At first glance, believing the earth is flat and dreams of colonizing Mars couldn't seem further apart. But both are built on the same story — that reality can be escaped if we just think big enough.

This episode looks at two beliefs that seem opposite — flat earth and space colonization — and asks what they reveal about our urge to escape reality rather than reckon with it. One is the belief that humans could, and should, live in space: that we're destined to leave our planet behind and colonize the stars. The other is the belief that we're not on a planet at all—that the Earth is actually… flat. While one is held by fringe figures and the other by some of the most powerful men on the planet, both rest on the premise that humans are exceptional, unbound by limits, or somehow separate from the earth.

To explore these modern myths, we're joined by two guests: astrophysicist Tom Murphy and documentary filmmaker Daniel J. Clark, whose film Behind the Curve follows prominent figures in the fringe—but growing—flat Earth movement. Together, we'll examine the stories we tell ourselves about the world we inhabit, how we determine what's real or possible, and what kind of world these stories create.

CITATIONS

• Do The Math [blog]

• Behind the Curve [film] (2018)

• Return to Space [film] by (2022)

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI

All rights reserved.

This is the first 30 minutes of a longer conversation. The full conversation is available on the Human Nature Odyssey Patreon.

===

28 years after the Rage Virus spread across the UK, the British Isles have been completely quarantined from the rest of the world. Zombies roam the forests and countryside while the survivors huntwith bows and arrows and make do in their fortified village. But for 12-year-old Spike, this is all normal. 28 Years Later is director Danny Boyle's sequel to the classic zombie thriller 28 Days Later.

In this bonus conversation, Jake Marquez and Maren Morgan from the Death and the Garden podcast join me to explore the post-industrial world of 28 Years Later.

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

Picture the future 100 years from now. What do you imagine? Flying cars? Space colonies? AI talking toasters?

But if we can't sustain an endlessly growing economy - even with a transition to green energy - what does a realistic and positive future look like?

Alex joins the hosts of Crazy Town to imagine life in the 22nd century: walking from our family farms into communal villages, living off the land in a low-energy lifestyle, taming our pet donkeys, and resisting our local warlords.

It's not the future the movies told us to expect. But it might be a future we enjoy living in.

CITATIONS

• Crazy Town podcast

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI

All rights reserved.

What does a livable future look like 100 years from now? If we unlocked unlimited green energy, what would we actually do with it? And are our dreams of a renewable-energy utopia sometimes just as delusional as the fossil-fueled drill baby drill mentality?

In this two-part series, Alex is joined by the hosts of Crazy Town—Jason Bradford, Rob Dietz, and Asher Miller—a research biologist, ecological economist, and Executive Director of the Post Carbon Institute, who bring a depth of knowledge as well as dad jokes. Together, they explore the implications of exponential energy growth on a finite planet, the hard truths behind a renewable-energy future, and which expectations we need to rethink as we chart a path forward.

Along the way, we encounter an Olympic athlete attempting to toast bread using a bicycle. We also step inside a billionaire's latest invention: a time-travel device promising to fling us ahead one hundred years. Will the future be a gleaming techno-utopia powered by infinite green energy? A scorched wasteland of collapse? Or something else entirely—a lower-energy world that future generations might actually enjoy living in?

Stay tuned for Part 2 where we take the full leap into the time machine and imagine what life a century from now could really look like in a post high-energy future.

CITATIONS

• The Toaster Challenge, Olympic Cyclist Vs. Toaster: Can He Power It?, 2015
• Tom Murphy, Galactic-Scale Energy, Do the Math, 2011.
• Tom Murphy, Limits to Economic Growth, Nature Physics, August, 2022.
• Solar Freakin' Roadways, Indiegogo, 2014
• Crazy Town podcast

ADDITIONAL MUSIC

• Modified version of "Also sprach Zarathustra, Op. 30" by Strauss, from classicals.de — licensed under CC BY 4.0

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI

All rights reserved.

This is the first 30 minutes of a longer conversation. The full conversation is available on the Human Nature Odyssey Patreon.

===

In 1991, a group of artists, inventors, and visionaries set out to live inside a sealed desert enclosure for two years—a bold experiment to see if humans could survive in a self-contained environment. The project made headlines, sparked controversy, and became a cultural sensation. Spaceship Earth is the riveting documentary that tells the nuanced story of the people behind this audacious experiment.

In this bonus conversation, Jake Marquez and Maren Morgan from the Death and the Garden podcast join me to explore the legacy of Biosphere 2. Together, we discuss what makes a tribe function, and why the experiment's worth revisiting today.

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

A horrific zombie apocalypse has ravaged the world—but hardly anyone seems to notice. One lone podcast sets out to interview those navigating this strange new reality: from people attending mindful zombie retreats and binging zombie media, to those stockpiling shotguns and fortifying bunkers, to others disappearing into the woods to build something entirely new.

This is an original script written by Alex Leff.

VOICE ACTING CREDITS

Jason Bradford

Rob Dietz

Jake Gibson

Maia Kinney-Petrucha

Jessie Lian

Jake Marquez

Asher Miller

Maren Morgan

Ray Tannheimer

Maggie Weiler

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI

All rights reserved.

This is the first 30 minutes of a longer conversation. The full conversation is available on the Human Nature Odyssey Patreon.

===

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, there was an old Republic that, out of fear of a phantom menace, voted to consolidate authoritarian power—unknowingly sealing its own demise. It transformed into an Empire, bent on wielding its weapons of mass destruction to conquer all who dared resist.

But don't worry—this is just a story. It has nothing to do with us. After all, it all happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. Right?

Jake Marquez and Maren Morgan are fellow podcasters, filmmakers, and friends. We continue our mid-month bonus series where we take something from the zeitgeist and view it through a broader civilizational lens.

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

What insights can our ancient past shine on our political future?

Were hunter-gatherers the ultimate traditionalists—or proto-communists?

Is it possible hunter-gatherers lived with greater equality and more political freedom than most societies today?

And why do both communism and capitalism, despite being sworn enemies, rest on the same assumption of endless growth?

Psychologist Jonathan Haidt argues that humans are wired with both liberal and conservative tendencies—and that societies function best when those forces stay in balance. Where can we find the liberal and conservative elements in our hunter-gatherer past? And how might it reframe our political future?

In The King Is Dead, Now What? we explored modern political history. Now we zoom out, connecting the dots to a much broader civilizational story.

Plus, we're debuting a new segment: The State of Civilization, featuring our up-and-coming optimistic reporter Jeff Opolis, reporting on the fantastic news coming from civilization right now. Everything is great! Or… is it?

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

CITATIONS

Haidt, Jonathan. "The Moral Roots of Liberals and Conservatives." TED, 2008.

Fiddler on the Roof. Directed by Norman Jewison, United Artists, 1971.

"Net Energy and Sustainability, or… The Story of the Overstuffed Strongman." Crazy Town podcast, Post Carbon Institute, 2021.

Ryan, Christopher. Civilized to Death: The Price of Progress. Avid Reader Press, 2019.

"Ken Burns." The Joe Rogan Experience, episode 1745, Spotify, 2022.

Cronon, William. Changes in the Land: Indians, Colonists, and the Ecology of New England. Hill and Wang, 1983.

Marx, Karl. Critique of the Gotha Programme, 1875.

Hyde, Lewis. The Gift: Imagination and the Erotic Life of Property. Vintage, 1983.

Kimmerer, Robin Wall. Braiding Sweetgrass: Indigenous Wisdom, Scientific Knowledge, and the Teachings of Plants. Milkweed Editions, 2013.

Norberg-Hodge, Helena. Ancient Futures: Learning from Ladakh. Sierra Club Books, 1991.

Ho, Fred. A World Where Many Worlds Fit. Big Red Media, 2008.

World Health Organization. (2024, July 24). Hunger numbers stubbornly high for three consecutive years as global crises deepen.

Colquhoun, P. A Treatise on the Police of the Metropolis.

Elhacham, Emily, et al. "Global Human-Made Mass Exceeds All Living Biomass." Nature, vol. 588, no. 7838, 2020, pp. 442–444.

Additional music for this episode by Adam Tell, from the albums Peripheries, This Time With Feeling, and Object Impermanence. Courtesy of Adam Tell. All rights reserved.

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI

All rights reserved.

This is the first 30 minutes of a longer conversation. The full conversation is available on the Human Nature Odyssey Patreon.

===

Jake Marquez and Maren Morgan are fellow podcasters, filmmakers, and new friends. Starting today, the three of us are joining forces to create monthly bonus episodes where we'll seek to better understanding this self-destructive civilizational 10,000 year predicament we find ourselves in.

In this episode we discuss artificial intelligence. We found that despite all our philosophical overlap we were advocating two different approaches when it came to AI. I was exploring the idea of a cautious adoption, Maren argued for more of an abstinence policy.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, every good conversation ends with the same conclusion: oh yeah, balance. We find ourselves there eventually. But the road we take is filled with insights, questions, and jokes.

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

Christopher Ryan joins the odyssey to discuss human nature - shouldn't be surprising - it's in the name! What's universal, what's cultural, and what's personal? Can we really change the culture we live in? And are some societies better suited to human well-being than others?

Christopher Ryan is the New York Times bestselling author of Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships as well as the book Civilized to Death: The Price of Progress. He also hosts the long-running podcast, Tangentially Speaking," which has been downloaded over 30 million times.

You can learn more about Christopher here.

If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you listen, leave a review, and join us on Patreon for exclusive audio extras, writings, and notes.

For full episode transcripts, essays, and additional context, visit: resilience.org/human-nature-odyssey-podcast

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI

All rights reserved.

1. Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop

https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI

2. iTunes:

https://music.apple.com/us/album/celestial-soda-pop/3242445?i=3242425

3. Spotify:

https://open.spotify.com/track/2THDVIVytLuGX7S7UghuC1?si=20ea63807bba401f