On The Gist, forget Stormy Daniels. The Kushners' massive loan deals are where the real dirt is at.

In the interview, the world's growing complexity can be measured in dusty cables, useless features, and lines of code. Chris Clearfield and András Tilcsik talk about the problems that snowball when even the smallest thing goes wrong. Clearfield and Tilcsik are the authors of Meltdown: Why Our Systems Fail and What We Can Do About It.

In the Spiel, any census that asks people about their citizenship status will be pricey and inaccurate.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.