Bill Doherty is an educator, researcher, therapist, speaker, author, consultant, and community organizer. In this episode, he recounts with Eli his experience in the Catholic church and how circumstances including “failed celibacy” led him to leave the priesthood. He shares how his extensive work doing community presentations led to years of interaction with judges and lawyers, eventually creating the discernment counseling model. Bill contemplates the positive directions the field is taking, and some of the necessary downsides including a crucial turning point of the field and an unexpected consequence of the relational, systemic approach. Eli asks a question that gives Bill goosebumps as he contemplates his boundary-pushing career. Finally, he shares a story about a small but significant detail his mom noticed during his appearance on Oprah.