Ever wonder what happens when HR leaders get real about C-suite scrutiny?

Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as they spill the tea on transforming those dreaded "show me the numbers" moments into power moves. Turns out, the secret sauce isn't hiding from spreadsheets—it's owning them with style.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:14) Increasing Scrutiny of HR budgets from CEOs, CFOs, and Board Members

(01:50) Stakeholder Management and Proactive Planning

(04:42) Assume Good Intent and Take Ownership

(06:35) Earned Trust and Common Experience

(08:05) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:12) New Roles and Re-establishing Credibility and the CFOs Perspective

(10:36) Advice and Next Steps

(12:07) Closing and Outro

From pioneering parental leave strategies to 3 AM workout sessions, Warner Bros Discovery's SVP of People Donald Knight reveals how vulnerability, authenticity, and physical discipline shape exceptional leadership.

Donald joins Kelli and Nolan in a candid conversation about evolving HR, squandered DEI opportunities, and building lasting relationships in hyper-growth environments.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

RECOMMENDED PODCAST:

🎙️ Unpack Pricing - Dive into the dark arts of SaaS pricing with Metronome CEO Scott Woody and tech leaders. Learn how strategic pricing drives explosive revenue growth in today's biggest companies like Snowflake, Cockroach Labs, Dropbox and more.

_

KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Donald: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donaldfknight/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:39) Donald's initial reluctance to join HR and his perspective shift

(02:32) Evolution of the HR profession

(04:06) Pushback against employee-centric HR practices

(07:22) The "war for talent" and its aftermath

(10:53) The focus on immutable traits in diversity initiatives

(14:05) Sponsor: Metaview

(15:17) Importance of company stances and differentiation

(19:15) Donald's paternity leave plan and its impact

(25:35) The recruiting process and its unexpected outcomes

(32:45) Donald's experience working with founders

(39:50) Donald's favorite interview questions and their rationale

(44:30) Donald's fitness journey and its importance

(49:20) Wrap

Didier Elzinga, Culture Amp's CEO, drops bombshell insights about why most leaders get growth wrong, reveals shocking data about manager vs. leader impact, and explains why treating feedback like an all-you-can-eat menu is destroying companies.

Didier sits down with Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for a conversation about company culture, data, and mapping the world of work on two axes—trust versus mission.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

RECOMMENDED PODCAST:

🎙️ Unpack Pricing - Dive into the dark arts of SaaS pricing with Metronome CEO Scott Woody and tech leaders. Learn how strategic pricing drives explosive revenue growth in today's biggest companies like Snowflake, Cockroach Labs, Dropbox and more.

_

KEEP UP WITH DIDIER, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Didier: https://www.linkedin.com/in/didierelzinga

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(02:50) From Harry Potter to CultureAmp CEO

(04:51) CultureAmp in the Film Industry & Anonymous Feedback

(08:40) Culture-First Companies & the Importance of Resilience

(13:24) Current Trends in Employee Engagement & Expectations

(15:12) Sponsor: Metaview

(16:24) The Future of Employer-Employee Relationships

(19:20) Enduring Truths in Culture & Growth

(21:13) Growth, Ambiguity, and Leadership

(23:54) Data-Driven Insights & Addressing Gender Gaps

(27:20) The Director to VP Transition & Hard Lessons

(31:45) Influencing Change & the Power of Data

(33:55) The Value & Limitations of Engagement Surveys

(37:45) Defining Strategy & the Feedback "Workout"

(39:01) CultureAmp's Non-Negotiables & Growth

(43:07) The Power of Storytelling & Authenticity

(46:32) Wrap

How do you navigate a founding CTO's transition when they're struggling to scale? Kelli and Nolan share hard-won wisdom on avoiding common pitfalls: don't rush to judgment, build trust first, and respect the deep bonds between founders. Instead of plotting replacements, focus on supporting growth - and remember that even the best transitions happen through relationships, not force.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:52) Avoid Premature Judgments

(04:43) Nuance and Relationship Building

(07:43) Sponsor Message: Metaview

(08:55) Further Discussion: Investing in Existing Leadership

(11:25) Additional Insights: Truth and Trust

(13:02) The Risk of Premature Action

(14:23) Summary and Emotional Dynamics

(14:46) Board Involvement and Conclusion

(15:37) Wrap

Melanie Naranjo, Chief People Officer at Ethena, joins Kelli and Nolan to tackle the surge in employee litigation facing modern companies.

In an era where employees are increasingly using legal terms like 'discrimination' and 'retaliation,' how can companies balance protecting themselves from frivolous lawsuits while ensuring legitimate grievances are properly addressed?

Explore how social media, changing workplace expectations, and generational shifts are fueling this trend, while offering practical insights on navigating these challenges. The conversation balances protecting employee rights with managing unfounded claims, providing valuable perspectives for HR professionals and business leaders trying to build fair, transparent workplaces.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH MELANIE, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Melanie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melanie-naranjo/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:10) Rising Employee Litigation

(03:25) Traditional & Contrarian Responses

(06:10) Deeper Issues & Lack of Transparency

(07:30) Subjectivity & Company Liability

(09:30) Litigation as a Trend & Setting Expectations

(11:40) Employee Perspective & Open Dialogue

(15:40) Company Burden & Employee Expectations

(15:43) Sponsor: Metaview

(18:10) Clear Expectations & Self-Selection

(21:40) Internal Training & Consistency

(23:20) Value of Community & Legal Counsel

(26:10) Key Takeaways & The Bambi Golden Rule

(28:08) Wrap

Today Kelli and Nolan tackle a real-world HR career challenge: a candidate who received feedback that while they could handle their current role, the hiring manager was unsure about their ability to scale with company growth.

Drawing from their extensive backgrounds in recruiting and HR leadership, they help listeners navigate everything from interview feedback to career growth, offering insider perspectives that challenge traditional HR thinking and empower professionals to take control of their career narrative.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at

https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:00) Dear Heretics Question - Scaling HR

(02:45) Understanding Hiring Manager Requirements

(04:24) Focus on Aptitude and Mindset

(04:58) Recruiters' Current Challenges

(06:13) Anticipate Feedback and Be Proactive

(07:00) Highlight Strengths and Address Gaps

(07:35) Proactive Preparation for Interviews

(08:22) "Show Up With A Solution"

(08:40) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:52) Value of HRBP Experience

(10:47) Don't Underestimate Your Experience

(11:02) Narrative is Key

(11:25) HR and Sales Parallels

(11:46) Focus on Personal Narrative

(12:13) Gain Experience Inside Your Company

(13:36) Turn Feedback into Growth

(14:05) Architect Your Own Experience

(14:18) Wrap

How do you lead product when your CEO is the product visionary? Pendo's Chief Product Officer Trisha Price reveals the delicate dance of setting boundaries with founder-CEOs, the evolution of HR from gatekeeper to strategic partner, and why she uses AI to write letters to her 102-year-old grandmother. A candid conversation about power, trust, and the changing face of tech leadership.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Trisha: https://www.linkedin.com/in/trisha-price-3063081/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Pendo: https://www.pendo.io/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:20) Navigating a Founder-CEO, Product Guru Dynamic

(03:00) Establishing Boundaries and Trust

(06:40) The Importance of a Lengthy Recruiting Process

(09:40) Assessing Product Leaders

(14:40) Managing Stakeholder Input and AI Pressure

(17:50) Managing the Tension Between Sales and Product

(20:10) Navigating the AI Hype Cycle

(24:20) Tricia's Personal Use of AI

(26:40) Emerging Female Executives in Tech

(30:40) The Future of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DE&I)

(36:00) The Evolution of HR and the "Department of No"

(40:50) Working with a Great HR Leader

(43:40) Wrap

On Election Day 2024, Nolan and Kelli examine how to navigate an increasingly polarized workplace during a contentious election. They discuss the decline of 'presidential' discourse, the impact of social media on political rhetoric, and practical strategies for business leaders managing divided teams.

Their candid conversation offers insights on maintaining professionalism and unity when half the country faces inevitable disappointment.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

—

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:13) The Election and Preparing for a Divisive Outcome

(04:00) Supporting the Winner

(05:10) Homogeneous Support and the Undoing of Progress

(08:12) Sponsor: Metaview

(09:35) Social Media and Mental Health

(10:20) The Addiction of Election Results

(11:25) The Importance of Routine and Mental Health

(12:20) TikTok and Chaos

(12:21) Confusing Voting Laws

(12:53) Historical Context and Election Integrity

(14:00) Navigating a Divided Workplace

(14:25) Setting Expectations Before the Election

(18:04) Wrap

Former Dashlane HR leader Ciara Lakhani shares her unfiltered journey from New York to Paris tech, debunking myths about French business culture while revealing the art of cross-cultural leadership. From smoke breaks with works councils to earning trust through authenticity, Ciara offers practical wisdom on navigating international business dynamics and building bridges between American and French work cultures.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops new publication: https://www.turpentine.co/exclusiveaccess

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

KEEP UP WITH CIARA, NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Ciara: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ciaralakhani/

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINKS:

Elevate People:

https://elevatepeople.io/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(01:50) Ciara's move to Paris in 2020

(04:54) Challenges of being an HR exec in another country

(05:53) Stereotype against French HR people

(07:08) Communication style in France

(08:30) Assimilating with French HR professionals

(10:30) Generalizations about France

(11:45) Learning the nuances of French labor laws

(13:35) Navigating HR in different countries

(15:18) Sponsor: Metaview

(17:18) Punitive government in France

(18:39) Being a translator in HR

(19:50) Working with lawyers

(20:45) Org politics in France

(23:04) Unpacking the co-founder story

(23:50) Org navigation and politics in Paris

(27:30) Earning trust in a new culture

(29:50) French tactics and meeting people where they are

(30:00) Ciara's transition to being independent

(31:38) Assimilating into French culture

(33:00) Wrap

In this segment of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan discuss "empty suit executives" – a term coined by product leader Tyler Hogge, highlighting executives who manage from above but scoff at doing the work themselves.

Is the era of the status-seeking executive dead? Explore how AI, increased competition, and evolving workplace culture are killing the 'empty suit' leader. From Silicon Valley's trenches to corporate boardrooms, discover why authenticity is replacing authority, and why rolling up your sleeves might be the new key to power in modern business.

*Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected]

HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine.

--

Support HR Heretics Sponsor:

Metaview is the AI assistant for interviewing. Metaview completely removes the need for recruiters and hiring managers to take notes during interviews—because their AI is designed to take world-class interview notes for you. Team builders at companies like Brex, Hellofresh, and Quora say Metaview has changed the game—see the magic for yourself: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics

—

KEEP UP WITH NOLAN, + KELLI ON LINKEDIN

Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/

Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/

—

LINK/S:

The Empty Suit Executive by Tyler Hogge

https://tylerhogge.com/2024/10/16/the-empty-suit-executive/

—

TIMESTAMPS:

(00:00) Intro

(00:29) The Empty Suit Executive

(03:43) Shift in Management Styles and the Rise of Doers

(05:34) Clash Between Founders and "Empty Suit" Executives

(06:17) The Changing Dynamics of Large Tech Companies

(07:17) Venture-Backed Companies as a Bellwether

(09:00) Sponsor: MetaView

(10:06) Recognizing Our Own "Empty Suit" Tendencies

(11:30) Building a Brand and Leading by Example

(12:40) New Era of Leadership

(13:30) Adaptability in a Competitive Landscape

(14:04) The Rise of AI

(14:36) Wrap