In this bonus episode, Jane and Jason are joined by former Israeli Ambassador to South Africa, Ilan Baruch, to present a unique perspective on a possible route to peace between Israel and Palestine. Amb. Baruch is a part of the ‘Policy Working Group’, which advocates for ‘leveling the playing field’ between Israelis and Palestinians. 

We discuss the need for ‘equality’ among parties in negotiations, the role of the UK and international community in peace efforts, and what recognition of Palestinian statehood actually means for peace. Plus: changes in Israeli and Diasporic Jewish public opinion regarding a two-state solution, and as they Order the Disorder, Amb. Baruch puts forward a vision for a peaceful future in the Middle East and the role of international powers in achieving it. Jason pushes back on this vision of an Israel-Palestinian condominium as overly optimistic, but hopefully it makes for a great listen.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

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Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

NGO MONITOR—SHRINKING SPACE:   http://policyworkinggroup.org.il/ 

Listen to World Report https://open.spotify.com/show/5qaYz2SRxlPUszXZQWNl1U?utm_source=chatgpt.com 

For more on Ilan Baruch’s work: https://www.pascalboniface.com/2024/09/11/interview-two-israeli-diplomats-denounce-netanyahus-gaza-policy/ 

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The US president has said he plans to sue the BBC, even after getting an apology for a misleading Panorama edit of his 6 January speech. But how could he do that national broadcaster of America’s greatest ally? And will the BBC cave?

To find out, Jason is joined again by returning cohost, Mark Lobel. They discuss the BBC’s next moves and whether Trump’s lawsuit actually has any merit. Plus: they dissect a tumultuous week for Keir Starmer, Rachel Reeve’s budgetary reversals, Wes Streeting’s ‘leadership challenge’ and what this all means for actuality of centrist leadership. And as they look to Order the Disorder, they discuss the issue of wealth inequality as today’s greatest global challenge, and why radical transparency and generosity might be what’s needed to fix it.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Pls Join the Mega Orderers Club for ad-free listening and early release of the episodes, via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

For more on Mark Lobel visit https://www.mark-lobel.com/ 

Read Yuval Noah Harari: Only generosity can secure peace between Israelis and Palestinians https://www.ft.com/content/04078017-18b1-4c63-8521-198c69684255 

Read Zach Polanski The right can mock my teeth all it wants – it shows the Greens have struck a nerve https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/nov/10/green-party-zack-polanski-struck-nerve-politics 

Read Upper East Side Moms Are Melting Down Over Mamdani - New York Magazine https://www.thecut.com/article/moms-of-the-upper-east-side-facebook-meltdown-mamdani.html 

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For a special crossover episode with the Democracy Works podcast, Jenna Spinelle talks with Jason. They discuss the state of democracy around the world and why making America's government more like a European country might not be the solution to our current polarization that some democracy reformers hope it will be. We also contrast the current state of play in the US and UK and speculate as to why Keir Starmer has been such a disappointment and how the UK is not able to provide a model of centre-left governance to the US in the way that Jason might have hoped.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

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Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

For more on Democracy works visit: https://democracyworks.simplecast.com/ 

To listen to Jason on yet another podcast, try his appearance on Practical Stoicism talking about the completely different topic of backgammon and the importance of being disciplined and self aware: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/practical-stoicism/id1603004118?i=1000734643776

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Central Park West Apartments for all! Freeze the Rent! Free Palestine! Jason goes on a screed that is sure to bemuse, offend, and enlighten. He showcases the myriad ways in which Mamdani’s leftwing populism is not so dissimilar to Trump’s disordering offerings.

In the wake of Zohran Mamdani’s victory in the New York Mayoral Election, Democrats face a choice. How do they talk about the issues he won on – cost of living, housing, transport – but from a centrist perspective? Or do they even try and double down on the socialism? Because… if Mamdani’s populist hard left politics win out, could they be handing the next presidency to JD Vance?

This week, Jason and Jane discuss the implications of the recent elections in the US, not just in New York City, but across the country. They debate the rise of Zohran Mamdani and how it raises questions profound questions about the soul of America, about nativism, identity politics, and the need for the Democratic Party to learn from centrist candidates to regain voter trust. And as they Order the Disorder, Jane and Jason discuss the growing need for experts in politics, and how populism – whether on the left or right of – isn’t the answer.

To join our Mega Orderers Club, and get ad free listening, early episode releases, bonus content and exclusive access to live events, visit https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

Producer: George McDonagh

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Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

The Fall of New York City in 8 Charts: This is why Mamdani won-- https://www.frontpagemag.com/the-fall-of-new-york-city-in-8-charts

Listen back to Ep3. The Rise of the Neo-Populists https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/NGIxZDgwNGUtNGQ4Ni0xMWVlLWFlMTUtMWYxMWNiYzVkN2Jk 

Timecodes

Chapters

00:00 - 01:44: Intro 

01:44 - 20:28: The Rise of Zohran Mamdani and the Dilemma for Democrats

20:28 - 37:56: What does this mean for wider US politics?

37:56 - end: Ordering the Disorder

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In institutional design, the US justice system is more independent than its European counterparts. Even though the US President selects his Attorney General, a corrupt President can be dealt with not only via impeachment, but in Principal through independent special counsels pursing justice while avoiding potential conflicts of interest. And yet… from Hillary’s emails to Trump’s possible collusion with Russia and promotion of an insurrection, the Special Prosecutor system hasn't worked as it should. And now despite all those checks and balances, we have a weaponized justice, with a more political DOJ under Pam Bondi being used to pursue revenge against Trump’s enemies. 

How did we get to here? Why can’t the American system – designed with the most checks and balances -- work to hold power to account?

To find out, Jason is joined this week by Elie Honig, senior legal analyst for CNN and author of When You Come at the King: Inside DOJ's Pursuit of the President, from Nixon to Trump. This episode is brought to you in partnership with the New Books Network. They discuss the legal details of Watergate, Hillary Clinton’s emailgate, the Mueller investigation, and Jan 6. As they order the disorder, Elie and Jason consider whether and how the system can be reformed, and the importance of courage and integrity within the justice system.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: ⁠https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/⁠

For more on our New Books Network partnership visit ⁠https://newbooksnetwork.com/category/up-partners/disorder⁠ 

Buy When You Come at the King: Inside DOJ's Pursuit of the President, from Nixon to Trump by Elie Honig ⁠https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-You-Come-King-President/dp/0063447363⁠ 

Read Why The Supreme Court Might Strike Down Trumps Tariffs ⁠https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/why-the-supreme-court-might-strike-down-trumps-tariffs.html⁠

Read The John Bolton Indictment Is Different ⁠https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/the-john-bolton-indictment-is-different/ar-AA1OESRh?apiversion=v2&domshim=1&noservercache=1&noservertelemetry=1&batchservertelemetry=1&renderwebcomponents=1&wcseo=1⁠

Watch Elie Honig on the Lincoln Project ⁠https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSEytVs2Er4⁠ 

Read a review of Elie’s book at ⁠https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/elie-honig/when-you-come-at-the-king/⁠ 

Another take on Elie’s book ⁠https://historynerdsunited.com/2025/09/when-you-come-at-the-king-by-elie-honig-book-review/⁠ 

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In this listener questions episode, Jason and Jane discuss a range of issues from Israel-Gaza, to football hooliganism, to Kaliningrad (the Russian exclave), to the possibility of mega ordering institutions. They start by analysing the strategic importance of an alliance with Israel to the US by dissecting the Realist and Neo-conservative cases. Jane and Jason revisit the controversy of Maccabi Tel Aviv fans being banned from Birmingham by delving into the intersection of football and politics and the difference of fan culture in the US and UK. After the break, Jane and Jason tackle the questions: do sanctions on Russia go far enough? Could there be sanctions against the Kaliningrad exclave? Are we closer to nuclear war with Russia since the drone strikes? Why are we normalising Trump’s White House renovations? And as they Order the Disorder: we return as always to the need for a mega ordering club of democracies, how we decide on a common set of European values, and if the Ave Europe charity is on the right track.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/

Read the Ave Europa Charter: https://ave-europa.eu/charter/ 

Mearsheimer on ‘The Israel Lobby's Awesome Power’ https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/the-israel-lobbys-awesome-power

And push back against his thoughts: https://www.israelfactcheck.com/debunking-mearsheimer-walt-s-theories-on-israel-influence 

Some background on Kaliningrad: https://besacenter.org/kaliningrad-russias-exclave-in-europe/ 

Other perspectives on the rights of football fans and Maccabi hooliganism: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2025/oct/21/police-intelligence-on-extreme-maccabi-fans-with-history-of-violence-led-to-villa-park-ban

Fighting for the rights of football fans

How a Cambridge researcher fought for the rights of football fans and won: https://www.cam.ac.uk/stories/footballact2012 

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As Trump parades across the Middle East collecting adulation for his ‘eternal peace’ deal, Jane and Jason break down the realities and explain that what was achieved was merely a hostage release, prisoner swap, and ceasefire. With Phase 2 looming and infighting already starting in Gaza, they look at the role of the various international actors (like Qatar, Egypt, UK, US) in possibly creating technocratic governance of Gaza. Plus: Is now the time for an Iran peace deal and as the UN Charter turns 80, what might the future of the organisation be?

Finally, as they Order the Disorder, they discuss the need for progressive politicians to become better communicators.

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

For an explainer on Iran latest, read Gaza Ceasefire Could Give Iran Another Chance at Negotiations with the US - https://www.stimson.org/2025/gaza-ceasefire-could-give-iran-another-chance-at-negotiations-with-the-us/ 

Watch Jane discussing what’s next for Middle East - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alTViSc3FJk 

Read UN says countries are willing to help fund Gaza's $70 bln reconstruction https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-states-willing-fund-gazas-70-bln-rebuild-2025-10-14/ 

Read Why Was the President of FIFA at the Gaza Summit? https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/14/world/middleeast/gianni-infantino-fifa-trump.html 

Read What Gaza has been like since the ceasefire in Vox - https://apple.news/Ao4Xzg8yKT5-aVo-nm8769A 

Read BBC Expert Says The Israel-Palestine Conflict 'Will Continue' Despite Trump's Peace Plan - https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/bbc-expert-says-the-israel-palestine-conflict-will-continue-despite-trumps-peace-plan_uk_68eb5d49e4b0abf20b6b0850?ncid=APPLENEWS00001  

Watch Syrian President Ahmed al-Sharaa interview with CBC https://share.google/Eik7y67VmISQHiegN 

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To discuss from a Palestinian perspective the fallout of October 7th, two years of the Gaza War, and the suffering of the Palestinians from occupation, displacement, cantonization, and bombardments, Jason is joined by Sam Bahour, a Palestinian-American entrepreneur based in Ramallah. There is much said in this episode that Jason does not agree with but rather than constantly arguing with the guest, Jason is committed to presenting different points of view and tried to err on the side of letting Sam speak so the listener can make up their own mind, especially when contrasting the narrative with the episode with Phil Rosenberg from last week.

Sam and Jason discuss the implications of the recently announced and implemented Trump’s ‘Eternal Peace’ which is really just a Gaza ceasefire in exchange for Israeli hostage releases, the realities of life in the West Bank under Israeli occupation, the economic challenges of reconstruction of Gaza and standing up Palestinian institutions, and the role of the international community states in those state building and reconstruction efforts. Jason and Sam disagree agreeably about the role of the international community and technocratic governments in Palestine and beyond, while Bahour emphasizes the need for Palestinian self-determination and leadership. 

And as Sam Orders the Disorder, he highlights how changing dynamics in U.S. support for Israel and Palestine could result in a different dynamic in the Middle East. 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm/ 

For more of Sam’s writing visit https://epalestine.ps/sambahour/ 

To Check out our previous episode Commemorating October 7th Part 1: Phil Rosenberg, President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews click here: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/ep-146-commemorating-october-7th-part-1-phil-rosenberg/id1706818264?i=1000730501569 

Read Jason's piece Internationalize the Solution for Gaza and Iran https://natoandtheged.substack.com/p/internationalize-the-solution-for

Read Gazans Are Finished With Hamas https://www.wsj.com/opinion/gazans-are-finished-with-hamas-commander-popular-forces-5d9a6345

Israel is backing a militia known for looting aid in Gaza https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2025/06/09/israel-is-backing-a-militia-known-for-looting-aid-in-gaza_6742148_4.html

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This timely episode was recorded before the horrors of the Manchester Yom Kippur Synagogue terrorist attack of October 2nd and the potential optimism of the Trump deal to end the Gaza War which is currently in limbo. This episode deals extensively with issues of antisemitism, humanitarian suffering in Gaza, and the potentialities of Middle East peace. As we mark 2 years since the horrific October 7th massacre in Israel -- and the disastrous regional wars and tragic humanitarian crisis in Gaza that have ensued in its wake-- we here at Disorder are producing a two-episode series dealing with the legacy of that fateful day: one from a British-Jewish perspective and one from a Palestinian-American perspective. 

Join us next week to hear our conversation with Sam Bahour, who will give the perspective from Ramallah. 

Producer: George McDonagh

Subscribe to our Substack - https://natoandtheged.substack.com/

Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm?sc_promo=DISORDER10

Read a report from Phil’s organisation on the Response to 7th October – how the UK Jewish community was impacted.

https://www.jpr.org.uk/reports/year-after-october-7-british-jewish-views-israel-antisemitism-and-jewish-life 

For more on Trump’s Gaza peace initiative: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/10/05/world/middleeast/trump-netanyahu-gaza-deal.html 

For more on The Board of Deputies of British Jews work to tackle antisemitism visit https://bod.org.uk/bod-news/commission-on-antisemitism/ 

For a legal and structural argument for why recognition of a Palestinian State will  not help make piece listen to this Call Me Back episode: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/call-me-back-with-dan-senor/id1539292794?i=1000727804529 

Listen to our previous episode with Joseph Uscinski on Conspiracy Theories and their hidden logic: https://open.spotify.com/episode/2nvlI3hR1VFyMbgKaZddyi 

Listen to our previous episode on extremism and Conspiracy Theories with Julia Ebner: https://pod.link/1706818264/episode/MjJkNjlmZDItMDExZi0xMWYwLTg4MWUtZGZjZDhiYzFhNTEz

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When Trump stormed into UNGA last week, complained about escalators and tele prompters, and swung back out… the UN was faced with some questions. How do we navigate a world through Trump’s America? And what does it mean for the very future of the UN?

To find out, and reflect on UNGA as a whole, Jane is joined by Richard Gowan, the International Crisis Group's UN expert. They discuss Trump’s speech, Netanyahu’s appearance, and who will be the next UN Secretary General when elections take place?

Producer: George McDonagh

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Disorder on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@DisorderShow

Show Notes Links:

Join the Mega Orderers Club via this link: https://disorder.supportingcast.fm?sc_promo=DISORDER10

Read Richard’s piece ‘Ten Challenges for the UN in 2025-2026’ https://www.crisisgroup.org/global/sb13-ten-challenges-un-2025-2026 

Read Richard in Foreign Policy on America’s Infuriating and Irreplaceable Role at the U.N. https://foreignpolicy.com/2025/09/19/trump-washington-united-nations-unga-reform/ 

Read Calls grow for first female UN chief in 80 years https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/calls-grow-first-female-un-chief-80-years-2025-09-26/ 

Burmese academic Thant Myint-U on the legacy of his grandfather, former SG U Thant, and the need for the UN to reclaim its role in peace and security - https://www.chathamhouse.org/publications/the-world-today/2025-09/u-thant-helped-save-world-nuclear-war-1962-who-could-do-now 

Martin Griffiths, former UN humanitarian chief, on the UN at 80, including his thought on the Black Sea grain deal that Richard referenced - https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/aug/26/un-recover-courage-palestine-ukraine-sudan 

Listen to To Save Us From Hell, Mark Goldberg's podcast about the UN, focusing here on Trump's speech - https://www.globaldispatches.org/p/your-countries-are-going-to-hell-9f5

Watch Jane’s thoughts from New York https://www.youtube.com/shorts/iBppHmWp8Cc 

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