Misha Esipov is the co-founder and CEO of Nova Credit. In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I talk with Misha about what it takes to build a company inside one of the hardest parts of finance to break into.

Misha immigrated to the United States from the Soviet Union as a child and watched his parents rebuild their lives from scratch. Years later, after a conventional path through math, finance, and business school, that experience resurfaced as a question that wouldn’t let go. Why do capable people lose access to credit simply because they cross a border?

Nova Credit began by tackling that problem directly, starting with international students and immigrants who were being shut out of the system. Then the pandemic hit. Immigration stopped, and the company’s core market disappeared almost overnight.

Misha shares what it was like to lead through that moment, how crises clarify where leaders should focus their energy, and how Nova Credit found a way forward without abandoning its original purpose.

If you’re interested in entrepreneurship and what it really takes to build something that lasts, this conversation is for you.

—

Brought to you by:

⁠⁠Framer⁠⁠: Build better sites, faster at ⁠⁠https://www.framer.com/design⁠⁠ Use code "ERIC"

—

Where to find Misha Esipov: 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mishaesipov 

• X: https://x.com/MishaEsipov

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(01:47) How Misha immigrated to the United States and found his path to entrepreneurship 

(03:30) Summers in the Soviet Union and why so many scientists left 

(06:01) Why Misha studied math and entered finance 

(07:06) What Misha noticed was different when he moved to the West Coast

(08:22) How Nova Credit got started and why international students couldn’t access credit

(12:03) Steve Blank’s approach to interviewing 

(13:11) Why Nova Credit intentionally started with a small market

(15:52) What credit bureaus do and what it’s like entering a highly regulated industry

(18:00) The leap of faith required to build this kind of business

(22:16) What inspired Misha to take the leap

(24:13) How the pandemic upended Nova Credit’s business

(28:01) How Nova Credit responded when immigration came to a halt

(31:00) What it was like trying to rebuild while losing momentum and people

(36:24) How customer conversations guided the rebuild

(38:37) Why Nova Credit added a new focus without abandoning the original

(41:32) How Nova Credit’s products came together as a platform

(43:13) What Nova Credit’s evolved mission became

(45:05) How trust is built with consistency 

(47:51) Where Nova Credit is today

(49:29) Why Nova Credit focuses on principles over politics

(52:20) The importance of building for the long term 

(53:47) Why consistency only works when paired with value and mission

(59:57) Misha’s advice for aspiring entrepreneurs

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Zita Cobb grew up on Fogo Island, a remote fishing community off the coast of Newfoundland that operated for centuries without cash. Her childhood was shaped by a deep sense of place, the collapse of the inshore fishery, and a belief that communities survive through mutual care. When she left to study business, and later helped build JDS Uniphase into one of the most successful high-tech companies of its era, she carried those ideas with her. The rise and fall of the telecom bubble gave her a front-row view into what happens when profit and speed outrun purpose, sending her searching for a different model of development.

In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Zita to talk about that journey and the philosophy that guides her work today. We discuss why she believes business is a tool for solving real problems and how communities can reclaim agency by understanding their own assets. Zita explains how Shorefast grew into a holistic set of enterprises on Fogo Island, including the Fogo Island Inn, which reinvests all surpluses into local culture and economic development. We talk about how communities can build their own pathways to development and why Zita believes lasting change begins close to home.

—

Brought to you by:

⁠Framer⁠: Build better sites, faster at ⁠https://www.framer.com/design⁠ Use code "ERIC"

—

Where to find Zita Cobb:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zita-cobb

• Website: https://shorefast.org

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(02:15) How her father nudged her to leave Fogo Island

(04:46) What life was like growing up on Fogo Island

(08:37) A short history of Fogo Island

(11:15) Leaving home to recover from tuberculosis

(13:15) The experience of leaving for university

(15:04) Early challenges at university

(16:17) What education looked like on Fogo Island

(18:01) How adapting to modern life shaped Zita’s systems thinking

(20:24) Zita’s travels and early roles at Texaco and Shell

(22:30) How Zita got into tech 

(24:05) How Zita learned that technical possibility alone is not enough

(26:57) Joining JDS and taking it public 

(30:54) The rise and fall of the telecom bubble 

(34:08) Why taking JDS public felt like a mistake and what she learned about putting profit first

(38:52) Zita’s father’s legacy 

(41:45) Why Zita spent five years sailing after ending her tech career

(44:47) Zita’s work distributing radios in Rwanda 

(46:32) Why she went back to Fogo Island to spark economic development 

(49:26) The beginnings of Shorefast

(53:11) How the ownership model protects Shorefast’s mission from the pitfalls of money

(56:29) An overview of Fogo Island Inn and how its local-first mission spread 

(1:03:32) Why Shorefast chose the harder path and paid deep attention to details

(1:08:18) What community means

(1:12:09) How Shorefast Institute models a new approach to investing for development

(1:16:53) Learnings from The Third Pillar 

(1:18:05) Why Shorefast created the economic nutrition label 

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Most companies scale by cutting corners. Seth Goldman built a brand by refusing to.

Seth is one of the founders of Honest Tea, a longtime chair at Beyond Meat, and the cofounder of Just Ice Tea. His career has been defined by a belief that business can be a force for human and environmental good. From a thermos of tea brewed in his kitchen to national distribution and acquisition by Coca-Cola, he has spent decades exploring how values can live inside systems built for profit.

In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Seth to talk about the full story of Honest Tea, from its founding to its sale and eventual shutdown, and how those experiences shaped his approach to building again. We discuss how trust and long-term relationships helped him rebuild quickly, what it takes to embed purpose in supply chains, and why he believes even B Corp standards do not go far enough.

—

Brought to you by:

Framer: Build better sites, faster at https://www.framer.com/design Use code "ERIC"

—

Where to find Seth Goldman:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seth-goldman-234bb7124

• X: https://x.com/HonestSeth

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(02:03) Seth’s early career in politics and how he saw business as a faster path to change

(07:40) The early ideas he explored before landing on tea

(11:30) How Seth connected tea to an ethical, fair-trade mission

(14:31) How Honest Tea aligned profit with purpose

(17:56) Honest Tea’s role in expanding organic and fair-trade sourcing

(18:50) How Seth got Whole Foods on board

(21:40) The next steps in scaling the business

(22:27) The value of the in-person pitch 

(24:20) When Whole Foods’ local buyers could still take a chance on new brands

(25:46) The case for mission transmission 

(27:05) How Honest Tea raised money from friends and family to major corporations

(29:15) How the Coca-Cola deal came together

(32:27) How a kids’ juice box carried Honest Tea’s mission forward

(34:51) The end of Honest Tea and the start of Just Iced Tea

(41:03) How existing relationships and lean habits helped Just Iced Tea move faster

(44:30) The magnetic power of a shared mission to attract teams, partners, and customers

(48:42) Why trust is the most valuable asset a company can build 

(51:15) What the Purpose Pledge is and how it raises the bar for ethical business

(53:42) Why great products and purpose are not mutually exclusive

(58:29) The story of Tony’s Chocolonely and Seth’s role as a mission guardian 

(1:01:40) Seth’s parting advice 

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Most companies optimize for profit. Devoted Health was built to serve people.

In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Todd Park, co-founder of Devoted Health and former U.S. Chief Technology Officer, to explore what it looks like to design a company for human flourishing at scale.

Todd shares how Devoted earned one of the highest trust scores in the industry and how he and his brother, Ed, built a business that treats every member like family. We talk about what it takes to operationalize love inside a system as complex as healthcare and how Devoted never saw any problem as outside its mission.

In our conversation today, we talk about:

• What it means to have love as an operational framework 

• How Devoted’s unambiguous mission became a superpower for alignment and trust

• The formula Todd uses to define what world-class healthcare really means

• Why Todd believes hard problems belong inside the company’s mission, not outside it

• The role of trust as both Devoted’s core metric and its greatest moat

•  Lessons from Howard Schultz on scaling culture 

• What it takes to design an ecosystem where business, technology, and community all serve the same goal

• And more

—

Where to find Todd Park:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/todd-park-3232573

• X: https://x.com/Todd_Park44

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(03:04) How Todd turned Devoted Health’s founding vision into a full-stack healthcare system

(13:09) How Devoted’s virtuous performance cycle turns love into trust in action

(20:51) Guide: the guardian angels who embody Devoted’s mission

(29:21) How loyalty drives Devoted’s word-of-mouth growth

(31:02) Why Devoted’s marketing materials don’t mention love

(32:27) Harder is easier: Why Devoted built a full-stack healthcare system 

(37:54) The four powers ‘harder is easier’ unlocks

(46:57) The case for radical transparency with your investors

(51:20) The elements of alignment and the power they unlock 

(55:13) Howard Schultz’s advice for scaling culture 

(1:05:23) A story from Starbucks about creating culture

(1:06:50) How Devoted addresses different determinants of health through separate entities

(1:13:00) Inside Devoted’s Elders Councils 

(1:19:43) Building mission protection into Devoted’s DNA through founder control

(1:25:55) Final thoughts from Eric and Todd

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Most companies talk about purpose. Beekman 1802 made it their operating system.

In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Dr. Brent Ridge and Josh Kilmer-Purcell, co-founders of Beekman 1802, to explore how a small act of compassion grew into a multimillion-dollar skincare brand rooted in community and purpose.

After losing their Manhattan jobs during the 2008 recession, Brent and Josh moved to a farm in upstate New York and agreed to take in 80 homeless goats from a neighbor. That decision led to their first product, a bar of goat milk soap, and to a philosophy of entrepreneurship built on kindness and long-term thinking.

Together, we talk about scaling a values-driven company, turning The Amazing Race into PR that fueled their growth, and how to make purpose authentic instead of performative. We also explore why kindness and discipline can coexist, and how the best brands instill a sense of belonging.

—

Where to find Dr. Brent Ridge: 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/brent-ridge-md-0641791/

• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/brent.ridge.12/

Where to find Josh Kilmer-Purcell: 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josh-kilmer-purcell-956b0b10/

• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/josh.kilmerpurcell.5/

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(02:18) The Beekman 1802 origin story 

(04:25) How goat milk soap became their first product and sparked research on skin health

(05:36) How Brent and Josh partnered with a local soap maker 

(06:58) Why Brent and Josh bootstrapped Beekman 1802 and how they found their market

(12:48) How Brent and Josh enlisted neighbors to fulfill their first national order

(16:58) A heuristic for decision making 

(18:01) The power of thinking beyond transactional relationships 

(19:30) Why Brent and Josh see kindness as a competitive advantage 

(22:28) How to stay kind without getting taken advantage of

(24:20) The business upside of Cloudflare’s decision to give its product away

(25:23) The step-by-step approach Beekman 1802 used to scale without outside funding

(28:33) How Brent and Josh made kindness a core operating principle at Beekman 1802

(35:04) Why authenticity can’t be bought and purpose shouldn’t be confused with morality

(40:44) How Beekman 1802 stays true to its values while working with investors

(42:44) The crucial difference between being nice and being kind

(45:54) How Brent and Josh turned The Amazing Race into a million-dollar win and free PR 

(49:10) How Brent and Josh’s upbringings shaped their values and resilience

(50:20) The role of family, community, and optimism in Beekman’s enduring success

(52:31) How Brent and Josh think about succession and protecting the brand

(56:02) Other companies Brent and Josh admire

(56:58) The reception to G.O.A.T. Wisdom and how timeless lessons still apply today

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Lukas Biewald has been shaping the future of AI for nearly two decades. In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, we explore how his early passion for the board game Go, his hard-won lessons as a founder, and his focus on alignment and culture helped him build Weights & Biases into a trusted toolmaker in machine learning.

In our conversation, we discuss: 

• Lessons Lukas drew from Go about pattern recognition, persistence, and the power of computation

• The hard-won lessons Lukas took from CrowdFlower about timing, focus, and staying in the wrong role too long

• How Lukas created his own unpaid internship at OpenAI to sharpen and expand his technical skills

• The pain point that inspired Lukas and his cofounders to build Weights & Biases

• Practical ways Lukas kept his board aligned

• Why caring deeply about your product and users beats clever hacks and pitch decks every time

• How W&B’s ‘Year in Review’ showed that delight can be a moat in enterprise software

• Why the CoreWeave deal feels fundamentally different for Lukas than the sale of CrowdFlower

• And much more!

—

Where to find Lukas Biewald: 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lbiewald/

• X: https://x.com/l2k

• Website: https://lukasbiewald.com/

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(02:05) How Go shaped Lukas’s view of AI

(08:32) How large language models actually work, and why they still feel mysterious

(12:58) Why AI’s abilities force us to rethink what intelligence means

(14:55) Key lessons from Lukas’s time at CrowdFlower

(23:59) What Lukas gained from teaching AI and interning at OpenAI

(28:28) Weights & Biases initial product

(30:06) How Lukas and his cofounders turned a pain point into a company

(32:18) What Lukas learned about the reality of raising money

(34:30) The non-negotiables in startup building 

(37:00) Why genuine care outperforms every other growth strategy

(39:11) How caring about AI research and delighting users created W&B’s moat

(43:47) How a contrarian culture helped W&B preserve its ethos as it scaled

(47:00) The challenges of being a middle manager and how to identify the right bold ideas

(55:07) How Lukas knew W&B had achieved real traction

(56:36) How Lukas built alignment and transparency with his board

(59:05) Why the acquisition of W&B feels less stressful than Lukas’s previous company

(1:03:09) Why Lukas believes skepticism about AI is premature

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Bureaucracy was once a breakthrough. Today, it’s become a costly drag on innovation, human potential, and business impact. In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I sit down with Gary Hamel and Michele Zanini, authors of Humanocracy, to explore how organizations can move beyond outdated management models and unlock true human thriving.

Hamel and Zanini have spent years researching and advising some of the world’s most forward-thinking companies. Together, we make the case for replacing top-down control with systems that maximize contribution, creativity, and ownership at every level.

We dive into how to rethink management from first principles, why employee engagement is at historic lows, and what leaders can do to build organizations that unlock the full potential of their people.

—

Where to find Gary Hamel: 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garyhamel/

• X: https://x.com/profhamel

• Website: https://www.garyhamel.com/

Where to find Michele Zanini: 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelezanini/

• X: https://x.com/michelezanini

• Website: https://www.michelezanini.com/

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(02:02) The importance of human-invented management concepts

(04:20) How Gary came up with core competencies 

(07:15) The benefits of bureaucracy (a brief history of labor and management)

(13:00) The General Motors near-bankruptcy story

(15:00) Why management is the greatest human concept, but due for reinvention 

(23:20) Outlier companies with unconventional structures

(24:00) Why management needs new paradigms and principles

(29:55) The lost opportunity of Mary Parker Follett’s management philosophy

(35:45) The dominance of ‘left-brained’ leadership in management philosophy

(38:52) Core ideas behind Humanocracy 

(55:44) Tips for building healthy, efficient organizations 

(1:03:36) The overlooked lessons from outlier companies like Vanguard

(1:12:21) What Harvard Law’s startup study reveals about founder control

(1:15:55) Why unlocking human potential is a CEO’s core mission

(1:19:42) Advice for founders on avoiding the pitfalls of bureaucracy

(1:22:15) Why every great company is driven by a great purpose

(1:27:00) Examples of companies operating from first principles 

(1:31:14) Why productivity matters, and how it’s linked with bureaucracy

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Patagonia has always been different. While so many companies lose their way when profits come before people, the planet, or even their own products, Patagonia continues to stay true to its values.

In today’s episode of The Eric Ries Show, I speak with journalist David Gelles, author of Dirtbag Billionaire, his new book about founder Yvon Chouinard. We explore how Chouinard built Patagonia with an ethos of quality and conservation, how he resisted the corrupting pull of profit-at-all-costs, and why he ultimately gave the company away to protect its mission.

We talk about what Patagonia’s story reveals about the possibility of building ethical companies that not only survive but thrive. And we make the case for putting strong protections in place from the very beginning, so that a company’s purpose can endure long after its founder is gone.

—

Where to find David Gelles:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidgelles/

• X: https://x.com/dgelles

• Substack: https://davidgelles.substack.com/

• Website: https://davidgelles.com/

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(02:30) Why Patagonia remains so little understood despite its visibility

(05:47) How Yvon Chouinard resisted the corrupting influence of wealth

(07:48) How Yvon’s rural upbringing shaped his enduring ethos

(11:51) The pivotal moments that revealed a market for Yvon’s high-quality gear

(16:17) Yvon’s partnership with Tom Frost and the expansion from climbing gear into apparel

(18:06) How a local river fight sparked Yvon’s lifelong activism

(21:32) Why Patagonia was able to resist the corporate pressures that erode values

(27:46) David on what corruption meant to Yvon and his uncompromising philosophy

(30:03) LTSE and alternative structures that protect values

(33:48) A short history of shareholder primacy and general incorporation

(36:03) Yvon’s aversion to conventional business culture

(37:44) Doug Tompkins’s contrasting path from luxury to large-scale conservation

(40:33) Yvon’s behind-the-scenes funding of Tompkins Conservation

(42:19) Patagonia’s values of quality and conservation and the movements it spurred

(51:11) Tony’s Chocolonely’s ethical approach to chocolate and influence on supply chains

(52:34) How Yvon structured succession to protect Patagonia’s values

(1:02:33) Examples of foundation-owned companies: Grundfos and Zeiss 

(1:03:47) A case for building protective structures from day one

(1:06:06) Why mission-aligned, ethical companies don’t get as much press

(1:10:04) The long-term value of taking the harder road

(1:16:25) What financial reporting teaches us about prioritizing ethics

(1:22:03) Why every company must define its own purpose 

(1:24:59) Final reflections on why companies can be run with values and integrity

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

What if your company’s mission turned out to be bigger than you imagined?

In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I speak with Matthew Prince, co-founder and CEO of Cloudflare, now a $70 billion company defending 20% of all internet traffic. We trace how Cloudflare’s mission wasn’t declared at the start, but discovered through a series of principled decisions, from protecting journalists and activists to making encryption free for everyone.

We also explore today’s urgent challenges: how AI’s shift from search engines to answer engines threatens the web’s business model, why creators must be compensated, and what a sustainable, human-centered internet could look like.

This is a conversation about technology, power, and what it means to build with principle.

—

Where to find Mathew Prince: 

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mprince/

• X: https://x.com/eastdakota

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(02:44) Cloudflare’s history of blogging 

(08:06) How Cloudflare got involved in safeguarding democracy 

(14:30) How Matthew learned Cloudflare would make enemies

(16:42) Why Cloudflare stopped charging for encryption 

(18:36) How a series of principled decisions led to Cloudflare’s mission

(26:24) Why a clear mission makes recruiting and building a company easier

(32:00) Cloudflare’s culture of psychological safety around failure 

(34:18) Lessons from Cloudflare’s mission and scrappy early team

(44:27) Why scale and valuation didn’t shake Cloudflare’s mission

(50:12) How the shift from search to answers is reshaping the internet

(1:01:00) Why we need a new business model to compensate content makers 

(1:03:48) Matthew’s vision for a sustainable future of creators and AI

(1:06:26) How supporting creators sustains both the internet and Cloudflare’s mission

(1:09:57) Lessons from Spotify on supporting creators

(1:12:26) How Cloudflare handles its civic responsibility with transparency

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.

In this episode of The Eric Ries Show, I’m joined by Guillermo Rauch, CEO and founder of Vercel—a company powering the front end of the internet for brands like OpenAI, Nintendo, Chick-fil-A, and many more. Guillermo’s journey began far from Silicon Valley, in Argentina, where a Red Hat Linux CD changed the course of his life.

We talk about how open source gave him a way in—and why he still believes it’s the ultimate growth engine for companies and careers. Guillermo shares what he learned from building developer tools used by millions, and how Vercel became the go-to platform for the AI era.

In our conversation today, we talk about the following topics: 

• How open source paved the way for Guillermo’s career

• The case for open source as a growth strategy

• What makes Silicon Valley special, and how online communities can unlock similar opportunities

• The gap between how elite companies ship software and how most others do

• How Vercel became the go-to for AI startups

• The future of the web: agents, AI clouds, and software 2.0

• Guillermo’s take on vibe coding and why it’s more than just prompts to code

• How recursive founder mode helps Vercel stay fast while scaling

• The challenge of keeping Vercel open, fair, and resistant to abuse

•  And much more!

—

Where to find Guillermo Rauch: 

• X: https://x.com/rauchg

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rauchg/

• Website: https://rauchg.com/

—

Where to find Eric:

• Newsletter:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericries.carrd.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• Podcast:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

• YouTube:⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/@theericriesshow⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

—

In This Episode We Cover:

(00:00) Intro

(01:31) Guillermo’s early encounter with open source and how it shaped his path into tech

(08:44) Guillermo’s early contributions to the open source community 

(11:03) Why Guillermo ditched Linux for Mac OS

(12:28) Guillermo’s contributions to MooTools

(13:40) How Guillermo landed his first real job before even graduating high school

(15:07) Guillermo’s early startups and the origins of his entrepreneurial drive

(18:40) How moving to Silicon Valley ignited his ambition to found a company

(23:45) The story of Vercel—and how it started with an open source project, Next.js

(31:40) Open source’s impact on talent creation 

(33:46) Why building the harder thing up front makes everything easier downstream

(36:30) What Google got right with Chrome—and how open sourcing it changed the game

(39:55) What companies like OpenAI, Nintendo, and Chick-fil-A use Vercel for

(43:57) Why so many AI startups are building on Vercel

(51:52) What recursive founder mode is

(58:17) How Guillermo finds value-aligned founders 

(1:02:03) Why nearly everyone at Vercel uses AI, without being told to

(1:04:50) Using Bezos’s Day 1 mindset to fight bureaucracy and move fast

(1:09:56) Vercel’s approach to vibe coding and AI safety

(1:11:32) Guillermo’s thoughts on immigration 

(1:15:37) Why Vercel fights to keep its platform open, fair, and safe for everyone

—

You can find episode references at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.ericriesshow.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

—

Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠Pen Name⁠⁠⁠.

Eric may be an investor in the companies discussed.