Justin and Jon are joined by Jason Fried to talk about:

• The philosophy behind their new book Shape Up.
• Does Basecamp's approach to 6-week cycles differ for smaller teams?
• "Long projects destroy morale. When things don't ship, you get frustrated." – Jason Fried
• Why projects ship late (it's human nature).
• Why work is like a hill.
• How they make product decisions at Basecamp.
• How do you know what you should work on next?
• Why they don't believe in backlogs.
• "That feeling of 'there's nothing to do, but there's everything to do' shouldn't be happening." – Jason Fried
• "You need a system at some point. When you have two people, you can hack your way to anything. But as soon as you grow, you'll need a system." – Jason Fried
• "What we have is not a perfect system. And even if it was, we don't execute these things perfectly." – Jason Fried

★ Thanks to our sponsors:

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Show notes:

• Jon's launch announcement tweet (from 2018).
• Read Basecamp's new book Shape Up.
• Jason Fried commented on this Linkedin post.
• Hill charts.
• Listen to Rework Podcast's "Shape Up Roundtable."
• Derek Sivers' new article: My old clothes don't fit

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