“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan and Kelli get a behind-the-scenes look at Zapier's AI strategy with CPO Brandon Sammut. He demos some seriously impressive AI tools his team built—interview prep agents, automated workflows, performance tracking—and explains why they require AI skills from every new hire at their 730-person company. Make sure you also watch the video version on Substack and YouTube for the demo done by Brandon on Zapier Agent use cases.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH BRANDON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Brandon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandon-sammut-8147b76

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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RELATED LINKS:

Zapier: https://zapier.com/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:30) The Four-Level AI Fluency Rubric

(07:00) Pure Automation Examples (Non-AI)

(13:10) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:00) Bar Raiser Interview Prep Agent Setup

(20:20) Live Agent Trigger Demonstration

(21:10) Bar Raiser Interview Results & Discussion

(26:15) Performance Review Evidence Collection Setup

(34:10) Slack Emoji Workflow Demonstration

(35:30) Market-Based Adoption Philosophy

(36:00) One-on-One Meeting Coach Overview

(43:30) One-on-One Coaching Feedback Example

(44:00) Trust, Transparency & Implementation Strategy

(48:20) Wrap

In this week's 'Dear Heretics' segment, Kelli and Nolan examine the contested impact of AI on entry-level employment, featuring HR articles debating whether traditional junior roles are disappearing or evolving upward. The discussion explores practical AI implementation challenges, organizational inertia, and real-world examples of companies leveraging custom AI solutions for recruitment and decision-making processes.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

RELATED LINKS:

Behind the Curtain: Top AI CEO foresees white-collar bloodbath: https://www.axios.com/2025/05/28/ai-jobs-white-collar-unemployment-anthropic

Josh Bersin: No, Entry Level Jobs Are Not Going Away:

https://joshbersin.com/2025/05/no-entry-level-jobs-are-not-going-away/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:34) The White-Collar Bloodbath vs. Optimistic Takes

(01:53) Reality Check: Where's the Actual AI Implementation?

(02:35) The Puck Has Moved: Redefining Entry-Level

(03:31) Headcount Reality: Flat or Down Since 2022

(05:30) Coinbase: The Only Company Actually Doing It

(05:58) Sponsors: Planful & Metaview

(09:00) Human Inertia: The Real Barrier to AI Adoption

(10:47) The Custom GPT Success Story

(13:34) Top-Down Mandates Break Through Inertia

(14:00) Stop Building Programs, Start Experimenting

(16:49) The Biggest Alpha Opportunity Ever

(17:23) Wrap

Over the next few weeks, we're bringing you some Heretics 101 content - important refreshers on taboo topics that are core to navigating the CPO seat.

For today’s episode, we're revisiting an early conversation about how to fire C-suite executives that we had with CJ Gustafson from the Run the Numbers podcast. If you're in this business long enough, you're either going to have to fire an executive, or you're going to be the one getting fired. That's just reality. What started as a simple question turned into one of our most candid discussions about severance packages, golden parachutes, and layering.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CJ, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

CJ: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cj-gustafson-13140948

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:52) The First Steps: When to Exit a C-Suite Executive

(02:46) Decision vs. Discussion: Framing the Conversation

(05:29) The Fourth Scenario: Growth Outpacing Talent

(08:04) Compensation: The Spicy Details

(10:36) Pre-Negotiated Severance: Red Flag or Smart Move?

(14:50) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:49) Golden Parachutes: The Biggest Payouts

(20:47) Equity Acceleration and Exercise Windows

(22:35) Rest and Vest: The Perverse Incentive Problem

(24:12) Garden Leave Explained

(24:51) VCs and CEO Firings: The Reputation Game

(27:00) Advice for the Departing Executive

(30:13) Controlling the Narrative

(31:43) Wrap

Today we're sharing an episode of the 10x Recruiting podcast which features guest Samy Aumar, the People Systems Excellence Manager at Qonto, shares his actual AI workflows live with Nolan Church and Siadhal Magos (CEO of Metaview). The goal of this series is to demonstrate practical and attainable AI implementation, especially for those executives at companies with AI mandates (like Shopify and Fiverr). This episode highlights Samy's use of AI agents which can be built without coding skills in just an afternoon, transforming recruiting workflows from 2-3 day processes to same-day execution.

Want more AI demos? Subscribe to The 10x Recruiting podcast from Metaview on YouTube, Apple, or Spotify for more interviews like this one.

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LINKS:

Samy’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/samyaumar/

Qonto: https://qonto.com/en

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TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Introduction & Series Launch

(00:34) The AI Sophistication Gap

(01:34) Key Takeaways Preview

(02:03) No Engineers Needed

(03:00) B-Minus Outputs Beat Blank Pages

(04:19) Episode Introduction

(05:17) From Experimentation to Central Workflow

(06:00) Use Case 1: AI-Quality Interview Transcripts

(07:00) Introduction to Dust AI Agents

(07:43) Job Ad Agent Demonstration

(09:00) Building Agents Without Coding

(11:33) Uploading Intake Notes

(13:15) Time Savings: 3 Days to 24 Hours

(14:00) Backend Configuration

(17:17) Use Case 2: Market Intelligence Agent

(19:08) Specialized vs General AI Research

(21:22) Research Results & Accuracy

(23:42) Managing AI Expectations

(26:00) Parallel Processing & Multitasking

(28:22) Qonto’s AI Mandate

(29:27) Champion-Based Implementation

(30:33) Hiring for AI Curiosity

(31:38) Product Roadmap Inspiration

(33:01) Future Vision: Meta Platforms

(33:23) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church talk to Danielle Mathis, Vice President, Global Talent & HRBP of Clari, revealing how fraudsters orchestrated an elaborate recruitment scam, deceiving 12 job seekers with fake offers while harvesting their personal data. The shocking conversation exposes the dark reality of deepfake candidates infiltrating hiring processes and why traditional recruitment methods are dangerously obsolete in our AI-manipulated world.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

📝 Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

📋 Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH DANIELLE, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Danielle: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mathisdanielle/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Clari: http://www.clari.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:58) The Fraud Discovery

(02:38) The Scale Emerges

(03:55) Victim Impact Assessment

(07:24) Silver Lining - Hiring from the Chaos

(08:31) The Criminal Motive Revealed

(09:54) FBI Investigation Process

(11:13) Law Enforcement Response

(11:54) Second Wave - Text Message Scams

(13:22) Industry-Wide Problem Recognition

(14:14) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:18) Mitigation Strategies Implemented

(20:18) Enter the Deepfake Candidates

(21:27) Firsthand Deepfake Experience

(22:36) New Defense Protocols

(24:12) The Inbound Application Dilemma

(26:26) Adding Friction to Combat Fraud

(28:27) Future-Proofing Against AI Threats

(29:03) Wrap

This episode of HR Heretics explores executive search from both sides: being recruited and managing recruitment. Neil Frye, former CPO at Google and Dropbox, and current Chief People Officer at Dotmatics, sits down with Nolan Church and discuss withdrawal strategies, internal versus external search criteria, conscious leadership frameworks, style compatibility, and treating job searches like mutual acquisitions rather than one-sided selections.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

📝 Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

📋 Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NEIL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Neil: https://www.linkedin.com/in/neil-frye-he-him-54755319/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Dotmatics:

http://www.dotmatics.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:18) Neil's Executive Search Journey

(02:46) The Candidate Perspective: Why Neil Withdraws from Searches

(04:18) Using AI to Level Up Interview Confidence

(05:18) The Danger of Always Having Answers

(06:30) Executive Search as Matchmaking

(08:25) Defining Non-Negotiables Before You Start

(10:50) Don't Mistake Polish for Fit

(13:25) Pushing Back on Development Stories

(13:35) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(17:00) Building Executive Search from the CPO Side

(18:56) Internal vs External Search: The 90% Rule

(20:38) The Network Test for External Firms

(22:00) Conscious Leadership Framework

(25:25) Style Compatibility in Executive Hiring

(29:32) The Tactile Learning CEO Pattern

(33:18) Candidate Due Diligence Strategies

(34:21) Requesting More Interview Panel Members

(36:12) Real-World Work Examples

(37:14) Time and Relationships Trump Speed

(39:26) Building Budgets Before Accepting Offers

(40:48) Final Advice: Stop Waiting to Be Picked

(41:22) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich talk to Cynthia "Baz" Shrauner, former Meta HR executive and current Head of People at Electric Capital. Baz discusses her unconventional career move of voluntarily demoting herself twice to focus on work she genuinely enjoyed rather than traditional leadership roles. She candidly explores the tension between ego and fulfillment, Meta's hiring excesses during COVID and subsequent layoffs, and the complexities of DEI initiatives in corporate environments, offering rare insider perspective on Silicon Valley's operational realities.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

📝 Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

📋 Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH BAZ, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Baz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cynthia-bazlamit-shrauner-683767/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Electric Capital:

https://www.electriccapital.com/

Link to Baz’s LinkedIn post about getting demoted in Facebook:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/cynthia-bazlamit-shrauner-683767_7-years-into-my-time-at-facebook-i-was-demoted-activity-7321208807441731587-8SYh?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAWcjXgBb3Jw6dX16PD9lRJSsxfgqVAqZLw

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:59) The Demotion Story Begins

(04:00) The Emotional Reality

(06:00) Finding the Right Replacement

(07:59) Learning What You Love vs. Loathe

(10:58) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:58) Demoting Yourself Again: The Christine Ellis Story

(19:03) What Makes Great Leaders

(22:21) The Reality Check: Not Everyone Can Do This

(27:59) Self-Awareness and Ego Management

(35:24) Meta's COVID Hiring Spree

(42:08) The Layoffs: What Really Happened

(51:37) DEI Programs: From Helpful to Distracting

(57:41) Wrap

This segment examines the resurgence of "996" work culture (9 AM to 9 PM, six days weekly) among Silicon Valley's early-stage founders. Nolan analyzes the tension between demanding work schedules and talent attraction, drawing from Glen Evans' LinkedIn critique. He argues these intensive cultures suit certain life stages and career priorities, emphasizing that both high-intensity startups and work-life balance approaches can coexist as conscious trade-offs rather than moral imperatives.

NOTE: Kelli is away this week spending time with family

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

Link to Glen’s LinkedIn Post:

https://www.linkedin.com/posts/glenevans_startups-leadership-workculture-activity-7328919826930814976-pEy7?utm_source=share&utm_medium=member_desktop&rcm=ACoAAAWcjXgBb3Jw6dX16PD9lRJSsxfgqVAqZLw

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:13) Intro

(00:31) 996 Culture Invades Silicon Valley

(01:23) Greylock's Brutal Take

(04:06) Does More Hours Equal More Productivity?

(05:35) No Substitute For Time

(07:18) My DoorDash Grind Days

(08:30) Why I Can't Do It Anymore

(10:06) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(13:06) The 24-Year-Old Founders Story

(14:15) "Don't Hire Me, I'm Too Old"

(15:30) I Actually Miss Those Days

(16:33) Life Is Trade-offs

(16:55) The In-Person Only Founder

(18:47) Humans Need Pain To Grow

(19:12) Rule Breakers Build The Future

(19:30) Appreciate Founder Honesty

(19:53) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Fidelma Butler, Chief People Officer at Couchbase, a NoSQL cloud database platform company. They talk about how to build effective L&D programs by defining clear leadership standards, focusing resources on senior leaders, and integrating learning into daily work instead of traditional training sessions.

Fidelma emphasizes that L&D needs to be agile, continuously evolving, and solve actual business problems rather than existing as a separate "nice-to-have" function.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH Fidelma, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Fidelma: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fidelmabutler/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

Couchbase:

https://www.couchbase.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39) The L&D Challenge at Scale

(01:19) Tailoring L&D to Your Organization

(03:00) Defining Good Leadership

(06:00) Creating Leadership Language and Framework

(08:00) Why L&D Struggles - Making Squishy Things Tangible

(10:00) Meeting People Where They Are

(12:00) Optimizing L&D for Top Performers

(16:32) Sponsor: Planful | Metaview

(19:30) Engagement Surveys Done Right

(25:00) When Surveys Conflict with Leadership Vision

(28:00) Leaders Teaching Leaders

(31:30) Coaching Strategy and Deployment

(35:30) The Future of L&D Roles

(39:30) Getting Career Development Wrong

(42:30) The Promotion Obsession Problem

(46:00) Wrap

In this episode of HR Heretics, Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich interview Sally Thornton, founder of Forshay. Sally shares insights on the fractional executive placement business she's built since 2011. Thornton emphasizes that successful fractional work requires consultative skills, boundary management, and rapid trust-building rather than simply scoped part-time arrangements. If you're thinking of going fractional, this is a must-listen discussion.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

Support HR Heretics Sponsors:

Planful empowers teams just like yours to unlock the secrets of successful workforce planning. Use data-driven insights to develop accurate forecasts, close hiring gaps, and adjust talent acquisition plans collaboratively based on costs today and into the future. ✍️ Go to https://planful.com/heretics to see how you can transform your HR strategy.

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH SALLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Sally: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallythornton/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

Forshay: https://forshay.com/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:58) What Forge Does

(02:33) Trust Barriers in Fractional Work

(03:25) The Relational Approach

(04:36) Buyer Mindset Challenges

(06:10) Marketplaces vs. Agents

(10:00) The Adverse Selection Problem

(10:56) The Dirty Secret of Fractional

(11:45) Different Interview Approach

(13:03) Consulting Background Advantage

(13:53) Sponsors: Planful | Metaview

(16:57) The Ideal Buyer

(17:26) Early vs. Late Stage Company Challenges

(18:24) CFOs Make Better Clients

(18:59) Transparent Pricing Model

(21:41) Hourly Rate Guidelines

(22:41) W2 vs. 1099 Considerations

(23:27) The Honeymoon Phase

(24:52) Managing Client Expectations

(26:46) Beyond Filling Open Roles

(29:08) The Assessment Process

(34:29) Evolution from Interim to Fractional

(37:05) Advice for New Fractional Execs

(38:15) The Black Hole Complaint

(40:11) Career Self-Management

(42:11) Sustaining a 15-Year Business

(43:06) Wrap