Jamie Grant

Counselors Jamie Grant and Heather Parker answer the question, “Does my anger matter to God?” They discuss about how it is so often misunderstood in the church in this conversation with Dr. Kay Daigle.

Heather Parker

Because anger can masquerade as depression, we often fail to deal with it correctly. Trauma in children may cause anger that leads to other issues as they become adults. This insightful conversation can help us recognize anger and appropriately get help to deal with it.

This is an important topic for not only Christian leaders as they help others, but it is for all of us, knowing that we all deal with anger and that it matters to God.

This episode is available on video as well.

00:21 Introductions

Kay >> Hi. I’m Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. Welcome to this podcast and video episode. Today we’re talking about anger with our guests, Heather Parker and Jamie Grant. Welcome, ladies.

Jamie >> Thank you.

Heather >> Thanks for having us.

Kay >> Well, I’m excited about this conversation, and I feel like this is an important one right now. But let me just introduce these gals quickly. Jamie is a licensed professional counselor, and she graduated with a degree in counseling from Dallas Seminary. And she specializes in working with adults with complex trauma. She practices in a private practice here in North Dallas.

And Heather is in Birmingham. And she practices at Waterstone Counseling. She’s also a licensed professional counselor and supervisor and she specializes in helping people overcome trauma.

So both of them work with people with trauma issues and that’s how we started talking about what to talk about. And they brought up anger as a possible topic. And I was so delighted that you did that, because our society is just full of so much anger right now. I don’t think I’ve ever seen so much anger in my lifetime. And I’m old. So, you know, this is this is a very unique time, at least for the last, you know, century, I would say as far as anger is concerned. There’s just a lot of hatred and a lot of anger toward anyone that doesn’t agree with whoever it is. So all sides have anger.

And so let’s just talk a little bit about anger.

Let’s begin with us being Christians. I think it’s great to set the standard for where God comes from on anger, because we know God gets angry. God talks about God’s anger and he talks about it in the Bible. So what does the Scripture show us about God’s anger, You want to start us out, Jamie?

Jamie >> Sure. And without, you know, having a kind of list of the different references, just kind of a general idea of the God’s anger in the Scripture. I mean, so many times I hear people or I have heard people delineate or make this delineation between the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament seems so full of anger and wrath. And, you know, Jesus comes along and has like this compassion.

And so I think it’s really important to remember the God of the Old Testament is the same. God is the God in the New Testament. And, you know, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are all one. So there is no delineation; God is not divided in himself.

So the anger that we see in the Old Testament I think, points mostly to this is this is a part of God. And this is perhaps going to sound, maybe raise some questions or eyebrows for people like— God is angry. Yeah. And I think this is a really important part of why we’re talking about this anger is something we certainly see in God throughout Scripture speaking in the New Testament terms with Jesus over turning the money changers tables in the temple.

You know, Jesus had pretty strong feelings toward the Pharisees and the woes. And so if we’re made in God’s image and anger is a part of what informs God, then anger is a part of what he has given us to inform us..

Kay >> Good. Heather, do you want to add anything to that?

Heather >> You know, I think what comes to my mind is like if if we look at how it’s referenced in Scripture. In reference to God’s anger is usually slow. It’s usually restrained, and it’s usually not long lasting. So it’s what we’re seeing, I think, in society looks a little different right now. And so when you think about God and his anger, I love Tim Keller says that anger is love in motion.

And I feel like that when I think about God’s anger. That’s not what I was raised to believe. I don’t think I was taught that as a young believer, but it’s been a part of my own growth of beginning to look at the truth of what his anger showed up as and how it presented. And so that’s just what comes to my mind when I think about God and how it’s exhibited. It’s it’s not quick tempered. It’s not volatile.

And so I think that’s an important delineation.

Kay >> Yeah.

Jamie >> And I had one thing on that, too. Kay. I think there’s a very important differentiation to make between anger and rage. So and I love that you brought in, Heather, the slowness of God’s anger because the rage— I think what we see so much right now, especially in front of us, is this behavior of rage, which is very reactionary.

It’s not slow. Not informed. It’s a reaction. And it’s a behavior of acting out, which we’ll get into more when we talk about like what anger is. But I’m really just appreciating, Heather, you highlighting the slowness of God’s anger.

Kay >> You know, James talks about that. We’re to be slow to anger because the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God. And so there’s definitely a difference. God is trying to bring righteousness to the world. And when he’s angry, he is often dealing with the unrighteousness that’s going on and his determination to improve the world, not destroy it.

He is slow to anger. You’re right. I mean, hundreds of years he told the Jews that he was upset at them because they kept going back to idols. And yet he waited and waited and waited, giving them every chance before he actually judged them for what they did.

So how has being made in God’s image change how we think about human anger?

And that kind of flows from what we were just talking about. But do you want to add anything as far as us being in God’s image?

Heather >> I love this question because I think there’s a way that as humans, we’re taught that we should be above or different in some way, as if anger is bad or wrong. And yet if we’re made in his image, it’s going to be a natural part of who we are.

But I think it’s having clarity on what that means because like we were just speaking earlier, it doesn’t mean rage. It doesn’t mean acting out in that way. But if we’re  in his image, then our anger is a natural part of being who he made us to be. And it serves a really important purpose. And so, yeah, I’m trying to think of the right words to say, but it’s definitely something that I was taught was not okay.

And so to really explore this idea of who he is, and how does this look in him, and how does it look in me. And knowing that that’s an organic way that he made me has been really empowering and freeing and helps me. Like there’s a closeness that I feel in a way of yeah, just not being made to be bad or wrong for that being there.

Kay >> Which really takes us to my next question is about how anger is perceived by people. And you’re talking about how you always perceived it and you’ve changed your mind. But what are what are some ways, particularly for Christians, since this is really our audience, how would you say that Christians often perceive anger Jamie?

Jamie >> Funny because Heather and I talked about this question and tossed it around and I’ll speak to what comes up for me around the question. And part of that is like, I don’t know. I don’t know if I want to speak to everybody’s perception or kind of the church’s perception or individuals within the church perception of anger.

So I’m going to speak just from my experience and even my experience interacting with people within the church. And the perception that I am aware of is that anger is a negative emotion. It’s negative in general. It’s not positive. It doesn’t do any good. It’s of no use to be anger. It’s not nice. These are actual phrases or ways I’ve heard anger described that it’s not God’s best.

I’m pretty sure I could probably say that I’ve heard at least a few a handful of people say that it’s sinful. In that’s it’s really hard because it’s like there’s this cognitive part. I think that we’re like, well, we’ll know like it’s there, but we have to do something with it really quickly. Like, we have to put it away.

Don’t let the sun set on your anger and then taking that kind of into this very literal means of handling it rather than allowing ourselves kind of slowly again, bringing that back to becoming informed by it. So I think maybe the perception of anger is that anger gets conflated with the behaviors associated with anger. So this acting in or acting out. And I think those actually might be what people are referring to with sort of assessments about anger, but that’s actually anger itself is an emotion, not a behavior.

And Heather had also some thoughts on that question.

Heather >> So personally, my background is pretty diverse in different denominations and faith of the Christian faith. And so I’ve been exposed to a lot of different dynamics and being a part of like pastoral care groups like within our church and walking with people through really hard situations. I agree with Jamie. We can’t give a general assessment that this is how the church as a whole sees things.

But it’s not uncommon for us to be taught that if there’s anger, it’s a lack of spiritual maturity or a lack, as you know, you’re being quarrelsome or you’re being you’re causing dissension. And it can go from there to a lot more specific. Things that I’ve heard come out of people’s mouths from people in authority or in leadership and the effects of that is that it shuts down people from their inner knowing, you know, sometimes it is the Spirit in us telling us something’s not okay.

But when we’re told you’re being quarrelsome or you’re causing dissension, or the message is, don’t be you shouldn’t feel what you feel. And sometimes it’s couched even a little nicer, like you should have a quiet and gentle spirit and as if anger means you don’t.

And so yeah, it’s kind of a soapbox place for me. I can feel really angry around this because I don’t like how it shuts down that part of us that is created in his image.

And again, delineating, we’re not speaking of the rage and the uncontrolled fast temper. That’s not what we’re talking about.

Jamie >> And I want to add on to that, too, because there’s this important component of this is such a human part of us are anger, are our emotions. And they’re not just arbitrarily there. Like they’re given to us and given for a reason. And so if they’re there for a reason, if they’re important, if this is if my emotions are intended to be to inform me of something and I’m taught that certain ones are bad, then what ends up happening, I find, is that we internalize, we as people internalize this message that I am bad.

And so then there becomes this wall of shame built around anger, in this case, in not wanting to not wanting to touch it, because we’re we don’t want to be bad. We don’t want to be sinful, disqualified. And what ends up happening, and we’ll talk about this later as well, but the anger, it’s not like it goes away.

So it ends up, you know, just going right to us. We end up directing it at ourselves. And we’ll again, we’ll talk about that later. But yeah, that’s part of I think the concern is that I internalized this message that I’m bad when I hear the message that anger’s bad.

Kay >> God is angry at sin and we should be angry at sin, too. I mean, to say that anger is always bad really goes against the Scriptures because there are things that are evil. There are things that are sinful because they hurt people and people are hurt by and there’s no love there. And that’s the kind of anger that we want to avoid.

But there is an anger of what’s bad that is natural to us because God has put it there. Would you say that’s the case?

Heather >> Well, I just had this like I haven’t thought about this in a while, and it just came to my mind as such a picture of what we’re talking about, these messages that are not always— they’re so subtle that we grow up in and we don’t even realize that they’re happening. And this is specifically around anger when something is hurtful or not right.

My youngest went to a private Christian school, growing until around fifth grade, and she came home one day in elementary school in tears. And she was telling me about being on the playground. And these little girls had said they would play with her and then they got out there and said, no, we just changed our mind. We don’t want to play with you. And were really ugly to her.

And so my daughter expressed anger and she just she said, “That’s not right. Like, I’m really mad at you for telling me something and then doing something different.”

And these little girls circled around her and said, “You’re getting angry. And this is elementary school.

She says, “Yes, I am angry at you. You weren’t honest.”

And the little girl said, “Well, we don’t think you’re a Christian if you’re angry”

Those were four little girls. That messaging comes from what they’re surrounded in or surrounded by. And so if you think about that organically happening at such a young age and the messaging is if you expressed your anger as something that you’re not okay with, something that’s wrong or hurtful, then you’re not a believer. That it shows like the depths of this messaging.

I hadn’t thought about that until we just started talking. I was like, “Oh, this is a perfect picture of it.”

Oh, yeah, it was. It was really hurtful.

Kay >> Do you think that sometimes the issue of anger can become a tool for controlling, controlling people in the church particularly? Let’s talk about that sure.

Jamie >> Yeah. I think what was coming to mind, too, from your last question, you know, I had so many questions kind of inspiring in my mind over what you were talking about. And when we talk about, you know, one of the things that we do as people is anything that we don’t own of ourselves.

So if we’re talking in this case about anger, like here’s this message: don’t own anger like a you know, kindergartener, or going, well, you’re not a Christian if you’re angry. That’s a pretty like you were saying this a pretty deep message. It didn’t come from the start with the kindergartner. They’re hearing it somewhere.

So anything we don’t own in ourselves or take the time to be within ourselves serves as a potential tool to be projected onto other people. And I think what we don’t take time with in ourselves for various reasons, but we’ve become afraid of it.

Like, I think there’s a lot of fear of anger. I know I’ve experienced a lot of fear of my own anger, a lot of fear of other people’s anger with me. And so if I’m really afraid of this thing, you better believe I’m going to do everything I can to control it and make it go away.

If I’m in a position of leadership, and particularly in the church and afraid of my anger, and unwilling to kind of be with that part of myself, it’s probably a pretty good chance that I’m going to project that or project the fear of it or the badness of it out onto other people.

And that’s really damaging! And it’s unfair and it’s sinful.

Kay >> Do you want to add anything to that, Heather?

Heather >> No, I think that that says a lot.

It’s, you know, we can only go with other people to the places we’ve gone with ourselves. And I think that’s exactly what Jamie’s saying. And there are a lot of people who are just—we’re either taught to be afraid of it, afraid of our own or experiences of something called anger that’s actually not. That’s rage or volatility or, you know, that we end up wanting to stay away from it completely.

And there’s another piece that keeps coming to my mind is like when you said control. If the God-given purpose of anger is movement is to take action to do something, love in motion. And whether it’s leadership or in relationship, someone doesn’t want action to be taken, they will try to control by shaming around your anger or shaming either overtly or covertly around this gift that God’s given us. So there are subtle and not so subtle ways people want you to stay away from your God given anger because that’s going to create movement and change. But not everybody wants that.

Jamie >> It might also inform us that something’s wrong.

Heather >> Right.

Jamie >> And the person that’s trying to control that does not want you connected to a sense of there’s something wrong here.

Heather >> Yes.

Jamie >> That would shatter their control or the sense of control.

Heather >> Yes.

Kay >> And I’m sure we’ve all seen that.

Heather >> Yes.

Kay >> And not just in the church, but in various places, but it happens in the church, too.

Heather >> Just absolutely.

Kay >> Just as it does everywhere.

Let’s talk for a minute about just what anger actually is. We’ve really kind of talked about how it’s presented how it’s how we perceive it. And how things that we call anger are not anger. So how would you describe anger.

Jamie >> Without going into sort of the neurobiology of what anger is and where it kind of originates, I had the idea of maybe just having us here and the listeners can do just a really brief kind of little exercise and like a reflection.

If you’ve followed the news at all in the recent—maybe I should probably know exactly like when this started, but you know, since 2026 started, just take a moment to reflect on what has happened and happening in Minneapolis.

And doesn’t matter what side of the political spectrum you fall on. But just take a moment and kind of connect if you can to your internal sense of what you notice when you think about what has happened and is happening in Minneapolis in particular.

Kay >> Yeah..

Heather >> Yeah. It makes me think of like that protest, like the knowing, like something’s not sitting right with me.

Chip Dodd authored a book called The Voice of the Heart. And I love the way that he talks about anger is that it exposes what we’re passionate about. Like what matters to me. And if you think about even, like, us talking about the image of God and who he is, you know, his anger it’s exposing his passion and what matters to him, which is us.

And so it’s like when Chip references this in his book, he talks about how if we can begin to notice what we’re passionate about, just like Jamie inviting us to take a minute to really notice what’s coming up, then once we’re able to identify what is this that matters to me and what’s not sitting right? So it gives us—when we really sit with authentic anger, it opens up a space to be able to name this is not okay with me.

And then it can give us a lot of clarity on what that is and what steps we want to take. Is there a boundary that needs to be set? Is there some delineation that I need to say this is where I end and you begin? So the gift of anger is this getting in touch with what matters to me. What am I passionate about? What is not sitting well with me? And what steps do I need to take?

That’s an amazing gift—like that’s clarity. And so for us to fragment away from that is like— I would think that is sin as well because you’re not listening to a God-given gift that is full of wisdom and can be full of direction.

Kay >> Okay, well, we’re going to continue this conversation, but take some time to think about this before we come back in two weeks with the rest of the conversation. But I think you’ve given us some real thoughtful questions to just see in our own hearts between now and then what’s going on and to try to understand that anger can be a gift as Heather was just talking about, and what are what our reactions are.

Now, this podcast we’re talking right now in late January, and the things in Minneapolis have just been going on, particularly this week. We have no idea of what is going on by the time that this drops in a couple of months. So you can think of something else that’s coming up in the country and the world, n your community, in your family. You can do exactly what Jamie was asking you to do, just really sit with that and think about it.

So we look forward to that. Let me go ahead and I’m going to give us some resources real quickly and mention them again at the end of the next one as well. But Heather has already mentioned the Voice of the Heart: A Call to Full Living by Chip Dodd. And also she’s mentioned Tim Keller, and he has a sermon on the healing of anger.

Heather can be found at Waterstone Counseling and Consulting in Birmingham.

Jamie, why don’t you give us your contact information?

Jamie >> Sure. Yep. I my practice is in North Dallas. The name of our practice is Metanoia, which metanoia is the Greek word for the journey of change. So it can be found at metanoiadallas.com.

Kay >> That’s great. And we of course also have other resources at BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. And this particular episode and the next one will be posted on our Godly Living page. You can go to our resources at the top and go down to Godly Living and find other resources that deal with that.

So we hope to see you at the second part of this where they’re going to get into a lot of other things about anger and what to do with it. And I can’t even explain it myself because I’m not a counselor, so I’m not going to try to describe what they’re going to talk about, but you don’t want to miss it. So thank you for coming.

Jamie >> Thank you.

Heather >> Thank you.