem popping up. What do I do with all my time?

[00:28:19.860] - Casey

Right? Yeah. Well, I try to talk to people. About that on the front end. Right? I talk to that on the front end. Because before you start trading, you need to have a purpose. Right. A purpose is really important, and that's. Why I like working. Okay. I want to teach people to trade. I'm going to make some trades, and. Then I'm going to work on creating content. I want to help people learn to trade.

[00:28:49.600] - Agnieszka

Absolutely.

[00:28:50.040] - Casey

I want to help them accomplish their dreams.

[00:28:51.970] - Agnieszka

Yes. Because I work with my students on defining a mission and their vision for life. Because it's not like, okay, you can have some goals, but then you achieve them, and then what else is there? Right. And that when you have something that is bigger than yourself. That's really where your efforts matter. And that's also what will push you through those difficult moments when things are not going that great or when it's difficult to be consistent. I run this challenge in April with my students of everyone picked their habits. We have, like, an app that tracks that. And there is an award if you have 80 or over percent of the habits that you are able to stick to. So consistency, right? It's not easy, especially if you really work on this consistency. For many people, trading is impossible because they cannot be consistent in their life. So having your own business, which you have a lot of experience in, and being a trader, has a lot of things in common. Right. One of them is the uncertainty of income because you just never know what will come in, especially at the beginning, whether you begin your business or whether you begin trading. And to bring money in consistently, you really have to keep putting in your effort consistently, just like with those habits. And even then, there are no real guarantees because you don't control other people, right? You only control yourself. So what was your way to deal with that uncertainty? And does that pressure that this uncertainty causes ever go away? Because now you have a big family, you're running a business, and you have run multiple businesses. Does this pressure ever go away?

[00:31:04.230] - Casey

Wow. I would say no. There's always a responsibility. When you have a responsibility, then that creates extra pressure. But I honestly think it's a good thing. So I have people working for me. And I like to hire young people. And so whenever they get married and they have a kid, I get really excited because now I know that they're. A lot more responsible than they were before. Right. Now they have to actually show up to work like before. You know, what if they took a few days off? No big deal. But. Now they have to be there. There's something about responsibility that when people are counting on you, that really helps keep you focused.

[00:31:53.390] - Agnieszka

That is so beautiful. It's actually a great perspective because from a trading perspective, that could be instead of a pressure builder, could be a motivator for people. I have to stick to my road because I have a responsibility towards my family. Right. Seeing it from the positive perspective, actually having this responsibility helps me to stay disciplined instead of, oh, my God, all this responsibility on my head. I have to make money quickly, so let me just throw some money into this stock because it's moving like crazy.

[00:32:26.850] - Casey

Yeah. I look at my life as kind of like when you think about the. Gym as a business person and as a trader, I have a certain level of capacity. Capacity is the amount of a load. That I can personally carry, whether that's responsibilities, whether that's how much money I can handle, all of those different things are in my bucket. Right. What I can carry in my bucket. And so, as a human being, I. Want to work on increasing my capacity. And the only way to increase your capacity is to push the limits. Right. If you're not going to push the limits, if you're not going to go through the pain, some people say it's getting out of your comfort zone, but getting out of your comfort zone, pushing the limits, doing things you've never done before and not giving up, that's how you increase your capacity.

[00:33:19.160] - Agnieszka

Wow, I just got goosebumps. This is just like gold, people, you got to write this down. Seriously, Casey, this is fantastic. This is a great way to see that, because that getting out of our comfort zone, that pressure that we are experiencing in life or in the market, is what always causes resistance. Right. Something we try to avoid. But the way you bring it is actually a very positive thing. And instead of getting scared of it and trying to run away from it and fight it, lean into it and let it help you to be able to carry more. That's so beautiful. Wow.

[00:34:10.590] - Casey

Thanks. Yeah. That's how you change. And I think we go from a mindset we don't see that going in. And so if we embrace it, we have the mindset, oh, this is changing me. Yes. This is uncomfortable. But if I believe I have faith, I think faith is a really important part. I'm always trusting God with my life. Like, okay, I'm going to come out okay through this.

[00:34:35.500] - Agnieszka

Yes. My yoga teacher would say, what you resist persists. What you embrace passes with grace. He always liked that... [chuckles]

[00:34:47.080] - Casey

Embrace! Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

[00:34:51.710] - Agnieszka

So is there anything else that you would like to tell our listeners that could help them to relieve that pressure of responsibility to provide for their family?

[00:35:05.010] - Casey

Well, I think we covered most of it. I mean, getting a good education will help, but just not giving up. And I would also say get help, get help. Find a friend. Finding a real friend in life is. Really hard because you're embarrassed. Like, oh man, I don't want to. Tell Agnieszka about all these problems. She thinks I'm a cool person. I don't want to tell her about this, how could I do that? But a real friend is not going. To point the finger or say, well, you know what, you made this mistake. You made that mistake. They're just going to help you. They're like, okay, well, you're doing okay, keep going. Or maybe you could try this. You know, just getting somebody in your life, right? I have, I have. So that's a big secret. I have a lot of good people in my life, people that, that support me, people that have a lot more. Experience than me, people that I can share things with. Like, I just do life with people. I don't do life alone. I get experienced people that really care. About me in my life.

[00:36:21.790] - Agnieszka

That's beautiful. That is beautiful. And I think that also helps to create a sort of softness also towards yourself. Because we tend to be very hard on ourselves, especially ambitious people. And most people who get into trading are very ambitious. And I always recommend treating yourself like you would a good friend, become your best friend as well. Because if you can be your own friend, instead of putting yourself down all the time and calling yourself words when things don't go right, that will help you so much knowing that you actually have an ally in you. Right. Because it will be also easier, just like a good friend, it will be easier for you to admit that you're wrong. And in trading, trying to be right and proving yourself right, it's a big issue. Right. So being your own friend helps you in a lot of different areas in trading and then plus having great people around you to support you, that's the key.

[00:37:35.570] - Casey

Yeah, it can be hard to learn to be a friend to yourself. Like you said, ambitious people like, oh my goodness, look at all of the. Mistakes I made, this whole thing. So I always tell people, don't blame. Other people because that's a disaster. That will never work. Don't ever blame anybody. But then again, blaming yourself doesn't work. Either because, yeah, sure, you made the mistakes. Yeah, it's your fault. Yeah, you're a total loser and a total failure. Yes, that's all true. But if you say that stuff about yourself, you're going to dwell on it instead. I just like it. If my thought pops in, I get it out, I replace it. I do thought replacement. Oh, you're a loser. No, I'm going to persevere. I'm going to change my behavior. I'm going to do something different. Yes, this circumstance isn't good, but I'm going to push through. Right. I try to be a good friend of myself and you got to learn how to do that. That's a skill.

[00:38:35.200] - Agnieszka

That is a skill and that's one of the skills that I teach because we have about 70,000 thoughts a day and there's a lot to manage and we definitely don't have to believe all of them, most of them not. And they are simply not helping us and definitely being aware of that process. And I know that in general, we call this mindfulness. I do like to call it to mind awareness rather because when your mind is full that nothing good comes from it. I take words very literally.

[00:39:11.990] - Casey

That's a great idea. I think good is important.

[00:39:15.170] - Agnieszka

Yes, totally. Especially the words that we tell you and mindful.

[00:39:18.910] - Casey

I never thought of that. See, I'm learning a lot, like I. A lot of times forget things because as I talked about capacity, I'm trying to do 50 million things and so sometimes I forget the most basic stuff, right?

[00:39:33.380] - Agnieszka

And you know, mental awareness really helps you to be in the moment because this is really where all these other problems disappear. To be in the moment and dealing with something right now, not something that might happen in the future because 90% of those things are not going to happen that we are afraid of. Things that happened in the past already happened. So it doesn't make sense to dwell on those too. Blame doesn't really help anyone, should have doesn't help anything. So when you can focus on what is happening right now and really enjoy that process that is something that I strive to personally be there all the time with all the hundred thousand things that I'm with ideas. And trying to do to bring them to life. Sometimes it's pretty challenging because I am, in general, very a person with a lot of different ideas. And if I could, I would start working on them all at the same time, immediately. So trading is a sort of meditative experience at this point for me where I can actually focus on one thing and I think that is something that a lot of people could strive towards because that will help you also experience life instead of rushing to someplace in the future, forgetting to live.

[00:41:06.140] - Casey

That's good.

[00:41:09.590] - Agnieszka

Well, thank you so much, Casey, that was a great conversation, I really enjoyed it, and thank you so much for sharing all these insights that from your experience, which is an absolutely captivating and inspiring story. We know each other for several years but I had no idea of a lot of them. So thank you for sharing that. I really enjoy that. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode, and I hope it will help traders who are listening to gain some new perspectives and understand that making the transition to trade for a living, it's always a decision about being able to handle the uncertainty and the load and the pressure and do everything to like Casey said, increase your capacity and making sure that you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Right. Let go of the worry and focus on your effort instead of focusing on the result, focusing on the process, and not rushing into anything, but just being grateful for what you have right now. And if you have a job that is paying you your bills, don't try to quit it as soon as possible. Make sure that you have something instead or next to it so that you don't create unnecessary pressure and let this transition happen organically. An attitude of gratitude, I think, is really key here.

Thank you for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. If you enjoy my show, please review it and rate it on the Apple podcast and be sure to subscribe so you can come back for a real-life conversation in the next episode. Until then, this is Agnieszka Wood from ahead. Coach. And don't forget, you too can realize your dreams without losing yourself and you’re in the process.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/

In this episode Agnieszka has a special guest, Kristen Vallejo - a thriving entrepreneur, a lifestyle photographer, and... a wife of the trader. Together they explore the world of trading but this time from a different perspective - a partner of a trader. Kristen and Agnieszka discuss challenges of trading faced not only by traders, but also by their partners, shedding light on the intricate web of emotions that both navigate. They emphasize the difficulty in providing advice or support, as the trader needs to come to their own decisions. Agnieszka shares her own story of how her trading impacted her husband. They both highlight the importance of emotional support and understanding in periods of poor trading decisions.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to gain insight into how the trading world can affect relationships and how to overcome those obstacles together.

About Kristen Vallejo

Over the years Kristen has become known for her light-hearted and thoughtful approach to portrait photography, and for the five-star experience that she provides to all of my clients. Empowering people to fall in love with photography (and themselves) gets her out of bed in the morning and drives her to continuously reinvent herself. She is a thorough planner, a dedicated listener, and she wants YOU to be the star of your own show.

Kristen eats, sleeps and breaths photography. If you start a new business, want to level up your dating game, refresh your corporate headshot, or you're ready to treat yourself to a transformational experience – Kristen is your go to. In a session with her you’ll laugh, you’ll feel empowered, and as she says "you’ll walk away with the best pictures that you have ever seen of yourself. You’ll feel free to be YOU, worthy of time and attention, and safe in a judgement-free zone. You will leave your session with self-confidence, and maybe you’ll feel just a tad invincible!"

Contact Agnieszka Wood | Ahead Coach: 

• Website: aheadcoach.com
• Twitter: @Ahead_Coach
• YouTube: @aheadcoach
• Facebook: Agnieszka Wood
• Instagram: ahead.coach
• LinkedIn: Agnieszka Wood

Contact Kristen Vallejo:

• Website: www.kristenvallejo.com
• Facebook: Kristen Vallejo Photography
• Instagram: kristen_vallejo_photography
• LinkedIn: AKristen Basar Vallejo

--

Transcript

[00:00:03.730] - Agnieszka

Welcome to the Confidence in Trading podcast. I am Agnieszka Wood and I am very excited to introduce my special guest, Kristen Vallejo. Kristen is a successful entrepreneur and a lifestyle photographer, capturing people and their pets in magazine-style scenarios to help them tell their stories, sell their products, connect, and feel empowered. When she does not have her hands on the camera she's either cooking, playing with dogs, or working out on her peloton. She's also a big fan of Yin Yoga, cheese, coffee, and BlackBerry pie. And some day she wants to live in a little stone house in the European countryside. All this sounds absolutely amazing and seems like a pretty relaxing lifestyle. What I did not mention to you yet is that she's also the wife of one of my former students. That's how I met Kristen and it's exactly what I want to talk about today. The trading journey was experienced from the sideline as a wife of a trader. Welcome, to episode number seven, behind every trader The Untold Story of their partner. Hi Kristen. Welcome to my podcast and thank you so much for your willingness to come into the spotlight and share your personal experience and perspective on this topic.

[00:01:32.020] - Kristen

Hi, Agnieszka. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:35.010] - Agnieszka

So training is such a hot topic these days, especially with COVID a lot of new people stepping into the arena, and soon after finding out that it's not easy as it seems. Can you tell us a little bit more about your first contact with trading?

[00:01:53.050] - Kristen

Sure. Trading was always something that felt foreign to me. I grew up in a small town in Ohio and finance New York City, the stock exchange trading were not at the top of everyone's minds at that time. So when I was in grade school and in high school, I had very little exposure to anything financial and probably first started hearing about it when I got to college. But as you could tell by my intro, I am a fine arts person. So math, numbers, anything like that wasn't really in my purview. And to be honest, at that time in my life, I steered clear of numbers as much as possible because it made me uncomfortable. It changed a little bit, but it really wasn't until my mid twenty s I got a job as a graphic designer at an investment bank.

[00:02:51.730] - Agnieszka

Oh, wow.

[00:02:52.420] - Kristen

Yeah. Weird, right? So started to learn a little bit about the culture and what was going on there and it became a little more palpable to me than it had in the past.

[00:03:02.110] - Agnieszka

Okay, so that's how your first contact with it was. How did you feel about it? Were you immediately interested? Because a lot of people who get in touch with trading and stock market and they see, oh my God, this is a way I can make money. Were you ever inspired to just try yourself? Being in that environment?

[00:03:25.230] - Kristen

That didn't really happen until recently, honestly. In my early 20s, when I first was exposed to investment banking, to be really honest, I was very turned off by the culture. My job was kind of the bottom of the barrel. I got to work on everything when there were deadlines and everybody was amped up and this was the mid-90, and investment banking was having its heyday. It was crazy. So the environment was crazy and aggressive. At least that's how it felt to me at the time. So it actually kind of pushed me a little further away from being interested in finance because I was like, that is not the life for me.

[00:04:09.730] - Agnieszka

You were like, that's exactly what I thought finance is.

[00:04:13.330] - Kristen

Yeah, [chuckles].

[00:04:15.630] - Agnieszka

That's why I don't like it.

[00:04:17.890] - Kristen

Confirmed. So still, at that point, I didn't think I would touch it with a ten-foot pole.

[00:04:25.350] - Agnieszka

All right, so when did you decide to touch it? Did it change or how did you meet guys with Rob? Was it not until you met Rob that you actually got back into looking at stocks or at the market?

[00:04:42.380] - Kristen

Yeah, I would say that's true, and even not at the very beginning. And oddly enough, we met at Goldman Sachs. So I had been living in San Francisco and worked in this design capacity at an investment bank, wanted to move to New York, got a transfer from one investment bank job to another one, and was still immersed in that culture. But from such a different perspective, when you're in those administrative roles, you don't really understand the financial opportunities, even though you're working within that realm since you were there, pounding away at jobs that support it, and you're not seeing the same financial benefits that those employees are, you don't understand how lucrative and rewarding it can be. So at that point in my life, it was just a job, it was a paycheck, it was something I had to get in and do and get as far away from as possible. And when I met Rob, we had dual roles at Goldman. He was in one building and I was in another, doing the same job. And he was intrigued by the atmosphere. I wanted to get the hell away from it. But hearing his perspective and what he wanted to learn from it and how he wanted to change his life with it, always piqued my interest and the nature of our relationship is that we're both very respectful of one another's interests and support. So I listened and I paid attention and I did my best to learn about what he was doing so that I could support him.

[00:06:16.980] - Agnieszka

So was he already trading at that time when he was working for Goldman Sachs? For himself?

[00:06:21.950] - Kristen

He was not. He as well as in an administrative role, but rather than being repelled by it like I was, he was drawn into it and wanted to get some of that for himself in some way. So when we first met and got together, he was just talking about wanting to do it. And it took a few years into our relationship for him to take steps toward actually being a trader.

[00:06:45.370] - Agnieszka

So when he told you, hey, listen, I'm going to be a trader, what was your first initial reaction? What did you think?

[00:06:52.550] - Kristen

I think by that point, I had kind of softened my feelings about the financial world and had a more objective and open-minded approach to it. And it's funny. Funnily enough, I hadn't thought about this, but we read a book. I think it was a biography of Warren Buffett. Rob wanted to listen to it in the car on the way to work one time.

[00:07:18.990] - Agnieszka

All right.

[00:07:19.520] - Kristen

And that book, I think, changed my mind about things to really understand the power of finance and how it didn't need to be this elusive thing behind the curtain, that it could be something that was accessible to both of us. So my mind was open by the time he got around to it.

[00:07:38.530] - Agnieszka

So did you know what you were getting into? Because day trading is very different than investing.

[00:07:46.730] - Kristen

I had no idea.

[00:07:51.830] - Agnieszka

What did you feel at that time? How did you imagine it to go? Did you have any pictures of it? How it's going to influence your life?

[00:08:00.830] - Kristen

No, I didn't. And since my experience with it had been watching what would you call, a pretty typical progression, right? A person goes to college, gets their finance degree, gets picked up by a firm, gets put through the rigmarole of 90 hours work weeks, and then spits them out to be a millionaire at the end. At least that's what it looked like. So when he told me he wanted to do this, I think I was a little afraid of not having time with him. I thought maybe he would get sucked into this lifestyle that was so counter to what we had created for ourselves. We were both really hard workers and have had our own businesses and put the hours in, but the reason we became our own bosses was so that we could have freedom and time. And I was a little concerned in the beginning that he was going to be whisked away on that path.

[00:09:02.430] - Agnieszka

Didn't you have a feeling because a lot of traders get into trading to have freedom where you're not like, but you have freedom?

[00:09:10.290] - Kristen

Yeah, I think he was really zeroed in on the financial freedom, and at that point, since we don't have kids, so that's not an issue to have to be around for children. But I think he still felt energetic enough that if it was going to take time, that was okay with him, but it wasn't necessarily okay with me.

[00:09:33.750] - Agnieszka

So what did you tell him? Were you just very diplomatic or how did you do that?

[00:09:41.210] - Kristen

I think the way that we cope with all things when one of us throws something new out is - let's explore it and feel it out and look at the pros and cons. And I don't think there are very many things that even if I don't have the most positive outlook on, I won't still at least try. And I never would have said, I don't want you to do this or this isn't for you. There have been a few things that we've tried out over the years that haven't worked out, but we're glad that we gave it a try anyway, just to see.

[00:10:13.880] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:10:14.340] - Kristen

So I didn't really need to be diplomatic because I was willing to give it a try.

[00:10:19.530] - Agnieszka

Yeah, okay. I mean, it's really good to have the openness, right? Especially like, if you're not sure, what are you getting yourself into? And you can always think, okay, if it doesn't work, then you just stop.

[00:10:31.880] - Kristen

Yes, exactly.

[00:10:32.940] - Agnieszka

And that's very interesting because with trading, somehow, once you get into trading, it's not so easy to stop.

[00:10:41.150] - Kristen

I see that!

[00:10:44.320] - Agnieszka

Even people who do stop, somewhere deep down, they have this thought, you know, one day I'll get back to it.

[00:10:49.252] - Kristen

I can see that...

[00:10:50.080] - Agnieszka

There's this draw, it's pretty incredible. And many traders have great plans, and most of them, don't really think that they are going to be losing money. Right. Because the idea is to make money. So they don't really treat it as business at first and say, okay, I will have to invest certain money. It's only that image of how much money I will make. And the second part of it is they don't really realize they will be struggling emotionally.

[00:11:17.610] - Kristen

Yeah.

[00:11:19.850] - Agnieszka

That's the biggest thing on the journey. Right. And then the reality hits.

[00:11:26.020] - Kristen

Yes.

[00:11:26.970] - Agnieszka

How did it look from your side? Did you see that switch of being enthusiastic, learning a new thing, and then suddenly, oh, there is the wall.

[00:11:37.230] - Kristen

In the beginning, it's funny because before I was going to talk to you, I was thinking about all of these things. And since Rob approached this very slowly, it took quite a while for all these things to reveal themselves. And there were so many different things that he tried to learn and platform, so to speak, different people as teachers, different ways of learning. And I'm listening to all of this with him because it's online and I can hear it and sitting here thinking like, oh, my God, that person's a terrible teacher, or, oh, how can he deal with listening to that? And that's where a lot of my judgments came in, is not so much business he was getting into, but who are these people teaching him? And the pain for me in that was thinking, oh, there's got to be somebody who presents this information more clearly or isn't so egocentric about it. I would be working on my pictures and editing and hearing whatever lesson he was. One of the things that was a little unsettling at first was how much he flipped around through teachers, flipped around through trading platforms. And it was hard for me to understand at first. Like, this is going to take some time to figure out. There is no one size fits all. And he's got to find the right teaching style and the right information, and I could relate. When I first started to learn photography, I didn't know what questions I had. I didn't know which questions to ask. I didn't know how to get started. And for my profession, the instruments are pretty clear cut, like the triangle and the light ratios, they're all kind of scientific, and this is what it is. And then you put your own artistic flair on it. But since he was learning something so intricate, in my opinion, intricate, complicated, dependent on psychological and sociological factors, it's like getting multi-levels of education at one time and trying to have to pick through which pieces make sense and how they influence your trading. And I just find it mind-blowing how complicated it can be.

[00:13:55.930] - Agnieszka

Yeah, and it's pretty amazing because nothing is black and white, right? Pretty much whatever question you ask, the answer could be, it depends.

[00:14:06.050] - Kristen

Yeah, I saw that. So I want to make sure that I answered your question.

[00:14:12.770] - Agnieszka

Whether you saw this switch from learning and being enthusiastic, to the struggle. Like, did you notice when the struggle?

[00:14:20.030] - Kristen

Started taking place, it would come in waves. So once he got through the pain, what questions do I ask? Who do I get to help me? Then the new pains were, now I have really specific questions, and nobody will answer these questions. I feel like overall, the biggest challenge for him is to just find mentors that will be forthcoming with information or at least point him in the right direction. And since he didn't have an economics background or a quote, unquote, or financial education, he was kind of starting from scratch with everything. So once he got that stuff ironed out, which kind of took a few years, then it was, well, what kind of trader am I going to be? Am I going to be a swing trader? Am I going to be a day trader? Am I going to be a long-term investor? And he would try out a little bit of this for a couple of months and a little bit for a couple of months, and you were like.

[00:15:16.870] - Agnieszka

Oh, my God, this is like training to be a doctor.

[00:15:20.190] - Kristen

Yes. It's taking forever. There was one time in particular I'm going to say this was probably about five years ago, where he really dramatically hit a wall and threw away all his books that he had bought. I'm not doing this. I quit. I can't do it, and then was faced with, okay, well, I've invested so much time in this. Now what am I going to do? And that was the first time I had seen him express so much frustration, and I lasted about a week. I'll admit I was a little nervous, like, okay, God, what is he going to do? And supporting that up and down. And that kind of emotion is tough because at least from my perspective, I want him to see this through. I know it's important to him. I know how much he's put into this, and I would feel heartbroken for him if he decided not to do it. And that first time, it was looking like that's what was going to happen. But then he dug all the books out of the trash. Yes, which is hilarious in hindsight, but at the time, it was very dug all the books back out of the trash, got back to it, and put his head so we've had a few similar moments over the years, but they usually only last about a day [chuckles].

[00:16:51.730] - Agnieszka

He never told me about that. [chuckles]

[00:16:53.140] - Kristen

I figured that [chuckles]! It sticks in my mind because I watched the visual, so it's in there, and it was funny, but it was sad at the same time.

[00:17:05.160] - Agnieszka

Yeah, it must have been hard to it's like, on one hand, you want to end the suffering from your husband. On the other hand, you don't want him to quit because you know that then he would suffer, too. And what's the right way? What's the right thing to say as a partner? I can imagine that that must be pretty difficult.

[00:17:30.270] - Kristen

It is... It is. And he's I mean, you've worked with him. He's been your client, so you know how he thinks, and he's the kind of person that really needs to come to decisions on his own. He takes my opinion into consideration, but there isn't much that I can do other than just be patient and wait it out. And I am having parallel experiences in growing my business, too. And even though they're such different businesses, there are a lot of similarities in the emotional nature of the ups and downs. For stock traders, it's ups and downs all day long of what the information is doing. For creative people, it's ups and downs of, okay, I'm really busy this month, and now this month, I don't have any work. The biggest difference, I think, is you guys are so self-reliant, and your worth is so tied up in that performance. Right. Like, if you're not having a larger ratio of wins over losses, it eats away at your ego. It eats away at how you feel about yourself. And that's been very challenging, is how do you watch from afar and convince someone, like, look, you're not doing as bad as you think you are, but all they can see is lose, lose, lose, lose.

[00:18:54.470] - Agnieszka

Yeah. It becomes very personal, and I think that also makes it very difficult for the partner to give any type of advice, because let's say you have some issue in your business, right? You can put that issue on the table and talk about it as maybe the photo wasn't really good. The client is not happy because of the quality or whatever, you can kind of put yourself I'm not sure you have to tell me if that's true. You can put yourself easier outside of it because there is a clear product that's coming out of your hands, a physical product.

[00:19:33.100] - Kristen

I think that's true to a certain extent, but where it marries with the trading, is that eating away at how you feel about yourself? Because as a creative person, this is a reflection of you. Right.

[00:19:49.080] - Agnieszka

That is true. Because it's your personal flavor that you put into it.

[00:19:53.290] - Kristen

Exactly. So it's been surprising, the parallels we've had emotionally with these businesses, being that they're so different, but they both end up being tied up in self-worth. And how do you be more accepting of yourself, the mistakes, and the learning process, and not have all of your worth tied up into one thing.

[00:20:18.550] - Agnieszka

So with that respect, it was actually maybe made it easier for you to understand what he's going through, projecting all those failures on himself.

[00:20:27.760] - Kristen

Exactly. Yeah.

[00:20:29.480] - Agnieszka

That's very interesting. I remember when I was learning to trade, my husband was already trading for many, many years. And when I was going through my difficult period for two years, it really took two years. It was horrible. I would like, to bang my head against the wall every day and then do well and then blow up again. We would go for a walk. I remember like, at the end of the day, the market closes and he's like, okay, let's go out, let's go for a walk. And we used to have a dog at that time. And we would walk around the neighborhood and I would cry day in, day out. And he would just walk next to me, just like, don't worry, tomorrow is another day. And just trying to keep me positive. But yeah, seeing from now back, I think this must have been a horrible period for him because, in a sense, I also got into trading. I don't want to say because of him, but that's how I got in touch with trading because he was trading and I got intrigued by it. So he kind of felt responsible for my failure. Knowing from my own experience, when you struggle with building consistency, it is really not easy to disconnect yourself from it because again, you project it on yourself and then in the end, you bring that into the dining table. Right. And your day is basically defined by two colors, either green or red.

[00:22:14.480] - Kristen

Yeah [chuckles]

[00:22:16.090] - Agnieszka

And the whole family, the moment you walk out of your office, the whole family knows what day there was. Was this also to that degree in your house?

[00:22:26.590] - Kristen

I think it's extra challenging since we both work from home. Right. We are together a lot. I mean, way more than the average people are. And that works for us. We enjoy each other's company. And we're happy to be here supporting one another. But yeah, we are in each other's energy pretty much all day, so I don't have to wait for the end of the day or the dinner table. I know what's going on every minute. It's funny because there was a while where I would always say how to go, how's it going? What's the market doing? But then I realized I should just not ask, because even though I wasn't putting pressure on him, I was just being curious or wanting to be helpful, me asking was an added level of pressure. Right.

[00:23:18.020] - Agnieszka

Right.

[00:23:19.630] - Kristen

Hopefully, stoped doing that. I don't think I do it as much as I used to.

[00:23:23.650] - Agnieszka

This Rob gave you some kind of was he informing you, like, what would help him if you do this? That would be really helpful. Like, for example, don't ask me those questions. How was the approach from his side? Because I know that a lot of traders, do feel guilt, responsibility, and sometimes shame, because they are trying to achieve something, and they know, okay, my partner is looking, and I'm not able to do this.

[00:23:55.710] - Kristen

So there is some tension, I'm sure that's definitely happening. And my intentions and my energy toward it have always been from a, you will eventually get this standpoint, and for now, it's going to be up and down, and sometimes you're going to lose money. And I can wrap my head around that. I look at it like me spending money on my business, on marketing. That doesn't work. Right. You don't know which marketing campaigns are going to work or which things that you invest in. You can't know right away, so sometimes you waste some money. I can think of plenty of times that I've said, "Yup, you know I'll do that ad", or "Put me on that golf course". Not one lick of business comes from that. But I try not to beat myself up about it because I wouldn't have known. And if I have that scarcity mentality about money, then I'm never going to be able to attract more to myself. So I try to encourage him from that perspective of, you have to take the risks, you have to take the chances. And I, as his partner, am okay with that. I don't dwell on the losses.

[00:25:06.930] - Agnieszka

But you would be a good trader.

[00:25:09.610] - Kristen

Pardon me?

[00:25:10.950] - Agnieszka

You would be a good trader.

[00:25:12.710] - Kristen

I'm told that every day. So we'll get to that [chuckles].

[00:25:17.170] - Agnieszka

All right, that's interesting.

[00:25:20.630] - Kristen

So I do ask him all the time how I can support him, and I think we have a pretty good system worked out, and a lot of times there isn't really anything I can do other than just go about my day and wait for him to feel better.

[00:25:38.010] - Agnieszka

Yeah, just be compassionate and loving.

[00:25:41.690] - Kristen

Exactly.

[00:25:42.750] - Agnieszka

Because I think that's the big thing. It's like when you beat yourself up because you had a red day and now you don't really feel that self-worth, the last thing you want is someone else to tell you, you know, about your mistakes.

[00:25:57.820] - Kristen

Right, exactly.

[00:25:58.480] - Agnieszka

You really want someone to come and hug you.

[00:26:00.610] - Kristen

Yeah.

[00:26:01.040] - Agnieszka

I remember I used to ask my husband, do you still love me? If I took like a bigger lot? Like, do you still love me? And he's looking at me like, what are you talking about?

[00:26:10.390] - Kristen

Of course, he does.

[00:26:13.590] - Agnieszka

It doesn't depend whether you have a green or red day.

[00:26:16.890] - Kristen

But it is funny how you feel like it's an expression of you that win or loss is so tied up in how you feel about yourself.

[00:26:28.240] - Agnieszka

Yeah. And eventually when you manage to disconnect and detach from that, not taking the self-worth from money. Because I think that's a lot of that's more in a culture where you translate your self-worth to what you make or what you were able to gather throughout your life. Your house, your car, and all those things, material things. I think then you're really tied up into like, okay, if I have a great day, I feel great about myself, but it's really disconnecting from it and focusing on rather on your effort and what you do, which is great. Not just for trading, but for life in general.

[00:27:09.240] - Kristen

I agree. Yeah. I've had to check myself once in a while, too. Like, okay, what else do I do besides photograph? There's other things. And I've always had a tendency towards workaholicism. That's a word. Yeah. But now I do more to have a more fulfilling day and not make it all about work.

[00:27:33.970] - Agnieszka

Yeah. Being able to let go. Right. It's almost like, at least in my experience, the more you let go, the more it comes to you. It's like you give space to actually things to come to you instead of trying to squeeze it.

[00:27:47.180] - Kristen

Yes, I agree.

[00:27:48.220] - Agnieszka

It is not easy to detach when you have your own business and when you really have to think like, okay, I have a client now, but what about the next day?

[00:27:56.570] - Kristen

Exactly. Yeah.

[00:27:57.820] - Agnieszka

And I have to say that personally trading really helped me to go through this process and to completely detach from that fear, from that need to hold on, like, okay, I need to make money. I need to make money because I have to pay the bills. And I always say now everyone has the need to pay the bills whether you have money or not. The need is always there.

[00:28:21.920] - Kristen

True.

[00:28:23.170] - Agnieszka

But how desperate you are to do that, that does not change the need, because the need is there.

[00:28:31.240] - Kristen

That's true.

[00:28:31.800] - Agnieszka

And it's better to be relaxed and putting effort in things that, you know, if I put effort in the right things, the money will come instead of just stressing about it. That doesn't change anything except for your own, how you feel. Basically, it stresses you up. So when was that moment that you thought and was there a moment that you thought, okay, now he's getting it and now he's getting more peaceful and we get our peace back in house? Or is it always kind of like you never know what to expect?

[00:29:09.390] - Kristen

No, I think the Pandemic was interesting for both of us. We have a separate business that we share that takes up a lot of our time. And I think being focused on that made it difficult for Rob to really buckle down and immerse himself in trading because that was what it required immersion. I think anything that anybody's doing that's going to majorly change their life, it's so much easier to do if you can immerse yourself in it. When you have to do it a little bit here and a little bit there, it's just so it just drags. Right. So not being able to work on our core business during the Pandemic let him immerse himself now, it was a weird market and maybe not what he's going to be typically trading, but it gave him the time to really think and methodically look through trades and learn new things and not have anything else as a distraction. I think that led to the beginning of being more peaceful about it. And then he worked with you and got well aware of some of the things he never would have thought were influencing his mind that was very personal and very not related to trading. And that made a big difference. And so now when the blow-ups, so to speak, happen, they're only an hour or two, and then he gets it together and feels okay.

[00:30:43.070] - Agnieszka

That's a huge improvement.

[00:30:44.360] - Kristen

It is a huge improvement. Yeah. I feel like his confidence grows daily and he's finally at a point where I feel like he has a strategy and a plan and he sticks to it. I think that one of the hardest things, was when things weren't quite going the way he thought they should, he would reconfigure the way he did everything instead of being patient and waiting for things to happen. And he's gained a lot of patience.

[00:31:17.330] - Agnieszka

Fantastic. Yeah, that's great to hear. He worked very hard on it together with me, too, to make sure that he sticks to your plan, because what is the plan worth if you cannot stick to it, right?

[00:31:29.820] - Kristen

Exactly.

[00:31:31.210] - Agnieszka

That's awesome. So now I'm terribly curious about that little hint you gave earlier. Are you getting into trading?

[00:31:40.200] - Kristen

I think I might.

[00:31:43.010] - Agnieszka

How did that come about?

[00:31:44.530] - Kristen

The finance hater has come full circle. So again, the Pandemic, where we both found ourselves unable to do our usual professions. I went a long time without a photography gig. A long time. And it really made me start thinking about other sources of income and what else can I be doing to just keep money coming in. And funny because I tend to have a knack for how do I synthesize information. I'll say it that way. So this is one of the ways that I support Rob is he'll read something and he'll say, tell me what that means. And I will read the paragraphs and I will spit it back out, back out to him in a way that he can understand. It great teamwork. And he'll say, Why aren't you a trader? I don't know. I don't want to. I don't want to. But more and more I feel like, you know, it's something that would help keep us afloat financially. And, you know, when I was telling you about me listening to all these courses with him, I'm also really good at working on my pictures and listening and retaining that information. So I am at the point of I think it's more than just a little bit of a fascination, and I'm ready to learn. So now I need to immerse myself and carve out that time. And I don't want it at the detriment of my photography because I do love doing it. So I need to figure out a way that I can learn enough that it's not going to take away from what I'm currently doing. So I haven't quite figured that out yet.

[00:33:28.610] - Agnieszka

That's so exciting. So you're at the beginning of the journey and now you know what you are getting yourself into. So it's like a very conscious decision.

[00:33:40.550] - Kristen

Well, it is a conscious decision. And I think I've gone through a lot of this pain with my current business, so that part of it doesn't really right now, it doesn't seem like something that will define me. So I think I can have a clear mind about getting into it, but we'll see. I'll talk to you after I get really into it.

[00:34:08.030] - Agnieszka

I can tell you one thing trading will always surprise you the ability to mirror everything that is like deep down in you. It has the ability to somehow drag it on the surface and trigger a lot of things.

[00:34:27.380] - Kristen

That's interesting because you would never think so. But I've watched this in, so I know exactly what you're talking about.

[00:34:33.960] - Agnieszka

Yeah, it's very interesting because we have a lot of contact with other people right, who trigger all kinds of things in us. Someone says something and you can always say "Ugh, that's not true, and it irritates this guy, irritates me." Right? But it is really not the guy who irritates you. He has triggered something in you that says more about you than about the guy. In the market, you cannot blame someone. You will try, probably you will try to blame the market, the stock, and whoever else. Maybe like if you are in a chat room somewhere, someone gave you a ticker, right? You can always blame them for it or the teacher that told you wrong. But in the end, you will realize that it doesn't matter. It doesn't make sense to blame anyone because, as you said, it is all on you. And the quicker you find out that it's all about you, the faster you will be able to disconnect from that personal feeling that everything is personal.

[00:35:44.180] - Kristen

Yeah.

[00:35:44.700] - Agnieszka

The personal element, detachment from it, from your self-worth, from being right, from having to make it. There are just so many factors that come into it. That's why I'm so excited for this journey, for you. Because for me personally, trading is not really just about trading and money, actually not at all. It's really that process of self-discovery that is helping you to enrich your life because you find out more to be in the present moment, and that just enriches your life in general.

[00:36:23.950] - Kristen

Yeah, I think being in the present moment has always been tough for me. I'm artsy and dreamy, but as I've gotten older, I turned 50 last. Well, I guess I'll be 51 in June. There's been a big change in me not really wanting to be like that anymore, wanting to be more in the present time. And I recently heard on a podcast, someone talking about killing off the version of yourself to become the new version. And the way he said it was like, oh, that sounds so aggressive. But at the same time, it's kind of the only way you really have to put the work in and discover the person that you want to be instead of the one that you always have been. And I can see where the trading journey facilitates that.

[00:37:13.560] - Agnieszka

Yeah, no, definitely. That is so exciting.

[00:37:16.990] - Kristen

I'm glad that surprised you [chuckles]!

[00:37:18.410] - Agnieszka

I am very surprised! Yes. But also very excited for you. For you both, actually, because I think the moment that Rob will see you going through that journey will also give him a sense of confidence because he will see how far he has come.

[00:37:39.250] - Kristen

Yeah, I'm sure.

[00:37:40.760] - Agnieszka

So I think it will work very well for you both and yeah, I will be watching on the sidelines, for sure.

[00:37:49.510] - Kristen

Thank you.

[00:37:53.190] - Agnieszka

Is there anything that you wish Rob would do or told you in an early stage that would help you support him in his journey, like, help you understand what he's going through or what you're both signing up for
 

[00:38:13.950] - Kristen

I don't know that there's anything he could have told me that would have made things different, because as I said, he wasn't really sure of what direction he was going in in the first place. He didn't know. I didn't know, and we've kind of done this together. I do think that if there's anybody listening to this that is supporting a spouse, I think it's really important to keep the pressure off as much as possible. What I've seen in other relationships is sometimes people who go into trading or professions like this go all in without a plan B. And I understand that I can be that kind of a person, but there's so much less pressure when you have an income source coming from somewhere else. And the other business that we have was, by design, made to have us be home and have time, and we do. And luckily that business has stayed afloat for 15 years and we're grateful to have that money to feed the other things that we're interested in doing. So I think it's important to give yourself the space to learn, but to also less pressure by having another income source.

[00:39:35.530] - Agnieszka

Thank you for that. This is, I think, so helpful because I have come across traders that are actually in the situation, everything put everything in, and it does create incredible pressure on the family, on the whole family. Not just a spouse, but also children, if there are children. And I think the one thing that you mentioned that is incredibly important is making sure that even if you don't know exactly what you're signing up for, you are both signing up for it.

[00:40:10.260] - Kristen

Absolutely.

[00:40:10.920] - Agnieszka

For that not knowing and still going into it. Because of that type of decision, it is not just, okay, I'm just going to have a new job, right? No, there is going to be an impact. Everyone involved around you will be impacted by it.
 

[00:40:28.510] - Kristen

Yeah. And I think it's important to give your partner the space to immerse themselves. That might mean they don't have time for certain other things. I mentioned that at the beginning. I was a little worried about that, but I saw how important this was to him and it was fine. We made it work.

[00:40:51.940] - Agnieszka

Very good. That's an awesome story, and thank you so much for sharing it. It also kind of brings me back a little bit from a different perspective, but yeah, it's just thinking about that impact and I don't think it's really lit enough in that industry. We talk a lot about traders, but there is always I call this gray eminence that someone behind you that is supporting you in all that, the journey, and that it's either your wife or your partner sometimes could be a friend, but it's really important that that person is there. That's definitely key. Well, that brings us to the end of this episode, and I hope it will help traders who are listening to this to understand that their trading struggle is affecting their partners and support them on this journey. The support network is incredibly important in trading, but if people do not understand what you're going through, they cannot give you the support that you need. And it is your responsibility as a trader to make sure that they know and also to respect that they might not want to go through it. And in that case, just keep your problems, your work problems at work, and don't bring them to the dining table.

[00:42:20.270] - Agnieszka

Thank you so much, Kristen, for joining us and for this incredibly enlightening conversation today. And I really appreciate you sharing your experience and your true feelings with us.

[00:42:33.360] - Kristen

It was my pleasure. I always share true feelings.

[00:42:37.890] - Agnieszka

That's awesome. That's what this podcast is about. Thank you for listening to the Confidence in Trading podcast. If you enjoyed my show, please review it and rate it on the Apple podcast. And be sure to subscribe so you can come back for a real-life conversation in the next episode. Until then, this is Agnieszka Wood from Ahead Coach. And don't forget, you too can realize your dream without losing yourself and your confidence in the process.

____________________________________

✉ Contact me: [email protected]

____________________________________

▶️ My website: https://www.aheadcoach.com/

▶️ Twitter: https://twitter.com/Ahead_Coach

▶️ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/agnieszkawoodpage/