We are honoured to bring to Accidental Gods, a recording of three of our generation's leading thinkers in conversation at the Festival of Debate in Sheffield, hosted by Opus.

This is an unflinching conversation, but it's absolutely at the cutting edge of imagineering: this lays out where we're at and what we need to do, but it also gives us roadmaps to get there:  It's genuinely Thrutopian, not only in the ideas as laid out, but the emotional literacy of the approach to the wicked problems of our time. 

Now we have to make it happen.

Kate Raworth is a renegade economist, author of the groundbreaking book, Doughnut Economics: 7 ways to think like a 21st Century Economist and founder of the Doughnut Economics Action Lab which is seeing companies, cities and nations around the world working towards an economy that prioritises flourishing of people and planet ahead of growth for growth's sake.  Kate is a Senior Teaching Fellow at Oxford University’s Environmental Change Institute, where she teaches on the Masters in Environmental Change and Management. She is also Professor of Practice at Amsterdam University of Applied Sciences.

Indy Johar is an architect, co-founder of 00 on behalf of which he cofounded  multiple social ventures from Impact Hub Westminster to Impact Hub Birmingham. He has also co-led research projects such as The Compendium for the Civic Economy, whilst supporting several 00 explorations/experiments including the wikihouse.cc, opendesk.cc.  More recently he  founded Dark Matter Labs - a field laboratory focused building the institutional infrastructures for radicle civic societies, cities, regions and towns. Dark Matter works with institutions around the world, from UNDP (Global), Climate Kic, McConnell (Canada), to the Scottish Gove to Bloxhub (Copenhagen). Indy has taught at various institutions from the University of Bath, TU-Berlin; Architectural Association, University College London, Princeton, Harvard, MIT and New School. 

James Lock is the Co-Founder and Managing Director of Opus Independents Ltd, a not-for-profit social enterprise, working in culture, politics and the arts. Opus works to encourage and support participation, systemic activism and creativity with project strands that include Now Then Magazine & App, Festival of Debate. Opus Distribution, the River Dôn Project and Wordlife. 

James was on the podcast quite recently - in episode #279 - and we talked about the upcoming Festival of Debate and the fact that, amongst many other outstanding conversations, he'd be talking with Kate and Indy who are easily up their in my pantheon of modern intentional gods.  Afterwards, James and I discussed the possibility of our bringing the recording of that conversation to the podcast - and here we are.  Enjoy!

Opus Independents https://www.weareopus.org/
Festival of Debate https://festivalofdebate.com/

Kate Raworth https://www.kateraworth.com/
Doughnut Economics Action Lab https://doughnuteconomics.org/
Doughnut Economics book https://www.hive.co.uk/Product/Kate-Raworth/Doughnut-Economics--Seven-Ways-to-Think-Like-a-21st-Century-Economist/21739630

Indy Johar https://about.me/indy.johar
Indy's blog at DML https://provocations.darkmatterlabs.org
Dark Matter Labs https://darkmatterlabs.org/
Indy on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/indy-johar-b440b010/
Indy on Substack https://indyjohar.substack.com/

James Lock on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-lock-964a8014/

Rob Shorter of the Doughnut Economics Action Lab on Accidental Gods #41 https://accidentalgods.life/doughnut-economics-action-lab/
Indy on Accidental Gods #205 https://accidentalgods.life/becoming-intentional-gods-claiming-the-future-with-indy-johar-of-the-dark-matter-labs/
James on Accidental Gods #279 https://accidentalgods.life/now-then-building-networks-of-citizen-power-with-james-lock-of-opus-in-sheffield/

What we offer - Accidental Gods, Dreaming Awake and the Thrutopia Writing Masterclass
If you'd like to join us at Accidental Gods, this is the membership. This is where we endeavour to help  you to connect fully with the living web of life.
If you'd like to come along to an Ask Manda Anything hour on Sunday 8th June, you do have to be a member (but you can join for £1 and then leave again!)
If you'd like to join our next Gathering 'Becoming a Good Ancestor' (you don't have to be a member) it's on 6th July - details are here.
If you'd like to train more deeply in the contemporary shamanic work at Dreaming Awake, you'll find us here.
If you'd like to explore the recordings from our last Thrutopia Writing Masterclass, the details are here

We all know the future rests upon us building heart-grounded, spirit-led communities that link humanity to the Web of Life. We know that the key to this is building reciprocal relationships with our food and the land from which it comes.  Doing this is…harder.  So this week, we're speaking with Abel Pearson of Glasbren.  Abel is a friend of the podcast - we last spoke in the depths of the pandemic when he was farming 3 acres and beginning to feed the local community in ways that helped the people in a ten mile radius really to connect with the spirit of the land on which their food was grown.  Now, Abel and the team are farming 138 acres of National Trust property, and still producing food for people in the local area - but so much more than that, they are building communities of place, passion and purpose, centred on the land and the cycles of the seasons and the ways we can build authentic relationship, full of reverence for the many, many layers of life in, on and under it the soil.  He says that everything he does now is for his young son and the children to come, in the hope that they might yet enjoy abundant foodscapes, clean rivers and regenerative cultures.

Glasbren https://www.glasbren.org.uk/
Support the Farm https://www.glasbren.org.uk/farm-supporter
Glasbren courses https://www.glasbren.org.uk/courses
Episode #25 with Abel https://accidentalgods.life/nurturing-our-bodies-and-souls/

If you'd like to join us at Accidental Gods, this is the membership.
If you'd like to join our next Gathering (you don't have to be a member) it's on 6th July - details are here.
And if you'd like to train more deeply in the contemporary shamanic work, you'll find us here. 

We've known for decades that the 'Yell, Tell and Sell' strategy of belittling people, endeavouring to cajole—or shame—them into some kind of change doesn't work - in fact it can't work.  It's not how we're wired.  Cognitive neuroscience has been telling us this for decades but it's only recently that people have begun to listen. One of those who has been speaking in the wilderness for a long time—and is now finally being heard—is this week's guest, Renée Lertzman.

Dr. Renée Lertzman is a researcher, advisor and strategist who translates relational psychology to change our approach to our planetary crisis. Applying her graduate training as a psychosocial researcher, she designs frameworks and methods, grounded in public health, clinical psychology and neurosciences, that guide people to take action and create impact on climate and sustainability issues. 

Over the past two decades, Renée has worked with global leaders, startups, governments, and mission-driven companies—including Google, IKEA, the California Academy of Sciences, and WWF—helping them navigate the emotional complexities of climate engagement. She’s also the founder of Project InsideOut, an initiative that equips changemakers with psychologically grounded resources for collective transformation.

This is the key to our survival. We need to learn how to engage ourselves and each other in ways that will transform ourselves and each other. We need to bring serious emotional literacy to the table so that we can create the containers, and attune to the anxieties and aspirations of people around us. We need, above all, to equip people to make sustained and sustainable change.  This is the core of Renée's work and hearing her talk about it in depth is the first step to making it happen.  Enjoy!

Learn more at reneelertzman.com and projectinsideout.net.
Renée on LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/reneelertzman/
Renée's TED talk https://www.ted.com/talks/renee_lertzman_how_to_turn_climate_anxiety_into_action

Our world is more magical than we know - more than we can know.  Increasing numbers of us are realising that the 'citadel theory of mind' where we see ourselves as isolated units within the boundaries of our own skulls is not how the world works.  But if it isn't, then how do we make sense of the worlds beyond consensus reality? How do we engage with the web of life and all that's around it in ways that are respect, reciprocal and generative?

Robert (Bob) Falconer is a long time IFS practitioner and trainer.  He is the author or co-author of many books, including Many Minds, One Self which he co-wrote with Dick Schwartz, who is credited with founding Internal Family Systems Therapy. For me, this is the form of therapy that leans closest into spiritual work, particularly into shamanic work, and Bob's book, The Others Within Us: Internal Family Systems, Porous Mind and Spirit Possession is a ground-breaking work that blows open the fallacies of the citadel mind model and opens us to a wide spectrum of other realities in other cultures, all of which acknowledge the existence of non-human, non-embodied energies that have at least a degree of agency and that can interact with human beings in ways that are either to our benefit or our detriment. Very few are neutral.

So as we hurtle towards the edge of a cliff, pushed by our culture's endemic inability to engage with our own traumas, talking to Bob seemed pretty much essential.  We talk quite a lot about IFS, which is Internal Family Systems therapy and at the start, we open up more of what that's about, though I do encourage you to read the book Bob co-wrote with Dick Schwartz.  We also - and this is a trigger warning - explore some of Bob's own life history of harrowing sexual and physical abuse so if this is likely to trigger parts of you, then please only listen when you're feeling grounded and well resourced.  Beyond that, we range far, wide and deep across the boundaries where science meets spirituality and philosophy meets psychotherapy, all of which is squarely in the area that I think needs most work, for all of us. 

Bob's website: https://robertfalconer.us/
Bob on YouTube https://robertfalconer.us/youtube-channel/

Bob's Books:
Out now: The Others Within Us: Internal Family Systems, Porous Mind, and Spirit Possession
OUT ON 22nd MAY 2025 - Opening the Inner World: Spiritual Healing, Internal Family Systems and Emanuel Swedenborg
Co-written with Dick Schwartz: Many Minds, One Self by Richard Schwartz and Robert Falconer

Other books
Thomas Zinser Soul-Centered Healing
Lloyd DeMause The History of Childhood 
David Gordon White - Daemons are Forever

Dreaming Awake Contemporary Shamanic Training: https://dreamingawake.co.uk
Accidental Gods Membership https://accidentalgods.life/join-us/
Accidental Gods Gatherings https://accidentalgods.life/gatherings-2025/

We are living through a time between stories—where the old economic narratives of scarcity, extraction, and separation are crumbling, and a new one is seeking to be born. At the heart of this transition is the question: What do we truly value, and how do we express that value in ways that nourish life?

Imagine a society where every act of care, contribution, and kindness is not only appreciated but economically recognised. Schools, councils, and local businesses become part of an ecosystem where value flows back and forth amongst the people who create it. This doesn’t replace wages or public services—it enhances them.

This is a good step of the way towards a culture that's predicated on solid core values of compassion, integrity and generosity of spirit, and where we value what we care about, rather than what we can grab.  So how do we build this in ways that work - and do so inside the current system?

This week's guest, Peter Kemp, calls himself a professional dot-joiner.  Peter is a UK-based digital innovator and social entrepreneur whose career has spanned web technology, media production, civic engagement, and alternative economics. He was a co founder of HullCoin, and currently serves as CEO of Value Squared (V2) Ltd and the Social Value Academy, organisations dedicated to reimagining how we understand, measure, and reward social value.

As part of his work, Peter has helped to establish Citizen Coin - a digital, values-led complementary currency designed explicitly to recognise and reward social, environmental, and civic contributions that often go unpaid and undervalued in the mainstream economy.  

He says, 'The current economic model—predominantly built around fiat currencies and centralised systems—is increasingly failing to deliver equitable outcomes, community cohesion, or environmental resilience. Citizen Coin offers a new approach: a digital token earned through pro-social actions—such as volunteering, participating in community initiatives, or engaging in sustainable practices. These actions are verified by local authorities, public sector bodies, or accredited third-party partners. Unlike traditional money, which is often scarce and controlled, Citizen Coins are abundant where social value is being generated.'

Crucially, Citizen Coin is not a replacement for fiat currency. Instead, it operates as a complementary economy—a parallel system that strengthens local resilience, incentivises positive behaviour, and redistributes recognition for care work and civic participation.  More than a technology, this offers a shift in worldview—a move from scarcity to abundance, from extraction to contribution. 

As we face overlapping crises of inequality, climate, and mental health, complementary economies like this are no longer radical—they are necessary.  Citizen Coin is not just about digital infrastructure or economic reform. It is about choosing a new story—one where we honour the unseen, uplift the essential, and move from domination to stewardship. It is about birthing an economy in service to life.

Value Squared https://www.value-squared.com/#about
Citizen Coin https://www.citizencoin.uk/

If you're interested in joining us at a Gathering, or in the Membership, please follow the links below:
Accidental Gods Gatherings https://accidentalgods.life/gatherings-2025/
Accidental Gods Membership https://accidentalgods.life/join-us/

All flourishing is mutual, that's a given. And yet the schisms in our culture, the tribal divides and limbic hijack seem to grow deeper and more powerful by the day. 

It doesn't have to be like this.  We do have the tools of connection, of genuine listening, of offering trust to gain trust and offering respect to gain respect, we just need to know how  - and when - to put them into practice.  If we're going to move forward into that future we'd be proud to leave behind, we need to start practicing these skills as if the world depended on them - because it does.  

This week's guest is someone who practices and teaches the deep, transformative skills of conflict resolution daily.  Carm Aufderheide has a master’s degree in conflict and dispute resolution (CRES), and qualifications in positive reinforcement dog training from the Karen Pryor Professional Dog Training Academy (KPA-CTP and CPDT-KA) and in Separation Anxiety from Malena DeMartini, bringing both to her consultations in her NorthStar Training Solutions in Oregon. 

Together, these put her right in the middle of quite fierce conflicts that rage around the dog training world over the various styles of dog training, most of which boil down to: do we use force or don't we?  This is a perfect microcosm of the greater macrocosm of our torn and wounded world and Carm brings her dual skills to this with grace and intelligence and a fierce compassion that is a joy to encounter.  

I first came across Carm on the Functional Dog Collaborative podcast and was blown away by the clarity of her thinking, and her capacity to live true to her convictions. I made contact later that day and we set up time for the podcast.  That was roughly six months ago, when the world was a different place. 

Now, recording on the day of the Pope's death, as our reality spirals deeper into chaos, it feels ever more essential that we learn these skills.   Carm suggested a whole set of reading before we recorded and I have put a link to all the books, as well as Carm's NorthStar website in the show notes.  

Northstar Training Solutions https://www.northstartraining.info/
Street Epistemology https://www.streetepistemology.com/
Albert Mehrabian's 7-38-55 Rule https://www.rightattitudes.com/2008/10/04/7-38-55-rule-personal-communication/
Carm on the Functional Dog Collaborative podcast

Carm's Recommended reading
How Minds Change by David McRaney
Supercommunicators by Charles Duhigg
High Conflict by Amanda Ripley
The Book of Beautiful Questions by Warren Berger
Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss
We Can Work it Out by Marshall Rosenberg

If you're interested in joining us at a Gathering, or in the Membership, please follow the links below: 
Accidental Gods Gatherings https://accidentalgods.life/gatherings-2025/
Accidental Gods Membership https://accidentalgods.life/join-us/

Our legacy - or status quo - media is owned and run by billionaires for billionaires and the stories they promote are the ones that will keep us all in line. How do we shift the global narrative towards a future of mutual flourishing?

It is axiomatic of this podcast that stories – the good and the bad – are what got us to where we are. We are a storied species. Everything we do arises from the stories we tell ourselves and each other about ourselves, each other and our relationship with the communities of place, purpose and passion around us. Often, we're seeking respect and the pride of knowing we've contributed to the things we care about.  But many of us are living in media echo chambers which have no connection to the other bubbles around us.

So how do we bridge the gaps? How do we created a media eco-system, a commons, that works for the people by the people, growing stories of agency and empowerment, motivation and direction in, by and from our communities?

This week's guest, Debs Grayson, is a facilitator, researcher and organiser living in Sheffield. She works for Opus Independents, where she spends most of her time developing relatable, accessible metrics to track progress towards the Sheffield City Goals, and also on the People's Newsroom Initiative (PNI). PNI is a project housed within Opus broadly focused on journalism innovation, and our recent work has been reimagining journalism as 'storytelling commoning' - collective practices of sharing and weaving together stories that can support a just climate transition.

With a background in media research and campaigning for a transformed media system, she previously worked for the Media Reform Coalition running the 'BBC and Beyond' campaign, which also developed ideas of a 'media commons'. Alongside her role at Opus, she is currently working with the independent press regulator IMPRESS on various projects, including presenting Dis/Mis, a podcast on dis- and mis-information and how we build a trustworthy media. 

Opus: The People's Newsroom https://www.weareopus.org/the-peoples-newsroom
Elinor Ostrom 8 Rules for Managing a Commons https://earthbound.report/2018/01/15/elinor-ostroms-8-rules-for-managing-the-commons/
Hastings Commons https://hastingscommons.com/
Amam Cymru https://www.amam.cymru/
Amam Cyrmu post on the People's Newsroom https://amam.cymru/the-peoples-newsroom/what-is-a-storytelling-commons-and-why-is-it-so-hard-to-talk-about
Dis/Mis podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/dis-mis-exploring-misinformation-in-modern-media/id1775649531

Accidental Gods Gatherings https://accidentalgods.life/gatherings-2025/
Accidental Gods Membership https://accidentalgods.life/join-us/

'If you're not changing the numbers, you're not changing the world.' So says this week's guest, Katie Patrick. Katie Patrick is a Silicon Valley based environmental engineer, climate action designer, and author of How to Save the World: How to Make Changing the World the Greatest Game We've Ever Played, now taught in Harvard University’s graduate program and top recommended reading material by UNEP.

Katie specializes in designing innovative apps, dashboards, and campaigns that drive environmental action by leveraging insights from behavioural science and game design. Her work combines rigorous research with creative execution to develop solutions that inspire sustainable behaviors and measurable impact. She has advised the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), Google, the U.S. State Department, the University of California, the European Commission, Dassault Systèmes, the Institute for the Future, Magic Leap, and Stanford University, as well as numerous startups focused on behavior design for environmental action.

Katie is passionate about biophilic design and envisions a future shaped by ecotopian principles. Her thought leadership has been recognized globally; she delivered a TEDx talk in 2020 and spoke at the UN General Assembly in 2021 on the role of creativity, optimism, and imagination in environmental change.

In our conversation, we range wide and deep through and across the ways each of us can bridge the divides in our cultures and bring change to our local worlds - and thus to the wider world, exploring the power of gamification, evidence base and feedback loops to create real, enduring change. 

 Hello World https://www.helloworlde.com/
Climate Action Design School https://www.helloworlde.com/climate-action-design-school
Katie on Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/katie-patrick/
Katie's TED Talk. https://youtu.be/GOWYwEtzeH4/
Katie's Book https://uk.bookshop.org/p/books/how-to-save-the-world-katie-patrick/1671034
Katie's Podcast https://open.spotify.com/show/6QaoYkmNqLSsn89zWMw3nl?si=540f4604608d4652

Accidental Gods Gatherings https://accidentalgods.life/gatherings-2025/
Accidental Gods Membership https://accidentalgods.life/join-us/

Suppose we accept that the current system is not broken - it is doing what it was always designed to do - which is to shovel wealth and power from the many to the few at a human scale and from the more-than-human world to the industrial/technical maw of predatory capitalism at an ecological scale.

This is a death cult and it is in its death throes, but it will take us all down with it if we let it.

Suppose then, we accept that, while the current system may not be broken, it is absolutely not fit for purpose, if that purpose is the continuation of complex life on earth; if it is the flourishing of humanity as an integral part of the web of life; if it is a world predicated on values of compassion, decency, integrity, generosity-of-spirit and absolute confidence in our place as conscious nodes in the web of life.
IF this is the case - then we need a whole new system. We need a movement that will bring this system into being.

In this solo podcast, Manda explores what the baselines of a new system might look, feel and work like.

Manda's Substack post  https://substack.com/home/post/p-158280401
Jan Andrew Bloxham post https://substack.com/home/post/p-157874742
Jason Hickel 'No the US is not a beacon of democracy' https://substack.com/@jasonhickel/note/p-158661867

If you want to share the journey with us, we're here:
Accidental Gods Gatherings https://accidentalgods.life/gatherings-2025/
Accidental Gods Membership https://accidentalgods.life/join-us/

We grow up thinking we want to be happy (or at least, not-sad).  But happiness isn't enough. What we need is wellbeing, and as Dr Mark Fabian quotes in the dedication to his book, Beyond Happy, "Wellbeing is about wholeness, not happiness, and wholeness is so much more demanding than happiness.'

So what is wholeness, and what does it demand of us? As the old world crumbles and the new is struggling into being, what steps can each of us take to bring ourselves ever closer to a sense of being complete?

This week's guest, Dr Mark Fabian, is Associate Professor of Public Policy at the University of Warwick, and an affiliate fellow at the Bennett Institute for Public Policy at the University of Cambridge. In, Beyond Happy, his first book for a general audience, he explores how evolution has wired us to keep happiness just out of reach, leaving us perpetually stuck on a happiness treadmill.  Instead of striving to escape it, he argues that we should focus on making the treadmill a place we want to be.  Finding this place of relative equanimity begins with listening to our emotions, discovering intrinsic motivation and pursuing our authentic values.  Mark coaches us through this process of self-actualisation and then knits it together into a collective, cooperative way of being, building relationships that matter and that work.

Mark's book will be available in April - here: https://bedfordsquarepublishers.co.uk/book/beyond-happy/

Or order from your favourite local independent bookshop.

Please remember to put a review up on Amazon and GoodReads as well as anywhere else you feel is worthwhile. (this applies to every book you read and like - algorithms matter)

and

If you want to share the journey with us, we're here:
Accidental Gods Gatherings https://accidentalgods.life/gatherings-2025/
Accidental Gods Membership https://accidentalgods.life/join-us/