Today the leaders of Israel, Russia, and Hamas all stand accused of war crimes. Yet it seems doubtful that these men will ever face justice – so what’s the point of international law?

For 30 years, Kenneth Roth was the director of Human Rights Watch. In that time, his organisation exposed hundreds of human rights abuses and pressured governments to cease committing them.

On Downstream, Kenneth Roth told Ash Sarkar how human rights law actually works on the ground, and how exposure, shame, and the shaping of public opinion are essential tools for this work.

He also discusses his young life as a child of a refugee from Nazi Germany, how democracies are responding to mass migration, and the age-old question of whether political violence can be legally or morally justified.