As tens of thousands of Americans die of COVID-19, fear and uncertainty devolve into paranoid tribalism. At our most extreme, one side believes science is sacrosanct, and the other claims the pandemic is a plot to destabilize the president. Political commentator Charlie Sykes was once at the center of the American conservative movement. Now he opposes Donald Trump and the right-wing media that enable his cult of personality. On this week’s Kicker, Sykes, founder and editor-at-large of The Bulwark, and Kyle Pope, editor and publisher of CJR, discuss the legitimate argument to be made for civil liberties, and the origins of anti-science sentiment among conservative voters.