Why is Georgia drifting toward authoritarianism? Why is its current government aligning more closely with Russia and blaming its predecessors for Russia’s 2008 invasion of Georgia? How are the histories of Ukraine and Georgia deeply intertwined—and why are these two countries key to understanding Eastern Europe?

My name is Volodymyr Yermolenko. I am a Ukrainian philosopher, the chief editor of UkraineWorld, and the president of PEN Ukraine.

My guest today is Tornike Gordadze, former Georgian State Minister for Euro-Atlantic Integration. He currently teaches at Sciences Po and the Jacques Delors Institute in Paris. We recorded this conversation in Tbilisi during the vibrant Zeg Festival, where both Tornike and I were participants.

The Explaining Ukraine podcast is produced by UkraineWorld, an English-language media outlet about Ukraine, run by Internews Ukraine.

You can support our work on https://www.patreon.com/c/ukraineworld. Your support is crucial, as we rely heavily on crowdfunding.

You can also help fund our volunteer trips to frontline areas in Ukraine, where we support both soldiers and civilians. Donations are welcome via PayPal at: [email protected].

***

Contents:

00:00 – Tornike Gordadze, a former Georgian minister

01:35 – Does the Russian imperialism connect Georgia and Ukraine?

02:53 – Georgians fight for Ukraine. Why?

06:00 – The Russian war methodology in Georgia and Ukraine

08:00 – The NATO Missed Chance: Bucharest Summit 2008 and its consequences

10:10 – How did the West's fear empower Russia?

15:00 – Georgia, Syria, Ukraine: Russia didn't pay any price for the interventions

17:00 – The West was not strong

19:00 – Georgia’s Transformation: From Rose Revolution to political decay

20:22 – Why is Russia afraid of the successful democracies next door?

24:04 – Who was Saakashvili?

26:30 – The rise of Georgian Dream - did Russia win?

28:59 – Russian or Belarusian playbook in Georgia

30:57 – Why would Georgia destroy all connections with the West?

33:40 – Why does Orban support the Georgia authorities?

36:15 – Bratislava speech of Macron: Russia is not only a threat to Ukraine but also to Europe

38:30 – Two shocks for Europe

40:16 – The future of the European continent is in danger – Gordadze