Consumer VC

Hello and welcome to The Consumer VC. I am your host Mike Gelb and on this show we talk about the world of venture capital and consumer facing startups.

Thank you very much Natalie Dillon for the intro to today's guests, Jessica Rolph and Rod Morris, the co-founders of Lovevery, Staged-based play essentials designed by experts, built for babies and toddlers up to age 3. Previously, Jessica co-founded and served as COO of Happy Family, an extremely successful organic baby food company. Rod previously was the Senior Vice President at Opower. Going into this episode, I didn't know much about toys and learning behavior for babies, so I learned a ton and Jessica and Rod make it so easy to digest how they are thinking differently about child development with Lovevery. Without further ado, here they are.

You can follow Jessica @rolphjessica and Rod @roderickmorris. You can also follow your host, Mike, on Twitter @mikegelb. You can also follow for episode announcements @consumervc.

If you’re enjoying the show, if you could leave a review on the apple podcast app as that helps other folks find it, that would be really helpful. If you are a founder and working on something innovative, have a question you’d like to hear VCs or founders answer on the show you can DM me and follow me on Twitter @mikegelb. You can also follow for episode announcements @consumervc. For all episodes, please visit theconsumervc.com. Thanks again for listening.

One book that inspired Jessica professionally is High Performance Habits by Brenden Burchard.

One book that inspired Rod professionally is Influence: Science and Practice by Robert Cialdini and one book that inspired him personally is Plato’s Allegory of the Cave.

Here are some of the questions that I ask -

1. Jessica - how did you come up with the concept of Lovevery?
2. What was the insight that you learned that inspired you to start Lovevery?
3. When did you know that you wanted Roderick as a co-founder and how did that come about?
4. Talk to me a little bit of the dynamic between you two. What’s the decision making and the delegation process when it comes to business activities? I understand that Jessica is the CEO and Roderick is the President, but what does that actually mean?
5. Let’s talk about the early days.
6. How did you think about design, quality and this translating into your first product, the $140 baby gym?
7. How did you approach the supply chain?
8. Once you built your first product, what was the go-to market strategy?
9. How did you know if the brand building was working if the primary objective is not to sell the baby gym
10. How did you think about growth?
11. Organic vs. Paid
12. What were some of the ways you were able to establish a community around - bothyour brand and products?
13. The fundraise
14. Why did you want to raise money?
15. What was your fundraising strategy?
16. Was it tough to raise with your company located in Idaho?
17. What was the biggest hurdle when fundraising?
18. Any advice for founders that are located in secondary and tertiary markets that are looking to raise money from institutional investors? - have to show up and get smarter through the process
19. Any Advice for founders that don’t have a network that are looking to raise?
20. What’s one thing that you would change when it came to fundraising?
21. Product and pricing strategy. You have a subscription business for the play kits and then you have individual products like the play gym.
22. When you think about building a new product, how do you think about whether it should be part of a subscription vs. separate?
23. How do you think about market expansion? Are you going to stay in the 0-3 age or is the plan to eventually introduce products later on in a child’s development as well?
24. How has COVID changed your operating plans and did you have to pivot any part of your business?
25. I’ve heard investors say that they wouldn’t invest in companies that are located in secondary/tertiary markets because of their worry about talent recruitment as the company scales? How do you think about talent recruitment as you're based in Idaho?
26. What’s one piece of advice that you might have for folks that are fundraising?

I'd like to thank Fernando Gentil for introducing me to today's guest, George Milton, co-founder and CEO of Yellowbird Sauce, Spicy condiments crafted to take you on a fiery–fresh food adventure. This is a conversation all about things hot sauce, which I really enjoyed. George takes us through his journey from playing music gigs to becoming known as the hot sauce guy in Austin Texas and eventually scaling his condiment business nationally.

You can follow George on Twitter at @geemilton. You can also follow your host, Mike, on Twitter @mikegelb. You can also follow for episode announcements @consumervc.

A book the inspired George personally is Siddhartha by Hermann Hesse. A couple books that inspired him professionally are Who Moved My Cheese? By Spencer Johnson and The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell.

In this episode, I ask George -

1. Tell me how you got started making hot sauce?
2. When did you first realize that this could be a business? How did you determine there was a proof in concept?
3. In the early days, when did you have that moment where you wanted to move produce the sauce in commercial kitchens and be able to see it in stores?
4. How did you approach sourcing from the very beginning?
5. How did you think about pricing and brand positioning?
6. How were you able to get into retail? Who do you consider your target audience?
7. Why did you choose to fundraise?
8. What was your fundraising strategy?
9. How has COVID affected Yellowbird?
10. What does the next few years look like for Yellowbird? What are some objectives that you’d like to achieve?
11. What’s one book that inspired you personally and one book that inspired you professionally?
12. What’s one piece of advice that you have for founders?

I'd like to thank Natalie Dillon for introducing me to today's guest Tyler Handley, co-founder and CEO of Inkbox, the tattoos for now. These are temporary tattoos that last for 1-2 weeks and fade as your skin naturally regenerates. We talk about the state of the tattoo market - both temporary and permanent, opportunity he saw at the early stages, how he was able to fundraise and scale. I'll be honest, before our conversation, I knew nothing about the tattoo market before this conversation, so this was certainly an eye opener for me and an insightful conversation.

You can follow Tyler @tyler_handley. You can also follow your host, Mike, on Twitter @mikegelb. You can also follow for episode announcements @consumervc.

One book that inspired Tyler personally is Endurance by Alfred Lansing. One book that inspired Tyler professionally is Good to Great and Built to Last.

On this episode I ask Tyler -

1. What attracted you to entrepreneurship?
2. What led you to founding Inkbox? What problem were you trying to solve?
3. How were you able to measure if this was a real need?
4. In the early stages, how did you think about your target audience?
5. How did you approach building your supply chain in the beginning?
6. What led you to fundraising?
7. How did you approach fundraising?
8. Early on, what were some of the tough questions from investors?
9. Do artists apply to be Inkbox?
10. We spoke before about how you did a rebrand, in the beginning you were trying to be a tech company you didn't have deep brand guidance. Talk to me about that pivot and if you could give an example of trying to be too tech in the beginning.
11. Talk to me about the $2.5 million investment to release a new product. Talk to me about why that was so important.
12. How has COVID affected Inkbox? How has your strategy changed?
13. Talk to me about the future of Inkbox. What are you most excited about?
14. What's one piece of advice that you have for folks looking to start a B2C type business?

We have a few Office Hours / AMAs coming up -> https://theconsumervc.com/events/

Kanyi Maqubela is a Managing Partner at Kindred Ventures. Kindred Ventures is a seed-stage venture capital fund, whose mission is to back visionary and dedicated founders who want to solve the most important problems and vastly improve people’s lives around the world. Some of their investments include Uber, Poshmark, Otis and Blue Bottle Coffee.

Prior to Kindred, Kanyi was a Partner at Collaborative Fund and co-founded Heartbeat Health. He previously ran growth at One Block Off the Grid and was an early employee at Doostang. Kanyi has also served as a Lecturer and Adjunct at New York University Tisch School of the Arts, a curriculum adapted from his time as a student at Stanford University. This was an amazing conversation about Kanyi’s journey both as a founder and investor, his mission and what he looks for from founders. Without further ado, here’s 

A couple of books the inspired Kanyi are The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas Kuhn and Doing Capitalism in the Innovation Economy by William Janeway. A book that inspired him personally is 

I highly recommend following Kanyi on Twitter @km. You can also visit his website Kanyi.me to read his articles and listen to some of his other interviews. You can also follow your host, Mike, on Twitter @mikegelb. You can also follow for episode announcements @consumervc.

Some of the questions I ask Kanyi - 

1. What compelled you to drop out of Stanford, founding Doostang and what initially attracted you to technology and entrepreneurship? What were some of the mistakes you made as an entrepreneur? What compelled you to switch to the other side and become an investor? How has venture capital changed? How has venture capital and domain expertise changed? How do you filter inbound opportunities and your due diligence process?
2. What are qualities that a founder needs to have or milestones a company needs to reach in order for you to be interested? What do you most pay attention to when analyzing an opportunity and what do you pay least attention to? For entrepreneurs building a company in a market that may not exist yet, how should they think about market sizing?
3. CoronaVirus is very top of mind. Has this impacted how you invest? Are you more focused on current portfolio companies rather than new investments?
4. How are you adjusting to new work protocols?
5. Is it harder to establish conviction in founders since you are meeting them remotely rather than in person?
6. Has COVID changed how you think about investing in fully distributed teams or teams that are located in secondary markets?
7. How should founders think of pivoting at the early stages? Can founders pivot too quickly?
8. What’s some advice for founders that live in secondary and tertiary markets? Or maybe simply don’t have a network of VCs?
9. What are some consumer trends that you are focused on?
10. Has CoronaVirus changed how you invest at Kindred?
11. Are you starting to see discrepancies in valuations?
12. Are VCs starting to pull back in order to focus on their current portfolio companies?
13. What’s one thing that you would change when it came to venture capital?
14. What’s one company on your anti-portfolio?
15. What’s your most recent investment and what makes you excited about it?

Our guest today is Catharine Dockery founder of Vice Ventures. Vice Ventures is a seed-stage venture capital fund conquering stigmas and striving towards superior returns by investing in good companies operating in "bad" industries. Investments include early stage startups from non-traditional verticals including, cannabis, alcohol, CBD, e-sports, addiction recovery, sextech, and others. Some of her investments include Recess, Lucy and Player's Lounge. It was great chatting with Catharine about vice categories since we haven't covered too much of those categories, so without further ado, here's Catharine.

You can follow Catharine on Twitter @vice_ventures. You can also follow your host, Mike, on Twitter @mikegelb. You can also follow for episode announcements @consumervc.

One book that inspired her personally is The Elegance of a Hedgehog by Muriel Barbery. One book that inspired her professionally is The Hard Things about Hard Things by Ben Horowitz

In this episode you will learn -

1. What attracted her originally to startups and investing?
2. What compelled her to start Vice Ventures and the opportunity that she saw?
3. Since there is a vice clause in VCs, is it harder to invest as a syndicate?
4. Her diligence process.
5. Founder qualities that she focuses on
6. How she judges if a founder is honest?
7. The future of the nicotene industry.
8. I know another focal point is alcohol and I’ve read a few articles about how Americans are drinking less booze. How she is perceiving that macro industry and what do you look for in founders that are building disruptive alcohol brands?
9. How is she seeing the cannabis market?
10. One of the big topics, especially during these times is eSports, which is another area that you focus in. How is she seeing the eSports market develop?
11. How has COVID affected how she looks at new deals?
12. Is it harder to establish conviction in a founder when she is talking remotely?
13. Is she focusing more on the portfolio vs. new deals?
14. How has she been affected by remote work?
15. Is she more comfortable investing in companies that are fully distributed?
16. What’s one piece of advice for founders that are building vice-type businesses?

This is my first compilation episode. I typically ask every guest what is one piece of advice he/she may have for B2C founders? I've pulled together a few that hopefully can be helpful to folks that are founders or are looking to found. Below are the investors featured and the minute marks on the episode when they share their thoughts if you'd like to jump around.

Kiva Dickinson - 1:45

Gautam Gupta - 4:10

Nicole Quinn - 4:47

Rishi Garg - 5:44

David Wu - 6:28

Charles Hudson - 9:03

Caitlin Strandberg - 10:15

Michael Duda - 11:53

Paul Martino - 15:01

Lee Hower - 16:00

Arie Abecassis - 17:25

Natalie Dillon - 18:28

Our guest today is Nadine Habayeb, CoFounder & CEO Bohana. Bohana is a popped water lily seed snack brand that believes in a free-spirited snacking.

Thank you Madeline Keulen for the introduction!

You can follow Nadine on Twitter @Nadinodxb. You can also follow your host, Mike, on Twitter @mikegelb. You can also follow for episode announcements @consumervc. For all episodes, please visit www.theconsumervc.com

On book that inspired her personally is Sell Your Specialty Food: Market, Distribute, and Profit from Your Kitchen Creation by Stephen Hall. One book that inspired her professionally is Shoe Dog: A Memoir by the Creator of Nike by Phil Knight

In this episode we discuss -

1. What initially attracted Nadine to entrepreneurship and led her starting Bohana?
2. The early days of Bohana. Did she do any market research to see if popped water lily seeds would be something that folks in the U.S. would want to buy? What was the insight? How did she approach the supply chain? Why did she choose to go direct to farmer? Why was investing in the brand so important from the very beginning? How did she think about distribution and price? When did she find product-market fit?
3. Was there a moment when she had the assumption of thinking your target demographic was this specific type of person - interests/age, etc. where when you came to market, it turns out it was actually a different demographic or consumer profile that was loving the product? Once she was able to make a wedge in the market, how did she expand outward from her initial customer base? How did she approach fundraising? What made her consider fundraising?
4. What made her apply to Shark Tank? How was that experience? How has COVID affected her strategy and company? What’s the future of superfood snack food in the United States?What is one piece of advice for early founders?

Our guest today is Daniel Gulati. Daniel has spent the last 6 years at Comcast Ventures, a financially-focused venture capital firm with a 20 year history investing in consumer, enterprise, and frontier technology companies. He joined as Entrepreneur in Residence, and worked his way up the ranks to Principal, Partner and Managing Director at the firm. His seed stage portfolio includes D2C company Away (now worth $1.4B), sports media company The Athletic (reportedly worth over $500M) and digital health company K Health (also worth $500M according to Pitchbook). He recently became Founding Partner of Forecast, an early stage consumer fund.

One book that inspired Daniel personally is Personal History by Kay Graham. One book that inspired him professionally is Growth Fetish by Clive Hamilton.

You can follow Daniel on Twitter and Medium @DanielGulati. You can also follow your host, Mike, on Twitter @mikegelb. You can also follow for episode announcements @consumervc.

On this episode we discuss -

1. What attracted Daniel to startups? What were some of the learnings at FashionStake? How does he think about opportunistic investors vs. thematic and where does he fall on the scale? How does he think about the corporate VC ecosystem and where Comcast Ventures falls on the financial vs. strategic scale? Execution type businesses vs. network type businesses. What does he mean that CAC is the new rent? Attractive vs. mediocre markets.
2. How does he think about winning a category or becoming a leader in a category when he is looking at opportunities? How does he think about first mover advantage? How does domain expertise influence investment decision? How does founders having domain expertise influence his decision making process? Do does he think about investing in first time founders vs. seasoned domain experts differently?
3. Daniel walks us through how he invested in K Health, Away and The Athletic. The effects coronavirus has had on early stage investing. The top mistakes founders make when pitching to VCs. What is one thing that he would change when it came to venture capital? What is a company that is in his anti-porfolio? (Had the opportunity to invest in, didn’t and in retrospect wish did)
4. What is his most recent investment and what makes him excited about it? What’s one piece of advice for founders of B2C founders?

Thank you again Courtney Nelson for introducing me to our guest today, Byron Ling.

Byron is a partner at Canaan. Canaan is an early-stage venture capital firm that invests in visionaries with transformative ideas. Byron invests in consumer companies that are reinventing the way we shop, entertain and educate ourselves. Some of his investments include Roman, Papa, and Bravo Sierra. He was previously an investor at Primary Venture Partners and, prior to the venture world, was an early operator at Gilt Groupe. It was great chatting with Bryon about his diligence process and the effects COVID has on the early stage investing ecosystem, so without further ado, here's Byron.

One book that inspired Byron personally is The Audacity of Hope by Barack Obama. One book that inspired him professionally is Who: The A Method to Hiring by Geoff Smart.

You can follow Byron on both Twitter and Medium @byronling1. You can also follow your host, Mike, on Twitter @mikegelb. You can also follow for episode announcements @consumervc.

In this episode we discuss -

1. What attracted him to early stage startups and consumer? After Gilt Groupe, what compelled him to head into venture capital? What’s his due diligence process at the seed and Series A? What are the milestones that an entrepreneur has to accomplish at each of those stages? What does he focus on the most at each stage - market size, traction, founding team, product-market fit, founder market fit?
2. What are a few qualities in a founder that he looks for? **How does he think about early traction? How can a founder de-risk product market fit? Difference between opportunistic vs thematic investors, where does he sit on the spectrum?
3. How is he thinking about coronavirus as it relates to consumer investing? Is he shifting strategy away/towards companies/verticals? Are you pausing investments in a particular space? Is he concerned about some current portfolio companies' ability to raise? How is he adjusting to new work protocols (remote working, etc) and if so, is that having an impact?
4. What macro consumer trends is he focused on? What is one thing that he would change about venture capital? What’s one piece of advice for founders of consumer startups?

Our guest today is Claire Fauquier a Principal at Highland Capital Partners. Highland Capital Partners is one of the oldest venture capital funds that invests primarily at Series A and focuses on the early growth stage. Some of their investments include Harry's, Rent the Runway, and Clearbanc. In this episode we explore some of the differences and milestones companies typically have at the seed and series A stages. explore the milestones at Series A for technology startups and the purchase behaviors of small-medium businesses.

One book that inspired Claire professionally is Radical Candor by Kim Scott. One book that inspired her personally is The Glass Castle by Jeannette Wells.

You can follow Claire on Twitter @clairefauquier. You can also follow Mike on Twitter @mikegelb. For all episodes, please visit theconsumervc.com. Thanks again for listening.

On this episode we discuss -

1. What attracted her to finance and venture capital? The differences in criteria from seed to series A? Diligence process at series A. What made her make the jump to Series A/B from Seed? What is hard about Series A/B investing? It seems like with the proliferation of seed-specific funds, it’s easier to track companies from earlier on. 
2. What are some mistakes she's made as an investor? Coronavirus is very top of mind. Has this impacted how she invests? Is she more focused on current portfolio companies rather than new investments? How does she think about deals broadly; if she had an investment philosophy, how would she characterize it?
3. In the consumer spectrum, what types of businesses is she focused on? What is her investment criteria for B2C businesses? What does she advise founders to focus on? How does Highland work with consumer businesses once they invest? What is one thing that she would change about Venture Capital?

Full transcript

Mike Gelb 1:08 So let's start out very early back in your career, what initially attracted you to finance and then specifically venture capital?

Claire Fauquier 1:19 Yeah, I kind of want to separate those two things, because I never felt like I was a finance person. And I think that in venture, we're lucky, because we're sort of not finance people. And I've told people that if I must be bucketed, into the finance world, I'm kind of in like, the fun finance. So. So yeah. So I got into investment banking, because I was a finance major, I was drawn to the numbers and the math and thinking about the economic implications of finance, which I felt was really interesting. But of course, when you're, you know, 2021 and deciding on what you want to do after school, there's sort of one career path for finance majors. And that's going into investment banking. So that's where I sort of delineate it and say that I don't ever really thought of myself as a finance person, I sort of just ended up in that career path thinking it would be a good launching pad. And it was I think I learned a lot. I think I learned a lot of what I didn't want as well. And then I moved on from that. What drew me to venture is totally different. For me, it's this real connection with how we're changing the world, how we're thinking about where the world is, in five to 10 years, and interacting with the people that are enabling that I think it's probably one of the absolute best jobs in the world when you feel like you were the dumbest person every day. And I mean that in a humble way. It is fascinating to talk to all these industry experts and people that are devoting their life to something that is really cool and highly relevant and tangible to what we're doing as consumers day to day and how we live our lives. And so it's sort of the story arc of being part of something that's bigger, I think that drew me to VC and less sort of the the aspects that I would attribute to Finance, if I can sort of answer that from a roundabout perspective for folks

Mike Gelb 3:03 that I know that entered in VC and kind of went, you know, worked a couple years in investment banking, similar sentiments I've heard is that you know, really grateful for my investment banking experience, learned a ton, but really happy. It's kind of over wanted to talk a bit about your experience first working in seed, and then how like the milestones change at the series A and Series B rounds, and what you're more focused on at Highland.

Claire Fauquier 3:30 Yeah, that's a good path to go down. And I think there's a lot of meat there. That probably changes at least from my perspective relatively often. But my most recent working theory, I think, is that seed investors are really fantastic when they can be sort of product oriented when they have a view on the entrepreneurial journey. And that is not to be taken lightly. I think that that skill set is incredibly valuable, and I'm incredibly envious of it having only spent a tiny, tiny portion of my career on the operating side, I think that once we get later and later, there's sort of this emphasis on evaluating business models and thinking about the sort of story arc and stage progression of a company rather than just being so focused on product. And so, for me, I felt like I almost didn't have the stomach for being a professional seed investor. And my investment banking background, as good as it was, I think, also made me much more apt to poke holes into things. And so that was sort of, you know, a bit of my mindset coming into things. And series A is fantastic for me, because the best part of this job in my perspective is working with founders, as I mentioned, and I think that series A you still get to spend all that great time working operationally with founders on some of the biggest challenges that they'll be facing going forward. But there's a little bit more of the business model to pull apart and to analyze and so it's sort of this perfect marriage of my background. Having said all that, Do some angel investing and I get to sort of keep my feet wet in that arena to really make bets on people that I think are exceptional. And and I get to sort of scratch that itch, which is a really nice little marriage, sort of an added side bonus that I love about series A that I hadn't fully wrapped my mind around is that just the way the portfolio construction work, seed investors are writing many, many, many more checks, right? at origin we wrote, you know, for per person, we wrote probably three to five more times the amount of checks that that we do now, or that I do now at series A and B. And so just based on that portfolio construction, you naturally can't be as close with all of your portfolio companies throughout the cycle of the company. And so there's this natural progression of sort of rolling off the board and and regular conversation with your companies that probably Series B or C or something like that. Whereas that a because you're you're making sort of more concentrated investments. You stay with that company up until exit and then That's really special to me, because I like creating that really deep bond with founders, I was felt it was kind of sad when the natural progression happened. And the company sort of graduated on to Series B, and C, and things just got so busy that all of a sudden our check ins went from, you know, every week to every two weeks, every month, two every quarter or something like that. So I like really being in the trenches with people. I think that's fun,

Mike Gelb 6:23 great point that you're saying about seeing investing in series A and that you don't write as many checks per year? Do you feel that at the series a stage you maybe have to become more specialized in terms of the actual industries itself, knowing those particular maybe business models or metrics?

Claire Fauquier 6:40 Yeah, that's a really good question and something that I struggle with, and I think that every VC probably thinks that pretty regularly. Yeah, I would imagine. I think there's pros and cons to specialization. I think the general thread though that you're getting at is that you need to be much more focused and much more thoughtful with your deal sourcing, I Rather than seed seed is very difficult in my mind to be thematic or to be doing any meaningful outbound sourcing, just because it is. So based on network and based on happenstance and who you might meet who leads you to somebody else. Versus at A and B, you can be a bit thematic, because you have generally companies that have been funded in previous rounds. So you get to sort of watch them as they progress up to your stage. And you can be a little bit picky in sort of who you reach out to and sort of go hunting, if that makes sense.

Mike Gelb 7:35 No, it does. It does. I wanted to also talk about, you know, maybe the current landscape at the series A and B. stages, seems like there's now this proliferation and has been for the past few years, how there's so much, you know, seed and seed specific funds. Just how are you thinking about series A and Series B as a as a general landscape.

Claire Fauquier 7:58 It's funny, you mentioned that in a minute. Hearing this correctly, your perception is that there's more seed funds than there are a and b fund. Right? Yes, yes. Yeah, I see it the opposite. Actually, I think there's very few dedicated seed funds versus series A and B funds. And I think on sheer number, there's a lot of early stage funds, because there's a lot of great emerging managers who are focused on earlier stage because they have smaller checks to write. But in terms of for the big behemoth funds, I think series A and B is much more of an established category. So it's interesting that you see it from a different perspective in my mind, but I when I think of funds that are purely see their institutional funds, you know, maybe on fund two or three, that are willing to lead rounds and really sit on the board and sort of play that institutional seed role, I don't think have a ton of fun. And I think origin is one of them, which sort of made us stood out which was exciting to really be a seed exclusive fund. But then I think once we get to series A and beyond, there's a lot of multi Stage funds, and there's much more capital floating around at the series A and B stage, which, in my opinion, at least makes it more competitive to a certain degree. Because there's less of a chance of finding a company that no one else has talked to.

Mike Gelb 9:15 Wow, it's really interesting how you're seeing it. This is probably where we should have started at the very beginning. But how do you think about series? A

Claire Fauquier 9:23 good question. I think the benchmarks and KPIs and all that stuff kind of fluctuate as time goes on. And as we, you know, move through economic cycles and stuff like that. But I think of series A and the second sort of true institutional round, they'll say so at origin, we thought about seed as the first institutional round. And so the company had maybe raised some Angel rounds or friends and family rounds or something like that. And this was the first time that they were really thinking about the, you know, transformation of the company into sort of a business where they're putting in place governance and a board and things like that. And, and pre the seed round, they were probably testing products had an MVP had early sales had some pilots in place or early sales with consumers etc seed a in my view was always to test out a couple hypotheses that were narrowing and narrowing in terms of true product market fit. And then at a, I think about it as sort of real product market fit where a especially consumer company has sort of the operating playbook in their minds where they know how to acquire customers with relative certainty. So the band of customer acquisition costs, for instance, starts to narrow and they have relative certainty that if they apply, you know, X amount of dollars to marketing, they'll get X amount of dollars in revenue. And they have a relatively good example of what their ideal customer looks like their supply chain, all those various things. And so for me, that really sort of indicates without thinking about, you know, the KPIs that can move, it's sort of that that true product market fit that we know the company He is ready to take that much larger round of capital and apply it to the business and have some idea of what the output then will be. That makes sense. So it's like a more of a stabilized CAC, I've talked to other investors too, and they say, like, at the series A, that's really when a company should really have product market fit. Yeah, I would agree with that. I don't think it means necessarily that the company has got everything figured out. You know, I think I think there's a lot of caveats that we and founders could throw on things that things can change quickly. And we all know that especially right now, right, like a lot of safer industries from an investment perspective have been thrown on their head during the COVID environment, but series A doesn't mean necessarily that the company is you know, off to the races, there's going to be operational challenges and I think a good investor can help with a lot of that stuff. But I think it does mean that once a company's raising series A they're not spending expensive venture dollars figuring out product market fit and figuring out who best to sell their product to this have an idea. Now it's time to really execute and pour that fuel on the fire. I wanted

Mike Gelb 12:05 to also talk about your like transition from a seed to a series A like what was maybe the toughest thing from changing from, you know, from origin seed investing to series, a investing,

Claire Fauquier 12:17 very quick kind of cop out answer is that the hardest part is, is giving up the relationships you have with your existing companies and relinquishing board duties. And so I still spend a lot of time with my portfolio companies from origin because it just simply