Immaterial: 5,000 Years of Art, One Material at a Time

How did one tree become a world-famous tonewood for guitars?

Deep in the forests of Belize, a wood importer from Florida discovered a rare tree that produced a sound unlike anything guitar virtuosos had ever heard before. But why does this material cast such a spell? And at what cost does that come? 

Guests:

Ellen Ruppel Shell, journalist

Ken Parker, luthier

Reuben Forsland, luthier

Steve Cardenas, guitarist

Jennifer Anderson, historian and author of Mahogany: The Cost of Luxury in Early America

Althea SullyCole, former Fellow in The Met’s Department of Musical Instruments. Assistant Professor of Ethnomusicology in the Schulich School of Music at McGill University

Featured artwork:

Ken Parker, Archtop guitar, 2016: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/677213

For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialwood

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy.

Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith.

Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Mueller.
Original music by Austin Fisher and Salman Ahad Khan.
Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman.

Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund.

Special thanks to Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong, curator Jayson Dobney, conservator Manu Frederickx, educator David Freeman, Dick Boak, Gabriela Guadalajara, and curator Alyce Englund.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

An archaeologist and an artist walk into a dump… 

For most of us, we throw our garbage to the curb, and it disappears from our lives. But to some, that’s just the beginning of trash’s story. In this episode, we follow two people who seek the truth in trash—an archaeologist who excavates ancient rubbish in Turkmenistan and an artist who spotlights the people responsible for making trash vanish.

Guests:

Martina Rugiadi, associate curator, Department of Islamic Art, The Met

sTo Len, artist

Andy Blancero, development officer, Freshkills Park Alliance

Featured artworks:

Chakaia Booker, Raw Attraction, 2001: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/492175

Bowl with Green, Yellow, and Brown Splashed Decoration. Excavated in Iran, Nishapur, 10th century: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/449348

Stone Oil Lamp. Excavated in Iran, Nishapur, 9th century: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/449328

Painted Dado Panels. Excavated in Iran, Nishapur, 9th century: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/449862

James Hampton, The Throne of the Third Heaven of the Nations’ Millennium General Assembly, ca. 1950-1964: https://americanart.si.edu/artwork/throne-third-heaven-nations-millennium-general-assembly-9897

Fragment of a Wall Painting with a Fox or a Dog (and Painted Layers). Excavated in Iran, Nishapur, 12th century: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/708593

For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialtrash

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy.

Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith.

Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Mueller.
Original music by Austin Fisher.
Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman.

Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund.

Special thanks to Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong, Avery Trufelman, Brinda Kumar, Navina Haider.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What can the tiny chia seed reveal about the history of oil painting?

For centuries, one of the most prized mediums of art at museums like the Met has been oil painting, a European tradition embodied by the so-called "old masters." This is the story of how the oil of the chia seed — yes, the same one that’s a staple add-on for smoothies and acai bowls — and its origins in Mexico could help us look at oil painting and our world with fresh eyes. 

Guests:

Elsa Arroyo, Mexican paintings conservator

Ronda Kasl, Curator of Latin American Art, The American Wing, The Met

Monica Katz, Conservator, Hispanic Society

José Luis Lazarte Luna, Assistant Conservator, Paintings Conservation, The Met

Roger Danilo Carmona, General Manager, Kremer Pigments Inc.

Julie Arslanoglu, Research Scientist, The Met

Mario Gaspar, Lacquerware artist

Featured artworks:

José Manuel de la Cerda, Turnus Provoked into War by Aeneas, ca. 1764: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/841656

Juan Correa, The Virgin of Valvanera, ca. 1710: https://www.denverartmuseum.org/en/object/2008.832

Juan Correa, Allegory of the Holy Sacrament, ca. 1690: https://www.denverartmuseum.org/en/object/2015.570

Juran Correa, Angel Carrying a Cypress (Ángel portando un ciprés), ca. 1680-1690: https://collections.lacma.org/node/1034999

For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialchia

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy.

Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum,  Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Laura Barth, Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith.

Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Muller.
Original music by Austin Fisher.
Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman.
Special thanks to Adwoa Gyimyah-Brempong.

Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund.

And special thanks to Aleks Popowich, Alfonso Miranda Marquez, Beatriz Ortega, Marco Leona, and Avery Trufelman.

The research presented within has been made possible in part by the National Endowment for the Humanities: Democracy demands wisdom.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What happens when our most intimate possessions end up in art museums?

Blankets comfort and keep us warm. They accompany us through our lives. They are keepers of some of our most intimate stories. We look at a group of artists who harness this power of blankets and quilts as totems for memory, community and cultural survival.

Guests:

Loretta Pettway Bennett, Gee's Bend quilt maker

Marie Watt, artist

Ally Barlow, associate conservator, Department of Textile Conservation, The Met

Louisiana P. Bendolph, Gee's Bend quilt maker

Louise Williams, board president, Freedom Quilting Bee Legacy

Featured artworks:

Qunnie Pettway, Housetop, ca. 1975: https://www.soulsgrowndeep.org/artist/qunnie-pettway/work/housetop

Marie Watt, Untitled (Dream Catcher), 2014: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/849042

Louisiana P. Bendolph, Housetop quilt, 2003: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/654095

Annie E. Pettway, “Flying Geese” Variation, ca. 1935: https://www.soulsgrowndeep.org/artist/annie-e-pettway/work/flying-geese-variation

Willie "Ma Willie" Abrams, Roman Stripes quilt, ca. 1975: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/654081

For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialblankets

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy.

Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith.

Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Muller.
Original music by Austin Fisher.
Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman.
Sensitivity listening by Adwoa Gyimyah-Brempong.

Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund.

Special thanks to Eva Labson, Scott Browning, Curator Amelia Peck, and Avery Trufelman.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What is hidden in the 'empty' spaces of an art museum?

The Met is more than a museum of art. It is a city unto itself: population 2,000, with a transient population of 5 million. The Met is 21 buildings nested together like puzzle pieces, and it takes 400,000 light bulbs to illuminate all the spaces. But who actually changes those light bulbs? In this episode, peek behind the curtain and meet the people who maintain the hidden ecosystem of The Met.

Guests:

Marco Leona, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, The Met

Eric Breitung, research scientist, The Met

Anna Serotta, conservator, Objects Conservation, The Met

Louisa Lam, security officer, The Met

Frida Escobedo, architect

Featured artworks:

Coffin of Irtirutja, 332–250 BCE. Egypt: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/551163

Vincent Van Gogh, Cypresses, 1889: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/437980

For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialspacepart2

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy.

Our production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith.

Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Muller.
Original music by Austin Fisher.
Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman.

Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund.

Special thanks to Maureen Catbagan, Iva Keselicova, Michael Millican, Elizabeth Reyes Moreno, Sarah Freshnock, Avery Trufelman, and Jennie C. Jones.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

How does an artist give presence to absence?

Bronze, wood, paint, and stone—classic materials for art making. But what if you're trying and struggling to convey a vast expanse, a terrible loss or a haunting presence? In this episode we'll look at two artists who turned to the material of space to express what nothing else could.

Guests:

Rachel Whiteread, sculptor

Brinda Kumar, Associate Curator, Modern and Contemporary Art, The Met

Shania Hall, photographer

Featured artworks:

Rachel Whiteread, Untitled (Three Tables), 1995/1996: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/816239

Shania Hall, Where the Vast Sky Meets the Flat Earth (unofficial title), ca. 2015: https://www.metmuseum.org/articles/framing-plains-indians

For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialspaceart

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy.

Production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith.

Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Muller.
Original music by Austin Fisher.
Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman.

Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund.

Special thanks to Exhibition Design Manager Dan Kershaw, Associate Curator Patricia Norby, and Curator Sylvia Yount

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What happens when the unbreakable breaks?

Throughout art museums around the world, you’ll find ancient stone statues of rulers and marble monuments immortalizing noblemen. These objects were made to survive decay and destruction, to remain intact and whole. But from the moment that stone is extracted from the earth, it is bound to become a more fragmented version of itself–chiseled, chipped, and sometimes shattered over time. 

In this episode, we examine the many ways that stone breaks. How can a statue’s cracks and cavities tell a more complex story of our humanity?

Guests:

Jack Soultanian, Conservator, Objects Conservation, The Met

Carolyn Riccardelli, Conservator, Objects Conservation, The Met

Robert Macfarlane, nature writer and mountaineer

Erhan Tamur, former Andrew W. Mellon Postdoctoral Curatorial Fellow, The Met

Sarah Graff, Curator, Ancient Near Eastern Art, The Met

Featured artworks:

Tullio Lombardo, Adam, ca. 1490–95: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/197822 

Statues of Gudea, Neo-Sumerian, ca. 2120–2090 BCE: https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/329072

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/324061

https://collections.louvre.fr/en/ark:/53355/cl010119539

For a transcript of the episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterialstone

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camille Dungy.

Production staff includes Salman Ahad Khan, Ann Collins, Samantha Henig, Eric Nuzum, Emma Vecchione, Sarah Wambold, and Jamie York. Additional staff includes Julia Bordelon, Skyla Choi, Maria Kozanecka, and Rachel Smith.

Sound design by Ariana Martinez and Kristin Muller.
Original music by Austin Fisher.
Fact-checking by Mary Mathis and Claire Hyman.

Immaterial is made possible by Dasha Zhukova Niarchos. Additional support is provided by the Zodiac Fund.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

What is hiding in the material choices of artists and makers?

Immaterial, The Metropolitan Museum of Art’s marquee podcast, is back with eight more episodes that reveal the emotional origins and transformative power of art through the lens of materials.

This season we learn from Mexican artisans keeping centuries-old traditions alive; we go to ancient Mesopotamia to understand time travel; and we find a mythical tree in Belize that’s been making music for decades.

From traditional materials like stone and wood, to more abstract ones like space and time, the podcast explores how these materials shape the inner lives of artworks and the human experiences they reflect.

Season 2 of Immaterial drops June 4.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Grab a cup of tea and join us for a bonus episode on tarot. We learn about the cards from their patrician origins to the present day, when tarot is being used to subvert limiting tropes of gender and sexuality. A tarot deck begs some questions: what makes something art? And who decides? Some of the answers may surprise you. We meet the artists behind a queer, Southern, collective tarot deck, and hear from an educator at The Met how tarot can be a source of both beauty and resistance. Plus: Camille Dungy, host and tarot skeptic, gets a slightly apocalyptic reading from a fellow poet. Producers Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan take us behind the scenes: probing something that's not quite a material, but whose story is too dynamic not to share.

Guests:

Suhaly Bautista-Carolina, creator of Moon Mother Apothecary and senior managing educator of audience development, Education, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Marco Leona, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Allison Rudnick, associate curator, Drawings and Prints, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Alexander Chee, poet, author, and professor of English and creative writing, Dartmouth College
Camille Dungy, poet and host of Immaterial

Slow Holler Tarot Artists:

JB Brager
Corina Dross
Miranda Javid
Nic Jenkins

Objects mentioned in this episode:

Niki de Saint-Phalle (American, 1930–2004). Niki de Saint Phalle tarot cards, 2002. 22 cards: illustrations ; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm) ; Width: 3 1/8 in. (8 cm) + 1 booklet (48 unnumbered pages ; Height: 5 1/2 in. (14 cm)). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York (N6853.S255 S25 2002)

For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong and Eleanor Kagan.

Special thanks to Holly Phillips, Jessica Ranne-Cardona, Maria Schurr, E. Henderson, and Rachel Pollack.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

In the second part of our alchemical journey, we meet what ancient philosophers called the “noble” metals: mercury, silver, and gold. How did a nineteenth-century set designer harness one of the most captivating—and toxic—materials in the world and wind up as one of the fathers of photography? When does a coin go from a piece of stamped metal to an act of faith? And how did gold in Ghana go from dust in the water to a touchstone of language, story, and the strength of an empire?

Guests:

Yaëlle Biro, former associate curator for the Arts of Africa, African Art in The Michael C. Rockefeller Wing, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Daniel Carrillo, studio photographer
Benjamin Harnett, independent scholar of ancient technology and digital engineer, The New York Times
Marco Leona, David H. Koch Scientist in Charge, Scientific Research, The Metropolitan Museum of Art
Irene Soto Marín, economic historian and assistant professor of ancient history, Harvard University
Yaw Nyarko, professor of Economics, New York University
Stephen Pinson, curator, Photographs, The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Objects featured in this episode:

Works of Louis-Jacques-Mandé Daguerre (various)
Roman coins (various)
Staff of Office: Figures, spider web and spider motif (ȯkyeame), 19th–early 20th century. Ghana. Akan peoples, Asante group. Wood, gold foil, nails, H. 61 5/8 x W. 5 3/4 x D. 2 1/4 in. (156.5 x 14.6 x 5.7 cm). The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York, Gift of the Richard J. Faletti Family, 1986 (1986.475a-c)

For a transcript of this episode and more information, visit metmuseum.org/immaterial

#MetImmaterial

Immaterial is produced by The Metropolitan Museum of Art and Magnificent Noise and hosted by Camile Dungy. This episode was produced by Adwoa Gyimah-Brempong.

Special thanks to Alan Shapiro, Bobby Walsh, Lauren Johnson, and Kwabena and Rose Gyimah-Brempong.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.