Episode 21 features the continuation of a conversation with Sam Lacy, a lawyer and one of the authors of the lay lead presentment against Bishop Stewart Ruch. While combining two interviews from 2025 recorded before the Ruch presentment trial verdict was announced, this episode offers more reflection on Ruch's actions, Sam's extended thoughts on the challenges involved in attempting to address abuse within the Church, and how the film A Hidden Life has been an inspiration to him through this whole process. Finally, Chris gives his own reflection on the Mad Max film series and how it relates to local pastors who may be hesitant to speak up about abuse in our churches.

You can read a transcript of this episode here.