In this episode, Jay sits down with Dr. Todd Conklin for a deep dive into his newest book, The Stability Trap: How Safe and Stable Organizations Still Find Ways to Fail and What To Do About This Problem. Together, they break down why even the most mature, stable safety systems are far more fragile than they appear—and how organizations unintentionally squeeze out the very capacity they rely on to prevent failure.

Todd shares how a conversation with David Woods sparked the initial idea, how the economy and pressure for shareholder value are influencing safety margins, and why organizations must rethink what “stability” actually means. They also explore how AI unexpectedly shaped the book’s ending, why AI won’t replace safety professionals, and how tools like NotebookLM can reorganize our thinking and reveal blind spots we didn’t know we had.

The two dive into the pitfalls of “Drive to Zero,” middle-management pressure, worker complacency narratives, brittle systems, pandemic lessons, wearables, and the paradox of calling a safety program “mature.” If you’re in safety, operations, leadership, or you simply care about how real work gets done, this conversation offers a rare behind-the-scenes look at where the field is heading next.

A thoughtful, honest, and wide-ranging conversation you won’t want to miss.

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