With Friedrich Merz officially at the helm, Germany is entering a new era. But with the AfD breathing down his neck – the country is actually more internally Disordered than outsiders may realise. We ask: could the answer be a new – inclusive – brand of nationalism?
To find out, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Will Wilkes: Bloomberg News correspondent in Germany and co-author of ‘Broken Republik: The Inside Story of Germany's Descent into Crisis’. The pair discuss the current state of Germany, discussing how Germany's historical context – not just WWII but also the impact of the financial crisis and the refugee influx – has shaped its present situation. Plus: Germany's role in European security and the challenges posed by the rise of the far-right party, AFD.
And as Jane and Will Order the Disorder – they discuss how to create a cohesive German national identity – could it be fostering unity by creating new community celebrations?

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow 

Check out our recent YouTube ‘The DC Jewish Museum shooting: The Disorderly illogic of it’ - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BaWtQ5bH-Q&t=2s 

Show Notes Links:

Broken Republik (English edition): https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/broken-republik-9781526679161/ 

Totally Kaputt (German edition): https://www.piper.de/buecher/totally-kaputt-isbn-978-3-492-07328-8 

Friedrich Merz is no unifier – he may deepen Germany’s divides (The Guardian): https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/may/05/germany-unifier-chancellor-divide-friedrich-merz 

Germany’s identity crisis is 80 years in the making (Bloomberg):  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-10/germany-s-political-center-challenged-by-afd-russia-china-and-trump?sref=ttOZ5TVM

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Disorder is a show where we look for historical parallels to better understand our current age of Global Enduring Disorder… It is also a show where once and a while we stumble across novel and yet explanatory parallels like the idea that the problems of Weimar Germany have gone global and sometimes we even get to interview world famous scholars who have come up with these novel parallels and have brilliantly extracted useful kernels about the interconnectivity of different crises, especially as pertains to institutional weakness, deliberate disorderers, and the rise of populist would-be strong men.

Today, Jason Pack is joined by Robert Kaplan: a New York Times bestselling author whose famous books Balkan Ghosts, the Coming Anarchy, the Arabists, and The Revenge of Geography have been extremely influential in developing the concept of the Enduring Disorder. As part of our partnership with the New Books Network, we discuss his latest book, Waste Land: A World in Permanent Crisis.

Robert and Jason discuss the rise of populism, the impact of globalization, and the decline of institutions and leadership. Plus: the significance of constitutional monarchy and the current decline of the major global powers. And as they Order the Disorder – they look at how the failure of the neo-populists will hopefully lead to more trust in experts, and how the Weimar republic can teach us lessons.

Quote of the episode ‘The more abject the disorder, often the more extreme the tyranny to follow, and that brings us to Weimar’s last chapter’

Producer: George McDonagh

Disorder is also now part of the Evergreen Network! For more visit https://evergreenpodcasts.com/disorder

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Show Notes Links:

For more on the New Books Network visit https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder 

For more on Robert visit https://robertdkaplan.com/ 

Get Robert’s book, Waste Land: A World in Permanent Crisis https://www.amazon.com/Waste-Land-World-Permanent-Crisis-ebook/dp/B0D2W1B519/ 

Listen to Ep3. The Rise of the Neo-Populists https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/0c55bf63f1175d94d6a508eb72e8a84f 

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To best Order the Disorder, we love hosting live shows with our partners at the Royal United Services Institute (RUSI) and showcasing the great range of talent that they have on staff. Jane and Jason were joined for a live recording on May 14 by TOM KEATINGE, DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRE FOR FINANCE AND SECURITY AT RUSI.

The trio started off tackling Sanctions: the role and use of Western Sanctions before Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022; how the use of sanctions has changed since Russia’s full-scale invasion, particularly on this side of the Atlantic; what does this mean for the rest of the world; and how this expansive use of sanctions is reordering global finance. 

And then moved on to the question of Markets…. and how they hold governments to account. Jason genuinely believes that the markets may be our last hope to save American democracy and that they can do what the supreme court and congress are supposed to do but cannot.  Finally, we couldn’t discuss finance and security without mentioning the Donald’s favourite word in the English language that word that he seems not to realize comes directly from Arabic, *Tariffs*.  We tried to unpack what really are tarriffs; how we know they didn’t work with Smoot Hawley; what does Donald Trump think tarriffs are.

The main take away of the discussion overall was: The failure of economic tools of coercion such as sanctions and tariffs to achieve their stated aims and the power of 'markets' to reassert order. 

It was a well attended live show with over 75 guests in RUSI’s beautiful library… pls come join us for the next one in the Autumn. And more importantly right now! Pls pls join our paid for substack to hear all the beautiful listener questions!

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work and to listen to the listener questions which are cut from this free episode - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Show Notes Links: 

We are trying to grow our YouTube channel. Pls check out this rather racy video and subscribe to the channel, Is Gary Lineker an Anti-Semite? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdi4vVGyCkM 

Relevant RUSI sanctions work can be found here: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/projects/sanctions-and-illicit-finance-monitoring-and-analysis-network-sifmanet 

A recent article challenging the Russia maritime sanctions status quo can be found here: https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/tapped-out-it-time-revisit-oil-sanctions-russia 

A recent article arguing for action on the Russian central bank assets can be found here: https://www.politico.eu/article/russia-central-bank-assets-ukraine/ 

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FIRSTLY, PLS COME TO OUR LIVE SHOW. NOW OPEN TO ALL DISORDER LISTENERS Wednesday MAY 14, 17:30 AT RUSI. You can sign up here: https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-ordering-the-global-financial-disorder.html 

NOW TO THIS EPISODE:

In Trump’s first 100 days he has disordered almost everything: from freedom of speech on campus to global trade to affairs of war and peace. And yet, despite his threats to abandon Ukraine, and actual denials of provision of certain forms of intelligence and anti-aircraft equipment, the frontlines have largely held. In fact, it now appears that Trump lacks the ability to force Ukraine to make concessions that it doesn’t want to make, namely over Crimea. So, is there more Order and hope to be found in Ukraine than is immediately apparent?

To find out, Jason Pack is joined by Mark McNamee. Mark moved to Kyiv in October 2023 in order to start the Ukraine Business News (UBN) Network, with the mission to aid foreign investors in navigating the business environment of Ukraine and drive Ukraine’s economic recovery and reconstruction. He is also host of the podcast "History in the Making: The War in Ukraine”.

Mark and Jason discuss: the current state of the ongoing Russo-Ukrainian War, with a particular focus on the resilience of Ukraine's economy, its innovative use of drone technology and how Ukraine could become a global leader in defense technology going forward. 

Plus: the implications of the U.S.-Ukraine minerals deal as truly game changing, the role of Europe in supporting Ukraine, and whether Ukraine's potential EU membership can offset lack of potential for it to become a NATO member. And as they look to Order the Disorder, Mark proposes the creation of a European Defense Tech Fund to support Ukraine's recovery and defense capabilities.

Producer: George McDonagh

Executive Producer: Neil Fearn

Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Show Notes Links: 

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FIRSTLY, PLS JOIN THE SUBSTACK TO COME TO OUR LIVE SHOW NOW OPEN TO ALL DISORDER LISTENERS Wednesday MAY 14, 17:30 AT RUSI. You can sign up here: https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-ordering-the-global-financial-disorder.html  

NOW TO THIS EPISODE: As Russia seeks a maximalist deal to secure its gains in Ukraine via negotiations with the Trump Administration, Putin is still trying to spread even more Disorder globally.  

Are the Russians, in fact, the top table Disorderer globally? And if so, why? What internal domestic politics are driving that Disorder? 

This week, Jason Pack is joined by Emily Ferris, a Senior Research Fellow in the International Security Studies department at RUSI, specialising in Russian domestic politics. Before joining RUSI in 2018, Emily worked at Control Risks - a London consultancy firm - as a Russian security and politics analyst, advising clients conducting business in Russia.  

Jason and Emily discuss the complexities of Russia's internal dynamics, its infrastructure conundrums, its role as a disordering power, and whether there is genuine domestic opposition within the country. 

Plus: Railways, Ports, Siberian governorships, Putin’s negotiation tactics with the Trump administration, Russia's territorial ambitions, and the ideological components driving its actions on the world stage. And as Emily and Jason close the conversation, they discuss the future of Russia post-Putin and – to Order the Disorder – Emily explains her view on importance of cultivating serious academic expertise in understanding domestic Russian affairs. 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Executive Producer: Neil Fearn 

Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

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For a special edition of the podcast, we hear a conversation between Jason and Andrew Keen on his KeenOn podcast.

They discuss: is the American Dream Dead? Can you truly reinvent yourself in the US compared to Europe? And is there still hope for America going forward? 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Executive Producer: Neil Fearn 

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Show Notes Links: 

To get tickets to our RUSI event on 14th May visit: https://my.rusi.org/events/disorder-podcast-live-ordering-the-global-financial-disorder.html  

Get the KeenOn podcast at https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/keen-on-america/id1448694012  

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JOIN OUR SUBSTACK TO COME TO THE DISORDER LIVE SHOW MAY 14, 17:30 AT RUSI. INFO IN THE LINKS BELOW

NOW TO THIS EPISODE: Alex and Jason take listener questions that explore the chaotic political landscape shaped by Trump. Our brilliant Mega Orderers have asked about: What are Trump’s true goals and how aligned are they with Russia; where is this going to end; and how should functioning democracies respond?  

Bouncing off listeners’ ideas, Alex and Jason discuss: new forms of ‘spheres of influence’ imperialism; how Trumpian advisors, like the influencer Rasputin Laura Loomer, recycle Russian talking points;  could Canada, the UK, New Zealand and Australia work together to forge an alternative order? Is crypto just a vehicle for corruption? And how do you deal with switching from driving on one side of the road to the other? 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Executive Producer: Neil Fearn 

Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support our work - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Show Notes Links: 

Disorder Podcast Live: Ordering the Global Financial Disorder 

17:30 – 20:00 BST;  14 May 2025  

Join us for a live recording of the Disorder Podcast with Tom Keatinge, Director of the Centre for Finance and Security at RUSI IN LOND AT 61 Whitehall 

To attend become a paid for member of the Ordering the Disorder Substack here and then follow the RUSI prompts to attend: https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/disorder-podcast-live-1730-may-14?triedRedirect=true 

Listen to Arthur Snell’s podcast, Behind The Lines, with Jonathan Terra: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-crisis-in-the-atlantic-alliance-ep-2/id1704344656?i=1000702371956  

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As Trump’s trade war heats up and his anti-NATO rhetoric continues, America’s allies are having to face a new reality: the global superpower can no longer be relied upon. As core allies like the EU, UK and Canada recalibrate, what does that mean for America? And what does that mean for America’s traditional European allies who rely on the U.S. for their defence? 

To discuss the future of NATO and Five Eyes, Jason is joined by longtime friend of the Pod, Kori Schake. She has lived her entire professional life advocating for the Transatlantic Alliance and American global leadership. She started her career as NATO desk officer at DoD under GHW Bush and is now Director of Foreign and Defense Policy Studies at the American Enterprise Institute (AEI). 

Kori and Jason look at what might happen if America further withdraws from the world and abandons its traditional allies; what happens next in Ukraine; if Trump has a real peace plan; and how his cabinet members are acting like a megaphone rather than as genuine advisors. The duo look at scary scenerios: like what happens if the US tried to kick Canada out of the Five Eyes Intelligence sharing partnership and why Trump’s allies drive his policy choices towards the extremes. 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Executive Producer: Neil Fearn 

Pls Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support us as we try to support NATO and Five Eyes - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Show Notes Links: 

Hear Kori previously on Episode 6 NATO: A Model for Ordering the Disorder? - https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/9472a8b7d262dd9fb0cd9827e8947964  

Read Kori’s piece in The Atlantic - https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2025/02/intelligence-agencies-weakened/681711/  

Check out her views on Signalgate: https://www.aei.org/foreign-and-defense-policy/the-wrong-signals-the-proper-role-of-a-defense-secretary/ 

And hear her on AEI’s ‘What the Hell’ Podcast talking US Defence policy: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/wth-a-european-supreme-allied-commander-of-nato/id1467993804?i=1000701043889  

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Europe and the US are increasingly having differing approaches to everything from free trade to free speech to combatting disinformation to defence to the role of the judiciary. What does that mean for Global Order? Or rather – in our mad mad mad mad world – what does this mean for the extent of Global Disorder? 

In this episode, hosts Alexandra Hall Hall and Jason Pack are reunited in person in DC. Jason talks of his misadventures on Capitol Hill – and relates anecdotes he has picked up about the DOGE sledgehammer, Republicans bullying Canadians, and the post-apocalyptic feeling of the place. Jason and Alex anchor the episode around the divergence btw the US and Europe on issues of: Democracy, Misinformation, Corruption and Fraud; National Security/Foreign Policy; and Economy/Tariffs. 

They delve into the way the political climate ‘feels’ in the US under Trump's administration, and the differences in judicial accountability of major political figures between the US and Europe – looking at the Le Pen case in particular. Jason expresses his mad admiration of France and Sweden. 

Plus: could civil disobedience grow in the US? Are Trump’s policies being decided by non-experts who launder Russian misinformation like Laura Loomer – a new Tiktok influencer Rasputin? And can Kier Starmer be bold enough to help us Order the Disorder? And what can Sir Keir learn from Canada’s Mark Carney who seems naturally gifted at standing up to Trump. So, ELBOWS UP, dear Mega Orderers. 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Executive Producer: Neil Fearn 

Pls Subscribe to our Substack and become a paid member to support what we do - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Show Notes Links: 

Read Alex’s interview with Tom Malinowski: https://bylinetimes.com/2025/03/22/why-the-democrats-must-start-fighting-back-against-trump-and-musk/  

Read Trump’s firing of NSA chief is ‘rolling out the red carpet’ for cyber attacks: https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/04/trump-fires-nsa-cyber-command-timothy-haugh-00273859  

Read Trump Has Already Botched His Own Bad Tariff Plan https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/04/trump-negotiation-tariff/682300/  

For more on Laura Loomer: Far-right activist who met Trump before he fired NSC officials: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly8y27dwgpo  

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Corruption, corruption, everywhere corruption. And no attempt to stop it in sight. As Trump and his cronies get rich from cypto, dismantle government, and propose their companies fulfilled outsourced contracts, the meta analysis of the new administration appears plain and simple: The tariffs, the strategic crypto fund, meme coin, it is all just corruption out in the open.  

If it is so plain for all to see, how are they getting away with it? 

To find out, Jason is joined by Frank Vogl. Formerly a foreign correspondent for The Times (UK), and then a senior official at the World Bank, Frank set up Transparency International in 1993, and then co-founded the Partnership for Transparency Fund in 1998. These two global organizations are at the forefront in the fight by civil society against corruption. Now, Frank is an Adjunct Professor at Georgetown University and the author of many articles and two books on global corruption – ‘The Enablers’ and ‘Waging War on Corruption’. 

In their discussion, Jason and Frank delve into the overt corruption of various decisions early in the 2nd Trump Administration, providing a focus on the role cryptocurrency plays in this corruption. Then, they look at the dismantling of anti-corruption mechanisms, and the transformation of the Republican Party into a vehicle for Trumpism and mafioso crony enrichment of Trump’s allies. Then: they analyse the complicity of Western nations in enabling corruption, and the economic implications of these actions. 

Finally, as they Order the Disorder, Frank pushes for the establishment of an international anti-corruption court, and argues that European governments can and should step up to help fight back against this corruption. 

Producer: George McDonagh 

Executive Producer: Neil Fearn 

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/ 

Show Notes Links: 

For more on Frank’s work visit - https://www.frankvogl.com/news  

For more on Transparency International - https://www.transparency.org/en/  

Get Frank’s book The Enablers: How the West Supports Kleptocrats and Corruption - Endangering Our Democracy - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Enablers-Kleptocrats-Corruption-Endangering-Democracy-ebook/dp/B09JGL62L1/  

Get Frank’s book Waging War on Corruption: Inside the Movement Fighting the Abuse of Power - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waging-War-Corruption-Movement-Fighting/dp/1442218533/  

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