Kelly Arabie

Debbie Swindoll

What does effective discipleship entail? What can we do in our churches to become more successful disciple-makers? How can we as individuals do a better job of discipling others?

Debbie Swindoll joined BOW Ministry Team Member Kelly Arabie to discuss this important topic. Debbie calls us to dive into community if we want to grow as disciples of Jesus. What does that look like? Debbie provides practical and insightful answers to guide us to effective discipleship.

You can watch this episode if you prefer.

Don’t miss the other discipleship video that Debbie did for BOW, Re-imagining Discipleship: A Spiritual Formation Perspective. It is part of a series that you won’t want to miss if you are involved in making decisions about discipleship or if you disciple others. Other podcasts in the Re-imagining Discipleship series: A Theological Perspective, A Church Leader Perspective, A Missions Perspective, and A Kingdom Perspective, and Reclaiming the Fear of the Lord.

Receive a free sample of Debbie’s spiritual formation curriculum Life with God

00:24 Introductions

Kelly >> Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women podcast. My name is Kelly Arabie. I’m one of the team members here at Beyond Ordinary Women, and today we are talking with Debbie Swindoll of Grafted Life Ministries. Along with her husband Kurt, Debbie founded Grafted Life and serves as the Executive Director and the director of Church Formation. Debbie graduated with a Masters in Spiritual Formation and Soul Care from the Institute of Spiritual Formation at Talbot Seminary and Biola University.

Debbie also serves as the Spiritual Formation Pastor at her church, Journey Community Church. Debbie, welcome. We are so happy to have you.

Debbie >> Thank you. It’s a long thing there. I’m getting older. I’m old now.

Kelly >> No.

Debbie previously spoke with Kay about Reimagining Discipleship. And so I want to encourage our listeners to go ahead (and we’ll talk about that more at the end) but listen to that video as well. That will give you an introduction to our topic today. Today we are talking about effective discipleship.

Deb, why don’t you start with telling us a little bit about the Ministry of Grafted Life.

Debbie >> Well, we started Grafted Life in 2010 and it was a bunch of colleagues of mine that had degrees in spiritual formation, which is kind of another word for discipleship, or how people grow, how we’re formed as Christians.

And we really had heart for the church. We’d gone to this graduate program and we’d experienced a lot of life change and we’d seen people change significantly. And yet we knew that everybody can’t go to a graduate program. Everybody can’t go to seminary. And so what, what could we bring back to the church that would maybe be more effective, more meaningful, more transformational for people in their lives and in their growth, in their spiritual growth. So we started really praying into that and thinking about it.

We ended up developing some curricula and also starting an association for spiritual directors that could really serve people in the church and come alongside them in their spiritual growth.

Kelly >> So as today we’re talking about effective discipleship, what in your definition is effective?

Debbie >> Okay, that’s a really good question because I’m not sure when we think about discipleship, we always think about effective.

You know, if you just look up in the dictionary, what is effective, it is being successful in producing a desired or intended result. I think often when it comes to discipleship, people go, well, what is it really? Look, what are we going for? What’s the end result that we’re really going for?

And that’s really hard to define. You know, I think it’s easy to grow our churches because when it’s just numbers, we can count that we can count it and say, “Oh, well, we had 500 people last Sunday and then a year later, you know, we have 650 or whatever.” The numerical numbers or the amount that people give, it’s really easy to quantify that.

But what is it that we’re looking for when we talk about this spiritual growth thing, this discipleship thing? And that is very important when you’re talking about, well, what kind of methods are you going to use to get there because the methods actually have to suit the end that you’re going for.

So in just thinking about that, I think a lot of times in the church and in my own experience, that’s been a behavioral thing. You know, we want people to behave.

I remember raising kids and in my early years, it’s like I just want them to behave, you know, so I want them, I mean, I think I wanted them to know Jesus. But I think if I was really honest with myself, I just wanted them to behave. I didn’t want them to be an embarrassment.

And I wanted them to grow up and be good people and their life to be lived in a lane. I don’t know if that relates to you as a parent or not, but it’s like, yeah, it’s like you just you want them to be good people. And most of the time, we look at that from just our outward actions of conformity to some idea of what it means for us to be a good person. And so that’s kind of an interesting thing to look at.

I was looking at what Scripture talks about as the Fruit of the Spirit. And in Galatians 5 it’s a really interesting list. It’s love, joy, peace, kindness, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Now self-control may look like a behavior. We may have some idea of a behavior in our head, but most of these other things are like postures of our heart.

It’s like something about our heart, like who we are as a person. What motivates us? What is the thing that drives our behavior, but not the behaviors themselves? That’s kind of the core of that. That’s really interesting.

And I think that if we were really going to say, you know, what’s the end of discipleship, many people would say it’s conformity to the image of Christ or it’s having the character of Christ. That looks like that to me when I look at that list.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> The fruit of the spirit, that’s the heart of Christ. How do we develop that? How does that become our end and so that’s something to think about.

I think anybody that’s listening to this podcast, it would be good to pause and just think about what do I see as the end? What is it that I’m looking for in my own life?

What is it that I’m looking for in the lives of those I serve? And to really think about that because what you choose to get there, it matters what that end goal is.

Kelly >> Yeah.

All those things you just mentioned are relational words or happen in the context of relationship.

Debbie >> They do, which again makes it very interesting because not many of the means that we use today in the church are kind of behavioral means.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> I remember a time in my Christian life where it was like—I go to church or I would be in a Bible study and my list of to do’s would just keep growing. You know, of the things that I needed to do or ways that I needed to change my behavior or even in the sense of loving.

It was like, well, what does it look like to love? What are the behaviors I need to do in order to love? It may not have made that much of a difference internally for me as far as like what was actually motivating me. But on the outside I looked good. You know, I’m like, I’m controlling the response I really want to have toward what that person just did.

But that’s the loving thing to do. Or I’m not being honest with the person because I’m fearing some kind of reaction when actually honesty might have been the loving thing to do.

So I think that there’s a when it comes to being effective, we need to decide what it is that we’re going for. Now, I have an opinion about that.

Kelly >> Tell us.

Debbie >> What a surprise! Yeah, I think that it is that the end of discipleship is and is living a life out of your internal being from these places of love and joy and peace and kindness and all of this. That this is something, and I do think that that comes from people, not necessarily principles. I think it’s being connected with people that there’s really a people component, a relational component.

And to the degree that God is a person, too, he’s intimately involved in all of that. But there has to be this relational reorganization of our lives in order for us to really change because it’s not something we can sit at home and just make our list. Because even if we did, which is we just go out of our house and we interact with someone and then it would be over, you know, it’s like we need a personal connection with God, a personal connection with other people.

Yeah. Yeah. If you were as psychologist, you would call that we need attachment, we need attached relationships, bonded relationships with God and other people in order for real change to actually happen in our lives. Yeah.

Kelly >> So say a little bit more about that. How does that look in the church and if we’ve started defining the end goal, what are we shooting for? What does success look like?

Debbie >> Yeah, you know, there’s a lot more focus and literature and conversation about attachment, especially in younger generations. I think that young parents, current parents with children (you know, probably from babies to middle school) are having a lot more conversation about what is attachment, what value do relationships have in our lives than I did when I was a parent in the U.S.

You know, and this is a great benefit to us, especially as Christians because God made us to be relational creatures. He made us to be connected. And what we’re finding, just even scientifically, is this is the way our brains work. We’re formed a lot because of our relational connections. And in the end, our characters are really more about what do the people do that we love and we want to be like them.

So we’re motivated and our brain actually functions in this very relational place. When we make decisions like, well, I want to be like my people.

Kelly >> Right.

Debbie >> I want to be like the people that love me and that I love. And so that influences our choices more than just the ideas that we carry, or even necessarily the beliefs that we have, the principles that are our truth statements we have like a relational truth that is that drives our behavior quite significantly.

And so in this attached place, in this bonded and very secure place that we have with other people, I think there are several things that we can think about, like what does that look like? Like what does it even look like to be attached? What kind of relationships create this good, healthy kind of bonding for us? The first thing I’d say is that there are relationships where we’re seen and we’re known. You know, Brené Brown has done a lot of work on vulnerability and all of these things.

There’s so much it’s almost like buzzwords now—like was I seen in that, was I known in that?

But we at our core, we have this very deep desire for someone to see us for who we really are and to know us for who we really are. And when that happens to us (and it is incredible), it’s an incredible emotional experience. But it’s also like a brain experience, too. Like we experience joy, like when someone sees us and wants to be with us and knows us. We actually have a physical reaction to that, that lights us up.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> Yeah. And conversely, when we’re we feel dismissed or disregarded or, you know, we’ve all had those— “Oh, I was, you know, invisible.”

Kelly >> Yes.

Debbie >> Which just feels bad.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> Yeah. Because we’re not really created to be in isolation or to feel disregarded. God sees us and knows us.

And so I think the challenge becomes, first of all, how do we experience being seen and known by God? And how do we create communities of people in the church that are willing to see and know one another and to be seen?

Kelly >> Yeah, which is the question that comes to my mind is—how is all of that that you’ve just described accomplished in the local church?

Debbie >> It’s hard work I mean, it’s not as simple as I just read this Bible verse and now I’m going to go do it.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> We have to bring something very personal to the table. We bring our own fears, our own experiences of being disregarded. Are sometimes our hopes and also this deep vulnerability that if somebody sees me for who I really am, will they really like me? Will they still accept me? Will they love me? Will I be rejected?

And we have experiences where that’s happened to us before.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> Where we’ve said the thing that was really true and we were told, you know, we were shamed by that admittance, and so it’s risky.

We really need God in the middle of that for us. The crazy thing about God is for all of us—our fear of him. And you know that a lot of people carry these God images of, you know, of he’s kind of waiting around the corner to pounce on you. You know, you got to get your act together in order to come into his presence, you know, and all this stuff. It just cannot be true because he sees and knows us completely and yet still chooses to be with us. But that’s really hard, I think, for us to always take in.

Kelly >> Yeah. And our relationships don’t always give us that experience. I mean, I can remember growing up hearing how you view your relationships defines your relationship with God. You know, how you view your earthly father is how you view your heavenly father. Or when those relationships are lacking or leave a lot to be desired, then you think, okay, strike out. There’s no hope for me in a relationship with God if this is what my relationship, you know, with an earthly person looks like. How does that translate to my relationship with God?

Debbie >> Right. And if my parents who are human like me or my friends reject me, I mean, what are the odds that the Holy God is going to accept you and bring you in? You know, but isn’t this the essence of why we need Jesus?

Kelly >> Yes.

Debbie >> Jesus provides that way. Because now it isn’t about our marriage. It’s about his marriage.

And it allows God to be present with us in all of our messiness.

Kelly >> So what has that looked like? I mean, have you seen that done well in a local church or in a church setting? Things are really—I don’t know there’s a lot of disagreement in the world right now, and it’s difficult to love one another. And people have wildly varying opinions on a lot of different things in a church setting right now.

So practically speaking, what does it look like to be in relationship with one another in a way that’s loving and secure and attached? And that seems like a a hard process or a lengthy process.

Debbie >> It is a lengthy process. And you have to practice it. You have to be first of all, you have to be very conscious of it in the sense that you have to be intentional about creating those kinds of spaces. And we also have to be very intentional about moving into places with God that have felt scary before because in the end, it’s really God that’s going to hold us and community in this place because he’s the ultimate trustworthy one.

But we’re going to travel through all of our trust issues when we start doing this. We’re going to have to face places that hurt. We’re going to have to be present to that. And this is often where we get derailed because we just don’t want to feel that. We don’t want to feel our pain, and we don’t want to grieve things that have happened to us before.

We don’t even want to grieve. Maybe our images of God that have somehow kept us safe because we haven’t had to get too close.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> I do think it’s a really challenging time. I think that we have a lot of cultural habits of separating when it gets painful.

Kelly >> True.

Debbie >> And we’re not going to actually grow in community with one another until we can stay together when it gets painful and we can still lean into God when it feels uncomfortable.

Like if you’re going to grow your muscles, if you’re going to get in shape, if you’re going to move ahead physically, it’s going to be uncomfortable, it’s going to be painful. You’re going to have to press through. You’re going to have to do more than you thought you could do.

And it’s also true when it comes to relationships, like you’re going to have to get comfortable being uncomfortable for what is possible on the other side of that. Like being seen and known and creating environments where that can happen and trust can start to be built even though it may take time.

You’re going to have to face the uncomfortable of that and be willing to say, “Okay, for the sake of growth, I’m willing to go here.” Yeah.

So the second thing I’d talk about, you know, what does it look like to be in these kind of attached relationships? It’s it has a lot to do with our foundational identity.

You know, we operate a lot out of who we think we are and who we’ve been with other people. And the amazing thing about God is he gives us this identity of being the beloved. Like he loves us constantly. And nothing we can do will make that greater or make it less. We can’t change the constancy of God’s love for us.

And at our very identity, he says, you are the beloved and that changes so much for us. It is a huge concept. I don’t know how many people I’ve talked with in the church in just my life, friends in my spiritual direction work where it’s like they struggle to understand God’s love for them. Like this is a significant part of our spiritual journey.

Like, How much does God love me? What, what? What do I need to do to keep that love, you know? Or What can I do to mess that up to cause him to be disappointed, to move away from me to in some instances I would think, be ashamed of me.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> And and this is really a core thing about how we’re going to be in relationship with him.

Do we really trust that he loves us completely? And again, so much of this is influenced by the relationships we’ve had with other people where we feel we’ve disappointed them or we’ve been shamed by something that we’ve done. Is God like that? Does he really love us? When honestly, okay if we’re just really honest, it’s easier. It’s easier to keep God an idea than to make him that real, that we would have to be that vulnerable with him.

Kelly >> I mean, what you’re describing is very different from going to church, hearing a sermon, learning more truth, getting biblical principles, figuring out how they apply to my life.

You’re talking about something that’s really messy.

Debbie >> Yes. And personal.

Kelly >> Yes.

Debbie >> If I let if I wanted people to take away one word, it would be this word personal.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> That it is a personal journey. Discipleship is a personal journey. I love that. I’ve had the opportunity to watch the series The Chosen. I think it’s highlighted for me. And people have very, you know, opinions about it’s not strictly you know, it’s not every word from the Bible.

They’ve taken liberties to create that story. And, but what they’ve created is a personal encounter these were men and women that traveled with Jesus. They sat with him. They listened, and they were present with one another. It was very personal, and that’s what changes us is the personal encounters. I think a lot about this these days because I wonder if we’re not losing touch with what it means to be a person, to have personhood to engage face to face with other people, to connect in that way.

You know this.

Kelly >> Say more about that.

Debbie >> This doesn’t do it.

Kelly >> A phone. Yes.

Debbie >> Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is easy if you need to get a quick message to somebody. But this doesn’t build relationships.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> And this doesn’t build a relationship with God.

Kelly >> Yes.

Debbie >> It’s long conversations, quiet listening, being open to some kind of spiritual experience where you’re impressed with the heart of Jesus. But long gazes. I mean, one of the things that we know about how people connect with one another and how we actually are formed is through actual eye contact, like long gazes with somebody else.

Like, there’s stuff that happens in our brains that, you know, our right eyes connect and we can actually think the same thing at the same time, you know, through that kind of encounter.

Kelly >> There’s an intensity there. I mean, I remember reading books when my kids were little about that attachment and sometimes that’s a very intense process. And, you know, when there’s neurodiversity, a person can’t look you in the eye.

Debbie >> Yes.

Kelly >> So I love that. I think thanks for bringing that out. I think that.

Debbie >> Yeah. And I think that there is a spiritual experience that we can have with the face of God, you know, may his face shine upon you. You know, maybe there’s lots of things in the Old Testament about God’s gaze being on us in a way that is connecting. Like what? What is it? What does it mean, you know, to look in the face of Jesus and to follow him in that kind of way? What kind of look is he giving back? Is it one of love? Is it one of I’m happy to be with you? Is it one of joy?

You know we’re recording this in the season of Advent. And I think that’s significant because when the angels come to the shepherds, they say, “We bring you good tidings of great joy for unto you is born a savior in the city of David.”

The joy was that God was present and God had come in a way to look them in the eye to be present with them. And that is a cause of great joy. That is relational joy. God wants to be with you. He’s happy to be with you. And this is tidings of great joy.

And that is just as true today. He’s happy to be with us. We are his beloved. Our very identities are grounded in his incredible great love for us. And that is really one of the cores of attachment.

So the last thing I would say about it is that because God put us in a family, he didn’t just say, “Oh, you and I are going to have a relationship.”

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> That we’re going to have a relationship, but we’re also going to have a church. We’re going to have a body. We’re going to have a community that establishes you as a person. And there’s lots of scripture about that. In that body we grow. It’s not just as an individual, but in the body we’re actually growing up together. So we’re connected in community through the Spirit’s work. And God provides the basis for our group identity because we don’t get our identity and our attachment and our growth from just God alone, but also the people of God who come along beside us. And that’s where it gets a little dicier because . . .

Kelly >> I’ve heard you say we don’t come with a clean, relational story.

Debbie >> We all wound each other. We all wound each other. And this is why we have to be committed to creating the healthiest relationships we can in the body, creating safe spaces.

There are three words that are kind of the three S’s that are kind of synonymous with attachment: You need to be seen. You need to be safe, and to be able to be soothed when you’re hurting.

So you need people that are glad to be with you in all your states. When you’re happy, when you’re sad, when you’re hurting, when you’ve messed up, they take you back and sit with you. They talk through it with you. They help you find your true identity again.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> This is the people that we are. We’re the people loved by God who are loving him back in the way we want to be like him because he is the ultimate place where we learn love and joy and peace and comfort and kindness. He demonstrates all of that to us through his heart.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> Yeah. And so he is our ultimate connected place, but it is personal we have to be personal with him and with one another.

It’s like our greatest hope and our greatest fear.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> And that’s why it becomes a hard place. How does an interesting word it’s huh? Yeah. It just feels pinchy at times.

Kelly >> Yeah.

I have so many more questions about what this looks like in the local church, what this feels like. And I know you’ve had a lot of experience. I’m glad we’re going to have more conversations ahead of us because a lot of the things that you’re bringing up, you know, I’m thinking some. Yeah, but? And how does this practically look?

But I know that you have coauthored a bunch of studies. You have had a passion for this. And actually, I think you’ve actually seen it happen in your own life and in your church.

Debbie >> And I hear testimonies from many people. And so we did create a curriculum. The name is Life with God. It really comes alongside in this place and really holds people in these relational encounters and helps them to grow very incremental early because it is a process that takes time. You’re not just going to show up in a group and one day and just like blurt out your whole life.

Kelly >> Thank goodness.

Debbie >> It takes time to develop trust. It takes time to learn how to love each other well and to understand how God’s in the midst of that holding us all. So we’d love, if people are interested, we would love to give them a free sample of that. So they can get that off of our website.

Kelly >> Yes. If you go to GraftedLife.org, and click on “Life with God” tab at the bottom. It will show you “request a free sample.”

So I know that, Debbie, you and your organization made a lot of the material from your first study, The Genesis of Relationship, available to people interested in that.

Debbie >> Yeah.

And you know at Grafted Life we’d love to talk with them about how they could start on that journey because we have thought significantly about, well, iif this is going to be a relational journey, what does that really look like? Yeah. And you know, I think even just ending this time, I think even as people enjoy Advent this year, just to think about that, God came to be present, you know, Emmanuel.

But think about that personally. Like he came to be personal with me.

Kelly >> Yeah.

Debbie >> And he finds great joy in that encounter.

Kelly >> Yes.

Debbie >> Yeah.

Kelly >> Well, would you close our time together by praying for us and our audience?

Debbie >> I would love to.

Lord. I think one of the great things about everlasting life and the life part is so important is that you invite us to come into relationship with you that lasts forever.

I think one of the griefs we experience here on Earth is when people that we love die and we lose relationship. And your invitation to relationship is one that will never end. It is an everlasting connection. And it’s wonderful that here, while we’re still experiencing some separation from you in that very physical, personal way, you still give us this wonderful chance to be connected with you in in our spiritual being and in our depth and you even say, I’ll come live inside you, I’ll be so present, I will be internal. So Lord, for all those that are listening, I ask that there would be a little awakening to the possibility that a life with you, a personal connection with you, a deeper awareness and as Jesus said abiding experience could be really life changing.

And it could affect their community interactions and really the way they end up making decisions in the end, because they’re connected in a way that they just want to be like you, like you’re the best relationship they have. And they just long to be more like you. Thanks for this time, Lord, and may you bless all of those that are listening with a deeper experience of you.

I ask this in Jesus name, amen.

Kelly >> Thank you.

Debbie >> You’re welcome. Thanks for having me.

Kelly >> Yeah.

I’m glad we’re going to have more conversations. And just for those who are listening, we do have a lot of resources on the Beyond Ordinary Women website, BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. You can find Debbie’s earlier podcast with Kay Daigle. And again, if you’re interested in Grafted Life, a sample of the study Life with God, go to GraftedLife.org and click on “Life with God” and request a free sample.

OK.

I’m so glad to be with you today, and we look forward to next time.