DEI After 5 with Sacha

It’s clear people are looking for ways to protect their peace. And if the comments, DMs, and emails are any indication, they’re also looking for permission to do so.

That’s exactly why this conversation with Katrina Jones on DEI After 5 hit such a nerve. It’s one of our most-watched episodes, and it makes sense—this is the stuff so many of us have been trying to name. That quiet unraveling you feel when you’re committed to the work, but the workplace doesn’t care. That guilt for wanting to step back when the weight of everything is on your shoulders. That slow erosion of your well-being in places that claim to value you but rarely show it.

Katrina and I talked candidly about the emotional toll of toxic work environments—especially for those of us doing work that is rooted in justice, inclusion, or lived experience. There’s a unique pain that comes with trying to create change in systems that don’t want to be changed.

But here’s what we explored that I think we all need to hear:

👉🏾 Detachment isn’t indifference.It’s not about giving up. It’s about reclaiming your energy. Katrina shared how she learned this through Al-Anon, where detachment is a practice of caring without carrying. That lesson applies to so many of us—especially those who’ve been conditioned to believe that our worth is tied to how much we endure.

👉🏾 Boundaries are a gift to yourself.We talked about how hard it can be to stay connected to a toxic space—even after you've technically left. Colleagues texting you with drama. Group chats that keep you emotionally tethered to that old team. Staying in those loops can reopen wounds that you’re trying to heal. Sometimes, the most radical thing you can do is say: No more. That’s not cold—it’s clarity.

👉🏾 You are not the vessel for someone else’s journey.This one’s personal for me. As a coach and consultant, I’ve had to learn (sometimes the hard way) that I can’t want transformation more than the people I’m working with. I can offer tools. I can hold space. But I cannot carry people to their breakthrough. That’s not mine to hold. And once I accepted that? Whew. Freedom.

So what does detachment and boundary-setting actually look like in practice?

Here are a few takeaways from the episode:

* Recognize your triggers. Pay attention to the situations, people, or conversations that drain you.

* Name your boundaries—and honor them. It’s not just about saying what you won’t tolerate. It’s about practicing it, even when it’s hard.

* Redirect energy. Not every conversation deserves your engagement. Sometimes the best move is to shift the subject or step away entirely.

* Make space for joy and recovery. Whether it’s rest, creativity, or connection—whatever fuels you needs to be prioritized, not postponed.

* Remember, you are not the system. Just because you see what’s broken doesn’t mean it’s yours to fix.

There’s power in choosing you. There’s freedom in saying, I can care deeply and still protect my peace.

If you’ve been wrestling with how to stay whole in environments that chip away at your spirit, I hope this episode reminds you that you’re not alone—and that you don’t have to keep sacrificing yourself to be “the strong one.”

Catch the full episode right here on Substack or where you listen to your favorite podcasts.

Let me know—what boundaries are you setting this season to protect your peace?

When most people think about workplace safety, they imagine hard hats, ergonomic chairs, or maybe active shooter drills. What rarely comes up—but absolutely should—is how people feel at work. And that’s where psychosocial hazards come in.

These aren’t just buzzwords or boxes to check. Psychosocial hazards are the silent threats that show up in how power is distributed, how people are treated, and what’s tolerated in the day-to-day culture of an organization. And yet, too often, they go unacknowledged—until someone breaks down, quits, or worse.

Dr. I David Daniels joined me on DEI After 5 to dig into this topic, and what he shared should have every workplace paying attention.

What Are Psychosocial Hazards, Really?

Psychosocial hazards are the workplace conditions that can mess with your mental and emotional well-being. Things like:

* Bullying or harassment (yep, still happening in 2025)

* Excessive workload and unrealistic expectations

* Micromanagement and lack of control over your own work

* Isolation, exclusion, or lack of social support

* Microaggressions (subtle, but cumulative and harmful)

* Discrimination—overt or covert

These aren't just "bad vibes." These are real risk factors that impact how people think, engage, and show up at work. And if we’re being honest, they’re often written off as personal problems or interpersonal drama instead of being seen as organizational liabilities.

Microaggressions: The “Small” Thing That Adds Up Fast

Let’s talk about microaggressions—those quick jabs people might not even realize they’re throwing. A joke about someone’s name. A comment about someone’s tone. A backhanded compliment about someone’s hair or clothes. These small moments are heavy for the person on the receiving end, especially when they pile up over time.

If people are spending energy trying to decode whether they’re safe in a meeting or if it’s “worth it” to speak up, that’s not a thriving culture. That’s a hazard.

Toxic Workplaces Don’t Just Happen. They’re Built.

A toxic work environment is often the result of unchecked psychosocial hazards. Maybe it's a culture of fear. Maybe it’s leadership looking the other way when inappropriate behavior happens. Maybe it's the team dynamic that subtly punishes people for being “too different” or “too direct.”

Whatever the case, the result is the same: employees disengage, mental health declines, and performance suffers. Burnout isn’t always about doing too much—it’s often about being in an environment that takes too much out of you, with too little support in return.

So, What Can Organizations Actually Do?

Addressing psychosocial hazards takes more than a wellness webinar or a ping pong table in the break room. Here’s where to start:

* Take a real look at the culture. What’s being allowed? What’s being ignored?

* Train leaders to recognize and respond to harmful behavior. Silence is complicity.

* Reinforce policies with action—not just paperwork. If people don’t trust the system, it doesn’t work.

* Create real feedback channels. And act on what you hear.

* Prioritize psychological safety. Not just for show—but because it matters.

Leadership Sets the Tone

This isn’t just an HR issue—it’s a leadership responsibility. Leaders shape culture, whether intentionally or not. If they’re not actively creating safety, then they might be passively reinforcing harm. Listening, transparency, and accountability are all leadership behaviors that reduce psychosocial hazards. It's time we stop thinking of those things as "soft skills" and start calling them what they are: critical safety tools.

If your team is struggling, your retention is dipping, or people are showing signs of burnout—don’t just look at the workload. Look at the environment. Psychosocial hazards may be the root cause.

If you're ready to dig into what's really going on in your workplace and want support assessing and addressing psychosocial hazards, schedule a call with our team. We’ll help you build a culture that’s not just productive—but safe, sustainable, and truly inclusive.

We talk a lot about burnout, disconnection, and disengagement at work—but we don’t talk enough about how community can be the antidote.

In this episode of DEI After 5, I share some reflections on how easy it is—especially for middle managers—to feel like you're carrying the load alone. You're expected to show up for everyone else, but who’s holding space for you? That’s where community comes in. And I’m not just talking about team bonding or a happy hour after work. I’m talking about the people who see you. The people who remind you that you’re not crazy. The ones who tell you the truth, even when it’s hard—and love you through it.

Community isn’t just one thing. It might be your team, your friend group, your family, your group chat, or even your sorority sisters. Each circle gives us something different—sometimes it’s laughter, sometimes it’s accountability, and sometimes it’s the silence we need to breathe. But here’s the catch: we have to nurture it. Community doesn’t just happen. We have to choose to show up and be honest, even when it’s uncomfortable.

In one of my recent trainings, folks from different departments came together for the first time—and they were shocked to realize how much they had in common. That moment reminded me how often we operate in silos, even within the same organization. We’re so focused on the work that we forget to connect as people. But when we make time for real conversations, we start to see that we’re not alone. And that changes everything.

So I’ll ask you what I asked the group:Who’s in your corner right now?Where do you feel safe enough to be real?And what communities have you maybe drifted away from, that it might be time to revisit?

This is about survival. Especially in times like these, we need spaces that refill our cup. And when we tend to those spaces, we become better teammates, better leaders, and better humans.

We don't have to do this alone.Let’s stop pretending we do.

In this re-release of my conversation with Amy Waninger, we’re revisiting a topic that’s even more urgent today than when we first recorded it: the vital role middle managers play in building inclusive, psychologically safe workplaces—and the real cost when they’re left out of the conversation.

The Reality Behind the Rhetoric

It’s easy to talk about inclusion at the top. Executive teams set strategic priorities, launch statements, and announce new initiatives. But the real test of whether those values translate into everyday action? That falls to middle managers.

They’re the ones leading the one-on-ones, navigating interpersonal tensions, and trying to keep teams engaged—all while fielding pressure from above and burnout from within. And when they aren’t equipped or supported to lead inclusively, the gap between what’s said and what’s done starts to widen.

The Disconnect We’re Not Talking About

As Amy and I discussed, the DEI goals that sound good in the boardroom often miss the mark on the ground. Middle managers are expected to deliver results, keep their teams motivated, and somehow embody organizational values—without a clear roadmap or the breathing room to figure it out. No wonder so many feel overwhelmed, unclear, or caught in the middle.

And now, with formal DEI programs under scrutiny or disappearing entirely, many organizations are quietly shifting the burden of inclusion to people who are already stretched thin. That’s not a strategy. It’s a setup.

Empowerment ≠ Expectations Without Support

If we want DEI—or more broadly, inclusion, safety, and belonging—to take root, we have to stop treating middle managers like afterthoughts. Instead, we need to empower them with:

* Practical, action-focused training that helps them build inclusive habits into how they lead—not just what they know.

* Clear expectations and aligned incentives so inclusion isn't treated as "extra" work.

* Ongoing coaching and peer learning to normalize the messiness of leading people through real-life challenges.

* Resources and tools that take the guesswork out of hard conversations.

* Recognition that reinforces that people leadership is culture work—and it matters.

This isn’t about turning middle managers into DEI experts. It’s about helping them become the kind of leaders people trust. That’s what psychological safety looks like in practice.

What This Means for the Work Ahead

The middle manager burnout I’ve been speaking about lately? It’s tied directly to this gap. We keep asking managers to do more without giving them the conditions to do it well. If we want accountability, we need alignment. If we want impact, we need investment. And if we want culture change, we need to start with the people holding the line.

Amy’s insights remain incredibly relevant—and if anything, the stakes have gotten higher. Let’s not keep putting the weight of inclusion on the shoulders of people we aren’t willing to support.

✨ Want to dig deeper into this conversation and learn how to support your middle managers?

Let’s be real—what’s happening in the world doesn’t stop at the office door. We don’t get to hang our worries on a hook next to our coats and step into a perfectly insulated work bubble. And yet, too often, that’s exactly what workplaces expect us to do.

In this week’s episode of DEI After 5, I’m talking about the impact of external events—whether they’re global, national, or deeply personal—and how they show up in our work lives. Because they do show up. In our energy levels. In how we communicate. In the tension that’s just under the surface of our meetings. In our ability to lead, manage, or just make it through the day.

If we’ve learned anything over the last few years—from the pandemic to political shifts to ongoing violence and injustice—it’s that there is no clean line separating our professional and personal lives. And pretending that line exists only makes things worse.

Workplaces that recognize this reality—and respond with empathy, flexibility, and support—are the ones that build trust and loyalty. The ones that ignore it? They risk burnout, disengagement, and quiet quitting long before anyone sends in a resignation email.

DEI After 5 is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

Here’s what I break down in the episode:

Leaders, Check In—And Mean It

Asking “how are you?” can’t just be a formality. It has to be an invitation. One that people trust won’t be used against them later. Leaders don’t have to solve everything—but they do need to create space for honesty and support.

Stop Romanticizing the Grind

Taking a break isn’t weakness. It's wisdom. We all need time to reset, especially when the world feels heavy. Encourage your team—and yourself—to slow down when needed. A rested team is a resilient team.

Don’t Wait for the Ask

Sometimes the people who are struggling the most won’t say a word. That’s why it's so important to proactively share resources, support systems, and flexible options. Don’t make care conditional on a formal request.

Inclusion Is More Than a Policy

It’s about recognizing that we all carry different burdens—and that what’s happening outside of work impacts each of us in unique ways. Let’s lead with curiosity, not assumptions.

This episode is a reminder that our humanity doesn’t pause during work hours. And that acknowledging what people are carrying—without judgment—might be the most powerful leadership move we make all week.

Give it a listen. Reflect. Then ask yourself: how am I showing up for others… and for myself?

Welcome to this week's episode of DEI After 5. Today, I decided to shift our focus slightly while still staying within the realm of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). Specifically, I want to delve into the inclusion aspect and address a pressing issue I've been noticing: burnout among first-line and middle managers.

Through my recent webinars, client conversations, and surveys, I've identified that burnout is less about the workload and more about the organizational culture. Middle managers, in particular, are feeling emotionally exhausted and unsupported. They are tasked with creating environments of psychological safety and inclusion but often don't receive the same support from their higher-ups.

Three key themes have emerged:

* Emotional Exhaustion and Lack of Support: Many middle managers feel they are not getting the support they need, which adds to their emotional burden.

* Misalignment Between Actions and Words: There's a disconnect between what organizations say and what they do, leading to a lack of trust and increased burnout.

* Need for Connection: Middle managers crave opportunities to connect, brainstorm, and realize they are not alone in their struggles.

To address these issues, I suggest the following actionable steps:

* Model the Pause: Leaders should demonstrate the importance of taking breaks and reflecting, setting an example for their teams.

* Two-Way Feedback Loops: Create environments where feedback is encouraged and valued, and ensure it's not just top-down but also bottom-up.

* Shift from Wellness Perks to a Culture of Wellness: Move beyond superficial wellness perks and foster a genuine culture of wellness within the organization.

Additionally, always ask your team members, "What can I do to help you be successful here?" This shows that you value them as individuals and are committed to their growth and well-being.

I hope these insights and tips help you build a more inclusive and psychologically safe environment within your organization. We'll continue to explore these topics in future episodes. Feel free to leave us a message with any topics you'd like us to cover.

DEI After 5 is a reader-supported publication and podcast. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

The Evolution of DEI Roles and the Importance of Skills Alignment

In recent years, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) roles have experienced significant transformations, largely in response to shifting organizational priorities and economic conditions. As discussed in this episode, many organizations are reevaluating their DEI initiatives, with some even scaling back due to external pressures, such as anti-DEI legislation. However, this evolution presents a unique opportunity for individuals to focus on how their existing skills can contribute to organizational goals, regardless of whether their job title explicitly includes DEI.

Understanding the Landscape

Sacha and guest, Andrea G. Tatum, highlight that the current economic climate has prompted many companies to scrutinize their bottom lines, resulting in layoffs and a reevaluation of roles across various departments. This reassessment has created a divide: some organizations are abandoning DEI efforts altogether, while others recognize the importance of embedding DEI principles into their core operations. For those looking to enter or transition within the DEI space, it is crucial to understand this landscape and how their skills can align with organizational needs.

Skills Over Titles

One of the key takeaways from the conversation is that DEI is not confined to a singular job title or department. Instead, it is an ecosystem that spans various functions within an organization. Individuals should recognize that their roles—whether in HR, marketing, product management, or any other area—can incorporate DEI principles. For example, a talent acquisition professional can influence diversity in hiring practices, while a product manager can ensure that products are developed with an inclusive lens.

They emphasize the importance of moving beyond a narrow focus on DEI job titles. Instead, individuals should consider how their skills and experiences can contribute to creating a more equitable and inclusive workplace. This means being able to articulate how their work impacts DEI outcomes, even if their official title does not reflect that focus.

The Importance of Results

As Andrea

points out, it is essential for individuals to frame their experiences in terms of results. When applying for jobs or discussing their career narratives, candidates should highlight not just what they have done, but also the outcomes of their actions. For instance, rather than simply stating that they managed an Employee Resource Group (ERG), they should explain how that management led to increased engagement or improved retention rates among underrepresented groups.

This results-oriented approach is particularly important in a competitive job market, where organizations are looking for candidates who can demonstrate their value in tangible ways. By focusing on how their skills can drive organizational goals—such as enhancing employee engagement, improving customer satisfaction, or fostering innovation—individuals can position themselves as valuable assets, regardless of their formal job titles.

Conclusion

In conclusion, as DEI roles continue to evolve, individuals should embrace the idea that they can contribute to DEI efforts from any position within an organization. By understanding the broader ecosystem of DEI, focusing on their transferable skills, and articulating the results of their work, they can effectively align themselves with organizational goals. This proactive approach not only enhances their career prospects but also supports the ongoing need for diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace.

In this episode of DEI After 5, we celebrate the return of the podcast after a brief hiatus. Sacha reflects on the importance of continuing discussions around diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) in the workplace and beyond. While the podcast name remains the same, the focus has expanded to encompass how DEI practices influence our lives, communities, and organizational cultures beyond 5 PM. Listeners can expect to see more solo episodes from Sacha, alongside guest appearances, fostering deeper conversations.

The episode invites audience engagement, encouraging listeners to submit questions or topics for discussion, and highlights the new Substack platform for ongoing connection and content.

Join us as we explore how to authentically incorporate DEI into every aspect of our lives. New episodes begin on June 3rd!

What does it mean to embody inclusion and belonging in your everyday life? How can community shape our success? By exploring these questions, Nancy and I uncover the importance of intentionally living out our beliefs, not just displaying them. It’s about setting the standard for behavior and modeling a culture that nurtures understanding and acceptance. The journey to success is rarely solo; it thrives in the richness of community, especially in places like Minneapolis, surrounded by innovation and Fortune 500 companies.

Let's dive into what it truly means to embody our values and foster an inclusive environment that celebrates our unique differences.

Find the full episode below:

DEI After 5 is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber.

In this episode of DEI After 5, host Sacha Thompson welcomes Dr. Daniel Jolles, a behavioral scientist and research officer at the London School of Economics. They explore the often-overlooked topic of age diversity in the workplace, discussing the generational miscommunications and differing values that can arise in diverse work environments. Dr. Jolles shares insights from his background in corporate project management, highlighting how redundancies disproportionately affect older employees. Tune in for an enlightening conversation on the importance of recognizing and addressing age diversity as part of a broader approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion.