In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Ev Williams—someone whose work has profoundly shaped the modern internet. Ev co-founded Twitter, created Medium, and before all that, built Blogger, the original blogging platform (and the one where my own blog, Startup Lessons Learned, still lives today).

We cover a wide range of topics, but at the heart of our conversation is this: what does it mean to resist short-term pressures and build with long-term integrity?

Ev reflects on the early days of the internet, the cultural shifts inside big tech, and what happens when the systems we design begin to shape us in return. He also shares the thinking behind his latest venture, Mozi—an app designed to make it easier for people to meet up in person, with less friction and more intention.

In our conversation today, we talk about the following topics: 

• The value of building strong relationships (and how they compound over time)

• The inside story of Google’s acquisition of Blogger

• Google’s “don’t be evil” policy, and a case for radical honesty 

• Why Ev believes social media’s downsides were inevitable

• How data obsession can kill creativity

• Ev’s “feel it” principle and what it means for entrepreneurs

• The backlash against Medium’s login wall, and what it taught him about friction and trust

• How strong governance and intentional culture can safeguard a company’s mission

• Ev’s latest project, Mozi—an app that takes the hassle out of meeting up in person

• And much more!

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Where to find Ev Williams:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/evanwilliams/

• X: https://x.com/ev

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Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

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In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(02:29) How Ev feels knowing his company, Blogger, acquired by Google, is still going 

(06:01) Why many of Ev’s businesses have endured 

(13:26) Ev’s early years growing up on a farm and how he ended up at O’Reilly 

(20:46) The internet’s shift from idealism to reality—and why we still can’t see its full impact

(28:00) Motivations driving founders, and how Ev realized it’s about creativity 

(30:55) Google’s ‘don’t be evil’ policy, and the importance of creating high bar values

(37:45) Ev’s thoughts on what went wrong with social media and if AI companies can do better

(45:00) The protective role of good governance

(54:10) Insights gleaned from the book Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned 

(1:00:14) Why MBA-thinking and metric obsession are culture killers

(1:05:23) A story about trusting in a hypothesis before data is there 

(1:06:35) Medium’s failure with the login pop-up 

(1:09:58) How good governance and strong culture empower torchbearers 

(1:12:34) An overview of Mozi, an app that helps make in-person meetups easier

(1:16:10) Lightning round

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You can find the transcript and references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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Production and marketing by⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.