“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

Nolan and Kelli talk about Jamie Dimon's leaked critique of remote work while examining the collision between post-pandemic workplace expectations and corporate realities. They explore leadership's critical role in employee engagement, the shifting talent marketplace, and how organizational culture ultimately determines whether flexibility becomes an asset or liability in modern workplaces.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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REFERENCE:

Nolan’s post on LinkedIn regarding Jamie Dimon: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/nolan-church_ceos-are-done-with-remote-work-this-is-activity-7296192450493120514-xCMH/

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:50) Thoughts on the leaked JP Morgan CEO video on remote work(02:08) On remote work flexibility(02:25) Red Pill Moment?(03:35) Was JP Morgan recording was intentional?(05:34) Talent expectations and companies returning to the office(06:51) Sponsor: Metaview(08:45) Human adaptation to remote work(09:58) The importance of leadership in work engagement(11:07) Missionary versus mercenary motivation(12:45) Thoughts on leadership and market conditions(12:51) Wrap

In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church discuss 'agentic AI' in a practical and relevant way for HR pros. They dig into what agentic AI is today vs future expectations and debate current tool limitations. They also share their current AI tool stack, workflows, and their overall approach to viewing AI like a 'junior colleague'.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:55) What is Agentic AI?

(02:05) AI Decision-Making Autonomy

(03:16) Examples of Traditional AI Workflows

(04:20) Behind the AI "Magic"

(05:06) Experience with ChatGPT Operator

(07:13) Context and Expertise Gap

(10:35) Early Innings of AI Development

(11:39) Improving AI Interactions

(13:19) Garbage In, Garbage Out

(13:27) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:44) The Shift to Agentic AI

(18:23) AI Thinking and Collaboration

(19:25) Human-Machine Adaptation

(20:27) Machines Becoming More Human-Like

(22:23) Daily AI Stack

(25:08) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan talk about candidate feedback during hiring processes and debate whether companies should provide feedback to rejected candidates, especially those who've invested significant time in interviews and assignments. They discuss recruiter bandwidth challenges and liability concerns while advocating for human-centered feedback approaches, especially for onsite candidates, plus advice on requesting feedback gracefully.

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected]

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

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Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH ANNA, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:13) The Core Issue: Lack of Feedback After Extensive Interviews(01:00) The Reality of Lean Teams and Bandwidth Constraints(02:15) The Liability Concern: Company Policy Against Sharing Feedback(03:00) A Shift in Perspective: Treating Candidates With Respect(04:06) The Importance of Feedback After On-Site Interviews(04:20) Setting Candidate Expectations: Establishing a "Contract"(05:49) Clarity of Identity: Defining Company Approach to Feedback(06:55) The Long-Term Impact of Thoughtful Candidate Experience(07:13) A Practical Approach: Phone Calls for On-Site Candidates(08:47) Sponsor: Metaview(10:41) Importance of Live Feedback(11:01) Worst-Case Scenarios and the Skill of Giving Feedback(12:41) Recruiters as People People - Navigating Difficult Conversations(13:29) The Need for Recruiters to Develop Hard Conversation Skills(14:00) HR BP skills on the recruiting team(14:44) The Candidate's Perspective: Managing Expectations(15:32) How to Ask for Feedback(16:28) Expanding Your Network and Paying it Forward(18:11) Don't Underestimate How Small the World Is(18:34) Wrap

Iain Roberts, Global Head of Employee Experience at Airbnb, discusses experimenting in HR in 2025, the design-thinking reshaping organizational structures, and why CEO Brian Chesky’s ‘Founder Mode’ is much misinterpreted. Iain covers innovative approach to flexible work, cross-functional alignment, and treating employee programs as evolving products requiring continuous refinement.

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected]

**For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

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LINK/S:

Airbnb: https://www.airbnb.com/

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REFERENCE/S:

NVIDIA’s Jensen Huang says that IT will ‘become the HR of AI agents’:

https://fortune.com/2025/01/09/nvidia-ceo-jensen-huangt-take-over-hr-ai-agents/

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KEEP UP WITH IAIN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Iain: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertsiain/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) From Designer to HR Leader: Iain's Journey

(01:15) "Everything Needs to Be Designed" Philosophy

(03:09) Designing Systems of People and Structures

(04:47) Bringing Design Thinking to HR at Airbnb

(08:03) Airbnb's One Roadmap Approach: 7,000 People, One Focus

(07:21) Top-Down vs. Bottom-Up Culture & Innovation

(10:26) Tactically Transforming an HR Team with Design Thinking

(11:47) Treating HR as Products and Services

(13:14) The Future of HR Product Management

(14:36) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:30) Founder Mode: Misinterpretations and Brian Chesky's Approach

(23:00) Airbnb's Shift to a Single Product Roadmap

(26:54) Design-Led Culture and Attention to Detail at Airbnb

(28:48) Prototyping & Iterating with Human Experiences: Challenges

(30:50) Airbnb's Gathering Strategy and Flexible Work Philosophy

(33:48) Airbnb's Contrarian Stance on Remote Work (Live & Work Anywhere)

(39:45) Wrap

Anna Binder, Head of People at Asana, shares her journey as an HR leader, her approach to board membership at CultureAmp, and her philosophy on talent management. The discussion covers the nitty gritty of preparing and contributing in board meetings, long-term DEI initiatives, and the importance of authentic leadership in HR, particularly highlighting the value of playing the long game in organizational development.

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected]

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

LINK/S:

Asana: https://asana.com/

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KEEP UP WITH ANNA, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Anna: https://www.linkedin.com/in/annabinder/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:47) Becoming a Board Member at Culture Amp(05:33) The Importance of Taking Calls and Building Relationships(07:10) How to Prepare for and Participate Effectively on a Board(11:48) Examples of "Operating" vs. Asking the Right Questions as a Board Member(14:57) Sponsor: Metaview(16:57) Anna's Experience Building MuleSoft(19:00) Navigating Disagreements and Being "Invited to Exit"(21:12) Sharing the News and the Importance of Transparency(22:50) Finding the Right Fit and the Role of Values(25:57) Joining Asana(26:26) Ensuring Alignment During the Interview Process(29:35) How to Maintain Stamina and Interest Over a Long Tenure(31:14) Examples of Attention to Detail and Values Alignment at Asana(31:46) Examining the CEO's Calendar During Interviews(33:05) Anna's Controversial Recruiting Philosophy(33:16) Recruiting Top Talent(35:42) DEI at Asana: Long-Term Vision and Business Outcomes(39:38) The Importance of Being in the Right Room(40:09) Playing the Long Game on DEI(41:59) Encouraging People to Enter the Field(44:31) Outro

Nolan and Kelli talk about retaining top-performing employees (the crucial 1%) and emphasize that compensation alone isn't sufficient; leaders must combine verbal recognition, proactive compensation strategies, transparency, and genuine appreciation. They stress the importance of eliminating compensation anxiety for these key employees and building long-term relationships, and argue that thoughtful, personalized treatment of top talent ultimately benefits both the individual and organization.

Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected]

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introdu(00:13) Defining the Top 1%(00:57) Shifting Trends in Job Offers and Compensation(02:04) Appreciating Top Talent(03:01) The Importance of Appreciation Beyond Monetary Compensation(03:56) Balancing Appreciation and Competitive Compensation(05:02) Transparency in Compensation Decisions(07:49) Sponsor: Metaview(09:43) Four Pillars: Appreciation, Thoughtfulness, Proactivity, and Transparency(12:08) The Expectation of Transparency(12:43) Long-Term Career Involvement with Top Performers(14:21) Reciprocity in Employer-Employee Relationships(14:53) Wrap

Nolan and Kelli talk about AI's role in hiring processes, sparked by Anthropic's policy against using AI in job applications. They explore the tension between AI as a valuable tool and its potential for interview deception, ultimately advocating for a more integrated approach where candidates openly demonstrate their AI usage skills rather than attempting to restrict or hide it.

Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected]

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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RECOMMENDATIONS FOR THIS PODCAST:

Gizmodo Article: “Anthropic Wants You to Use AI—Just Not to Apply for Its Jobs”

https://gizmodo.com/anthropic-wants-you-to-use-ai-just-not-to-apply-for-its-jobs-2000558490

Anthropic: https://www.anthropic.com/

Final Round AI: https://www.finalroundai.com/

Sora: https://openai.com/sora/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:26) Initial Reactions and Perspectives to Anthropic’s Policy(02:23) AI as a Tool vs. Replacement for Human Skills(03:36) AI-Powered Interview Cheating.(04:11) Practical AI Usage Throughout the Application Process(06:21) Sponsor: Metaview(08:15) Authenticity vs. AI Assistance(10:09) Polarities and Gradients of AI Usage(11:16) The Problem of Cheating and the "Open Book" Interview Approach(12:30) Using AI During In-Person Interviews(13:33) Adapting to AI in Hiring and Education(14:18) Audience Engagement and Future Solutions(15:03) Wrap

Entrepreneur Jesse Tinsley - founder of Employer.com and other successful tech ventures - discusses his consortium's bid to acquire TikTok alongside MrBeast. The dialogue with Kelli and Nolan examines the philosophical and practical implications of executive compensation reduction during corporate restructuring, while illustrating how digital discourse can evolve into substantive debate when moved from social media to direct dialogue.

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected]

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

LINK/S:

Employer.com: https://www.employer.com/

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KEEP UP WITH JESSE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Jesse: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessetinsley

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(01:55) Update on the TikTok Acquisition(02:25) Motivation Behind Acquiring TikTok with Mr. Beast(04:38) How TikTok Fits into Jesse's Business Portfolio(07:07) Discussion on Executive Compensation and Layoffs(10:28) Specifics on Executive Salary Cuts(11:00) Sponsor: Metaview(12:57) Executive Compensation(15:34) The Importance of Leadership Accountability(18:16) Cultural Impact of Executive Pay Cuts(19:12) Wrap(21:05) Outro

Adam Ward (founding partner, Growth by Design) discusses the current landscape of executive hiring in people/talent roles, particularly the prevalence of "pocket listings" - positions filled through private networks rather than public postings. He offers insights into what CEOs value in people leaders (business-driven mindset, operational excellence), how candidates can effectively navigate professional networks, and the importance of structured hiring processes.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

LINKS:

Growth By Talent: https://www.gbdtalent.com/

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KEEP UP WITH ADAM, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Adam: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adampward/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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REFERENCE:

“Give and Take” by Adam Grant:

https://adamgrant.net/book/give-and-take/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:57) The "Pocket Listing" Phenomenon in Executive Hiring

(02:22) Unpacking the Reasons Behind Covert Hiring Practices

(03:59) Practical Strategies for Candidates to Expand Their Networks and Access Hidden Opportunities

(05:03) Cultivating a Personal "Board of Advisors" for Career Guidance and Opportunity Awareness

(08:41) The Importance of "Give and Take" in Networking and Building Mutually Beneficial Relationships

(09:43) Defining the Qualities of a Successful Head of People/Talent: The CEO's Perspective

(11:10) A "Business-Driven" Approach to HR Leadership

(13:04) Moving Beyond Quantity to Focus on Quality

(16:04) Sponsor: Metaview

(18:07) Identifying Must-Have Skills and Experiences for a Head of People Role

(19:14) The "CEO Whisperer" Role: Balancing Support and Independent Counsel

(21:57) Identifying Traits That May Hinder a People Leader's Job Search Success

(23:08) Addressing Polarities and Calibrating Expectations Within Hiring Teams

(26:48) The Resurgence of Candidate Experience as a Differentiator in a Competitive Market

(28:53) Why Top Talent Approaches Job Opportunities with Caution

(31:24) Defining the Scope and Focus of the Head of Talent Role in Today's Environment

(36:04) How Candidates Should Effectively Interact with Executive Search Firms

(41:52) Values Alignment: How To Find a Successful Values Match For Company Culture

(42:05) What Causes Executive Placements to Fail?

(44:55) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan examine the art of building authentic company values. Through real-world experiences, they reveal the methodical process of transforming abstract principles into tangible organizational behavior that drives meaningful cultural change.

*Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected]

**For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro(00:13) Discussion on Company Values(01:30) Importance of Leadership and Top Performer Alignment(02:19) Company Core Values and Honesty(02:43) Scaling Culture in Founder-Led Companies(03:46) Making the Intangible Tangible(04:23) Revealed vs. Stated Character(04:40) The Benefit of Outsourcing the Process of Developing Company Values(05:54) Company Values Are Always Evolving(06:27) The Goldilocks Approach(07:48) Sponsor: Metaview(09:52) Quick Process to Rough Draft(10:20) Doordash Example(11:56) Pendo's Working Committee and Bottoms Up Approach(13:19) The Importance of Timing(14:25) Wrap