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Ep42 - Interview with Denise Shull
Episode Summary
In this conversation, Dan sits down with performance coach and former trader Denise Shull, author of Market Mind Games and the real-life inspiration for Wendy Rhoades on Billions. Denise explains why the old mantra “take the emotion out of trading” is scientifically wrong—and how learning to work with your emotions, instead of against them, can dramatically improve your decision-making. From intuition and regret to boredom, ADHD and market regime changes, this episode redefines what it means to be a “disciplined” trader.
In This Episode, You’ll Discover:
How modern neuroscience shows that perception is prediction—and that your brain is constantly asking, “Is this good or bad for me?” before you ever place a trade.
The difference between “integral” emotions (about the trade and market) and “incidental” emotions (about you, your P&L, identity and history), and why separating the two is a core trading edge.
Why true intuition is unconscious pattern recognition built from experience (like a chef knowing a steak is done by sight) and when “I feel good about this trade” is useful versus dangerous.
Denise’s 1–7 conviction/emotion scale, how granular emotional language improves performance and how to consciously factor “how much do I really believe this?” into your trading process.
Why trying to “stay positive” can backfire, how unprocessed regret leads to trading slumps and how to use negative emotions to actually improve instead of burying them.
How recognizing fear of future regret and choosing your “flavor of regret” can help you avoid revenge trades, impulse trades and the handful of decisions that wreck your year.
Practical ways traders can keep boredom from morphing into overtrading—by defining time frames, having intentional breaks and non-trading activities, and challenging the myth that you must always be in the market.
How to think about market environments like different “genres of music,” why you don’t need to catch the exact top or bottom and how ego and the need to feel smart can sabotage regime shifts.
The simple but powerful question—“What am I feeling and why?”—and how regularly sorting feelings into “about me” vs. “about the market” aligns you with how the human brain actually works.
About Our Guest – Denise Shull
Denise Shull is a former CBOE floor trader turned performance coach specializing in decision-making under risk and uncertainty. She holds a master’s degree in neuropsychoanalysis from the University of Chicago, traded at firms like Schonfeld, and later ran a day trading desk during the internet boom. Her work shows how emotion and cognition are intertwined in every decision—a theme she explores in her book Market Mind Games, which helped inspire the Wendy Rhoades character on Showtime’s Billions. Today, she coaches hedge fund managers, traders, and elite athletes around the world on how to use emotions and intuition as a competitive edge.
Disclosure:
Options involve risk and are not suitable for all investors. Prior to buying or selling an option, investors must read Characteristics and Risks of Standardized Options (ODD) which can be found at https://www.theocc.com/company-information/documents-and-archives/options-disclosure-document
Don’t trade with money you are not prepared to lose. Anything discussed on this show is intended to be generalized information and not intended to be a recommendation to buy or sell any security. The host and guests are not familiar with listeners’ specific situations. For trading information relevant to your specific needs, speak with a licensed broker or advisor.
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By Wealth Building With Options
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Episode Summary
In this conversation, Dan sits down with performance coach and former trader Denise Shull, author of Market Mind Games and the real-life inspiration for Wendy Rhoades on Billions. Denise explains why the old mantra “take the emotion out of trading” is scientifically wrong—and how learning to work with your emotions, instead of against them, can dramatically improve your decision-making. From intuition and regret to boredom, ADHD and market regime changes, this episode redefines what it means to be a “disciplined” trader.
In This Episode, You’ll Discover:
How modern neuroscience shows that perception is prediction—and that your brain is constantly asking, “Is this good or bad for me?” before you ever place a trade.
The difference between “integral” emotions (about the trade and market) and “incidental” emotions (about you, your P&L, identity and history), and why separating the two is a core trading edge.
Why true intuition is unconscious pattern recognition built from experience (like a chef knowing a steak is done by sight) and when “I feel good about this trade” is useful versus dangerous.
Denise’s 1–7 conviction/emotion scale, how granular emotional language improves performance and how to consciously factor “how much do I really believe this?” into your trading process.
Why trying to “stay positive” can backfire, how unprocessed regret leads to trading slumps and how to use negative emotions to actually improve instead of burying them.
How recognizing fear of future regret and choosing your “flavor of regret” can help you avoid revenge trades, impulse trades and the handful of decisions that wreck your year.
Practical ways traders can keep boredom from morphing into overtrading—by defining time frames, having intentional breaks and non-trading activities, and challenging the myth that you must always be in the market.
How to think about market environments like different “genres of music,” why you don’t need to catch the exact top or bottom and how ego and the need to feel smart can sabotage regime shifts.
The simple but powerful question—“What am I feeling and why?”—and how regularly sorting feelings into “about me” vs. “about the market” aligns you with how the human brain actually works.
About Our Guest – Denise Shull
Denise Shull is a former CBOE floor trader turned performance coach specializing in decision-making under risk and uncertainty. She holds a master’s degree in neuropsychoanalysis from the University of Chicago, traded at firms like Schonfeld, and later ran a day trading desk during the internet boom. Her work shows how emotion and cognition are intertwined in every decision—a theme she explores in her book Market Mind Games, which helped inspire the Wendy Rhoades character on Showtime’s Billions. Today, she coaches hedge fund managers, traders, and elite athletes around the world on how to use emotions and intuition as a competitive edge.
Disclosure:
Options involve risk and are not suitable for all investors. Prior to buying or selling an option, investors must read Characteristics and Risks of Standardized Options (ODD) which can be found at https://www.theocc.com/company-information/documents-and-archives/options-disclosure-document
Don’t trade with money you are not prepared to lose. Anything discussed on this show is intended to be generalized information and not intended to be a recommendation to buy or sell any security. The host and guests are not familiar with listeners’ specific situations. For trading information relevant to your specific needs, speak with a licensed broker or advisor.
Trumpet
Trumpet Fanfare by bevibeldesign -- https://freesound.org/s/350428/ -- License: Creative Commons 0
Wah Wah Wah
Wah wah trumpet failed joke punch line.wav by Doctor_Jekyll -- https://freesound.org/s/240195/ -- License: Attribution 4.0
Dramatic Drum Roll
dramatic drum roll.wav by ingsey101 -- https://freesound.org/s/51401/
-- License: Attribution 3.0
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