Birgitta Elfversson, Non-executive director at Netlight Consulting AB

Lars Elfversson, VP/Co-Founder, Netlight Consulting AB

In fragmented industries, roll-ups are one of the most powerful strategies available. But high-volume acquisition programs come with hidden risks. Without discipline, complexity can quickly overwhelm value creation.

In this episode, Birgitta Elfversson, Non-executive director at Netlight Consulting AB, and Lars Elfversson, VP/Co-Founder, Netlight Consulting AB, share hard-won lessons from building and governing multiple roll-up platforms. Drawing on their experience as operators, board members, and investors, they outline the structural guardrails required to execute consolidation strategies successfully.

The conversation goes beyond sourcing and valuation to issues that determine long-term success.

What you'll learn:

• Why small pipelines create dangerous decision pressure
• How subtle drift reshapes portfolios over time
• The importance of defining and defending an acquisition framework
• Why most roll-ups fail because of people, not numbers
• How inconsistent integration across acquisitions compounds complexity
• Why clarity (whether full, partial, or no integration) must be defined early and communicated clearly

They also discuss governance discipline, board oversight, founder psychology, and the realities of market timing and exit decisions.

If you're building or advising a roll-up platform, this episode is a practical guide to avoiding deal fever and installing the guardrails that protect strategy.

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This episode is sponsored by DealRoom

The best M&A teams close deals faster...not because they work harder, but because they have better systems. DealRoom helps you manage your entire deal lifecycle from target identification through close. No more hunting for documents or wondering what's blocking progress. Request a Demo today

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Become an M&A Scientist: www.mascience.com/membership - $995/year for full access to the Intelligence Hub

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[00:02:38] From Organic Builder to PE Rollups – Lars and Birgitta contrast building companies 100% organically vs. scaling through programmatic M&A.

[00:10:07] Validating the Rollup Thesis – How PE firms test market fundamentals, recruit operators, and pressure-test early industry hypotheses.

[00:13:02] Defining the Acquisition Framework – Setting guardrails on size, profitability, services, and integration logic before chasing deals.

[00:15:46] Avoiding Deal Fever with Massive Pipelines – Why long target lists prevent desperation, strategy drift, and "must-win" mistakes.

[00:21:07] Saving Your Silver Bullets – How board members influence management without overplaying authority or derailing alignment.

[00:23:43] Why Deals Go Off the Rails – How incentives, scarcity, and human bias quietly nudge teams away from original criteria.

[00:29:10] Picking the Right Companies to Buy – The three core filters: business model, size compatibility, and profitability profile.

[00:46:06] Integration Depth Drives Exit Value – Why partial integration destroys valuation and how buyers now scrutinize ERP, systems, and operational cohesion.

[01:01:56] Signing 27 Deals in One Day – A firsthand look at high-velocity rollups and the operational intensity behind scaling platforms.

[01:02:37] The Craziest Thing in M&A – Accounting "creativity," forward-recognized revenue, and a deal so distorted it forced a divestiture and loss.

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Questions, comments, concerns?Follow Kison Patel for behind-the-scenes insights on modern M&A.

No guest today. No interview. Just Kison talking directly to you.

After 400 episodes and nearly 100 founding members, Kison wanted to give you a real update - where M&A Science has been, what we're building, and where this is going.

In this episode:

• Why episodes are moving to Thursdays
• How the Intelligence Hub actually works (and why it's better for M&A than ChatGPT)
• What's coming next: Buyer-Led M&A Certification and Enterprise Intelligence Hub
• Ways to get involved: Membership and the Deal Leader program

If you've been part of this journey, this one's for you.

Ready to join? Become an M&A Scientist: www.mascience.com/membership - $995/year for full access to the Intelligence Hub, live sessions, and practitioner community.

Limited time: Become a member by March 1st, get $100 to the M&A Science shop.

Want to contribute? Become a Deal Leader (20+ deals required): Email [email protected]

Too many deals fail not because the strategy was wrong, but because execution realities surfaced too late.

Ciprian Stan, M&A Integration Manager at SALESIANER Gruppe, is back for part 2. In this portion of the interview, he shares a practitioner's perspective on why integration must inform strategy before a deal is signed, never after.

The conversation explores why cultural non-negotiables rarely surface through checklists, how trust shapes execution outcomes, and why early commitments must survive post-close reality. Ciprian explains why integration leaders need to ask smarter questions, and how technology (including AI) should support judgment rather than replace it.

This episode is for corp dev leaders, integration managers, and executives who want fewer surprises after close and more durable deal outcomes. If you missed part 1, make sure to catch that first, where we talk about building preliminary integration plans during diligence and why customization beats templates. Then come back for the trust and execution reality in part 2.

Things You'll Learn

• Why execution constraints should shape deal strategy early
• How cultural non-negotiables actually surface in diligence
• The role of trust in integration success
• Why earnouts often fail when execution reality changes
• How AI can support integration thinking—if used responsibly

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Hitting pipeline or execution challenges?

The State of M&A Report shows what other deal teams are dealing with and how they're adapting.

Download the full report today: https://hubs.ly/Q03ZxRvD0

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[00:04:29] Knowing When to Kill a Deal – Why smart executives walk away when sunk costs, ego, and reputation start driving bad decisions.

[00:05:12] Integration Non-Negotiables – The critical role of a "red team" and trusted challengers in stress-testing deal assumptions early.

[00:05:50] Custom Diligence, Not Checkbox M&A – How tailoring diligence to the deal thesis prevents wasted effort and missed risks.

[00:06:25] The Thousand-Checklist Trap – Why dumping massive integration plans on teams backfires—and how to narrow focus without losing rigor.

[00:07:28] Diligence Should Shape Integration – Aligning integration plans directly to value drivers uncovered during diligence.

[00:10:17] Pre-Signing Integration Plans – Why having a preliminary integration roadmap before signing is essential to execution and accountability.

[00:11:55] Trust Is the Real Integration Currency – How trust matters more after close than before—and how it's easily damaged.

[00:15:18] Earn-Outs That Blow Up Trust – How overlapping acquisitions can quietly sabotage earn-outs and poison seller relationships.

[00:19:29] When Culture and Ops Both Fail – The red-line rule: why deals with both operational and cultural issues should not get done.

[00:23:03] AI, IP, and the Future of M&A Work – Why technology is becoming commoditized and experience-driven judgment is the real differentiator.

[00:33:58] Defining IP in the Tech Era – Debating whether intellectual property lies in the technology itself or in unique, qualitative content and human insight. I have a question like what IP

[00:47:10] The Craziest Thing in M&A – A deal dies after buyers are forbidden from entering one room during diligence—raising irreversible trust red flags.

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Questions, comments, concerns? Follow Kison Patel for behind-the-scenes insights on modern M&A.

Most M&A deals fail because integration was "something to figure out later". By the time execution realities, cultural risks, and people impacts surface, the deal is locked, and teams must work around untested assumptions.

In this episode of the M&A Science podcast, Ciprian Stan, M&A Integration Manager at SALESIANER Gruppe, explains that integration must be a strategic input to increase chances of success.

Things You'll Learn

• The importance of involving Integration early in the process
• Pre LOI preparations and expectations
• Cultural Diligence and what to look for
• How to communicate the deal the right way

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Want to know what 100+ deal professionals learned in 2025? The State of M&A 2026 Report by DealRoom breaks down the real challenges, trends, and priorities shaping M&A this year. Download your copy now: https://hubs.ly/Q03ZxRvD0

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[00:03:38] From Computer Science to M&A Integration – How an engineering background shaped Ciprian's integration mindset.

[00:07:41] First Exposure to M&A by Accident – Learning integration the hard way through a CBRE–Johnson Controls acquisition.

[00:10:18] Systems Thinking in Integration – Why no single workstream (IT, culture, ops) should dominate integration.

[00:13:54] Proactive vs. Reactive Buyers – How deliberate M&A strategy outperforms impulse and competitive-response deals.

[00:16:08] What "Good Strategy" Actually Looks Like – Using geographic and capability gaps to drive successful acquisitions.

[00:21:40] Why Integration Must Be Involved Early – How late involvement leads to unexecutable deal strategies.

[00:23:47] LOI Reality Check – Managing uncertainty, pricing flexibility, and risk before committing to a deal.

[00:33:19] Three Schools of Thought on Culture – Ignoring culture, adapting to it, or using it as a value-creation lever.

[00:43:53] The Case for Time Between Sign and Close – Why integration planning works best with a deliberate gap before closing.

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Questions, comments, concerns? Follow Kison Patel for behind-the-scenes insights on modern M&A.

M&A isn't just about closing deals, it's about making the deal actually work.

Carlos Cesta, M&A advisor and founder of his own boutique advisory practice, spent 30 years on the buy-side at Verizon, Dentsu, Presidio, and NP Digital. He's worked 125+ deals across telecom, advertising, and digital marketing. Now he's flipped to advisory, bringing that buy-side operator mindset to entrepreneurs preparing for exit.

In this episode of the M&A Science Podcast, Carlos Cesta, Partner at Makanta Services, breaks down how seasoned buyers really think about M&A. Not as a linear process, but as a series of decisions that constantly reshape one another.

Carlos shares why strategy is as much about what not to pursue, and he also explains why one-size-fits-all deal templates fail, how earnouts are often misused, and what experienced buyers do differently to protect value after closing.

Things You'll Learn:

• Why M&A strategy also means defining what you WON'T buy
• The deal spiral model experienced buyers use
• How to start integration planning before LOI
• How to structure earnouts that actually work
• Using deal structure earnouts as a risk management tool

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💡Running M&A with a lean team? DealRoom helps you do more with less. Manage your pipeline, coordinate diligence, track deliverables, and keep stakeholders aligned- all in one place.

👉See it in action by requesting a demo:https://hubs.ly/Q03ZMvQX0

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[00:03:34] Carlos Cesta Background – 30 years in corporate development across Verizon, Dentsu, Presidio, and NP Digital with 125+ deals executed.

[00:05:27] Standing Up M&A from Zero – What it really takes to build an M&A function when no corporate development muscle exists.

[00:09:32] Strategy Before Transactions – Why defining what NOT to buy is more important than chasing opportunistic deals.

[00:11:05] Programmatic M&A Through Cycles – How repeatable, strategy-led M&A creates value across economic and technology shifts.

[00:14:21] Blending Venture and M&A Thinking – Using VC-style investments to manage disruption and future-proof acquisition strategy.

[00:17:23] The Deal Spiral Framework – Why deal structure, diligence, and integration must evolve together, not linearly.

[00:21:57] Designing the End State First – Starting with culture, leadership, and go-to-market alignment before signing an LOI.

[00:30:21] Creative Earnout Engineering – Structuring earnouts to de-risk deals while aligning seller incentives.

[00:36:39] Optimizing for Outcome, Not Closing – Why long-term performance matters more than deal certainty or headline price.

[00:59:14] Craziest M&A Story – A cautionary tale about diligence failures involving a meth lab explosion.

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Questions, comments, concerns?Follow Kison Patel for behind-the-scenes insights on modern M&A.

Christian Hassold, Senior Vice President of Corporate Development and Strategic Partnerships at Wpromote x Giant Spoon

Christian has been on both sides of M&A as a serial founder and corporate development leader. In this episode, Christian shares his hard-earned lessons about culture as the ultimate deal-breaker in M&A. He breaks down the subtle red flags that founders miss when evaluating acquisition targets, explains why he interviews employees before talking to investors, and shares the fascinating story of acquiring a competitor that was shutting down—where culture assessment made all the difference. Christian also introduces his 5-pillar lean M&A framework and explains why "commit to close" doesn't mean ignoring red flags, but rather cataloging them until you have enough evidence that culture fit is fundamentally broken.

Things You'll Learn

• Why interviewing employees before investors reveals the real culture story—and the specific red flags that signal a deal should stop
• How to distinguish between fixable cultural friction and fundamental misalignment that will crater post-merger integration
• The "commit to close" philosophy that balances conviction with cataloging red flags—knowing when three strikes means you walk away

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💡Stop juggling six different tools to run one deal. DealRoom brings pipeline management, diligence tracking, document sharing, and team collaboration into one platform. Purpose-built for M&A teams who need to move fast without losing control.

👉Request your demo today:https://hubs.ly/Q03ZMvQX0

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[00:03:00] The Entrepreneur's Path to Corporate Development – How building and selling three companies shaped Christian's view on culture fit

[00:10:30] Three Things I Wish I Knew Before My First Deal – Why assuming nothing about culture and motivations is critical [00:13:00] The Lean M&A Framework for Culture Assessment – Five pillars that put people and culture at the center of deal evaluation

[00:16:00] Deep Dive the Business: Beyond Numbers – Why talking to customers and employees reveals culture gaps before they kill deals

[00:22:30] Commit to Close vs. Catalog Red Flags – When dishonesty, fraud, or culture misalignment should stop a deal immediately

[00:27:00] Culture as the Ultimate Deal-Breaker – The difference between management style preferences and irreconcilable cultural dysfunction

[00:31:00] Post-Merger Integration Starts Day One – Why the PMI team needs a front-row seat on culture assessment from the IOI forward

[00:54:30] The Hub Logics Story: Interviewing Employees First – How Christian uncovered the real reasons a competitor failed by talking to the team [01:12:18] The Craziest M&A Story – AI-driven M&A is redefining tech valuations—exits are now priced at multiples of capital raised rather than traditional ARR or EBITDA.

Questions, comments, concerns?Follow Kison Patel for behind-the-scenes insights on modern M&A.

Donara Jaghinyan, returns for Part 2 of our conversation on what actually breaks integrations after the deal closes. This episode tackles the messy reality of post-merger execution: integration debt that piles up when long-tail items don't get done, change management as a practical framework (not corporate fluff), and the cultural friction that surfaces in cross-border deals. Donara shares firsthand experiences navigating gender-based hierarchy in Middle Eastern TSA negotiations, building trust across geographies, and managing the communication breakdowns that create employee uncertainty. If you missed Part 1, listen to that first—then come back for the operational realities that determine whether your deal actually delivers value.

Things You'll Learn

• What integration debt actually is and why long-tail items get forgotten six months post-close without a formal tracking system
• Change management as a framework, not fluff—identifying friction points, enabling change agents, and communicating up to seven times before messages reach end users
• Cross-border cultural challenges that don't show up in diligence, including hierarchy-based decision-making and relationship-building strategies that work globally

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💡 Today's Episode is Sponsored by DealRoom

The best M&A teams close deals faster...not because they work harder, but because they have better systems. DealRoom helps you manage your entire deal lifecycle from target identification through close. No more hunting for documents or wondering what's blocking progress.

👉Request a Demo today: https://hubs.ly/Q03ZMvQX0

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[00:02:00] What Is Integration Debt and Why Track It – Long-tail items that don't close in 90 days and how to prevent them from getting lost after handoff

[00:04:00] Change Management: Framework, Not Fluff – How change management sits on top of integration like Agile and why it's about experience, not just execution

[00:06:00] Culture Isn't a Scapegoat—It's Strategy – Three approaches to culture in M&A: old-school "figure it out," progressive tailoring, and proactive culture transformation

[00:11:00] Implementing Change Management from Scratch – Surveys, assessments, and identifying change agents who can influence adoption before mass rollout

[00:17:30] US Work Standards Don't Translate Globally – Why European lunch breaks and Middle Eastern approval hierarchies require adaptation, not enforcement

[00:19:00] Gender and Hierarchy in Cross-Border TSAs – Donara's experience navigating decision-making challenges as a woman in Middle Eastern TSA negotiations

[00:21:00] Building Trust Across Borders – Human connections that smooth working relationships and create execution momentum

[00:24:00] Where Friction Actually Shows Up – Communication gaps, leadership changes, and employee uncertainty that derail integration plans

[00:27:00] What Goes Wrong and How to Go Fast – Delays, plan shifts, leadership turnover, and why IMOs push back on unrealistic timelines

[00:30:00] The Craziest Things in M&A – From TSAs resolved by title hierarchy to founders walking away from earn-outs mid-integration.

Questions, comments, concerns?Follow Kison Patel for behind-the-scenes insights on modern M&A.

Donara joins us to pull back the curtain on why integrations break—and what it actually takes to make them work. With deep experience across healthcare, SaaS, professional services, and financial services in both public and PE-backed environments, Donara has led diligence, post-close integration, TSA execution, and enterprise system implementations. This episode tackles the hard truths about carve-outs, TSA management, day-one readiness, and the cross-functional dependencies that most teams miss until it's too late. If you've ever wondered why integration timelines slip or costs balloon, this conversation delivers the answers.

Things you will learn:

• Why TSAs aren't contracts, they're projects with hard deadlines, cost escalations, and integration dependencies that functional teams consistently underestimate

• The hidden complexity of carve-outs and how scope, vendor negotiations, and people gaps create surprises even with solid diligence

• How Integration Management Offices (IMOs) orchestrate cross-functional dependencies that functional leads can't see

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💡 Tired of spending weeks organizing seller documents and building diligence checklists from scratch?

DealRoom helps M&A teams cut manual review time and move faster through diligence. Automatically organize messy data rooms, surface risks earlier, and generate tailored diligence requests in seconds—so your team can focus on analysis, not admin work.

👉 See how AI can streamline your next deal: dealroom.net/ai

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Episode Timestamps

• [00:02:30] From International Relations to M&A Integration – Donara's unconventional path from Armenia to becoming a full-time integration leader in Boston

  [00:04:00] The Dependency Problem No One Sees Coming – Why integration isn't just about systems or people—it's about understanding what breaks when you miss upstream and downstream connections

  [00:06:00] Why You Can't Just Promote a PM to IMO – The critical difference between project management and integration program leadership

  [00:07:00] What Gets Underestimated in Carve-Outs – Scope creep, vendor negotiations, and people gaps that blindside even experienced teams

  [00:09:00] TSAs Are Projects, Not Contracts – Why treating TSAs as temporary extensions instead of hard deadlines creates integration debt and cost overruns

  [00:13:00] Managing Two Carve-Outs Simultaneously – The story of integrating two business units with heavy TSAs, cross-border complexity, and mismatched organizational structures

  [00:19:00] Getting IMO Involved Before LOI – How early integration involvement during diligence creates smoother execution and realistic timelines

  [00:30:00] Day One Readiness and the 30/60/90 Framework – What actually happens from day one through the first 90 days, including controls, discovery, and execution milestones

  [00:37:00] Integration Governance That Actually Works – Structuring steering committees, functional cadences, and escalation paths that keep deals on track

  [00:40:00] The Integration Kickoff That Sets the Tone – What to cover, who to involve, and how to align teams on why the deal matters

Questions, comments, concerns?Follow Kison Patel for behind-the-scenes insights on modern M&A.

Andy Cohen, Vice President of Corporate Development at F5 Andy has built a career that proves M&A is fundamentally about relationships, not just transactions. With 30 years of experience and 60 deals closed across high-growth tech companies including Citrix, Acquia, and F5, Andy has cultivated the kind of reputation where every CEO he's worked with will take his call tomorrow. In this conversation, he reveals why zero-sum thinking kills deals, how to convince people to sell without convincing them to sell, and why walking away on principle matters more than closing at any cost.

Things you will learn:

• Why reputation is your most valuable M&A asset
• The shift from zero-sum to win-enough thinking
• Learn Andy's approach to using due diligence as the foundation for integration strategy, cultural fit assessment, and long-term value creation.

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💡 Tired of spending weeks organizing seller documents and building diligence checklists from scratch?

DealRoom helps M&A teams cut manual review time and move faster through diligence. Automatically organize messy data rooms, surface risks earlier, and generate tailored diligence requests in seconds—so your team can focus on analysis, not admin work.

👉 See how AI can streamline your next deal: dealroom.net/ai

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This episode is brought to you by S&P Global.

Today's episode of M&A Science is brought to you by S&P Global Market Intelligence. If you're in corp dev or PE, you know the pain — good private company data is hard to come by. Everyone's still chasing clean, reliable, up-to-date data. I started out using CapIQ Pro for public comps, but didn't realize until recently how deep their private company coverage has gotten. Over 58 million private companies, global reach, and actually usable for real deal work. This isn't surface-level. You get real metrics — ownership, financials, funding rounds, even asset-level insights. So if you're still toggling between a dozen tools trying to piece together the picture, maybe it's time to stop guessing and start sourcing better.

Learn More Here: https://www.spglobal.com/market-intelligence/en/solutions/products/private-company-data?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=MAScienceH225

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Episode Timestamps

• [00:02:30] The Empathy Advantage – Why sitting in every seat at the M&A table gives you the perspective to close better deals.
• [00:04:00] Zero-Sum Thinking Will Kill Your Deals – The mindset shift from "winning" to ensuring everyone gets enough of what they want.
• [00:07:30] Building Relationships That Actually Drive Deals – How a 30-year network of bankers, VCs, and former CEOs creates proprietary deal flow.
• [00:10:30] Why Proactive Beats Auctions Every Time – Why almost all of Andy's deals are proactive and how strategic focus enables targeted outreach.
• [00:14:00] Getting to the Story Behind the Company
• [00:21:00] How to collaboratively build the acquisition narrative without being pushy or transactional.
• [00:25:00] Trust Through Reputation and References
• [00:32:00] Due Diligence Is Integration Planning
• [00:42:00] Navigating the hardest negotiations—convincing product teams that buying beats building
• [00:53:00] Walking Away on Principle – The deal Andy killed because the other side wanted to hurt employee shareholders

Questions, comments, concerns?Follow Kison Patel for behind-the-scenes insights on modern M&A.

In this special father-daughter episode, My daughter interviews me on my new book on Buyer-Led M&A™. We break down the framework built from over 400 practitioner interviews—covering why traditional M&A is flawed, how to shift from reactive auction-chasing to proactive deal sourcing, and why integration planning must begin during diligence. Things you will learn:

• Why integration planning during diligence (not after) determines deal success
• How the five pillars of buyer-led M&A transform reactive processes into strategic engines
• Why proactive deal sourcing beats bank-led auctions every time

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This episode is brought to you by S&P Global.

Today's episode of M&A Science is brought to you by S&P Global Market Intelligence. If you're in corp dev or PE, you know the pain — good private company data is hard to come by. Everyone's still chasing clean, reliable, up-to-date data. I started out using CapIQ Pro for public comps, but didn't realize until recently how deep their private company coverage has gotten. Over 58 million private companies, global reach, and actually usable for real deal work. This isn't surface-level. You get real metrics — ownership, financials, funding rounds, even asset-level insights. So if you're still toggling between a dozen tools trying to piece together the picture, maybe it's time to stop guessing and start sourcing better.

Learn More Here: https://www.spglobal.com/market-intelligence/en/solutions/products/private-company-data?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=MAScienceH225

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Buyer-Led M&A™: The Framework is Now Available

Traditional M&A is broken. Buyers chase auctions. Sellers control the process. It's reactive, inefficient, and exhausting.

After 300+ episodes of M&A Science, I've taken insights from the world's top corp dev leaders and distilled them into a practical framework for taking control of your M&A pipeline—how to source deals directly, build relationships earlier, and stop being auction-chasers.

If you'd like to build a proactive M&A program that founders actually want to engage with, you can grab your copy. https://dealroom.net/resources/ebooks/buyer-led-m-a-tm-the-framework _________________ Everything You Need to Learn Modern M&A — In One Membership

Access proven templates, frameworks, and real operator insights — all designed to help you learn faster, make smarter decisions, and run Buyer-Led M&A with confidence. Sign up now with promo code "FOUNDER" for 50% off at checkout. https://www.mascience.com/membership __________________

Episode Timestamps

[00:00:00] Introduction to Buyer-Led M&A – Kison introduces his new book and the framework for flipping traditional M&A from reactive to proactive deal-making.

[00:05:30] The M&A Science Origin Story

[00:08:30] The Maturity Curve Problem – Why companies make catastrophic mistakes on their first deal and how the buyer-led framework accelerates learning.

[00:12:30] Integration Is Where Value Lives – Understanding that the real work starts after close and why planning integration early prevents people from quitting.

[00:19:00] M&A Has a Design Problem, Not an Execution Problem – Why focusing on closing deals instead of making deals successful creates systemic failure.

[00:25:00] The Five Pillars of Buyer-Led M&A – Breaking down never M&A on impulse, unified tools, synchronized diligence-integration, scalability, and win-win approaches.

[00:37:30] The Three Coats of Conviction – How reactive positioning, integration negligence, and model mirage derail even well-intentioned deals.

[00:49:00] What Elite Buyers Do Differently – Early alignment, clear accountability, defined operating models, and building M&A as an organizational muscle.

[00:54:00] Proprietary Deal Sourcing Beats Auctions – The house-buying analogy that illustrates why doing the hard work of finding your own deals creates better outcomes.

[01:00:30] The Single Most Important Takeaway – Own your assumptions, validate them through rigorous work, and lead the process instead of letting sellers drive it.

Questions, comments, concerns?Follow Kison Patel for behind-the-scenes insights on modern M&A.