The Systemic Way

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Dr Mairi Evans, Systemic Therapist, Social Worker and Clinical Director in the NHS, to explore autism, neurodivergence and the stories that shape how people are understood within families, services and wider society.

Drawing on her doctoral research with mothers of autistic girls, Mairi explores the “aha moments” that can emerge through the diagnostic journey, and what changes once a diagnosis is given. We discuss the history and social construction of autism, the limitations of stereotypical and gendered understandings, and the difference between observed autism and the lived experience of being autistic.

Mairi introduces the idea of “Oughtism” to explore the pressures placed on autistic people and their families to behave in particular ways. Through examples from family life, she considers how dominant ideas about what families “should” look like can create additional pressures, and how systemic therapists can help families develop their own ways of being together.

The conversation also explores the relationship between autism and ADHD, the limitations of linear ideas of the spectrum, the double bind created by diagnosis and service systems, and the importance of holding both neurodivergence and the wider family context in mind.

Throughout, Mairi brings together social constructionism, CMM and systemic thinking with a strong focus on lived experience. She argues for a shift away from seeing neurodivergence as specialist territory and towards making neuroinclusion “everybody’s business”.

We also consider what this might mean for systemic family therapy, including how curiosity, neuro-informed not-knowing, hypothesising and attention to family relationships can become part of everyday practice.

A conversation about diagnosis, language, family life, service design and the possibilities for a more neuroinclusive systemic practice.

Dr Mairi Evans is a Systemic Therapist and Social Worker with experience of working in social care, child and adolescent mental health, adult mental health, neurodevelopmental services and senior management in the NHS.  Mairi has a professional doctorate in systemic practice, in which she focused on the diagnostic experience of autism for the mothers of autistic girls. Taking a social constructionist perspective and adopting the Co-ordinated Management of Meaning as a lens Mairi has explored the balance and relationship between co-constructed narratives (stories told) and lived experience (stories lived) for autistic people, their families and helping professionals. She has worked to connect theory to practice across health and social care organisations in order to promote connections, improve services and to reduce barriers to healthcare for autistic people and their families.  

As a Clinical Director in the NHS, Mairi has an interest in stories for change in wider NHS systems and the relationship between research narratives, commissioning decision makers, service providers and the individuals that seek support.

Publications:

• Oughtism and Oughtistic Narratives in the Lives of Autistic People and their Families (gvsu.edu)
• Autism and Systemic Practice – Autism and Intersectionality: Implications for Systemic and Relational Psychotherapeutic Practice and Research (systemicautism.com)
• How do Mothers of Autistic Girls Perceive and Experience the Potential Affordances and Constraints of Diagnosis for their Daughters? (Thesis, University of Bedfordshire)
• The “Aha Moment”: Exploring autism narratives as told by the mothers of autistic girls (Murmurations: Journal of Transformative Systemic Practice) 

What happens when we stop asking, “Who is right?” and start asking, “What are we making here?”

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Abbie VanMeter from the CMM Institute and host of the wonderful podcast Stories Lived and Stories Told  for a wide-ranging and deeply engaging conversation about Coordinated Management of Meaning (CMM).

The conversation explores Abbie's personal and professional journey into Coordinated Management of Meaning (CMM), how she has come to embody the approach, and what CMM can offer systemic psychotherapy and everyday relationships.

Abbie’s journey into CMM is an unexpected one. What began with discovering CMM during the pandemic led to her creating Stories Lived and Stories Told, a podcast now in its fifth season, and to a much deeper exploration of how we create meaning with one another.

We talk about what CMM looks like beyond the theory. How does it change the way we listen, communicate and understand relationships? What happens when we begin to notice the meanings we are creating together in the moment?

The conversation takes us into some big questions about curiosity, uncertainty, power and expertise. We explore what it means for therapists to hold professional knowledge while also recognising the knowledge and expertise of the people they work with.

Abbie talks about curiosity as a “superpower” and the importance of “actually not knowing”. We consider what it means to meet people where they are, rather than assuming we need to bring them somewhere else.

We also explore the relationship between lived, told and untold stories. What might become possible when we recognise that there are stories that have not yet been heard, understood or given space?

Along the way, we talk about embodiment, improv, “yes and”, the LUUT Model, the complexity of CMM and the experience of learning a theory that becomes increasingly difficult to “unsee”.

This is not simply a conversation about learning CMM. It is a conversation about how we live it.

How we communicate.
How we make meaning.
How we relate to one another.
And ultimately, what kind of social worlds we are creating together.

This is Part One of a two-part conversation. In Part Two, Abbie turns the microphone on Julie and Sezer to explore their own journeys into systemic psychotherapy and the story behind The Systemic Way.

Link to Part two

https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=2466190&post_id=215273874&utm_source=podcast-email&play_audio=true&r=3e6jkh&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoyMDUyMTg0NDksInBvc3RfaWQiOjIxNTI3Mzg3NCwiaWF0IjoxNzg5NTMxMzMxLCJleHAiOjE3OTIxMjMzMzEsImlzcyI6InB1Yi0yNDY2MTkwIiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.l-mgXbg2Jf_S8uj4tXnySHyXnjkFoHVIiGgpGokdzTQ&utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email&utm_content=play_card#play

What happens when the systems designed to help us start shaping, limiting or even defining the problems we are trying to solve?

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we are joined by Mark Phillips, a highly experienced systemic psychotherapist, mental health nurse and strategic leader who has worked across NHS, local authority and youth justice services for more than two decades. Mark is currently Strategic Health Lead for Youth Justice Services and Head of Family Therapy at Coventry and Warwickshire NHS Trust, and also works as a consultant systemic psychotherapist and supervisor. He qualified as a systemic psychotherapist at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust in 2005. 

Together, we explore neoliberalism and its impact on systemic practice, mental health and public services. We talk about the growing emphasis on individual responsibility, productivity, measurement and outcomes, and what can be lost when complex relational and social difficulties are reduced to individual problems.

Mark shares reflections from his work in youth justice, CAMHS and local authority services, including the tensions between behavioural interventions and more contextual, relational approaches. We explore power, privilege, oppression, organisational culture, payment-by-results, professional identity and the politics of therapy.

We also consider what it means for systemic practitioners to become agents of resistance and change: finding allies, learning to speak the language of organisations, challenging taken-for-granted assumptions and creating spaces for alternative ways of working.

Ultimately, this is a conversation about how we understand the systems we work within—and what possibilities emerge when we become willing to question them.

Chapters:

• 00:00 – Neoliberalism, Mental Health & Resistance Within The Systems We Live In
• 03:32 – Meet Mark Phillips
• 05:52 – An Accidental Journey into Systemic Psychotherapy
• 08:02 – Privilege, Marginalisation & Identity
• 20:31 – When Therapy Becomes Part of an Oppressive System
• 23:42 – Positivism, Relativism & Understanding People in Context
• 28:18 – What Is Neoliberalism?
• 34:57 – The Paradox of Payment by Results
• 36:35 – From Behavioural to Relational Practice
• 40:48 – Systemic Practice as Activism
• 42:00 – “Be With Us”: Co-Construction & Collaboration
• 43:51 – Learning to Speak the Language of the System
• 48:18 – Finding Allies Within the System
• 50:12 – Individual Responsibility & Systemic Inequality
• 51:54 – Neoliberalism & the Productivity Machine
• 58:19 – Systemic Practice as Resistance
• 1:00:49 – Taking Risks & Speaking Truth to Power
• 1:05:12 – Finding Pockets of Possibility
• 1:09:33 – Moving Beyond “This Is How We Do Things”
• 1:10:53 – Putting Systemic Theory Into Action

Who are the people, past and present, who have helped you become who you are?

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we explore Team of Life, a creative narrative practice developed from the Tree of Life approach. We speak with Mariangels Ferrer-Duch and Vicky Eames from Riverbank Psychology as we discuss how to help people reconnect with stories of strength, courage and belonging. This is a reflective conversation about narrative practice, relational identity and the power of remembering that no one's story is written alone.

Using the metaphor of a sporting team, Team of Life invites us to think about the people, relationships, communities, values, skills and experiences that have helped shape who we are and supported us through difficult times.

Who are the people who have been in your corner?
Who has passed you the ball when you needed it?
Who helped you find your way when you were unsure where to go?
And whose team are you a member of?

Together, we explore how Team of Life can create opportunities to recognise skills, celebrate relationships and reconnect people with stories of strength, contribution and belonging that can easily become overshadowed by problems.

From a systemic and narrative perspective, the episode asks what becomes possible when we move away from seeing resilience as an individual quality and instead locate it within relationships, histories, communities and collective experience.

Because none of us gets through life entirely on our own.

Sometimes, it takes a team. 

Who would be on your Team of Life?

Dr Vicky Eames is a consultant clinical psychologist with over 30 years of experience in adult and child and adolescent mental health. She offers psychological therapy in Cornwall and online with specialisms in narrative therapy, attachment and trauma focused therapy, EMDR as well as therapeutic work with neurodivergent people.

Mariangels Ferrer-Duch is a clinical psychologist and systemic family therapist with over 30 years experience. She also holds a masters in narrative therapy and community work. Mariangels offers online supervision, consultation and training, helping practitioners develop their skills in narrative therapy, 

Join us for a thought-provoking episode as we sit down with Kunsang Yang Yang , a pioneering voice in the integration of Buddhist philosophy and systemic family therapy. Drawing from years of personal spiritual practice, professional experience, and the teachings of his root guru, H.H. Yisie Vorle (as featured in the book Path Beyond Samsara), Yang Yang explores how Buddhist concepts like mindfulness, non-self, and wholesome aspirations can transform the way we understand and foster change within families and communities.

Discover how Buddhist ideas—such as the five aggregates, relational mindfulness, and the power of mantra recitation—can broaden the systemic lens, offering new pathways for healing and connection. We’ll delve into practical techniques, including the innovative narrative-mantra group model, and hear insights from clinicians who have participated in these integrative practices. Whether you’re a therapist, spiritual seeker, or simply curious about the intersection of Eastern wisdom and modern psychology, this episode offers fresh perspectives and actionable ideas for cultivating compassion, resilience, and meaningful change.

Tune in to explore the rich dialogue between Buddhism and systemic therapy, and learn how ancient wisdom is shaping the future of mental health and relational wellbeing.

As a qualified Singaporean Systemic Family Psychotherapist, Counsellor and Social Worker for over 20 years, Yang Yang has worked with children, adolescents, individual adults, couples and families in the UK and Singapore. He lived in London for 13 years before relocating back to Singapore, where he continues to offer systemic therapy as a Buddhist monk. He just completed his PhD in Buddhist studies at Thailand during this interview. 

What does it mean to truly see in therapy? Not just to recognise a problem or follow a model, but to sense the subtle movements of relationship — the flicker of meaning between people, the quiet shifts that change the course of a conversation.

In this episode, Dr. Hugh Palmer, systemic family psychotherapist, trainer and writer, invites us into the art of expanded vision. Drawing on Gregory Bateson, William Blake, and decades of systemic practice, Hugh explores Fourfold Vision as a way of perceiving that blends evidence, theory, intuition and imagination into something alive, relational and deeply human.

Together, we wander through the landscapes of therapy where a clinician becomes scientist, theorist, humanist and artist all at once — noticing patterns, welcoming uncertainty, and allowing themselves to be changed by the families they meet. Hugh shows how widening our vision can open new possibilities for connection, creativity and transformation.

For therapists, supervisors, trainees, and anyone fascinated by how people make meaning together, this conversation offers a gentle but powerful invitation: to see more, feel more, and meet the world with a fuller, more responsive imagination.

In this episode, we shine a spotlight on the Pears Family School, a pioneering Alternative Provision school in the UK that is redefining how we support children with complex emotional, behavioral, and mental health needs. Facing a national crisis in child mental health and a lack of joined-up services, the Pears Family School bridges the gap between education and mental health through a unique, systemic, and family-focused approach.

We are joined by Laura Lower and Maya Bell Kohli as we discover how the school’s founders, both experienced teachers and systemic family therapists, created a model that integrates therapeutic and educational practices. We’ll explore the origins of their innovative multi-family classroom, the five bridging themes that guide every aspect of school life—Active Warmth, Respectful Curiosity, Hopeful Motivation, Supportive Challenge, and Engendered Trust—and the theoretical foundations that underpin their work, from Attachment Theory to Mentalization.

Hear how all staff, not just therapists, are trained in mental health principles, enabling them to make informed interventions throughout the school day. Learn about the school’s commitment to involving parents and carers in every step, from classroom activities to group discussions, building trust and solidarity among families who have often felt excluded or blamed.

Maya and Laura share real stories of transformation, discuss the challenges of working with children at risk of exclusion, and examine how the Pears Family School helps students recover, regain confidence, and transition successfully back to mainstream education. Whether you’re an educator, mental health professional, or advocate for vulnerable children, this episode offers practical insights and inspiration for anyone interested in systemic change and holistic support for families.

Laura is a family and systemic psychotherapist and supervisor with extensive experience in therapeutic education and safeguarding. For the past six years, she has been a senior leader at The Pears Family School, a specialist therapeutic alternative provision, where she works as Head of Therapy and Safeguarding Lead. Before joining the school, Laura worked in CAMHS as a Senior Mental Health Practitioner and spent seven years as a senior leader within a large SEMH Academy Trust. Prior to returning to the UK, she spent six years in Australia as a senior social worker and specialist forensic child interviewer. Across every setting, Laura has championed the belief that schools can be transformative spaces for children and families. She is passionate about systemic approaches and their power to create meaningful, sustainable change.

Maya is a trainee family and systemic psychotherapist who has worked at Pears Family School since 2018, firstly as a Class Teacher and now as an Assistant Headteacher and SENCO. Her interest in systemic ideas has been growing steadily through her work with families in education and charity contexts over the last 15 years. At Pears Family School her favourite part of her role is working alongside families so that they are positioned more powerfully within school or societal systems that often contribute to how they might feel they are failing or powerless. 

In this episode, we are joined by pioneering systemic psychotherapist, organisational consultant, and author Christine Oliver for a rich conversation exploring systemic approaches to organisational life, leadership, and change.

Drawing from over 30 years of experience across the NHS, charities, international organisations, faith communities, and private consultancy, Christine reflects on how systemic and social constructionist ideas can help organisations navigate complexity, conflict, hierarchy, and uncertainty.

Together, we explore reflexive inquiry, relational leadership, organisational culture, moral story-making, appreciative inquiry, and the power of conversation in shaping teams and systems. Christine shares insights from her influential work in consultancy and psychotherapy, including how organisations can create spaces where people think together with greater clarity, accountability, and respect.

We also discuss power and positionality in organisations, the challenges of leadership, and how systemic practitioners can work collaboratively in ways that move beyond expert-driven models of change.

This episode will be valuable for therapists, leaders, consultants, coaches, educators, and anyone interested in applying systemic thinking beyond the therapy room.

Christine brings warmth, wisdom, and decades of experience to this thoughtful and deeply practical conversation.

http://www.christineoliver.net/

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we speak with Rick Murphy and Lisa Dvorjetz about their book A Systemic Approach to Integrative Counselling (2024) and the growing need to bring relational thinking into everyday therapeutic practice.

Together, we explore how familiar counselling models such as person-centred, psychodynamic, CBT, Gestalt, and action-based approaches can be reworked through systemic ideas of context, relationships, patterns, and meaning. Rather than locating distress solely within the individual, Rick and Lisa invite us to consider how problems are shaped and sustained through interaction, culture, family histories, and wider social systems.

We discuss what this means for therapists working one-to-one, how counsellors can develop systemic thinking without abandoning their core model, and why integration needs more than simply combining techniques. This is a rich conversation about practice, ethics, creativity, and the future of counselling.

Essential listening for counsellors, psychotherapists, family therapists, trainees, supervisors, and anyone interested in moving beyond individualised understandings of human struggle.

A Systemic Approach to Integrative Counselling (Amazon)

https://amzn.eu/d/02FDlcHh

Celebrating our 100th episode of The Systemic Way Podcast.

We took The Systemic Way to @EFTA-RELATES 2025 Congress in Lyon and stepped into a space shaped by change, tension, and possibility.

Across four days, we spoke with therapists, researchers, and practitioners working at the edges of systemic practice. You hear their reflections, their challenges, and the moments that stayed with them. From conversations on migration, trauma, and social justice, to explorations of family therapy, organisational work, and community resilience, this episode captures what it felt like to be in the room.

This congress brought together voices from across the European Family Therapy Association and Red Europea y Latinoamericana de Escuelas Sistémicas. It created dialogue across difference. It held both innovation and uncertainty. It asked what systemic practice can offer in a world shaped by rapid scientific change and ongoing violence.

In this episode, you hear how people are responding. How they are working with complexity. How they are holding onto hope.

Real conversations. Lived experiences. Systemic thinking in action.

A massive thank you to Umberta Telfener, Parveen Kaur, Yvonne Rose, Ana Draper (she/her), Poppy Thorn, @Karen Franco; Matej Vajda, Carol Jolliffe, Jennifer McKinney, Francesca Balestra<