In this special Q&A episode, DiS founder Sean Adams explores the uncomfortable truths about streaming economics, social media burnout, and why the music industry's success metrics are fundamentally broken.

From debunking the myth that millions of streams equal financial stability to reframing social media as an extension of artistic practice, Sean answers your questions and offers practical wisdom for navigating an industry designed to exploit rather than support creators.

This episode strips away the glossy veneer of streaming success stories to reveal the harsh mathematical reality: an artist with 25 million streams over a decade might earn just £6,000 annually - less than minimum wage, before expenses. Sean explores why massive streaming numbers rarely translate to sustainable live audiences and how platforms like Spotify actively prevent artists from connecting with their own listeners.

Edited by: 

Josh Craggs at Dubble Audio

Chapters:

Key Takeaways:

Resources Mentioned:

Questions Answered:

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About the Host:

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What if the very thing that makes you feel like an outsider in the music industry could become your greatest business advantage? How do you build something meaningful when you're convinced you're not qualified? And why might starting before you feel "ready" be the secret to creating lasting change?

This week, Sean talks with Isobel Anderson - founder of Girls Twiddling Knobs, one of music tech's most important feminist voices. Following on from the Mary Spender episode about converting online reach into sustainable income, this conversation explores a different path: how small, mission-driven businesses can create industry change without needing massive audiences.

From a PhD in Sonic Arts to over 25 million Spotify streams to building Girls Twiddling Knobs into one of music tech's most important feminist voices, reaching thousands of women through courses, community, and her acclaimed podcast, Isobel's journey proves that feeling like an imposter might actually be your qualification.

In essence, this episode is about turning industry frustrations into business opportunities, why multiple revenue streams are now reality for musicians, and how to value your work when the world expects creativity for free.

Edited by: 

Josh Craggs at Dubble Audio

Chapters:

00:00 – Sean's Introduction: Building Your Independent Music Business

Continue the Conversation:

Guest Links:

Referenced in Episode:

About the Host:

Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound and manages artists including Charlotte Church and The Anchoress. Beyond founding one of the original music blogs, he's worked with BBC 6 Music and co-produced political podcast The Trawl. Through the DiS podcast, he maps the future of music by exploring culture, politics, and the systems shaping how we create and consume music.

Note: This conversation originally took place a couple of years ago but feels more relevant than ever as musicians navigate the realities of building sustainable, independent careers. If this episode sparks any business ideas, we'd love to hear about them in three years' time.

While most music industry coverage focuses on (poly)crisis and collapse, Mary Spender argues we're living through the greatest era for independent artists in history.

But, but but... what about streaming economics, venue closures, and platform dependence? Don't worry, we get into it.

With over 100 million YouTube views, 34,000 newsletter subscribers, and significant album sales achieved before releasing a single track to streaming, Mary demonstrates there are viable alternatives to industry doom-spiralling.

In this conversation, she reveals her strategies for converting YouTube viewers into album buyers, why artists need to think like entrepreneurs, and what she'd build with Spotify's $400 million Joe Rogan budget.

Sean also asks her about her recent video about why artists should embrace YouTube. Speaking of which, you will be able to see clips from this interview over on Drowned in Sound's YouTube: youtube.com/@DrownedinSound

Edited by: 

Josh Craggs at Dubble Audio

Timestamps

00:00 Sean's Intro

03:21 What will music be like in 2050?

06:25 Why artists should think like entrepreneurs

12:45 What does the future hold for independent artists?

16:56 The 1000 true fan theory

18:51 Should YouTube be the #1 platform for musicians?

24:36 Researching with an open mind. A rare skillset?

29:45 How to convert an audience from YouTube

34:17 What can the UK government do for music?

36:35 How would Mary spend the $400 million Spotify paid Joe Rogan?

38:39 Is long-form content on the return?

43:29 Sean's Outro

Quotable Moments

Continue the Conversation📧 Email [email protected] with your questions for future episodes🌐 Join the Drowned in Sound Community📰 Subscribe to the Drowned in Sound newsletter

Guest Links

Referenced in Episode

About the Host: Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound (est. 2000), manages artists including Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, and has worked with BBC 6 Music. Through this podcast, he maps the future of music by exploring culture, politics, and the systems shaping how we create and consume music. At its peak, Drowned in Sound had over 3 million readers. Stay tuned for details about its 25th anniversary celebrations.

What does it feel like to attend Glastonbury for the first time?

Music journalist Emma Wilkes brings us along for her debut pilgrimage to the UK's landmark musical gathering. She spins us a sonic diary with interviews from Terminal 1 and Laima Layton, along with reactions to some of the politically charged moments of the festival (shouts to Amyl and the Sniffers).

Along the way, there are vox pops with strangers, overlooked corners, and moments that slipped under the mainstream radar…

Edited by: 

Josh Craggs at Dubble Audio

Chapters: 

00:00 Introduction

01:51 Pre-festival preparation with Emma Wilkes

03:26 Attendees' expectations of Glastonbury 2025

04:22 First impressions and Thursday observations

06:19 Terminal 1 and an interview with Laima Layton

18:32 The sounds of Worthy Farm

19:12 How does the real-life festival compare to the coverage seen previously?

21:45 The political moments of Glastonbury 2025

30:42 The journey home, the Tuesday after, and a summary from a slightly raspy Emma

34:11 Expectations vs. reality with the people of the festival

Mentioned in the episode:

Laima Layton

In Place Of War

GRRRL

Terminal 1

Amyl and the Sniffers

JADE

Seun Kuti

Maruja

Lambrini Girls

How do you build genuine community when algorithms reward viral moments over real connection? What if sustainable music careers start with just five super fans rather than chasing millions of followers?

Drowned in Sound founder & artist manager Sean Adams speaks with Nikki Camilleri - music strategist, Forbes 30 Under 30 honoree, and founder of mana - about the ground-level realities of building a music career in 2025.

From growing up in Malta and navigating geographic disadvantage to working with breakthrough artists like Cat Burns, Nikki breaks down what actually works in today's oversaturated landscape.

This conversation digs deep into authentic community-building versus audience accumulation, the "five super fans" principle that challenges conventional wisdom, and why most artist advice around social media is fundamentally broken.

Plus: Nikki's vision for fixing music industry infrastructure by 2050, including transparency tools and direct fan connection platforms that don't rely on algorithmic gatekeepers.

"You need five super fans to start getting going - that's equal to about 250 passive fans. When you start looking at it that way, it doesn't seem as daunting."

— Nikki Camilleri on why quality beats quantity in fan building

Edited by: 

Josh Craggs at Dubble Audio

Episode Timestamps:

Mentioned in the episode:

Nikki Camilleri

ROSTR

Royal Society of Arts

Volt.fm

Kat Abu

The Anchoress

Kevin Kelly on 1000 True Fans

Join the conversation: Drowned in Sound Community

Email [email protected]

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What does it mean to “metabolize” emotion through music? Do wellness tools actually work better when paired with your favourite artist? Why does the music industry treat artists like products and not caregivers?

Drowned in Sound founder Sean Adams is joined by Ariana Alexander-Sefre, co-founder of the mental health app SPOKE⁠, to talk about the future of therapy and how music can play a pivotal role in that. The conversation explores the science behind sound, the emotional toll on musicians, and why music should be taken seriously as a public health tool.

Spoke has worked with over 100 artists, training them in techniques like CBT and mindfulness to embed into lyrics and melodies - and the results are changing lives.

Edited by: 

Josh Craggs at Dubble Audio

Episode chapters:

0:00 - 2:45 - Introduction

2:46 - 4:55  What would Ariana hope music to be like in 2050?

4:56 - 7:46 Using music to “metabolize” emotions

7:47 - 11:50 Who are SPOKE and who is Ariana Alexandre-Sefre

11:51 - 13:42 The relationship between music and mental health

13:43 -  20:28 Inside the SPOKE app - embedding music with culture with therapy

20:29 - 31:18 Why the music industry needs a fresh perspective on artist value

31:19 - 37:08 The science behind functional music and mindfulness

38:09 - 40:04 The real-world impact of therapy delivered through music

40:05 - 48:08 Can artists become a recognised part of healthcare?

48:09 - 54:13 - Closing thoughts from Sean

Mentioned in the episode:

Music Minds Matter

Can Music Make You Sick? (Sally Anne Gross)

Mood Machine: The Rise of Spotify and the Cost of the Perfect Playlist (Liz Pelly)

Endel

Join the conversation: Drowned in Sound Community

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What does a melting glacier sound like? Can a rainforest sing? And what happens when the last bird of its species hears a recording and tries to reply?

In this special live edition of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, recorded at Tallinn Music Week, host Sean Adams moderates a powerful conversation on music, ecology, and collective action. Joined by artists and innovators from the EarthSonic project, the panel explores how field recordings, plant biofeedback, and immersive sound can shift our understanding of the planet — and why that emotional shift matters.

From Brazil’s disappearing biodiversity to sound fossils in the Swiss Alps, this episode weaves together music, activism, and indigenous wisdom in an urgent yet hopeful conversation about art’s role in averting climate collapse.

Plus Ruth from In Place of War reveals their new project with Bicep in Greenland that launches in summer 2025.

Featured Guests & Projects:

• ⁠Natural Symphony (Joey Dean)⁠

Episode Highlights & Timestamps:

• 03:00 – Ruth Daniel on the origins of In Place of War and EarthSonic

Mentioned in the Episode:

• "The Last Scream" new release

• EarthSonic panel replay via the TMW.EE website

Join the Conversation:

• Drowned in Sound Community

What did the future sound like when the synthesizer first arrived? What does it feel like now, with AI looming and immersive audio spaces on the rise?

In this special episode of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, recorded at Tallinn Music Week, Sean Adams speaks with Martyn Ware — founder of The Human League and Heaven 17, producer for acts ranging from Tina Turner to Erasure, and creator of some of the UK’s most ambitious sound installations.

This is a conversation about optimism and dystopia, about punk and purpose, and about how DIY culture in Sheffield shaped a career that’s still future-facing today.

Martyn also reflects on his podcast Electronically Yours, the legacy of sound, and how creative freedom can reshape confidence, community, and cultural memory.

Timestamps & Topics:

• 01:32 – Synths, Sheffield, and starting out

Further Listening & Resources:

• 🎙️ Electronically Yours podcast

Stay Connected:

• 🗣 Drowned in Sound Community

About the Guest:

Martyn Ware is a pioneering British musician, producer, and sound artist. As a founding member of The Human League and Heaven 17, and co-founder of British Electric Foundation, he helped define the sound of synth-pop while pushing boundaries in spatial audio, immersive installations, and political music-making. He also hosts the acclaimed podcast Electronically Yours.

About the Host:

Sean Adams turned his passion for music into Drowned in Sound, a UK-based music platform that launched in 2000. He also manages artists like Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, and works across strategic communications in the music and creative sectors.

What's it like to be an artist right now? And what does the future of music look like? Will it be AI-generated slop or a joyful return to community and creativity?

In this episode of the Drowned in Sound Podcast, Sean Adams speaks to Becky Hawley from the art-pop trio Stealing Sheep.

From the launch of their new label G-IRL (Girl In Real Life) to their reflections on DIY culture, Liverpool’s music scene, and 15 years of creative evolution, this episode is full of inspiring insights about building something real in a digital world. Expect discussion of Daft Punk, community over algorithms, mechanical bulls, offline joy, and what it really means to be a band in 2025.

📌 Key Timestamps:

• 00:00 – Intro & New Album Campaign

Links

• New Single “Let’s Go”

Join the Conversation:

• 🗣 Drowned in Sound Community

About the Guest:

Becky Hawley is one-third of Stealing Sheep, a Liverpool-based band known for their innovative, genre-defying sound. The trio recently launched their own record label, G-IRL (Girl In Real Life), to support their own work and that of other boundary-pushing creatives.

About the Host:

Sean Adams is the founder of Drowned in Sound, a pioneering music webzine launched in 2000. He also manages artists like Charlotte Church and The Anchoress, and works across campaigns that support independent and ethical approaches to music and media.

A conversation about Fresh Hell, subcultures in nature, and shifting the climate narrative through creativity.

In this episode of the podcast that maps what music will be like in 2050 by meeting cultural changemakers and pioneers, Sean Adams explores how the Fresh Hell zine - a collaboration between creatives from the agency Iris and Purpose Disruptors (download it here) - reframes our relationship with nature through goth culture, beauty, and imagination.

Featuring clips from Freya Beer’s special Gothic Disco radio broadcast recorded at Walthamstow Wetlands (listen to it on Mixcloud here), featuring reflections from Lira Valencia and Chris Packham, which inspired the zine, we explore what happens when goth culture meets the natural world.

This conversation with Purpose Disruptors who run the Agency for Nature & the creators of Fresh Hell zine, examines how creativity can help us move from awe of the natural world to cultural transformation—and what musicians, media, and fans can do to help shift the climate crisis narrative.

Aimee Brewerton – Comms & Engagement Manager at Purpose Disruptors, working across climate-focused storytelling, brand strategy, and cultural transformation.

Nicole Vanner – Designer at Iris, co-creator of Fresh Hell, blending gothic subculture with natural aesthetics in visual communication.

Andrew Hadley – Copywriter at Iris, co-author of Fresh Hell, exploring language that rewilds desire and reframes our connection to nature.

Purpose Disruptors – A UK-based network of 5,000+ creative professionals transforming the advertising industry to align with climate goals and societal well-being.

Iris – A global creative agency known for working with progressive brands and championing purpose-driven campaigns.

Agency for Nature – A project platform by Purpose Disruptors that reimagines communications through a regenerative, nature-first lens — including campaigns like Fresh Hell.

Episode Summary & Timestamps:

• 00:00 Introduction: Can Music Change the Climate Conversation?

Featured Links & Resources:

• Fresh Hell Zine

Songs Mentioned:

• Something to Remember Me By – The Horrors

Join the Conversation:

• Drowned in Sound Community

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