We can learn a lot about Trump and Musk from studying other strongmen in other countries and at other times, especially those who have entered politics after careers in media and business.

This interview, recorded on the afternoon of June 6 as the terrible two of the Oval Office were feuding online, is an amazing crash course in the Italian strongmen Mussolini and Berlusconi, with Professor Ruth Ben-Ghiat.

She is a leading scholar of fascism, authoritarianism, propaganda, and how democracies can stay resilient, Professor of History and Italian Studies at New York University, and the author of numerous books in English and Italian.

Her most recent book, Strongmen: Mussolini to the Present, examines how how illiberal leaders use propaganda, corruption, the persecution of scapegoats, and machismo. As the author of the first book to look at how Trump compares to other authoritarians of the last 100 years, Ruth is the perfect guest for Rhyming Chaos to help us understand how Musk and Trump function. And how we might defeat them.

The Rhyming Chaos podcast is produced by Jeremy Goldkorn and Maria Repnikova, and edited by Cadre Scripts. The theme music is Paper Boy, composed and performed on the guzheng by Wu Fei. Our closing music is Erik Satie’s Gymnopédie No. 1, arranged and performed by Wu Fei. Our cover art is by Li Yunfei.

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