As the Iran conflict enters its sixth week and Trump’s ultimatum is upon us, what is Trump’s real plan here? Is it merely to Disorder, or is he genuinely seeking to negotiate his way out of this conflict?

To discuss the latest, including the role of Europe and whether the Strait of Hormuz can be theoretically and practically opened by military force, Jason is joined by Michael Stephens, senior fellow at Global Nation and an associate fellow at RUSI. He ran to be an MP for the Tories in Putney; he speaks Hebrew and Arabic; and has decades of expertise in the Gulf States, Syria, and inside the UK government. Michael and Jason discuss the theological background to the Islamic Republic’s ideology, the positive role Britain can play, whether the mere existence of this conflict helps the Chinese exert more power globally, and what the Europeans could do to Order the Disorder if they wanted to.

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Producer: George McDonagh

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Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit disordershow.com/club

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Listen and watch Jason explain ‘How will the Iran war reshape global supply chains?’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoZyAP5tFXo

Listen and watch Jason explain, ‘Why did Trump fire Pam Bondi?’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id8jarTtdFI

Want to learn more about Shi’i Islam and how it informs the Islamic Republic’s decision making, read Moojan Momen’s brilliant An Introduction to Shi’i Islam: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Shii-Islam-History-Doctrines/dp/0300034997

To listen to our previous interview with Michael visit https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/Zjk5NzljMzItOGNkNS0xMWYwLWFiNGEtMDNjMjExN2VkNWU3

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This week, Mark Lobel and Jane Kinninmont take listener questions on topics including: the future of Iran and the Iranian people, the decline of Britain’s naval power, whether NATO can survive Trump’s ongoing attacked, what role the Enduring Disorder played in causing Brexit, and how to solve global inequality.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Give feedback on Disorder here: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/CX7JB3W 

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch 

Chatham House Prize | Chatham House – International Affairs Think Tank https://www.chathamhouse.org/2026/03/sudans-volunteer-led-aid-network-receives-2025-chatham-house-prize  

Donate to the Emergency Response Rooms - Donate | Support Sudan's Emergency Response Rooms — SUDAN MUTUAL AID COALITION — SUDAN MUTUAL AID COALITION - https://www.mutualaidsudan.org/donate 

Article that makes the case for the Iran war - https://apple.news/Ac9j4I-MHSFuj6tgL1zCiUA 

Senate foreign relations committee on the folly of waiving sanctions on Iran’s oil - https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/dem/release/shaheen-schumer-reedwarner-warren-statementon-trump-administrationdecision-to-ease-iran-oil-sanctions 

The Times on European leaders considering a scenario where the U.S. makes a deal with Russia and turns its back on Europe - https://apple.news/A-NCiRk_2QVCXwWoStWlppg 

U.K. Parliament’s Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy says U.K. must plan for a transition to greater European leadership of NATO - https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/111/national-security-strategy-joint-committee/news/212889/mps-and-lords-call-for-more-clarity-on-governments-plan-for-uk-national-security/ 

Frankly podcast on “What To Do As The World Falls Apart” which Jane found super interesting - and which highlighted the need to think now, in the current window of relative stability, about the institutions of the future, before the institutions of today actually fall apart (referenced in our discussion on NATO) - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-great-simplification-with-nate-hagens/id1604218333?i=1000756316022 

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The world is steeped in conflict. From Ukraine to the Middle East to Sudan, so what role do UN Peacekeepers play in a world with little peace? And what role can they play

To discuss, Jane Kinninmont is joined by Jean-Pierre Lacroix, the Under-Secretary-General for Peace Operations. They discuss the current role of UN peacekeepers, what they can and cannot do, and how they can find a role in a world where fewer peace agreements are being made.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Read more on UN Peacekeeping here: https://www.visionofhumanity.org/un-at-80-why-it-needs-to-reinvigorate-peacekeeping/ 

Read more on why UN Peacekeeping works here: 

https://cic.nyu.edu/resources/conflict-and-violence-prevention-works-how-do-we-sell-it-politically/ 

Jane adds:

The Institute for Economics and Peace has highlighted the long-term downward trend in funding for peacekeeping and peacebuilding around the world: 

“Between 2008 to 2024, peacekeeping and peacebuilding funding declined by 26 per cent, with peacebuilding falling 39 per cent (from $8.7 billion to $5.3 billion) and peacekeeping down to $5.8 billion”

As a result, “Despite a nearly unchanged number of missions over the past two decades (60 in 2008 vs 61 in 2024), the number of deployed peacekeeping personnel has halved – from 187,586 to 94,451 – largely due to funding shortfalls.”

Meanwhile the same institute estimates in its 2025 Global Peace Index that “The economic impact of violence is now US$19.97 trillion, or 11.6 per cent of global GDP, driven by rising military spending and conflict-related losses.”

In 2026, those costs are going to be way higher because of the enormous damage already being done to energy infrastructure in the Gulf and to global trade flows.

So part of the ordering solution needs to be spreading an understanding that cutting the funds for peacekeeping, peacebuilding and conflict prevention is quite literally a false economy.

This case is powerfully made in a great new article from NYU’s Centre on International Cooperation:

Few news headlines describe when a city’s homicide rate falls quietly over a decade, when a community at risk never quite tips into gang recruitment, when a potential terrorist is redirected by a counsellor rather than arrested by a counter-terrorism unit, or when a conflict is narrowly averted. Successful prevention is often invisible. And that is why it often keeps losing to the politics of urgency.”

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The Iran war rages on, oil prices continues to surge, and inflation spikes. When will we be in a global recession? Do we see stagflation coming back? Can military action open and secure the Strait of Hormuz? Or is that also a Chimera? Are the Disorderers doing this all on purpose do they benefit from all this Disorder?

This week, Jason Pack and Mark Lobel discuss the big picture economic problems of the Iran war, including: America’s doomed insurance and military proposals to get oil moving through the Strait of Hormuz again, the collosal impact of continued closure on the global economy; the situation on America’s and Britain’s relationships with their Gulf allies; what rising oil prices and swelling Russian coffers means for Russia’s war on Ukraine; why China could be a surprise Orderer in this (if they chose to play the part); Starmer’s triangulating response to this crisis; and – as they Order the Disorder – the role Britain and Europe could play in mediating this conflict.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Listen: OIES Podcast – The US-Israeli War with Iran: Continuing Impacts on Oil Markets

 https://open.spotify.com/episode/2kLZsWi4x8d6LU7d1le91J?si=0tVfxYmdRRS7QYx7GhZNbQ&ct=1&t=1 

Nations Respond With Caution to Trump’s Call to Send Warships to Strait of Hormuz: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/15/world/middleeast/trump-strait-of-hormuz-iran-warships.html 

Is Trump having another Taj Mahal moment on our YouTube channel: 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/V6HTwiNG_Ck

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Well, the quagmire has set in. The Iran war is in its second week and Oil Prices are above $100 a barrel and even though it was clear from the first shots being fired it is now manifest that Trump has no strategy. And his ability to act with impunity shows that constraining leaders to act with strategy rather than just opportunism is a key aspect of democracy and accountability.

We are trying to focus on solutions, to see what is working in Britain, and to chat through various amorphous topics, such as: ‘What is Strategy?’ and why does democracy have a communications problem.

In 2011, statistics show that 11 democracies suffered backsliding into autocracy. Today: that number is in the mid-40s. With Trump’s America at the peak of that shift, what can be done to reverse that trend? And better yet, what can be done to protect all democracies going forward? Can institutions be made in advance that could protect democratic backsliding before it happens?!?

To build on our recent episode with Graham Zellick on how democracy is protected in the UK, Jason is joined by Richard Symons. Richard is the founder of Compass & Co —a UK-based strategy and communications firm helping leaders with policy, corporate strategy, and clear messaging in complex environments. 

They discuss the pressing issue of democratic backsliding, what it means, what causes it, some innovative solutions being proposed, including in Wales, and as they Order the Disorder, they look at the need for a ‘right to facts’ type law, and why bold leadership is needed to maintain democracy.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on compass and Co https://www.compass-strat.com/ 

Read: The Revenge of Power: How Autocrats Are Reinventing Politics for the 21st Century - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Revenge-Power-Autocrats-Reinventing-Politics/dp/B096WDF625/ 

Read: Has Wales found the solution to Autocracy? https://justhinkin.substack.com/p/has-wales-found-the-solution-to-autocracy?r=3cs2wr 

Read: What's Really Driving America to In’soul'vency? https://justhinkin.substack.com/p/whos-driving-the-insoulvency?r=3cs2wr

Listen to our episode with Sir Geoff Mulgan to hear more about his Right to Truth idea: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/Y2Y1ZTFhOTAtZjJjNC0xMWYwLTljMTMtYzc5MjBhZmIxYTU0 

Listen to our episode with Elie Honig where similar issues are addressed in the US context and how the powerful are held to account via the Special Prosecutor system: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/NmU0ZGIzZTQtYjhhMS0xMWYwLTk0NWQtZWZlN2MwMWI1YWJm 

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It is a crazy week for the Middle East and the World. For those wanting the Iran War content mentioned at the episode start where Jason appeared on three different podcasts addressing various aspects of the conflict (its congressional illegality; the parallels with the No Fly Zone over Libya; and the Epstein distraction aspects) please consult those links in the shownotes, we think those podcasts are awesome.

But back to the matter at hand, Trump certainly knows how to dominate the news cycle but mostly he does so via means that illegal and impeachable in the United States. Why then are the powerful able to be held to account in the UK (e.g. Lord Mandelson and former Prince Andrew) but not in the USA? 

No one is above the law in Britain. TRULY. Not the Lords, not the Princes of the realm. And Parliamentarians don’t decide who is prosecuted and the Government can’t protect its friends. And this analysis isn’t BS. It is literally vouched for by the people who have designed and operated the current legal system.

With the arrest of Lord Mandelson and Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, Britons can TRULY say that their legal system does actually seriously investigate powerful people who have done something wrong and that the system is beyond partisan influence. 

What makes the British legal system work? And what are its vulnerabilities? Is it more fragile than we realise?

Today, Jason Pack is joined by Professor Graham Zellick, a distinguished public and constitutional lawyer, university leader and judge, to explore the UK’s rather remarkable constitution (or lack of). They look at the independence of bodies like the Crown Prosecution Service; how and why they are beyond political interference; and whether they need to be protected from a potential future Neo-populist leader. And as they Order the Disorder, they debate whether these bodies need to be strengthened yet further, or if Farage or an equivalent could dismantle them as quickly as Trump has done in the US. They explain that Britian has built into its ‘constitution’ a lot of the solutions already and that there is actually much that can be learned from it on the world stage.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Iran content as discussed in the intro to the episode:

Why the Iran war is congressionally illegal ‘Jason Pack debating Trump’s NSC Exec Dir on BBC 5 Live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ0rg-Dmw5M

But What if Iran Disintegrates Into Chaos? Great Espionage, Where's the Wisdom Now?

Jason Pack on the Mossad Files with Dan Raviv https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/but-what-if-iran-disintegrates-into-chaos-great-espionage/id1796257169?i=1000753187080 

The 2011 Libya No Fly Zone is the correct analogy for the 2026 aerial war against Iran https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIbfFKJYLOo

#50 - Epstein, Iran, and Who Benefits When the World Burns Jason on Regilio v Everything.  https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/50-epstein-iran-and-who-benefits-when-the-world-burns/id1834972973?i=1000752957478

For more on Graham visit https://www.academicspeakersbureau.com/speakers/graham-zellick 

Listen to our episode with Elie Honig where similar issues are addressed in the US context and how the powerful are held to account via the Special Prosecutor system: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/NmU0ZGIzZTQtYjhhMS0xMWYwLTk0NWQtZWZlN2MwMWI1YWJm 

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/06/world/europe/iran-london-spying-arrest-jewish-community.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share

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Trump is clearly bored of peace.  So bored. Shortly before the United States and Israel were poised to launch an attack on Iran later in the week, Israeli and American intelligence spotted, on Saturday morning local time, that the entire Iranian leadership including the Supreme Leader Ali Khamanei (and likely his son Mojtaba) as well as key IRGC commanders were going to meet to discuss the ongoing negotiations strategy in central Tehran. Hence, The United States and Israel therefore decided to adjust the timing of their planned attack and decapitate most of the country’s leadership.

So now, the entire Middle East is at war, Trump has practiced another regime decapitation operation without Congressional approval and Iran has rained down missiles across the Sunni Gulf and Israel killing civilians and targeting key infrastructure like airports and tourist hotels. 

Jane and Jason ask why, when and how? Is this whole thing just a disorderly distraction from Trump’s appearance in the Epstein files and his desire to give Pam Bondi cover for her ongoing coverup? Jason thinks that is the primary motivation. Jane and Jason agree that Trump is unlikely to have an end game and that regime change has never worked solely via airpower and that even with a popular uprising that may now emerge, the situation could resemble Libya, which hasn’t exactly had the greatest track record since Western airpower helped a popular uprising oust Qadhafi.

As Jane and Jason try to Order the Disorder, they talk about solutions and where Europe, the UN, and regional allies could try to steer the region towards a more peaceful outcome. Critically, they discuss the issue of the lack of depth (i.e. America and Israel running out of missile interceptors) and how the political and military realms may interact to provide solutions and offramps, especially if the Gulfis and Europeans mediate. Time to head to the Omani Embassy in Geneva… that is my favourite place to be.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

The C.I.A. Helped Pinpoint a Gathering of Iranian Leaders. Then Israel Struck:  https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/01/us/politics/cia-israel-ayatollah-compound.html 

At Least Eight Killed After Iranian Missile Hits Central Israeli City: 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-security/2026-03-01/ty-article/.premium/at-least-five-killed-after-iranian-missile-hits-central-israeli-city/0000019c-a962-d4dd-a9df-bbe250410000 

Few will mourn leader of ‘evil’ regime Ali Khamenei, says UK defence secretary: 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2026/mar/01/uk-defence-secretary-john-healey-few-will-mourn-ali-khamenei-iran-us-israel

Iran Is Built to Withstand the Ayatollah’s Assassination

The U.S. and Israeli militaries are targeting Iran’s leaders—but that may only strengthen the state.: https://foreignpolicy.com/2026/02/28/iran-khamenei-ayatollah-assassination-israel-us-war/?tpcc=must_read_email&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=%5BMust-Read%5D%20Obit%20Khamenei%20-%20022826&utm_term=iran_israel_conflict_interest_90day_emailopen 

Why are the US and Israel attacking Iran? What we know so far: 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/2/28/us-and-israel-attack-iran-what-we-know-so-far

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For this bonus episode, we invite the orderers to hear a lightly-edited recording of Jason Pack appearing on our sister pod, KeenOn America, where Andrew and Jason discuss Jason’s belief that there was a genuine cover-up by Anglo-American media and the US and UK governments of the Jeffrey Epstein case—not orchestrated by the CIA, but by prosecutors who didn’t want to go after powerful people, journalists who didn’t want to go against an oligarch who could sue them for libel, and a system where orders of magnitudes too much wealth has accrued to too narrow a sliver of global elites. So despite being anti-conspiratorial, Jason concludes that the cover up and the conspiracy were real.

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on KeenOn go to https://www.keenon.tv/episodes/ 

To join our Mega Orderers Club for ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Podcasts mentioned:

Disorder Episode 167 — "Epstein Survivor Rina Oh on Getting Justice: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/MThlZTFkZjgtMGI4NS0xMWYxLWJkMWMtOGY0YjYzYzZiZGYw 

Disorder Episode 168 — "How Can Epstein's Victims Get Closure? with Civil Rights Attorney Lisa Bloom: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/M2M2NThlNjAtMGI4NS0xMWYxLWExOWItMDcxODNmNmQ5OTky 

Bobby Capucci's "Jeffrey Epstein: The Cover-Up Chronicles" — deep dives into the Epstein files: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Jeffrey-Epstein-The-Coverup-Chronicles/dp/B0DZPKRYFG 

Jewish Currents — left-wing Jewish treatment of Epstein's connections to Ehud Barak and the Mossad: https://jewishcurrents.org/on-jeffrey-epstein 

Peter Bale interview (Episode 2813) — discussed the Epstein media cover-up and Michael Wolff's attempts to interest mainstream media: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUNxStxgdxg 

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Here at Disorder, we love solutions, so much so that we’re going to be putting even more solutions into our episodes, by trying to zoom out from developments in the news to potential solutions. This week we start our treatment of news items and then zooming out to solutions with the arrest of former Prince Andrew, the latest from the Epstein files, and the inaugural meeting of Trump’s Board of Peace.

In this episode, Jane and Jason are brimming with ideas, including: how to better police the role of British elites when they play the role of Butlers to the world of dark money and act as useful idiots in reputation laundering; how we could possibly learn from the Olympic spirit to create our very own Mega Ordering ‘diplomatic Olympics’; why Europe needs to step up and play the Ordering role; and how they – and other democracies globally – could set up their own ‘diplomatic board of peace’ to counter Trump’s largely farcical iteration.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, to get our bonus episode answering Jonathan Bull’s question about Jason’s elitism and political mobilization in America, as well as ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

To join our Mega Orderers Club, to get our bonus episode answering Jonathan Bull’s question, as well as ad free listening, early episode releases and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

LISTEN: Epstein and the Capitalist Conspiracy - Jewish Currents Podcast https://jewishcurrents.org/epstein-and-the-capitalist-conspiracy 

Something’s Rotten in the Norwegian Royal Family - Vanity Fair https://apple.news/A1A_GZVoYR1mIJeh5TYqXZQ 

Watch Jane about the Munich Conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6SjrRsPpUQ&t=751s 

New law will 'criminalise lying' by senior ministers: https://x.com/skynews/status/2024746880656163082?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g

Trump gathers members of Board of Peace for first meeting, with some U.S. allies wary – NPR  https://apple.news/AFjSdW9dCTu6SdN_niMDNHg

Who is at the Board of Peace Conference: https://x.com/mike_wagenheim/status/2024439124845895684?s=46&t=Tbkgp9CYb-P2gQf2YVZ19g 

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This is the second in our two-part series shining a light on Epstein survivors and their real-life stories. In this episode, Mark Lobel is joined by civil rights attorney Lisa Bloom, who represents many of Epstein’s victims. Bloom reveals how she has recently been approached by new potential clients in the wake of the recent release of yet more documents from the Epstein Files. She calls Epstein “one of the most prolific sexual predators the world has ever seen”. She discusses why the American Justice system has not helped the powerless achieve justice against the rich and powerful. She explains how this needs to be fixed.

As Mark and Lisa Order the Disorder, she outlines what justice would look like for the Epstein victims and how we as a world can improve how we acheive justice for victims of grooming and sexual abuse. Lisa proposes the concrete step of advocating for a blanket ban on the statute of limitations for sexual abuse.  

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

For more on Lisa and her work visit: https://thebloomfirm.com/lawyer/lisa-bloom/ 

READ: Chuck Schumer's Floor Remarks Introducing Virginia's Law To Help Provide Justice For Survivors Of Abuse

https://www.democrats.senate.gov/news/press-releases/leader-schumer-floor-remarks-introducing-virginias-law-to-help-provide-justice-for-survivors-of-abuse  

READ: Todd Blanche says review of Jeffrey Epstein sex-trafficking case ‘is over’

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/feb/01/epstein-files-todd-blanche-deputy-ag 

READ: Epstein files reference 'nine-year-old victim' in disturbing unredacted emails seen by lawmakers

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/unredacted-epstein-files-girl-9-mention-emails-b1270395.html 

The theatrical play 'Here There are Blueberries' discussed on the show:

https://www.stratfordeast.com/whats-on/all-shows/here-there-are-blueberries 

READ: Melinda French Gates References a 'Reckoning as a Society' over Bill Gates Epstein Claims

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/celebrity/articles/melinda-french-gates-references-reckoning-180726489.html 

You can get in touch with Mark, to host or speak at your event here: https://www.mark-lobel.com/getintouch 

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