Convo By Design®

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with an episode about two sides of this industry that are rarely talked about. Two voices you rarely hear from, except here, of course. These two amazing individuals met me at Design Hardware for our Summer Day of Design event. Something important about the following episode right from the start, and this is not exclusive to the business of design. We’re talking about building teams and promoting your talent. These concepts are universally important and often neglected. But not here, not today.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

I have a tendency to repeat stories on occasion. No really, it’s true. And, if you have been listening to the show for any amount of time, you have probably picked up on this. I lean in on the things that have made an impact on me and how those things have affected my life and work. So, I tell you now, as I have told you before, I am not interested in doing a show about the business of design. Over the past 8 or 9 years, the business of design has gotten far more competitive. Partly due to the influx of new designers that enter the industry after every societal meltdown, be it a financial crisis like 08/09 or COVID. The same thing used to happen in my broadcast days. In that case, so many new people would be hired only to be fired at the end of each year and those people would go off and start their own advertising agency. In the design business, Many designers who don’t really make it as designers have found a niche business consulting designers on how to run their design businesses. I cannot tell you how many emails I receive from design business consultants who want to come on the show and there is a reason you don’t hear them on the show. I think if you want to learn something, it shouldn’t be from someone who couldn’t do it themselves but from someone who has exceeded in that particular area. Before I get angry emails, I’m not suggesting they are all bad or unhelpful, some are, I’m sure. But when I share the stories behind individuals with you, there is a reason for that.  Today, you are going to hear from Brian Pinkett, Principle Architect with Landry Design Group and Erik Perez, Founder and Principle of Hello PR. I have known both of these men for many years and I have seen them in action and for those reasons I am thrilled to share this episode with you. 

This episode was recorded live from Design Hardware in Los Angeles, but you know this because they are also long time sponsor partners of Convo By Design. I host a Day of Design for each season and this was from our July, summer session. These sessions are full days of recordings, panel conversations and product showcases designed specifically for busy designers to elevate their game through exposure, networking and education.

First up, you are going to hear from Brian Pinkett about training, teaching and mentoring talent and how to build a culture. Next, you will hear from Erik Perez about getting the most exposure for the work you do and how to leverage that into new business. And you’ll hear everything, right after this.

Thank you, Brian and Erik, love what you do and I’m thankful for your friendship and collaboration. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is the September 2024 installment of the Convo By Design Icon Registry featuring another absolutely incredible creative who appeared on the show not once, but I think this gentleman has been on the show 4 times over the past 11 years in every way possible. He has been on a panel, featured in an individual interview, been part of The Showroom series. He’s incredible. This months inductee is an amazing talent a gentleman and a friend. Timothy Corrigan.

I met Tim for the first time, I believe it was 2017. I went to his Los Angeles offices and we spoke about so many things and that is the episode I wanted to share with you today as we induct Tim into the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Somethings you should know about Tim. First, he is one heck of a person. He is one of those people you feel like you’ve known your whole life from the moment you meet him. Second, he already had a stellar career before design in the advertising industry. He led international operations for Saatchi & Saatchi’s Bates Worldwide prior to opening his eponymous design firm in 1998. For reference, Bates Worldwide, in 1998, had billings in excess of $7.7B and operations in 70+ countries with 156+ offices. 

One of the interesting things Tim and I talked about was the Bates Worldwide concept of the USP. Unique Selling Proposition. A concept you see offered everywhere but rarely understood. The idea is that wherever there is competition, one must find the differentiator, the thing that makes them stand out. Something that none else offers. That idea that competitively sets you apart. That others in the field don’t offer. There is far more to the concept but in a world where every designer is an “award winning” designer, Tim allows the work to override the accolades. The irony is not lost on me. To be talking about how it’s not about the accolades, while bestowing accolades, the point is that Ti has always understood his USP, he launched his firm knowing what he wanted, while perhaps not sure how he was going to do it, stayed true to himself and the work and accolades followed. Tim is strong willed, sure of his design ideas and doesn’t seem to have anything to prove. Another reason why I am so fond of Tim Corrigan and so happy to install him as this months inductee to the CXD Icon Registry.

Thank you, Tim for taking the time and the willingness to share your story. Congratulations on your addition to the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Thank you for listening and subscribing to the show. Thank you to my partner sponsors Design Hardware, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Pacific Sales. these are amazing partners all, they support the trade and I love sharing these amazing resources with you. Thanks again for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. – CXD

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a conversation from the past but no less relevant today and that is why I love producing the main stage at the WestEdge Design Fair. WestEdge, it’s coming up this November 14th through the 16th in Santa Monica at the Barker Hangar. This show is very special to me. I have been working with principles Megan and Troy, and co-founder Troy for years. This is a special show, my favorite show in California and that is saying something. It’s a labor of love and its with gratitude and appreciation to Megan and Troy that I get to do this every year.

 Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

I wanted to share some past programs with you and it seemed like a good time as we lean in on this years show. One of the things that I have always loved about WestEdge is how it represents a celebration of design and a yearning to help elevate the industry in the future. For me, that desire to elevate has taken the form of freedom to curate panels, interviews and concepts that speak to the ever-changing and evolving nature of the design and architecture space. Troy and Megan have always supported my ideas and encouraged me to pursue the unique, undiscussed conversations in the same way I have always tried to do for you on the show.

For the past 2-3 years now, you have been hearing a lot of conversations about sustainability in design. The importance of sustainable consciousness in the industry. You have also been hearing a great deal about the story behind materiality and product. A true desire for narration in the design and materials that comprise it. It’s important. And I thought I would share our conversation discussing these very issues, recorded live, at WestEdge… In 2018.

Before we get to this, some thoughts on sustainable design and panel programming over time. The panel program you are about to hear was recorded in 2018. While not many were talking about this subject, we were and you are going to notice how far we have come since 2018 with regard to sustainable design practices. In large part due to conversations like this one. This is one of the reasons why the SoCal design community and beyond love this event so much. You are going to hear it here, first. The ideas and concepts that are shaping our industry now and well into the future. This year, we have an extraordinary slate of talks featuring amazing talent scheduled for the show. Find out more at WestEdge Design Fair dot com.

But first, It’s such a joy to look back at these and share them again.  Sustainable and Timeless Design featuring; Whitney Tinsley, Bret Englander of Cerno Group and Catherine Richardson of Libeco Linen. This program was moderated by Erika Heet of Interiors Magazine.

We’ll get to it, right after this.

TS

WE1

TT/ PS

WE2

DH

Thank you, Erika, Catherine, Bret, Whitney. Thank you, Megan and Troy from WestEdge. I enjoyed our conversations so much. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a conversation about potential. Potential is defined as having the capacity to become something in the future. Think about that. I’ll give you six seconds.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Potential, the most optimistic word in the human language next to the word optimism. Potential is only an idea until its activated. Simon Hamui is a Mexico City based design studio founded by Hamui and works in natural materials like wood, stone, upholstery and metal for truly unique spaces. Potential in this instance refers to both the artisan and his team in addition to the materials in which they work. Turning a piece of raw wood into a piece of artisan cabinetry on a yacht, earthen pulled stone into a stunning dining room floor. One of a kind works for one of a kind spaces by a one of a kind artisan and studio. I also asked Simon about his musical tastes, those responses. The top 10 he’s loving right now; Gustav Mahler, Paul Simon, Claude Debussey, Melody Gardot, Johann Sebastian Bach, Genesis (early years), Milton Nacimiento, Sergei Profofiev, Pat Metheny and Juan Manuel Serrat. Love these! This is what we’re discussing today with Simon Hamui. We’ll be right back.

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a detailed conversation about why it is just so hard to build in California. It’s important to say in advance with listeners all over the world that picking California is the canary in the coal-mine. Which is to say that it is an early indicator of potential issues elsewhere because I think it is fair to say that California tries things first, as a rule.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

– Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

It’s somewhat comforting to know that the Golden State remains a place where new ideas are tested. Unless you happen to be one of the brave individuals who is testing those boundaries. My friend Joan Barton is the founder of Dirty Girl Construction and SheSpoke Studio, a place for creative women to tell their stories. So today, this a Convo By Design takeover featuring Joan and an amazing group of women general contractors telling their war stories about building in Los Angeles in particular and California in general. And if you are in New York, Miami, Atlanta, Texas, well, maybe not Texas, but everywhere else, the concepts are on their way to your town soon so give this a listen. Thank you Joan for lading this amazing talk with some extraordinary GC’s, all women and some of the best in the business including; Shannon Sheehan, Laura Howley, Catherine Springer, and Catie Casazza. This was recorded live during the winter 2024 Day of Design event at Design Hardware  and you are going to hear all about it.

My friend and the moderator of the following conversation is Joan Barton of Dirty Girl Construction. Not only is Joan a multi-hyphenate creative. She a GC, musician, creative thinker, futurist, but she is also a terrific person. Wonderful and talented people are often surrounded by other wonderful and talented people, birds of a feather… as the saying goes.  I’m not going to get into introductions , I’m going to let Joan do that part, but here’s what II will say about the following episode of the show. This is an important conversation because many of the reasons it is so challenging to build in California are due to the popularity of the state. This popularity and resulting overcrowding combined with a movement toward self-preservation combine with over zealous governance and natural disasters have led to bloated yet dysfunctional metropolitan management and over-regulation combined with material shortages. It’s a lot and it takes someone very special to articulate it and get to the bottom of it and you’re going to hear from her, them actually, right after this.

Thank you, Joan, Catie, Shannon, and Lauren for taking the time to share your thoughts. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design. But you know that and I am thankful that you are listening to the show and joining me on this little journey of ours. And, it is a journey. I was thinking about you this week. If you are listening to the show, you are a designer, architect, manufacturer, in the industry or a design enthusiast and you take time out of your day to listen to the show. I take that as a challenge to provide you with the opportunity to hear from amazing creatives, incredible brand partners and others in this industry all the while in pursuit of sublime design wherever we can find it.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

We are in a fairly weird time right now, I know you feel it the same way I do. We’re all feeling the strange vibes from the economy, politics, social media. But home is refuge. Designers and architects make that happen. In an effort to further drill down on this idea, I host small format events presented and hosted by Pacific Sales and Monogram, the official appliance partners of Convo By Design. I have been working with Pacific Sales in one way or another since the podcast started in 2013. And by Pacific Sales standards, that would make me the rookie amongst their staff. I met up with my friend Shaun Ayala at KBIS this year and he introduced me to the Pacific Sales team that made the journey to Las Vegas. Everyone I met had been with Pacific Sales between 15 and 25 years. These days, when companies open and close or decide to reimagine themselves every year or so, Pacific Sales has been there for their clients and design partners for over 60 years and backed by Best Buy. This is not a commercial, they sponsor the show, absolutely and I am really proud of that. And they do great work, like hosting the event from which the following conversation was recorded. 

The Complete Kitchen. What does that mean? The kitchen has changed in dramatic ways and continues to evolve in previously unimaginable ways. The primary kitchen, dirty or working kitchen, outdoor kitchen, butler’s pantry, wine bar, wet bar, coffee bar… ensuite kitchenette, bathroom beverage center, sport court kitchenette. The idea of kitchen has changed and is limited only by imagination… And budget. We’re going to talk about all of this. Here is who joined me at the Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home showroom in Irvine, California:

Lisa McDennon

Terri Brein

Susan Thiel

Joseph DeCasparis

Jess Jones

Paul Fernandez

Thank you,Michelle, Terri, Jess, Susan, Paul and Joe. Thank you Verzine, Cesar and Shaun with Pacific Sales for hosting the amazing experience. I enjoyed our conversation and cannot wait to see what you do next. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is the August 2024 installment of the Convo By Design Icon Registry featuring another absolutely incredible creative who appeared on the show. This months inductee is an amazing talent, Jamie Bush.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Jamie and I met at his LA offices quite some time ago, 2018 I think. What struck me most about Jamie then as it does now is the frame of reference he draws against. Growing up on a dairy farm in upstate New York with family members in the creative arts as well. Designers, photographers. Jamie studied architecture in New Orleans, moves out to LA and founds his design company in 2002. This experience of his has given him opposing viewpoints from which to draw his design concepts. Jamie is a deep thinker and and extraordinary. And he doesn’t shy away from giving back. That’s what makes Jamie Bush, a design icon.

Thank you, Jamie for taking the time and the willingness to share your story. Congratulations on your addition to the Convo By Design Icon Registry. Thank you for listening and subscribing to the show. Thank you to my partner sponsors Design Hardware, ThermaSol, TimberTech, Monogram and Pacific Sales. these are amazing partners all, they support the trade and I love sharing these amazing resources with you. Thanks again for listening, until next week, be well and take today first. – CXD

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a group of exceptional designers from our Day of Design gathering in Los Angeles in May 2024.

I think designers and architects provide a service that simply cannot be measured in terms of dollars and cents. Especially in an era of fast content, social media perspective that creates a social dysmorphia. We have all become so inextricably tied to the internet and social media that it is truly difficult to differentiate reality form make believe. The following conversations feature designers who met me at Design Hardware in LA for a day of creative thinking and sharing of dynamic design ideas that are shaping the way we design in 2024. 

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

I have found that f you gather creative types and provide the platform for them to showcase their individual approach to the work, some universal concepts begin to form and you have the opportunity to see what really makes these people special. The reason skilled designers can do what they do is because they possess the ability to silence the noise and focus in on true needs and desires of their clients. This is how they do it.

Letecia Ellis Haywood

Alina Wolhardt

Susie Novak

Mary Patton

Lauren Martin Moro

So much fun, right? Thank you, Lauren, Amy, Letecia, Alina, Mary, Susie. It was not my intent, but this turned out to be an amazing showcase of women designers who are setting the tone for the next phase of our design renaissance! Thank you for taking the time to share your story. I enjoyed our conversation and cannot wait to see what you do next. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a fresh take on design from the ATL, Atlanta, Georgia. This is a city making a huge impact on design due in large part to designers like Gabriela Eisenhart, founder of Silo Studios.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

 – Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

Gabriela shared her background in video production and its influence on her approach to her current work. Gabriela confirmed that her strong visual narrative in her work stems from her intuitive understanding of how a space should make people feel and her background in production. We also discussed the intricacies of the design process, emphasizing the importance of problem-solving and flexibility. Gabriela highlighted the delicate balance between respecting the architecture of a space and the lifestyle of their clients, while also creating functional and durable designs. Gabriela shared the importance of visual storytelling in her work and the need to maintain a balance between imagination and attention to detail in their presentations and designs. 

Visual storytelling and the narrative surrounding the lives and interests of the clients themselves is what remains one of the greatest opportunities in the design industry. The storytelling within the work itself is what makes design so impactful on those who reside in the spaces. For years, i have been speaking with set decorators on some of the most impactful TV and film production and a constant through-line within those conversations is the importance of storytelling derived from the words on a script and a set decorators ability to transfer the essence of a character into the design of the set to adequately reflect who that character is and why they are that way. This is very much the same in interior design except instead of taking words from a page, insightful designers listen to the clients with whom they’re speaking to get to the true essences of who they are and to craft  a design concept around that client and their friends, family, work, hobbies fur-babies. 

Some of the best and most insightful creatives with whom I have spoken all share this ability to ask insightful questions, really listen to the responses and then read between the lines to capture the characters of their clients. Then to intuitively, instinctively craft spaces that further the narrative to the point where, and I have experienced this firsthand, a client will walk into a completed space and feel as though they have either been there before or, more commonly, feel a sense of comfort as if the space was created specifically for them. Because it was. This is connectivity at a deeper level. 

These are topics with a huge impact on design today. I think in large part because we are talking about the impactful design emanating from a city like Atlanta and not just projects in the usual locales like New York, LA and Miami. Atlanta is a hotbed for groundbreaking design, because of designers like Gabriela and firms like Silo Studios. And you are going to hear from Gabriela, right after this.

Thank you Gabriela. Thank you for taking the time to share your story. I enjoyed our conversation and cannot wait to see what you do next. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design

I’m Josh Cooperman and this is Convo By Design with a conversation about architecture. Modern architecture, large and small but all spectacular with architect Scott Specht of Specht Novak Architects.

Designer Resources

Pacific Sales Kitchen and Home. Where excellence meets expertise.

Monogram – It’s the details that define Monogram

ThermaSol – Redefining the modern shower experience. Without steam, it’s just a bathroom.

Design Hardware – A stunning and vast collection of jewelry for the home!

– Where service meets excellence

TimberTech – Real wood beauty without the upkeep

On a recent city visit to Kansas City, I bought a book in a used bookstore. The book is called The Paris Architect. Published in 2013 by Charles Balfoure. It takes place in 1942 Paris and revolves around an architect and creative architecture used to save Jews from the Nazis. Of course there is more to it and perhaps I will give it the full Booklook treatment at some point. That is for another day, but it got me thinking about the Bauhaus, modern architecture in all its  wonderful forms from France’s Art Deco, German Bauhaus and Brutalism through concrete forms. It also got me thinking about creative ways architecture can and is used to make life better for those who inhabit, live, work, love in these spaces. I had a conversation with Scott Specht of Specht Novak Architects and we discuss all of this. Specht’s work and that of his firm is exceptional examples of Modern Architecture at its absolute best. Per usual, we walk through Scott’s projects so check the show notes for a link to their project page and follow along. Everything from the sublime Weston Residence in Connecticut to the fun and funky Carpenter Hotel in Austin. From the Austin Cliffside Residence which is an absolute specimen in creative use of space to the experimental, Next American House. You are going to enjoy the ride. I guarantee it. And you are going to hear all about it, right after this.  

Thank you, Scott. Amazing. I enjoyed our conversation and cannot wait to see the Next American Home in person. Thank you to my partner sponsors, ThermaSol, Pacific Sales, TimberTech, Monogram and Design Hardware. These partners are amazing companies all who have made a concerted effort to support the design community through education, incentives, events, media and exposure, not to mention a collection of extraordinary products and service to match. Check the show notes for links to each of them so you can see first hand how they can make your design business thrive and your projects exceed expectations. Thank you for listening, downloading, subscribing and sharing the show with your friends and colleagues. Thank you for your emails, show and guest suggestions. Please keep them coming, convobydesign at Outlook dot com and on Instagram @ConvoXdesign, with an “x”.  Until the next episode, be well and take today first. -Convo By Design