Dennis & Barbara's Top 25 All-Time Interviews

You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa Chan
You and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa Chan
You and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa Chan

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  

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Marriage in Light of Eternity

Guests:                      Francis and Lisa Chan        

From the series:       You and Me Forever (Day 1 of 3)

Bob: You’ve heard the statistic that the divorce rate in the church is no different than the divorce rate outside of the church? Francis Chan says he’s not buying it. 

Francis: Yes; I mean, I really believe there has never been a divorce between two Spirit-filled believers. They are using stats of everyone who goes to church / calls themselves a Christian, which—and, that’s what the Bible / that’s what Jesus says all the time: “I know you say that you are a believer. You call Me, ‘Lord,’ but why do you call Me, ‘Lord,’ when you don’t do what I say? [emphasis added]”  You know, the whole book of 1 John is—it doesn’t matter that you say you know Him—because you don’t obey His commands, you are a liar. 

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, January 22nd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I’m Bob Lepine. To make a marriage work, Francis and Lisa Chan say it takes more than two—more than you and me. We’ll talk with them about that today. Stay with us. 

1:00

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Monday edition. Let me just start off today, if I can, Dennis, by reminding our listeners about the special offer we’re making this week on our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. If our listeners would like to join us at one of the fifty-plus upcoming getaways that we’ve got going on in cities all across the country this spring, sign up this week and save 

50 percent off the regular registration fee.

The offer expires this week. So take advantage of it by going to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions or if you’d like to register by phone. The number is 1-800-FL-TODAY. Again, the Weekend to Remember is a great getaway for husbands and wives—a great opportunity for you to get some uninterrupted time, where you’re focusing on one another, focusing on your marriage, and having some fun in the process. Again, you can find out more at FamilyLifeToday.com; but make sure you register this week in order to take advantage of the special 50 percent offer we’re making. 

2:00

The website is FamilyLifeToday.com; or call if you have any questions: 1-800-358-6329—that’s 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life,” and then the word, “TODAY.”

Now, I’ve got to be honest with you, Dennis. I have always wanted to meet one of our guests today, because I’ve always wanted to meet the woman who could be married to Francis Chan; you know?  [Laughter]  

Dennis: Yes; I’ve wondered that as well! So, Lisa, welcome to the broadcast. [Laughter]

 Lisa: Thank you very much. 

Dennis: You’ve kind of wondered that, too, by now; haven’t you?  

Lisa: Yes; what did I get myself into?—no. [Laughter]  

 Dennis: Well, he’s a good man, Francis.

Lisa: Yes; he is!  

Dennis: Welcome back. 

Francis: Thank you. 

Dennis: We’ve had you on the broadcast, and we have battled—

Francis: Yes. 

Dennis: —the soapbox in the middle of the table and the microphones as we talked about the Holy Spirit a number of years ago. 

Francis: That’s right. 

 Dennis: But you guys have written a fresh book called You and Me Forever. 

3:00

It’s subtitled, Marriage in Light of Eternity. Now, you may not know this, but our Weekend to Remember marriage getaway begins talking about the glory of God / the transcendent purpose of marriage as God intended it. Couples are learning that marriage is about more than just “you and me.”  

 Bob: And most people think it’s about them; don’t they?

Francis: Yes; marriage is such a small part of this bigger picture in Scripture. 

Bob: But be honest; you didn’t have the bigger picture when you went to Lisa and proposed; did you?  

 Francis: No, no, no; not at all. 

Dennis: You thought it was about you two; didn’t you?  

Francis: Oh, yes! Absolutely. 

 Bob: Tell us how you guys met and tell us how he popped the question, Lisa. 

 Lisa: Well, I knew the worship pastor at the church that Francis was working at, at the time. He and I had kind of grown up at the same church—the worship pastor. So, he had me come over and sing. He, actually, is the one who started feeding both of us these lines of—for me, it was: “You’ve got to stop dating anyone else. Francis is the one for you.” 

4:00

He was so confident! Dan, we thank you still. [Laughter] So, I came over—started going to the church a lot to play lead in their Christmas musical. Francis kind of found a way to ask me out. 

Francis: Yes; I asked if I could be a stage manager. I told—I was honest with the worship pastor—I go: “I don’t really care about your play. I want to meet this girl.” [Laughter]  

Dennis: So, you paid off the guy, Dan, and told him to arrange the marriage?

Francis: Oh, yes. He just gave me a little headset and said: “Hey, go. Meet her.”—you know? [Laughter] I seriously had no responsibilities except to ask her out. [Laughter]

Bob: So, how did you—how long, after you asked her out, before you proposed?  

Dennis: No, no. I want to find out about the first date. Lisa?

Lisa: Oh, the first date was great, because he planned it w...

You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa Chan
You and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa Chan
You and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa Chan

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  

References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.

Marriage for God’s Glory

Guests:                      Francis and Lisa Chan        

From the series:       You and Me Forever (Day 2 of 3)

Bob: It was after a trip to Africa that Francis Chan came back to his home in the United States and told his wife he thought God wanted their family to downsize. Lisa wasn’t so sure. 

Lisa: I didn’t want to give up my things. I didn’t want to move into a smaller home. It was like this ripping that was happening. Of course, because God is so faithful—and every time, He says, “If you lose your life for My sake, you will find it,”—on the flip side is when I got to see the joy of it and, eventually, got to go to Africa with Francis. I was just brokenhearted at my own resistance and sinfulness because I wished I could have had those feelings [of joy] on the outset. 

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, January 23rd. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I’m Bob Lepine. 

1:00

Lisa Chan says that God’s Word is true when it says, “Whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.” That’s true, even in marriage. We’ll talk more about that today with Francis and Lisa Chan. Stay with us. 

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition. We’ve been hearing, both last week and again this week, from a lot of our listeners who are getting in touch with us about the special offer that expires this week on our Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways. For those of you who are new listeners to FamilyLife Today, the Weekend to Remember is the two-and-a-half-day getaway we do for couples in cities all across the country. It’s a great romantic time away together, where you learn what the Bible teaches about God’s design for marriage. 

If you sign up for one of these getaways before the end of the week, you will save 

50 percent off the regular registration fee as a FamilyLife Today listener. 

2:00

We are encouraging you to get more information—go to FamilyLifeToday.com—find out when a getaway is going to be in a city near where you live and then block out that weekend, and call and register now to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. The number to call is 1-800-FL-TODAY. You can also register online at FamilyLifeToday.com. I know some of these getaways are starting to get close to selling out, so don’t hesitate. Join us at an upcoming Weekend to Remember marriage getaway, and register this week to save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. 

Now, I’ve got to be honest—I’m not sure I want to talk to the couple we have joining us today, because they just shared with us they’ve had like 12 fights in the past 21 years. I’m kind of like, “Bring me some couples I can relate to a little more”; you know? [Laughter]

3:00

Dennis: Well, I was thinking: “We’ve been married double that. We’ve got more than 24, though,”—[Laughter]—doubling your dozen that you’ve had. Francis and Lisa Chan join us on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back. 

Francis: Thank you. 

Lisa: Thank you. 

Dennis: They’ve written a book called You and Me Forever. In case there is a listener who doesn’t know who this couple is—they live in the Bay Area of Northern California. They are about church planting there—also, ministering to men / I assume it’s only men coming out of prison. 

Francis: Yes; we’ve been trying to start a women’s home as well. So, right now, it’s just the guys coming out of prison. 

Dennis: I want to go to something you mention in your book. You made this statement—you said, “If you could manuscript your prayers of what you’ve prayed about for the last month, what would they reveal about you, as a couple?”  

Francis: So, it’s like what David says in Psalm 27, verse 4, when he says, “This one thing I ask of the Lord and that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the Lord all the days of my life, to gaze upon the beauty of the Lord and to inquire in His temple.”  

4:00

That was his one prayer request: “God, I want You—I want You. I want to see You. I want to be with You.”  

So, the question is: “Give me a manuscript of your prayers for the last month. I want to hear: ‘What do you hunger for? What do you want?’ You’re coming before the Creator, the Sovereign One, who is in control of this whole earth; and what are you asking for?”  

Dennis: Yes. 

Bob: And most of us are asking for: “Fix this,”—

Francis: Yes. 

Bob: —“Make life easier or better—

Francis: Yes. 

Bob: —“for me”; right?  

Francis: Amen! 

Bob: So, if that’s—I mean, is it illegitimate for us to pray—

Francis: No. 

Bob: —“I’d like things to go better in my life”?  

Francis: No; you know, it’s—the Lord tells us to bring what we desire before Him; but also, the things that we desire reveal a lot about us; you know?  It opens our eyes to: “Wow! That’s what I’m about?—is: ‘Get rid of all my problems,’”—because I don’t see that in Scripture. It’s more about, “God, give me the strength to make it through this—develop my character through these trials.”  You know, that’s what I see in Scripture. 

5:00

Lisa: How much of my prayers do I pray for Francis?  Do I pray for his walk with God?  Do I pray that God would help in his moments of temptation?  I mean, that’s something that has developed in my life that softens my heart towards him—helps me to love him better. I want to be praying for him because who else is going to pray for him...

You and Me Forever (Part 1) - Francis and Lisa Chan
You and Me Forever (Part 2) - Francis and Lisa Chan
You and Me Forever (Part 3) - Francis and Lisa Chan

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  

References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.

Don’t Waste Your Marriage

Guests:                      Francis and Lisa Chan        

From the series:       You and Me Forever (Day 3 of 3)

Bob: Francis and Lisa Chan had not been married long when they started to think that their marriage needed to have more of an outward focus rather than an inward focus. 

Francis: And we started letting people in the home and having people actually live with us. Ministry was in-house, and our kids saw it. The kids saw the miracles in these peoples’ lives and the life-change. Discipleship was happening 24 hours a day in our home. We were missional. We were praying and saying, “God, what do You want us to do with this house?”—like everything was with an open hand, but I think that’s what so few couples do—is they don’t say, “Lord, what do You want?”  Instead, they think, “What do we want, and how can I justify that biblically?”  

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, January 24th. Our host is Dennis Rainey; I’m Bob Lepine. God can do some amazing things in the lives of couples and families who start to realize that marriage is about more than just the two of you. 

1:00

We’ll talk to Francis and Lisa Chan about that today. Stay with us. 

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. Before we dive right into what we’re going to talk about today, we have just a couple days left in the special offer we’re making to FamilyLife Today listeners. If you’d like to join us at one of our upcoming Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways coming to a city near where you live, you register before the end of the week and you’ll save 50 percent off the regular registration fee. This is the last week we’re making this offer—it’s the best offer we make all year long. So, if you’d like to save some money and have a great getaway together, as a couple, this spring—we’re going to be in more than 50 cities across the country this spring—plan to join us, and register now to take advantage of the special offer.

Go to FamilyLifeToday.com—you can register online—or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register or if you have any questions. 

2:00

Block out a weekend where the two of you can just kind of tune into each other and tune everything else out for 48 hours. The FamilyLife® Weekend to Remember marriage getaway really is a great getaway weekend for couples, and we’d love to have you register this week so you can save some money. Again, go to FamilyLifeToday.com; or call 1-800-FL-TODAY to register. 

Now, we have had Francis and Lisa Chan joining us this week. It’s been fun to get a little dirt on this couple—you know—I mean, on their marriage. 

Dennis: Well, on Francis. [Laughter] Francis—

Bob: That’s true. I don’t know that we’ve gotten any dirt on Lisa. 

Dennis: I don’t think we’ve heard much on Lisa. 

Lisa: Well, we don’t have any more time. [Laughter]  

Dennis: Welcome back to the broadcast. 

Lisa: Thank you. 

Dennis: Glad you’re here. 

Francis and Lisa Chan have written a book, You and Me Forever. It’s all about marriage in light of eternity. In fact, you say something in your book, Francis, I want you just to comment on here. 

3:00

You say that it’s important to love Lisa in light of eternity. Explain to our listeners what you mean by that statement. 

Francis: Yes; it’s the same thing that the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15. He said, “If there is no resurrection from the dead, then, I am above all men most to be pitied,”—like: “I would live completely differently if there is no forever / if there is no eternity. Then, let’s just enjoy—we’ll just eat, drink, and] be merry. Let’s just have a great little family / have a great time here on earth, and just think about us.”  But no—because there is a forever—now: “How do I love her in the greatest way?”  

Dennis: —and because you are accountable to the God who made us.

Francis: Yes; and made her for a reason!  

Dennis: Right. 

Francis: And He made this marriage for a reason—it was for Him. Everything was created by Him and for Him. 

4:00

So, we—I mean, this is what differentiates / is supposed to differentiate us from the rest of the world—is that we’re not living for this life. It’s not about your best life right now. It’s about: “No; I’m thinking about the future. I’m storing up treasure in heaven.”  Don’t waste your time just building up and storing up treasures on earth, where someone is going to steal it, or it’s going to fall apart, and you’ve got to insure it and everything else. Store up this treasure in heaven. Really believe that you are going to be rewarded a hundred times anything you sacrifice. 

If I am thinking about Lisa’s forever and her future, then, I’m going to live a lot differently right here. 

Bob: Lisa, I had the opportunity, a number of years ago, to go to a group of friends. I said, “If you were going to share a passage from the Bible about marriage with a couple just getting started—and it couldn’t be Ephesians 5, couldn’t be 1 Peter 3, couldn’t be Colossians 3—kind of the big ones that we all go to / couldn’t go there—what passage would you share with them?” 

5:00

And two guys that I asked the question to, independently, gave me the same verse. It was one that really surprised me. It was out of Psalm 34. They said, “I used this verse to propose to my wife.” It was the verse that says, “O, magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt His name together.” They said: “We wanted to start our marriage saying, ‘This is what we’re getting married to do—to magnify the Lord together and exalt His name t...

The Good Life (Part 1) - Chuck Colson
The Good Life (Part 2) - Chuck Colson

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript

References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.

The Good Life

Day 1 of 2

Guest:                             Chuck Colson

From the Series:         Coming to Grips With Grace

________________________________________________________________

Bob:                Does it seem to you that people today appear interested in spiritual things, but when you start talking about authentic biblical Christianity, they tune you out?  Here's Chuck Colson.

Chuck:            We live in a time what's called "post-modernism," which means there is no truth, everything is relative, so there's no standards, no yardsticks, nothing to measure your life by, and what I'm saying to people is, "Yeah, that's where the secular world is."  And if we hit them with a Bible, they're going to turn away.  They're just going to say, "Here comes one of these people preaching at us.  This is the Bible Belt."  But if you start talking to them about the meaning of their lives and where they're going to find fulfillment in life, you can engage them.

Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, August 29th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  We'll talk about how to engage the culture in a spiritual conversation with our guest, Chuck Colson, today.

                        And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  You know, it's not often when somebody comes to faith in Christ that it makes national news headlines.  But I remember back when I was – I guess I was in high school or in college when the news came that Chuck Colson had found Christ, and the reason I remember it is because, honestly, if I'm telling the truth, I was kind of cynical about the whole thing, and I thought, "Oh, yeah, I bet he found Christ."  You know, the guy is trying to get out of a prison term, and he thinks maybe religion will help him out a little bit with that.  Did you think – do you remember hearing about it?

Dennis:          I do.  And, frankly, I remember having some of those same thoughts, and he joins us on the broadcast.  It was the real deal.  Chuck, I’m glad it wasn't a fake.

Chuck:            Thirty-two years ago, if it was a fake, I've certainly maintained it over these years.  But you guys weren't alone.  I mean, 90 percent of the world believed I was just looking for sympathy.

Bob:                Well, and Larry King has said to you – he has been impressed by – he's been witnessed to by the fact that you persevered in your faith.

Chuck:            Every time I have an interview with Larry King over the years, and I've had many of them, he would say, "You know, I just am so impressed.  You keep doing this."  And a number of the secular interviewers will say, "You're really doing something with your life that I should have been doing in my life."  Dan Rather said that to me this past spring.  

                        So maybe that's the witness, and when you say publicity, goodness, most of our listeners won't remember Eric Sevareid or Walter Cronkite, but they devoted almost an entire broadcast on CBS News to my conversion.  It was bigger news than Watergate, because it was so improbable.  "The Boston Globe" said "If Mr. Colson can find God and be forgiven, there is hope for everybody."

Dennis:          And there is.

Chuck:            And there is.  My life proves that.

Dennis:          There really is.  You write in your book, you just released a new book called "The Good Life."  You mentioned that this book is like looking in a rearview mirror.  

Chuck:            Yeah, it is.

Dennis:          And you're looking back over how you describe a tumultuous life.  You know, if you would have said that to me 25 years ago, Chuck, I'd have said, "Well, yeah, maybe you, because of where you came from, being with Nixon in the White House and going to prison and all the fallout of making national news with a crime," but you know what?  Now, being 57 years old, I understand what you mean.  Life is tumultuous and looking back over it, we can live a good life if we have our hope in the right place.

Chuck:            Yes, it's true.  Everybody thinks that you can go through life, and it's a breeze.  People who haven't had a major crisis in life, people who haven't fallen on their face, just have to wait for their turn, because it will happen.  You think you've got life all together, the world rolls over on top of you.  

                        But I've tried to write this book – you're quite right – looking at my life through the rearview mirror.  I'm 73 years old.  You learn a lot; you learn a lot from your own experiences; you learn from your own failures, which I've had my share, certainly; and you learn from the lessons of other people's lives.  And so "Born Again" was written prospectively.  I told the story of my conversion, coming out of politics, coming to Christ, going to prison, and that was sort of a forward look at a new life in Christ.  

                        Now, 32 years later, let's look back and see what really happened – what worked out, what didn't work out.  And I wrote this basically – I think you fellows know, I wrote it principally for seekers.  People today are searching for questions about meaning and purpose and what is life all about and how do I find my fulfillment and why am I here and what's my purpose, what am I going to do with my life?  So I wrote this, hopefully, because my life has been such a rollercoaster, up and down, that people would look at my life and then learn some of the lessons that I've learned, and it leads you to only one place, as all of us know.

Bob:                Well, it's interesting, because as I started reading through this book, I had the thought this is your Ecclesiastes.

Chuck:            Yes, it is – vanity, vanity and striving after the wind, precisely.

Bob:                All of life is that until you come to the end, and...

 The Good Life (Part 1) - Chuck Colson
The Good Life (Part 2) - Chuck Colson

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript

References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.

The Good Life

Day 2 o 2

Guest:                        Chuck Colson

From the Series:      A Life Well-Lived

________________________________________________________________

Bob:                Do the truth claims of Christianity make rational, logical, reasonable sense?  Chuck Colson says they do.

Chuck:            I've gotten so convinced of the truth of the biblical worldview as applied in life against any other worldview, and I'm convinced if I could argue the case that the biblical worldview is the only one that conforms to reality, that I would win that case, hands down, intellectually – by reason, by arguments, by logic.  But that doesn't get you to God.  As a matter of fact, sometimes the more you know, the tougher it gets.

Bob:                This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, August 30th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What can we do or say that will persuade a watching world of the reality of who Christ is?

                        And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us.  You know, the guest we have with us this week – I don't know – in fact, I'm curious – it's obvious, as you read through what he's written, that he's been influenced by C.S. Lewis and by Francis Shaffer, and I just wonder who wins the battle there – Lewis versus Shaffer?  Who has had more influence in Chuck Colson's life – C.S. Lewis or Francis Shaffer?

Chuck:            I would hate to answer that question, Bob, because both of them have had a huge influence on my life.  Lewis would probably, however, if I had to chose between the two, would be number one because it was his arguments in "Mere Christianity," that persuaded me that Christianity is rational, reasonable, sustainable, as a matter of fact, nothing else makes sense.  And so you'll see a lot of Lewis through this book.

                        In terms of my theology, Shaffer; and, before him, Abraham Kiper, influenced my perspective on Scripture and the relationship of the church and Scripture to the world.  So in two different areas, I am profoundly grateful to those three men.

Bob:                Was Shaffer still alive when you came to faith?

Chuck:            Oh, yes, I knew him.  Oh, sure, I went to LeBrie [ph] and visited with him at his invitation.  We spent a day together.  It was a wonderful time.  He was a very humble man, and then I visited with him a number of times when he came to the States and was at speeches and conferences.  I was at his funeral, the first person to come in and view the body, as a matter of fact, when he laying in his living room.

Bob:                I kind of just jumped in.  I guess most of our listeners probably know our guest.

Dennis:          I think they recognized the voice of Chuck Colson.  Chuck, welcome back to FamilyLife Today.  

Chuck:            Thanks, Dennis, nice to be with you.

Dennis:          Chuck has written a book called "The Good Life," and you don't have to turn but a couple of pages before you read a quote by Pascal, who said, "The supreme function of reason is to show man that some things are beyond reason."

Chuck:            Blaise Pascal is one of the most interesting men ever, and his writings have affected me greatly, as well, particularly his Pensees.  But Pascal died in his late thirties, and was the inventor of the computer.  He did the first crude calculating device.

Bob:                This isn't some Al Gore thing you're just making up?

Chuck:            No, no, this isn't Al Gore inventing the unit.  Blaise Pascal, 300 years ago, came up with the concept that has become the computer.  He was also a great philosopher and great Christian.  What he's basically saying is that reason is a gift of God, and we can use reason to pursue with our minds facts and truth, and the more we look for the facts and truth about life, we will eventually get to the point where we realize reason takes us only so far.

Dennis:          Right.

Chuck:            And the more we reason – and that's what I do in this book – the more we reason, we get to the place where we have to end up in faith.

Dennis:          You tell a story at the beginning of your book that beautifully illustrates that.  It's about your daughter, Emily, who is a single parent raising an autistic child, Max.  

Chuck:            Yes, she's a great heroine to me, and Max is the most lovable kid in the world.  And I tell the story of why I wrote this book, basically, this book is to try to show people how the world works and how they fit into it, and it's to be non-threatening.  It's a book for seekers.  That's why it relies on reason for the first two-thirds of the book before it gets to Scripture and faith, because I want to draw people in.

                        But one thing about autism, as most people perhaps are aware, everything has to be orderly in just perfect arrangement for an autistic child.  When Max comes to our house – he's 14, he's getting to be a big kid. Emily does a wonderful job managing him.  When he comes to our house, he checks where all the pictures are.  Are they all on the wall, in the same place?  Does the stove work the same way?  Has anything changed?  And then as long as he knows everything is okay, he's at peace.

                        Well, one night we had a visitor come to the house, and it was unexpected, and he brought a Christmas gift for me, and when he came in the house, Max started to get agitated, and you could see he was going to have what euphemistically called a "meltdown," and they go out of control, they have a tantrum.  So Emily grabbed a pad and sat down with Max and drew pictures.  She's a good artist.  She drew little box pictures like a comic strip.  And she would say, "This man knocking on the door, he's a friend of Grand...

Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria Butterfield
Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 2) - Rosaria Butterfield
Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria Butterfield

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  

References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.

A Train Wreck Conversion

Guest:                         Rosaria Butterfield

From the series:       Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Day 1 of 3)

Bob: In 1997, Dr. Rosaria Champagne was a tenured professor at Syracuse University. She was a committed feminist who had no real belief in God. There was one other aspect to her story that made her an unlikely convert. 

Rosaria: I, at the time that I started reading the Bible, and I, at the time that I started meeting with a Christian pastor, was in a lesbian relationship. It wasn’t just my first lesbian relationship. I fully embraced the lesbian community. 

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, September 16th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I’m Bob Lepine. Dr. Rosaria Champagne is now Dr. Rosaria Champagne Butterfield, a pastor’s wife and a homeschooling mother of four adopted children. We’ll hear her journey this week. Stay with us. 

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You remember me coming to you a few months ago and going, “I have just read an amazing story;” right? 

Dennis: Right. And Barbara had read it, as well. 

Bob: Yes. And this is—in fact, I would say—I try to keep a running list of books that I read during the year. I would say this is still at the top of my 2013 list—this book—because it’s just—it’s a great story—but the greatness of the story is the transformation that takes place in what we’re going to hear about today. 

 Dennis: Yes. It’s not often you hear someone refer to their conversion to Christ as a train wreck; but our guest, [Laughter] on today’s broadcast, describes it that way. Rosaria Butterfield joins us on FamilyLife Today. Rosaria—welcome to our broadcast. 

Rosaria: Thank you so much. I’m delighted to be here with you. 

Dennis: I remember when Bob walked in—and I was getting it from him, here at the office—and Barbara had read a review of your book. She said, “This is something you ought to do radio on.” 

First of all, just to introduce you to our listeners, Rosaria has been married to her husband, Kent, since 2001. They have four children. She is a former English professor who was tenured at Syracuse University. That’s kind of where we’re going to go back to—to start this story. 

Rosaria: Okay. 

Dennis: And she has written a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert, subtitled An English Professor’s Journey into the Christian Faith. 

Bob: And it’s not unusual that English professors would come to Christ [Laughter]—but your particular interest and lifestyle, back in the 90’s—that’s what made your conversion unlikely; isn’t it? 

 Rosaria: Yes, definitely. So, just a quick answer would be, “Definitely.” When I first started reading the Bible, I was reading the Bible because I was working on a post-tenure book. It was a lesbian, feminist critique of the Bible. I was concerned about the rise of the religious right. I was threatened by the rise of the religious right, and I wanted to read this book that got all these people into trouble. So, that’s where I started. 

But I guess, because my life just seemed sort of boring and normal to me, I find it sort of strange [Laughter] sometimes that my journey seems so odd; but I guess that’s—

Dennis: Well, let’s just peel it back a little bit. 

Rosaria: Okay, let’s peel it back. 

Dennis: Let’s talk about—you were a feminist. 

Rosaria: Oh, yes, absolutely. 

Dennis: Yes. 

 Rosaria: Yes, committed. 

Dennis: Explain what kind of feminist. I mean—there is a spectrum. 

Rosaria: There’s a spectrum, absolutely. I firmly believed that a feminist world and life view was a moral and ethical approach to living and, in fact, one that would get us out of so many of the problems that we were facing. When I looked at the world—and I saw racism, and homophobia, and violence of all kinds—you know, there was no way I could look at this world and say, “Oh, you know, obviously, a loving God is in control of it.” 

So, I—like many, many other people—rolled up my sleeves and said, “Okay, how are you going to think our way of it?” So, feminism, to me, was a very broad umbrella that allowed for the pursuit of individual rights, within what I perceived to be a moral framework. 

Dennis: And you viewed Christians as—

Rosaria: Dangerous. 

Dennis: Dangerous; okay. 

Rosaria: Dangerous, anti-intellectual people. 

Dennis: Yes. They weren’t thinkers, and they weren’t readers—you wrote about it in your book. 

Rosaria: Right. And that was—that’s not very nice; is it? [Laughter] I am a Christian right now and I could be in charge of the self-help group: “Over-Readers Anonymous”. So, it’s not nice to say; but that was my perception. My perception was—as a university professor, I met a number of Christians—this is how these people came across. Now, whether they came across this way because I was deep in my sin or whether this is an accurate portrayal, I will let you all decide. 

But folks who would tell me that Jesus is the answer—without caring to even hear about what some of my questions might be—you know, questions and answers go together. There is a logical relationship between the two. Or when the Bible was invoked, it was often invoked in the same way that I might invoke a punctuation mark—to end a conversation rather than deepen it. Well, that seemed pretty fear-driven to me. I didn’t like it. 

And then, finally, my biggest concern, though, was the fact that the Bible—many, many people knew what the Bible said, or believed they did—but nobody could tell...

Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria Butterfield
Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 2) - Rosaria Butterfield
Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria Butterfield

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  

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What Is Hospitality?

Guest:                         Rosaria Butterfield

From the series:       Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Day 2 of 3)

Bob: Rosaria Butterfield was a committed feminist and a lesbian when a local pastor and his wife invited her over for dinner. What she found in that dinner, and as she started attending his church, was that her caricature of Christians and Christianity was off the mark. 

 Rosaria: I did not meet Christians who shared a narrowly-bounded, priggish world view. That is not what I met. I met people who could talk openly about sexuality and politics and did not drop down dead in the process. Ken Smith made it so clear to me that he could accept me right where I was—that there is a difference between acceptance and approval. 

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, September 17th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I’m Bob Lepine. We’ll hear today how a Presbyterian pastor was used by God to share the Gospel with a lesbian college professor and about the remarkable transformation that God did in her life. Stay tuned. 

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You know, if we were going to sit down in our communities and think where might there be a fertile mission field—people who would be open to hearing the message of the Gospel—I don’t think we would think, “Well, I bet the queer studies program, down at the university—I bet they are dying for somebody to come in and share about Jesus with them.” You know? 

Dennis: I wouldn’t think so. 

Bob: But the story we’re hearing this week is the story of an unlikely convert. At least, that’s what it says on the front of this book. 

Dennis: That’s right. Rosaria Butterfield joins us, again, on FamilyLife Today. Rosaria—welcome back. 

Rosaria: Thank you so much. I am delighted to be here. 

Dennis: I want you to unpack what Bob just said because some of our listeners are going: “Wait a second! Did Bob just use the word, ‘queer’?” 

Rosaria: He did. He did. 

Dennis: And before we came into the studio—

Rosaria: Right. We talked about it. 

Dennis: —I asked you about this. I think a lot of our listeners would—

Rosaria: Sure. 

Dennis: —like to know what the background is. Let me just introduce you, though, before you answer my question. Rosaria has been married to her husband, Kent, since 2001. They have four children. She is a former English professor at Syracuse University. She has written a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. 

Bob: And did I say something wrong when I said, “queer”? 

Rosaria: You did not! No, you did not. Gay and lesbian studies started as a way of understanding the lives and appreciating the contributions made by gay men and lesbian women—but in a context of post-modernism and post-structuralism, even the—what we call normative gender of that statement—men, women—even the normative gender of that statement has become what we call contested or something that is only fixed in the eyes of a culture, not in the hearts of people. So, Queer Theory is the academic manifestation of the post-modern and post-structural world views as it applies to a person’s sexuality. 

Bob: So, in 1997, studying—advancing Queer Theory—as a tenured professor at Syracuse—

Rosaria: Well, I was tenured in ’98—

Bob: Okay. 

Rosaria: —but you know.

Bob: And you’re in a lesbian relationship, at the time. 

Rosaria: Absolutely. 

Bob: You write an editorial in the Syracuse newspaper, talking about these patriarchs who are coming to Syracuse—the Promise Keepers group: “No way should we let them near the campus.” 

Rosaria: Right. 

Bob: You get hate mail, and you get fan mail, and you get one letter from a pastor who says, “Let’s talk.” 

Rosaria: Right. 

Bob: And that conversation—the beginning of that conversation put you on an unexpected path. 

 Rosaria: Yes, it did; absolutely; absolutely. 

My husband’s name is Kent. Kent is the pastor of the First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham. He just finished a series on hospitality—a preaching series. It was really interesting for me to sit—many, many years later—and remember that hospitality does not mean fellowship. Hospitality means bringing the stranger in. More than that, it means going to the gate, and getting the stranger, and bringing him or her in. I think, sometimes, Christians think we’re practicing hospitality when we have our homeschool friends from church over for lunch. Well, that’s fellowship, and that’s very good; but it’s not hospitality. 

Dennis: You mentioned that the gay and lesbian community was good at this. 

Rosaria: Very good at this. So, every Thursday night, my partner and I would open our home to anybody in the gay and lesbian community who wanted to just come in, and talk to us, and tell us what is going on. I tell pastors—you know: “Hints from Eloise.” 

Bob: “It’s a good strategy here.” 

Rosaria: “It’s a good strategy—just open it up—don’t call it a Bible study. Call it a—just whatever—and just find out who your people are.” 

Dennis: Give us some idea of who would come over to your house when you and your partner invited. 

Rosaria: Well, I lived—first of all, we are not—I think people don’t understand, sometimes—that, at a university, and especially, where I was coming from...

Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 1) - Rosaria Butterfield
Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 2) - Rosaria Butterfield
Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Part 3) - Rosaria Butterfield

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  

References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.

What Is Truth?

Guest:                         Rosaria Butterfield

From the series:       Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert (Day 3 of 3)

Bob: After meeting a number of times with a local Presbyterian pastor, Rosaria Butterfield—a college professor, a committed feminist, a lesbian—remembers the morning that everything changed for her. 

 Rosaria: One day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God. It was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God’s Word. It was very powerful. The prayer that came out—after that—which really surprised me, “Lord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?” 

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, September 18th. Our host is the President of FamilyLife®, Dennis Rainey, and I’m Bob Lepine. We will hear today how God answered Rosaria Butterfield’s prayer. Stay tuned. 

And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. There is a passage in a book I read years ago called A Severe Mercy. The author is a man named Sheldon Vanauken, and he was a skeptic at Oxford University. He started writing letters to one of his professors, C.S. Lewis, asking him questions all about Christianity. He’d get a letter written, and Lewis would respond back to him with an answer. He’d write a new letter and get an answer back. 

 He’d finally written a letter to Lewis one time. The answer that came back was: “I’ve decided not to answer your questions anymore.” He said: “It’s—I’m pretty well convinced that The Hound of Heaven is after you, and it’s just a matter of time.” [Laughter] I remember reading that—and I remember Vanauken reading and going—he was a little put off; but then, he got a little worried that, maybe, in fact, it was just a matter of time. [Laughter] 
 
 And I have to wonder if our guest, this week, has—didn’t have something of that same experience in her life. 

 Dennis: Yes. And I’ve been chased down by The Hound of Heaven, as well. It’s good that He’s on our trail. 

 Rosaria: Amen. Amen. 

Dennis: I agree with you. Rosaria Butterfield joins us, again, on FamilyLife Today. Welcome back. 

Rosaria: Thank you very much. 

Dennis: She has written a book called The Secret Thoughts of an Unlikely Convert. How do you summarize, Bob, what we’ve talked about—

Bob: This week? 

Dennis: —this week. I mean, Professor of English at Syracuse University and was a part of the women’s studies. You were a teacher in the queer studies program. You were a lesbian—had a live-in lover that you were with for a number of years. 

In the process, she wrote a letter, criticizing a group that came to the Carrier Dome, there at Syracuse University—a group called Promise Keepers. A pastor wrote you back. Long story made short—instead of condemning you, he just started asking you questions that caused you to ponder and reflect, spiritually. And The Hound of Heaven began to get on your trail. 

Bob: And you found yourself wrestling with whether the Bible is true—whether it’s authoritative—

Rosaria: That’s right. That’s right. 

Bob: —whether your life had to come under the authority of the Scriptures and of the God of the Scriptures. 

Rosaria: That’s right. 

Bob: But in your case, if you are going to believe this—

Rosaria: Right. Oh, yes, yes. 

Bob: —and if you are going to act like you believe this, it’s revolutionary. It’s going to leave you with a lot of your old friends who don’t want to talk to you anymore and a lot of new friends that you don’t know if you want to hang around with. 

Rosaria: Yes, that’s very well-put; right. And so, I did. One day, I got up; and I got out of bed that I shared with a woman. I brushed my teeth, and I walked the dogs. An hour later, I was sitting in a pew at the Syracuse Reformed Presbyterian Church. I came there to meet God, and—

Dennis: And when you said you came to meet God, you showed up to surrender. 

Rosaria: Well, not at first. I mean, I’d love to say that! You see, you make me look good; but that’s not true. At first, I was just really curious about sort of the: “What’s the next step? Okay, I’ve read the Bible, now, more than once; and I’ve studied it. Now, what? Okay, we you go to church. Let’s find out what’s going on there.” 

It was very powerful, sitting under the preaching of God’s Word. It was very powerful. Then, the prayer that came out after that—which really surprised me. It had nothing to do with my sexuality. It had everything to do with my pride and my gender, “Lord, could you make a woman, like me, a godly woman?” It was really not much of a prayer. It was more of a question, but God answered that question because God can do anything! Right?— you know, “Can these dry bones rise?”—right? Not by their own will—they cannot. 

Bob: Those two questions, as you sat listening to God’s Word being preached—and this is over a period of—

Rosaria: Years. 

Bob: —of years. 

Rosaria: Of years. 

Bob: But those two questions kept haunting you to a point where you finally—

Rosaria: Right, I did. 

Bob: —had to throw in the flag and say, “Okay.” 

Rosaria: “Okay, Lord, I’m yours. I’m yours.” 

Bob: Tell us about that day. 

Rosaria: In some ways, it was very anticlimactic because of all the things that had preceded it. I was still kicking up a bit of a fit about: “Oh, poor me. I ...

A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 1) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss
A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 2) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss
A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 3) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss
A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 4) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss
A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 5) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  

References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.

God's Woman in Today's Culture 

Day 1 of 5

Guest:                        Nancy Leigh DeMoss

From the series:       A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood

Bob: How should we understand womanhood biblically?  And why are we so confused about it, anyway?  Here is Nancy Leigh DeMoss.

Nancy: Let me say that I think it is the nature, ever since the fall of man and woman, to chafe against God.  But, for me, the essence of femininity is to embrace the concept of surrender as a woman to become a receiver, a responder, and surrendered to the heart and the will of God.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Monday, June 16th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  How well does your understanding of womanhood line up with what the Bible teaches?  We'll talk about that today.  Stay tuned.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Monday edition.  You know, for the last many years, there has been a movement in our country where a lot of men are looking around and asking the question, "What does it mean to be a man?  What does the Scripture teach us about authentic biblical manhood?"  And I think that while that's been going on, Dennis, there have also been a lot of women who are beginning to say, "I'm not so sure I know what it means to be an authentic woman biblically.  I'm not sure I know what the Scriptures teach about biblical womanhood," and that's what we're going to take some time to focus on this week.

Dennis: Yes, in Genesis, chapter 1, verse 27, it's clear – "And God created man in His own image, in the image of God, He created him – male and female, He created them."  And God's image is at stake in both men and women, and there has been a great deal of attention that has been given to defining manhood.  But at points it feels like there has been a little bit of a silence concerning a voice of trying to cast a portrait of what it means to be a woman.  And with us here on the broadcast is another man to help us define and paint a portrait of what it means to be a woman.

Bob: Hang on, that would be a serious error on your part, technically.

Dennis: Do you think that I would be flawed in my judgment, Bob, to bring another male species in here to do that?

Bob: I think three men could sit around and attempt to define femininity …

Dennis: And we would lose our entire female listening audience.

Bob: There would be a lot of women who would say, "I'm not sure you know of what you speak."

Dennis: Well, with us in the studio is Nancy Leigh DeMoss.  Nancy is a great friend.  She's been on FamilyLife Today before.  Nancy, welcome back to FamilyLife Today.

Nancy: Thank you, Dennis.

Dennis: She puts up with us a lot.  She just kind of looks at us and nods and says …

Bob: … rolls her eyes …

Dennis: … yeah, that's exactly right.  Nancy is a graduate of the University of Southern California.  She has a degree in piano performance.  Nancy, are you really that good?  I've heard you are.

Nancy: Well, that's kind of a past-tense part of my life.

Dennis: Oh, is it?

Bob: I know you haven't had a whole lot of time to do much piano performing in the last several years.  As many of our listeners know, Dennis, Nancy hosts a daily radio program that's heard on many of these same stations.  It's called "Revive our Hearts."  You've been busy writing a number of books including the bestseller, Lies Women Believe," and the companion now, "Lies Young Women Believe."  There has also been a trilogy of books on surrender and brokenness and holiness, and this fall you're going to be involved in a national conference for women in Chicago called "True Woman '08."  Joni Eareckson Tada is going to be speaking there; so is Janet Parshall, John Piper is going to be there, you're going to be there, Dennis; your wife, Barbara, is speaking as part of that conference, and if our listeners are interested in finding out more about True Woman '08 they can go online at FamilyLife.com and click on "Today's Broadcast," and there is a link there that will get them information on how they can attend this national conference taking place in Chicago.  And with all of that going on, there's not a whole lot of time left for piano playing.

Dennis: Nancy, we have laughed here early, but there is a great deal of tension when it comes to talking about what it means to being a man or a woman today, and a great deal of confusion.  What do you think has caused this confusion?  What's the greatest contributor to the confusion of what it means to be a woman today?

Nancy: Well, let me just give a word of personal testimony here and say that being a woman is not something that I have always embraced with joy myself.  I did have the privilege of growing up in a godly home and under the strong ministry of the Word, but I can remember, as a teenager and young woman, feeling a measure of resentment …

Dennis: Really?

Nancy: … even, at the fact that God had made me a woman.  And the reason, in my case, was that I so wanted to serve the Lord, had a passion for Christ and for ministry, and in my young thinking, it was men who were best able to do that.  And I had this quiet sense in my heart that if God had made me a man, then I would be better able to serve Him.  I would be able to serve Him more effectively.

Dennis: In other words, you viewed your womanhood as a limitation to being used by God in the way that you dreamed of being used.

Nancy: I did. ...

A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 1) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss
A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 2) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss
A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 3) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss
A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 4) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss
A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood (Part 5) - Nancy Leigh DeMoss

FamilyLife Today® Radio Transcript  

References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.

Living God's Design for Your Life 

Day 2 of 5

Guest:                        Nancy Leigh DeMoss

From the series:       A Biblical Portrait of Womanhood

Bob: What does womanhood look like biblically at home?  Here is Nancy Leigh DeMoss.

Nancy: Scripture talks about a woman as reverencing her husband, honoring him, lifting him up; a woman who loves her husband, loves her children.  Proverbs speaks of the importance of a woman having the quality of discretion.  I think so many of these come back to the fact that God made us, as women, to be responders and to allow the men to be the initiators that God created them to be.

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, June 17th.  Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine.  What are the core character qualities that define biblical womanhood?  We'll talk about that today, stay tuned.

And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us on the Tuesday edition.  I remember when I was growing up, back then the "CBS Evening News" was hosted by Walter Cronkite – remember – Walter Cronkite, and over on NBC it was Chet Huntley and David Brinkley, and I don't remember who was on ABC and neither does anybody else because nobody was even watching ABC.  And so the executives over at ABC, I think it was Fred Silverman at the time, decided he was going to have two anchors, kind of like Huntley-Brinkley.  One of them was going to be Harry Reasoner, and the other Barbara Walters.  And for the first time, America was going to be asked to get their evening news from a woman.  There was a lot of discussion – was America ready to have a woman as a nightly news anchor?  

And, you know, we look at that now from the perspective of more than 30 years, and it's almost laughable.  I heard somebody the other day saying that most of the cable news anchors are women today, and we don't think anything of it.  And yet back then we were asking a lot of questions about what is the essence of manhood, what is the essence of womanhood?  And, frankly, even though we'd look back at having a female news anchor being revolutionary, and we'd laugh about that today, I still think there is a lot of confusion in our culture today about what's at the essence of manhood, and what's at the essence of womanhood?

Dennis: And because of the cultural shift, there has been a shift in the Christian community.  Unfortunately, we have lost our biblical moorings, our anchor point in the Scripture, and I fear that we're raising a generation of daughters and, for that matter, sons, who do not know what it means to be a woman or to be a man.  

And that's why we're committing these broadcasts just to helping women truly have a good grasp of what it means, biblically speaking, to be a woman.  And with us in the studio to help us here on a second day is Nancy Leigh DeMoss – Nancy, welcome back.

Nancy: Thank you.

Dennis: Nancy has spoken to women's groups for more than 20 years, and I think it's fair to say, Nancy, that this is a life message for you – defining what it means and painting a portrait of femininity, is that right?

Nancy: Well, God certainly has given me a heart to glorify Him, as a woman, and that means that there are issues that have to be wrestled with.

Bob: Yes, and you spend time wrestling with this issues on your daily radio program, "Revive Our Hearts," which many of our listeners are familiar with because it's heard on some of the stations that also carry FamilyLife Today.  You have also written a number of books including a bestselling book called "Lies Women Believe."  There is a new book out called "Lies Young Women Believe."  You've written a study guide called "Seeking Him," and our listeners may not know that you're going to be hosting a national conference in Chicago coming up in October.  

It's called True Woman '08, and you're going to be speaking there along with Joni Eareckson Tada and Janet Parshall and, Dennis, your wife, Barbara is going to be there, Karen Loritts is going to be speaking as well – Pastor John Piper is going to be speaking to the ladies, and there is already a lot of excitement about this conference.  In fact, it's starting to fill up.  So if our listeners are interested in attending the True Woman '08 conference, they should go to our website, FamilyLife.com, and click where it says "Today's Broadcast" on the right side of the screen, and they'll find a link to the True Woman website, and they can get registered online and plan to attend the conference.

Let me ask you about this issue of masculinity and femininity.  Does the Bible give us insight into why God created us differently?  Why He created us male and female?

Nancy: Well, actually, God answers that question for us in His Word, thankfully.  And we find, if we go back to the Genesis record, that God made the man first, God created the man in His image, unlike all that had preceded man, unlike the animals or the plants or the seas, the waters.  God looked at the man and said, "It's not good."  It's not good that the man should be alone.  

And then it is interesting to me that God sent Adam on a little hunt to find, if he could, a completer for himself.  Adam failed in that attempt.  There was no completer for him, and then I think Adam realized that God was the one who had to provide his completion.  God was the one who had to provide that which would complement him.  And then, as we know, God put the man to sleep …

Bob: And I don't know this, but I bet he snored like crazy during that nap.

Nancy: Probably, probably.

Bob: Just guessing on that.

Dennis: You think?

Bob: I just am guessing he was in a deep sleep and was sawing some mean logs....