“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, Metaview CEO, and Nolan Church dissect Anthropic's groundbreaking paper “Tracing the thoughts of a large language model” released on March 27, 2025. They explore surprising findings: LLMs plan ahead rather than simply predicting next tokens, think across multiple languages simultaneously, and often present explanations that satisfy humans rather than reflecting their actual reasoning processes.

The conversation highlights the paradox of developing powerful AI systems without understanding their workings, raising implications for deployment, safety, and the "intelligence on tap" paradigm reshaping our technological relationship. We should all be paying attention.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Anthropic’s featured paper: https://www.anthropic.com/news/tracing-thoughts-language-model

Metaview: https://www.metaview.ai/

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OTHER RECOMMENDED LINKS:

Mercor: https://mercor.com/

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TIMESTAMPS

(00:13) Intro

(00:45) Anthropic's Mind-Blowing Paper

(01:37) LLMs Think Across Languages

(02:04) Faked Reasoning in AI Models

(02:28) AI Hallucinations Explained

(03:00) First Paragraph Reveals Uncertainty

(05:18) Beyond Next Token Prediction

(07:23) Evaluating LLMs Without Understanding

(08:44) More Human Than Software

(10:05) Why You Should Experiment With AI

(11:13) The Airplane Analogy

(12:26) Safety Concerns for Future AI

(12:54) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:27) Dario Amodei on AI Self-Policing

(18:05) OpenAI's $300B Valuation

(19:33) Intelligence on Tap

(22:02) Retraining Google Habits

(24:35) Agentic AI & Reinforcement Learning

(27:15) Human Training for AI Models

(30:25) Wrap

Today we're excited to introduce you to an episode of 10x Recruiting, a podcast from Metaview hosted by our very own Nolan Church. 10x Recruiting is focused on conversations with top talent leaders to help listeners build world-class teams and stay ahead in the evolving recruiting landscape.

Today's guest is Arthur Matuszewski, who shares insights from his diverse career at Bridgewater, Better.com, and his firm Carrara. He emphasizes intellectual honesty, focusing on work outputs rather than titles, and avoiding false negatives in hiring. Nolan says he's one of the most insightful guests ever.

Matuszewski advocates for evaluating talent based on actual value creation rather than pedigree, and stresses the importance of adapting recruitment strategies to each org's unique context rather than relying on standardized playbooks.

Head to The 10x Recruiting Podcast on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify for more interviews like this one.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@10x_Recruiting_pod

Apple:

Spotify:

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LINKS:

Arthur’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthurmatuszewski/

Carrara: https://www.carrara.is/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:53) Episode preview

(05:51) Arthur's career journey overview

(07:53) Lessons learned at Bridgewater

(10:41) Recruiting for teams vs individuals

(12:35) Bridgewater's culture of experimentation

(16:47) High attrition rate and false negatives

(23:22) Better.com's rise and viral moment

(28:02) Defining intellectual honesty

(30:08) Carrara and focusing on the work

(37:56) Balancing productivity with thinking time

(40:03) Avoiding sunk costs in talent decisions

(43:31) Carrara's process for delivering winners

(45:43) Showing founders what the market is saying

(47:19) Internal vs external talent perspectives

(51:58) Wrap

In this episode, Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church are joined by Lucy Adams, founder of Disruptive HR. Adams critiques traditional HR's rigid policies, advocating instead for judgment-based approaches that treat employees as grown-ups. The conversation explores challenges facing HR business partners, the evolution of DEI initiatives, and how organizations can create environments where people thrive through high-trust cultures, rather than compliance-driven systems.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card.

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH LUCY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Lucy: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lucykadams/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Disruptive HR: https://disruptivehr.com/

Lucy’s article “HR Business Partner: The toughest role in HR?”: https://disruptivehr.com/hr-business-partner-the-toughest-role-in-hr/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:17) Lucy's Background and BBC Experience

(03:08) Personal Connection and BBC Stories

(04:25) Origins of Disruptive HR

(07:00) Evolution of HR and Post-COVID Workplace Changes

(11:39) Trust and Autonomy in Workplace Decisions

(16:56) Trust as Foundation for Business Success

(17:32) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful

(20:27) Progressive HR Policies and Examples

(23:53) HR Business Partner Role Challenges

(25:13) Sponsor: Metaview

(27:55) Messy Reality of Great HR Work

(31:00) HR's Focus on Process vs. Real Impact

(33:26) Current HR Trends and Community Concerns

(35:56) DEI Evolution and Conversation Approaches

(45:53) Wrap

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan discuss the profound impact of personal crises on work life. They share vulnerable stories about caring for ill family members—Kelli's mother's recent stage four cancer diagnosis and Nolan's father-in-law's illness and passing.

They reflect on the impossibility of compartmentalizing personal trauma, the importance of workplace support networks, and practical advice for both those experiencing crises and colleagues supporting them.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Thatch makes it easy to give your team great healthcare. Save ~$1620 per employee yearly while giving them customizable plans. Visit https://thatch.AI/HR for a demo and receive a $100 gift card.

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:24) Impact of Crisis on Professional Life

(03:19) Becoming a Parent to Your Parent

(03:41) The Adrenaline Phase vs. Reality Setting In

(04:18) Nolan's Story of His Father-in-Law

(05:47) How Crisis Changes Your Perspective

(07:11) The Impossibility of Compartmentalizing Life

(08:02) The Importance of Strong Work Relationships

(09:21) The Speed of Life-Changing Events

(10:01) Gaining Wisdom Through Difficulty

(10:18) The Value of Having a Coach

(12:22) Using Your Support System Effectively

(13:19) Finding a New Balance in Crisis

(14:10) Practical Ways to Help Someone in Crisis

(14:49) Sponsors: Thatch | Planful

(17:00) Navigating the Healthcare System

(18:03) The Critical Need for Medical Advocacy

(19:35) How Crisis Impacts Your Work Priorities

(20:17) Asking the Right Questions When Supporting Others

(21:04) Sponsor: Metaview

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Nolan and Kelli discuss recent HR tech industry drama involving Rippling and Deel, where a "spy" from Deel allegedly infiltrated Rippling to steal competitive information.

They describe Rippling's elaborate "honeypot" trap to catch Deel's corporate spy and how this incident exemplifies the evolution of business conflicts from private disputes to public social media spectacles, highlighting workplace transparency's growing complexity.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Deel and Rippling Drama

(05:00) Rippling's Allegation: Spy in Dublin Office

(06:19) The 'Honeypot' Trap Explanation

(07:48) "That's Not a Honeypot, That's a Mousetrap"

(09:00) Corporate Espionage More Common Than People Think

(12:00) Going Public on Twitter as the "Master Stroke"

(14:00) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:16) New Era of CEOs Going to War

(17:15) The Next Phase: Everything Is Public Now

(19:24) The Spy Locks Himself in the Bathroom

(22:04) Sunlight Is the Best Disinfectant

Nolan and Kelli welcome back friend of the pod David Hanrahan, who's just 60 days into his new role as CHRO at SolarWinds. The conversation kicks off with candid reflections on the Transform 2025 conference - the good, the bad, and what's missing from HR conferences today. They also dig into David's challenges and learnings transitioning to his new role, and a discussion on the changes coming for L&D initiatives.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH DAVID, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

David: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidhanrahan/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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LINKS:

Solarwinds: https://www.solarwinds.com/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction(00:37) David's Take on Transform(03:33) The Grittiness of HR(05:42) Value of In-Person Relationships(08:50) Transform's Community Session(10:36) Blackjack, Craps, and the Games(11:28) David's New Role at SolarWinds(15:35) Sponsor: Metaview(17:29) G Suite vs Microsoft Outlook(18:00) Juggling New Job Responsibilities(20:35) Katie Burke's Self Reflection(22:18) Painful Changes and Lessons from Multiple CHRO Roles(25:03) The Weird Moment for L & D(28:55) Effective Leadership Development(33:41) David's BHAG: Leadership Development(35:29) Wrap

In another edition of 'Dear Heretics' Nolan and Kelli tackle talent calibration sessions. They address how HR needs to balance facilitation versus providing opinions and establish clear processes beforehand.

They explore calibration's dual purpose: ensuring consistent evaluation standards and developing forward-looking talent plans. Above all, calibration needs to be an iterative process requiring transparency and company-wide understanding to avoid becoming toxic or misunderstood.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:56) The Fine Line of HR Facilitation

(01:46) Setting Process Rules Before Calibration

(03:35) HR Should Opine with Objectivity

(05:47) The New York Times Test

(06:26) Sponsor: Metaview

(08:20) Purpose of Calibration Sessions

(09:37) Importance of Forward-Looking Discussions

(10:35) Calibration Process Flow

(12:16) Transparency Across the Company

(13:10) Building the Calibration Muscle

(14:27) Real-World Implementation

(15:30) Wrap

Kelli and Nolan are joined by Roxanne Petraeus, CEO of Ethena, to talk about her journey from the US army to founding an HR tech company. She shares her views on leadership, the distinction between training and learning, and building a culture of intellectual meritocracy in a remote-first environment.

The conversation explores how compliance training evolved from her military experiences, covers the role of Chief People Officers, and reveals how military discipline shaped her approach to building high-performance tech cultures without superficial perks.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH ROXANNE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Roxanne: https://www.linkedin.com/in/roxanne-bras-petraeus-2292b8109/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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RECOMMENDATIONS:

Ethena: https://www.goethena.com/

‘We’re not recording’ podcast with Roxanne Petraeus:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTcvuUiuTe9nFXLMIPy4gjHv67-bFl8Do

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:36) How Roxanne ended up in the Army

(03:29) Career path from Army to McKinsey to founder

(04:29) The insight behind Ethena's founding

(07:11) Problems with traditional LMS approaches

(10:04) Debate on employee vs company-driven learning

(14:00) Making training relevant to day-to-day work

(15:43) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:38) The best L&D: great managers and top performers

(20:47) Learning from people vs structured courses

(22:40) Hiring a CPO at an HR tech company

(24:45) Building a culture of intellectual meritocracy

(27:27) Founders set company culture, not HR

(28:44) The expanding role of modern CPOs

(33:08) Functional leaders' accountability vs HR

(35:19) CPO as strategic partner and executive coach

(37:55) Maintaining high talent density and expectations

(41:33) Leading a female-led company with high standards

(43:16) Thanksgiving with David Petraeus

(43:54) Wrap

Friend of the pod Colleen McCreary discusses some big news: her return to a CPO role at a remote-first public company (Confluent). She shares insights on navigating the first 90 days, organizational change, implementing a company-wide initiative to eliminate unnecessary processes, and gearing up for lots of 1:1s.

Colleen, Kelli, and Nolan discuss transparent leadership, building community in remote environments, and bringing humanity to workplace policies—all while balancing the challenges of joining an established company as an executive with a public reputation

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH COLLEEN, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Colleen: https://www.linkedin.com/in/colleenmccrearychiefpplofficer

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(2:28) Remote Work Authenticity Challenges During the Pandemic

(5:19) How the CPO Role Has Changed in Today's Market

(10:14) Joining a Public Company as CPO with a Public Persona

(14:29) Sponsor: Metaview

(19:51) Creating a "Remove the B******t" Company OKR

(25:41) Building Community in Remote-First Organizations

(28:25) Bringing Humanity to Crisis Response in HR

(30:17) Tackling Compensation Transparency as a New CPO

(31:02) Continuous Improvement Over Perfection in Leadership

(37:25) Balancing Multiple CPO Responsibilities While Driving Change

Nolan and Kelli discuss tech job search strategies, emphasizing proactive networking over mass applications., and recommend targeted outreach with concise value propositions that highlight business impact. They stress building relationships both inside and outside your company, maintaining professional connections, and adapting to a job market that increasingly demands quantifiable contributions.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

—

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) Struggling to Find a New Role

(01:02) Principle #1: Avoid Applying to Jobs

(01:46) The "Rolling Process" Approach

(02:34) Current Job Market Reality Check

(03:28) Value Proposition Design

(03:50) Targeted Application Strategy

(04:13) Cold Outreach Framework

(05:06) Why Cold Outreach Works

(06:15) Two Categories of Job Hunting

(06:41) Maximizing Your Current Role

(07:45) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:39) External Network Building

(10:41) When You Need a Job Urgently

(11:28) Research-Based Approach

(12:13) LinkedIn Networking Strategy

(12:52) The Best Time to Look for a Job

(13:39) Quantifying Business Value

(14:30) Cold Outreach Framework

(16:00) Referrals and Resource Lists

(16:42) The Importance of Preparation

(17:11) Current Job Market Assessment

(18:07) Wrap