As lead negotiator on climate finance for the EU at Cop28, Minister for the Environment Eamon Ryan was at the table in Dubai when the final agreement was written.

The agreement “calls on parties to contribute to transitioning away from fossil fuels in energy systems”, a historic, if belated, first explicit reference to leaving fossil fuels behind in a Cop text.

Critics such as former president Mary Robinson were quick to point out that “transitioning away” is weaker than the alternative “phased out”.

Mr Ryan says the difference is minor. “Our advisors, legal advisors and others said it was equally strong, and sufficiently strong, compared to phasing out,” he says, arguing the Cop28 agreement, while imperfect, represents an important step-change.

He talks to Bernice Harrison about the rejection of the first draft, how consensus was reached (”fossil fuel lobbyists did not want this text. They fought against it tooth and nail”) and the loopholes that allow continued expansion of fossil fuel production - and defends Ireland’s own record on climate action.

Presented by Bernice Harrison. Produced by Declan Conlon.

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