The Systemic Way

In this thought-provoking episode, we sit down with therapist, trainer, supervisor and author Desa Markovic to explore her compelling paper on the Aspects of Reading (2021) - a model that invites practitioners, students, and educators into a deeper, more layered relationship with texts.

Desa guides us through a nuanced framework that separates and then interweaves four key reading positions: The Author’s View, The Reader’s Personal Response, Critique, and Self-Reflexivity. Together, we unpack how this model encourages readers to momentarily suspend judgment, identify personal biases, engage ethically, and reflect on the multiple contextual influences that shape meaning.

We also discuss the limitations of reading, the intersections of culture, identity, and professional formation, and how this model challenges both passive consumption and systemic echo chambers in training. Whether you're a systemic practitioner, academic, or lifelong learner, this episode offers a powerful invitation to slow down, ask better questions, and develop a more intentional relationship with what we read—and how we read it.

 “When I feel this way, what does it allow me to learn from this particular paper?” — a question that might just transform your reading practice.

Markovic, D. (2021). Aspects of Reading. Murmurations: Journal of Transformative Systemic Practice, 3(2), 129-136.

In this inspiring and thought-provoking episode, we sit down with peace activist, former Jain monk, and ecological visionary Satish Kumar to explore the profound power of Radical Love—the focus of his latest book.

Together, we dive into how love can be understood not just as a personal feeling, but as a systemic force capable of transforming families, communities, and entire societies. Satish shares his reflections on how love can shape education, economics, politics, healthcare, and environmental action—offering a bold invitation to reimagine social systems rooted in compassion, care, and connection.

From his early life in India to walking thousands of miles for peace, Satish brings rich personal stories and deep wisdom about how love, empathy, and interdependence can heal both people and the planet.

Tune in for an exploration of:

• The role of love in shaping resilient families and communities
• How Radical Love challenges dominant systems of power, economics, and politics
• Practical ways to cultivate love in social action, education, and daily life
• The intersection of love, justice, and sustainability
• Why love must become a guiding principle for systemic change

Prepare to be moved, challenged, and inspired.

Radical Love (2023)

https://shop.resurgence.org/product/view/REBK111/radical-love

To see peace in our lifetimes, we have to practise love.

This is the radical message of this inspirational book of pithy advice from environmental activist Satish Kumar, which helps us find ways to love ourselves, others, and all beings on planet Earth—even those we may find unlovable.

Satish Kumar is well known for his epic walk for world peace in his youth in the 1960s from India to the nuclear capitals of Moscow, Paris, London, and Washington, DC. Wherever he traveled, he found that human beings were capable of a love that could overcome hatred and division. Settling down in the UK, he married his wife, June Mitchell, and founded eco-university Schumacher College in Devon, eventually becoming a leading figure in the UK green movement.

Radical Love distills the author’s lifetime of experience as a lover, parent, activist, and educator into simple lessons on transforming our time of ecological crisis, conflict, and scarcity into one in which we experience harmony with nature, safety, and abundance. It is an exploration of the transformative power of love in all its forms, from romantic love to love for one’s family and community to love for the planet and all beings.

Kumar’s approach is founded on simplicity (including the Jain principle of aparigraha), generosity, and continuous learning. Like an unfolding metta meditation, the book expands our notions of love to its most sublime universal state and makes a great gift to share with those we love.

What if our biggest crises – from climate collapse to mental health – demand not simpler solutions, but a deeper embrace of complexity? Join us for a profound conversation with Nora Bateson, award-winning filmmaker, writer, and systems thinker.

Nora takes us inside the rich ecology of ideas explored in her groundbreaking book, Combining. Nora challenges us to see the world as a web of inseparable relationships, where every action ripples with incalculable consequences. She argues compellingly that tackling our "Polycrisis" requires understanding interdependence, sitting with ambiguity, and nurturing the vital, often unseen, connections she calls "Warm Data" – the lifeblood of complex systems.

Discover how "Combining" uniquely blends intellectual rigor, emotional vulnerability, storytelling, poetry, and art to invite us into "Aphanipoiesis" – the mysterious processes by which life collaboratively fosters vitality and evolution. Nora urges us beyond the illusion of "fitting in," towards a practice of "uncutness" and radical interconnectedness.

We delve into the real-world application of these ideas through her pioneering Warm Data Labs. Learn how these immersive, transcontextual gatherings foster new ways of knowing and relating, moving beyond isolated data points to grasp living, relational patterns.

Crucially, we explore Nora's deep connection to systemic psychotherapy. How does her work, rooted in the legacy of her father, Gregory Bateson, resonate with therapeutic practices? How does understanding systems at multiple levels – from the personal psyche to the global ecosystem – inform healing, relationships, and our collective responsibility for humanity's future?

Prepare for a mind-expanding journey where love, humour, curiosity, and the courage to be vulnerable collide with the urgent trials of our time. Nora Bateson doesn't just offer analysis; she beckons us towards revelation and revolution in how we perceive ourselves, our communities, and our place in the intricate tapestry of life.

In this rich and wide-ranging conversation, we sit down with Umberta Telfener, President of EFTA, and Hans Christian Michaelsen, Vice President, to explore the heart of systemic practice across Europe.

Together, they unpack what EFTA (European Family Therapy Association) is, how it’s structured, and what it offers to both long-standing members and curious newcomers. We hear about their personal journeys into systemic therapy, the organization’s current goals, and the evolving landscape of family and systemic practice in response to global challenges—from climate change to social justice.

We also dive into the EFTA Task Forces—on Social Justice, Research, Training Standards, Ethics, and External Relationships—and explore how these working groups are shaping the future of systemic thinking and action.

Whether you’re a seasoned practitioner or just discovering systemic ideas, this episode offers an open invitation to get involved, attend the upcoming EFTA Congress, and take part in a growing, reflective, and forward-thinking community.

In this episode, we speak with Taiwo Afuape and Sumita Dutta, Co-Directors of the Institute of Family Therapy in London, to explore the rich history and bold new direction of one of the UK’s leading centres for systemic practice. 

Together, we reflect on IFT’s legacy, its role in shaping generations of family therapists, and how its current leadership is reimagining training and practice through a lens of social justice, inclusivity, and innovation. This is a conversation about change, continuity, and the power of collective vision.

https://ift.org.uk/

Join us for an inspiring and thought-provoking interview with Dr. Harlene Anderson, a trailblazer in systemic psychotherapy and co-founder of the Collaborative-Dialogical Approach. In this deep dive, we explore her revolutionary ideas—from challenging traditional therapy hierarchies to redefining power, knowledge, and the role of language in healing.  

We’ll unpack:  
- The origins of her work—What drew her to the Mental Research Institute (MRI) and constructivist ideas? Who were her early influences?  
- The birth of the Collaborative-Dialogical Approach—How did she and Harry Goolishian shift therapy from "expert diagnosis" to conversational meaning-making?  
- The myth of "not-knowing*—How has this controversial (and often misunderstood) concept evolved? Is it a political stance, a therapeutic tool, or both?  
- Power, reflexivity, and ethics—Can therapists truly "not know"? How do we balance lived experience with professional knowledge without reinforcing oppressive dynamics?  
- Real-world applications**—How do these ideas translate beyond therapy into education, organisations, and social justice?  

Plus, we include listener questions which tackle the tough critiques: Is "not-knowing" still misused today? Does it risk ignoring systemic power? And how do therapists ethically choose which discourses to engage?  

This is a conversation about unlearning, curiosity, and the transformative power of dialogue—one that challenges therapists and listeners alike to rethink how we engage with each other’s stories.  

Join us in this insightful episode as we sit down with Dr. John Launer, a retired GP, family therapist, and pioneer in integrating systemic and narrative approaches into healthcare. Dr. Launer shares his journey from general practice to becoming a leading figure in training healthcare professionals to use therapeutic conversations in their everyday work.

Discover the transformative power of Conversations Inviting Change (CIC), a method Dr. Launer co-developed to help clinicians balance the normative demands of medicine with the reflective, curiosity-driven practices of systemic and narrative therapy. Learn about the Seven Cs framework—Conversation, Curiosity, Context, Complexity, Challenge, Caution, and Care—and how it can revolutionize patient interactions, supervision, and teamwork in healthcare settings.

Dr. Launer also reflects on the challenges facing the NHS, the importance of storytelling in medicine, and his hopes for the future of healthcare education. Whether you're a healthcare professional, therapist, or simply curious about innovative approaches to communication, this episode offers valuable insights into creating meaningful, patient-centered care.

Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that bridges the gap between medicine and therapy, and explores how curiosity and reflection can transform healthcare practices.

Join us for an inspiring and personal conversation with John Burnham, a true trailblazer in systemic psychotherapy and a visionary in the field of family therapy. With a career spanning over five decades, John has dedicated his life to transforming the way we understand and approach mental health, particularly in the context of eating disorders and family dynamics.

In this insightful podcast episode, John Burnham, reflects on his decades-long career, sharing personal and professional experiences that have shaped his approach to systemic psychotherapy. He discusses the importance of relationships, both in therapy and in life, emphasizing how trust, risk-taking, and role-playing are essential tools for growth and connection. 

John recounts memorable moments from his practice, including how live supervision and reflective teams have influenced his work, and highlights the value of humility, curiosity, and adaptability in therapeutic practice. He also touches on the evolution of family therapy, the importance of staying relevant in the field, and his hopes for its future. With warmth and wisdom, John offers a heartfelt exploration of what it means to be a therapist, a colleague, and a lifelong learner in the ever-changing landscape of psychotherapy.

Summary of episode:

1. Role of Role Play in Learning:
   • Importance of role play in helping students learn by making mistakes, recovering, and moving forward.
   • Example of a supervisor demonstrating techniques with families in front of students, which students found helpful.
2. Overcoming Fear of Failure:
   • Students often hold back due to fear of making mistakes or not knowing how to start.
   • Encouragement to take action, even if clumsy, rather than waiting to be "clever" or perfect.
   • Families can be forgiving and collaborative in the process.
3. Engaging Families in Therapy:
   • Therapists need to show willingness to engage with families before expecting families to engage in therapy.
   • Importance of taking initiative and co-creating solutions with families.
   • Example of a therapist reading through a client's extensive notes and deciding to engage based on the person, not just the notes.
4. Building Trust with Marginalized Families:
   • Some families, such as same-sex couples, may fear judgment or criticism from therapists.
   • Therapists need to reach out and create a safe space for these families to engage.
   • Example of a therapist meeting a same-sex couple at the top of the stairs to reassure them and invite them into therapy.
5. Ethics of Offering Therapy:
   • Debate on whether to offer therapy without meeting the client first.
   • Perspective that it is unethical to reject clients without meeting them and understanding their unique situation.
6. Personal Reflections on Career and Privilege:
   • Gratitude for being able to work in a field that is fulfilling and impactful.
   • Reflection on the privilege of loving one's job and making a contribution to others' lives.
   • Connection to personal family history, such as a parent who trained as a family therapist but never practiced.
7. Decolonization in Family Therapy:
   • Family therapy as a decolonizing process against the medical model and individualization.
   • Discussion of presentism and judging past actions by current standards.
   • Reflection on the lack of exposure to racial issues in a monocultural environment and how that shaped early understanding.
8. Intergenerational Impact of Training:
   • Therapists training the children of those they previously trained, highlighting the long-term impact of their work.

In this episode, we sit down with Nick Putman, founder of Open Dialogue UK and a leading force in adapting the Open Dialogue approach to the UK. As a UKCP registered psychotherapist and certified Open Dialogue practitioner and trainer, Nick shares his journey of learning directly from pioneers like Jaakko Seikkula and Jorma Ahonen, and how he has worked to bring this revolutionary approach to the NHS and beyond.

We explore Nick’s visits to Western Lapland to study Open Dialogue in practice, his work running training programmes internationally, and his contributions as co-editor of Open Dialogue for Psychosis. With over 25 years of experience in mental health settings, Nick offers deep insights into how prioritising dialogue, relationships, and meaning can transform care for people experiencing psychosis and their families.

Join us for an inspiring conversation about the challenges and triumphs of bringing Open Dialogue to the UK and reshaping mental health services.

In this episode, we’re joined by attendees from the Hayaa’ Network’s groundbreaking conference on neurodiversity, held in Singapore in February 2024. Together, we reflect on the latest advancements in practice, research, and theory in this rapidly evolving area of mental health, all through a systemic lens. Featuring insights from keynote speakers Dr. Marwa Azab, Ms. Nora Bateson, Ms. Maimunah Mosli, and Dr. Mairi Evans, this conversation dives into the intersections of neurodiversity and systemic practice. We explore the complexities shaping the experiences of neurodivergent individuals and their families, offering fresh perspectives on the interplay between mental health and neurodiversity.

Tune in for an engaging discussion that highlights the rich tapestry of systemic approaches in this vital field.

We are joined by:
Rubi Salam
Rupert Armistad
Eleanor Osman
Shalia Sheikh 
Ameesha Sharif