Helene Lawler is a dog trainer who has become fascinated by balance, so of course we had to have a conversation. What has she been learning from horses that applies to her dog training?

In this week’s episode Dominique asks the question “What is Balance?” Before you listen to the podcast, think about what would you say. Now listen to the podcast to find out how Helene and Alexandra answered her question.

Helene Lawler is a professional dog trainer. She shares her house with 14 herding dogs so to say that she loves dogs is an understatement.

Helene has been a regular listener to these podcasts. That’s what prompted her to attend our first virtual Science Camp which was held in Sept 2020. What ignited Helene’s imagination was the work we did on balance and rope handling.

The day after Science Camp one of her clients presented her with what she thought was a poisoned cue issue. The situation could well have become a poisoned cue if it had continued much longer. But Helene was looking at all of her training with fresh eyes. Her client saw poisoned cues. Helene saw a balance issue - not in the dog, but in the handler. A few changes later and the dog was performing beautifully.

Helene has continued to explore what equine balance has to offer the canine community, so of course we wanted her share what she has been discovering. We had a lively - and lengthy conversation - so this is Part One of a wonderful afternoon’s conversation about balance - what that means for horses, dogs and humans.

This is part three of our conversation with Mary Hunter. Just before Thanksgiving we spent a delightful afternoon catching up with Mary. We started out talking about gardening and the growing of cilantro. That led us to extinction and then to shaping and finding approximations that create early success.

We talked about Carol Dweck’s work on growth versus fixed mindsets. We described several strategies for becoming more creative in finding constructional approaches to training, We even talked about Dr Doug Tallamy’s backyard national parks and my other podcast - Horses for Future.

We came to a lovely stopping place. At this point we had talked already for a couple of hours. We needed to stop. But then I asked Mary if there were any other topics she had wanted to explore - possibly for another recording session.

Mary hesitated for a moment. Should she even bring this up? We had been talking for a very long time. It was the middle of the afternoon when we started and now it was getting dark. She’d just share this one idea - for later. But that didn’t work because the subject was helmets.

Helmets! Why helmets? What was that about? We needed to know more. We were too impatient to record it at another time, so here it is as part of this current conversation.

What is the connection between riding helmets, recycling and horse training? You’re about to find out.

Mary Hunter is a behavior analyst. She coaches people with their horse and dog training. She was our guide through the Listen and Learn Audio course on Applied Behavior Analysis.

Our conversation with Mary Hunter began not with horses, but with gardening. When Mary shares a story whether it is about gardens or horses, there is always a point it. She uses her stories to illustrate important training concepts. So our conversation about growing plants - and sometimes failing at growing plants - took us to a discussion of extinction, finding the right approximations to build success early on, and constructional training.

Dominique asked an important question - how do you become skilled at finding the right approximations for your horse? Her question led us to several useful strategies for developing creative training skills. They are described in detail in this week’s podcast.

Episode 124: Mary Hunter Pt 1: Growing Cilantro - Yes It Is About Training!

This week begins a series with Mary Hunter. Mary is a horse owner, a training coach for both horses and dogs, and an applied behavior analyst. She has a great blog: StaleCheerios.com. She organizes the annual Art and Science of Animal Training conference, and she together with Dr. Jesús Rosales Ruiz, she has written the PORTL Manual. She was also our guide for the Listen and Learn Audio course on Applied Behavior Analysis.

Just before Thanksgiving we spent a delightful afternoon catching up with Mary. We started out talking about gardening and the growing of cilantro. That led us to extinction and then to shaping and finding approximations that create early success.

A windy day was the spark behind a conversation about managing horses when their energy is up. That led in turn to stimulus control and remembering how powerful small changes in the environment can be. And that led us to a favorite subject - using the training to ask questions so our horses have a real say in what we do together. What we are really talking about is listening well.

This week Dominique launched us into an interesting conversation about reinforcers. If you don’t want to use food, or you want to use food creatively, what are some of your options with horses.

With dogs there can be so many fun ways to reinforce behavior besides using a food reward. You can toss a ball, play tug, give a belly scratch. With horses because feeding treats is such an easy reinforcer to use, we seem to get into more of a rut in our thinking. So this week we explore different options.

We begin by talking about how grazing can be used as a reinforcer. It’s still using food, but often people fight against grass instead of using it. Just like any treat delivery process, if you want to use the opportunity to graze, you have to go through a teaching process with your horse.

Many people close their pastures at this time of the year to keep their horses from churning them into mud. Especially if you board your horse, you may be doing a lot of hand grazing. That means his is a great time of the year to work on this lesson. You’ll be turning grass into a powerful reinforcer you can use in your training. And your horse will be learning a lot about polite manners and emotional control.

We talk about non-food reinforcers, as well. It all helps to make the training more interesting for your horse.

The rest of this sentence is find a look that pleases your eye. When you look at a horse what do you like? If you’re looking at ten pictures of your beloved horse, what characteristics make you choose this photo over that one? This is the question we explore in this week’s podcast. What pleases your eye, and why is this important to think about when you train, and especially when you feed your horse?

This week’s episode explores the stimulus control quadrants developed by Dr. Jesús Rosales Ruiz. When I say stimulus control many of you are probably thinking about the four criteria that are used to judge if a cue is under full stimulus control. This is not what Jesús is talking about.

He’s looking instead at the conditions under which learning occurs. It’s a fascinating discussion. Don’t fight extinction is an important part of the stimulus control quadrants. You can find out what this means in this week’s episode.

This week's podcast was prompted by a question a listener sent in. She had a terrifying escape with her two horses from one of the California fires. Her experience prompted a question about choice. Her question led us to a discussion of the work of Dr. Jesús Rosales Ruiz on stimulus control. This is a short episode. We decided to introduce the topic this week and then to dive in more deeply in our next podcast.