Gemma dashes in straight from the woods—muddy boots, leaf-tangled hair—and Lewis hits record for a rapid-fire chat on how democratic play actually works in real life 🌱. Kicking off with Peter Gray’s latest Psychology Today essays, they unpack why true democracy boils down to “freedom + responsibility” and why unstructured, child-led play is the only arena that consistently teaches it. From there they wrestle with messy realities: power-imbalanced games, mixed-age clashes and the fine line between helpful facilitation and adult dictatorship 👀.

The duo contrast Gray’s ideals with Vivian Gussin Paley’s rule-changing manifesto You Can’t Say You Can’t Play, where one kindergarten class bans exclusion altogether. Does forced inclusion stifle imaginative flow—or give perpetual outsiders a lifeline? Gemma recalls war-play stand-offs in her own childhood, while Lewis ponders risk-bias: educators often panic faster over name-calling than a one-metre fall off a log.

Hunter-gatherer research, playground football hierarchies and the ethics of integrating children with diverse developmental needs all surface as they explore how “the game is keeping the game going.” They finish by teasing future deep-dives (hello, book club!) and reminding listeners to share thoughts inside the Forest School Podcast Community group.

Key Topics & Timestamps
00:07 – 02:50 Bare-foot dash & tonight’s theme intro
02:50 – 07:45 Peter Gray: play as democracy (freedom + responsibility)
07:45 – 11:45 When inclusive ideals meet steam-roller play
11:45 – 16:00 School rules vs real equality; kind dictators 🤨
16:00 – 20:45 Mixed-age dynamics & “least-able has right-of-way” analogy
20:45 – 25:05 Gemma’s childhood “play-war” & emotional vs physical risk
25:05 – 30:45 📚 Vivian Gussin Paley’s You Can’t Say You Can’t Play—who’s sadder?
30:45 – 33:30 Integrating differing abilities without killing the fun
33:30 – 36:15 Why modelling matters (& maybe needs a book!)
36:15 – 37:50 Next steps: book-review episode, share your stories
37:50 – 41:30 Upcoming CPD: storytelling, outdoor cooking, whittling + April Level 3

Links & Resources

• Peter Gray articles – Psychology Today

• Vivian Gussin Paley – You Can’t Say You Can’t Play

• Join the chat → Facebook: Forest School Podcast Community

• Training dates → https://theforestschoolpodcast.com/training

Which side of the “You can’t say…” debate are you on—and how do you handle persistent playground exclusion? Drop your thoughts in the community group!