What makes something truly *intelligent?* Is a rock an agent? Could a perfect simulation of your brain actually *be* you? In this fascinating conversation, Dr. Jeff Beck takes us on a journey through the philosophical and technical foundations of agency, intelligence, and the future of AI.

Jeff doesn't hold back on the big questions. He argues that from a purely mathematical perspective, there's no structural difference between an agent and a rock – both execute policies that map inputs to outputs. The real distinction lies in *sophistication* – how complex are the internal computations? Does the system engage in planning and counterfactual reasoning, or is it just a lookup table that happens to give the right answers?

*Key topics explored in this conversation:*

*The Black Box Problem of Agency* – How can we tell if something is truly planning versus just executing a pre-computed response? Jeff explains why this question is nearly impossible to answer from the outside, and why the best we can do is ask which model gives us the simplest explanation.

*Energy-Based Models Explained* – A masterclass on how EBMs differ from standard neural networks. The key insight: traditional networks only optimize weights, while energy-based models optimize *both* weights and internal states – a subtle but profound distinction that connects to Bayesian inference.

*Why Your Brain Might Have Evolved from Your Nose* – One of the most surprising moments in the conversation. Jeff proposes that the complex, non-smooth nature of olfactory space may have driven the evolution of our associative cortex and planning abilities.

*The JEPA Revolution* – A deep dive into Yann LeCun's Joint Embedding Prediction Architecture and why learning in latent space (rather than predicting every pixel) might be the key to more robust AI representations.

*AI Safety Without Skynet Fears* – Jeff takes a refreshingly grounded stance on AI risk. He's less worried about rogue superintelligences and more concerned about humans becoming "reward function selectors" – couch potatoes who just approve or reject AI outputs. His proposed solution? Use inverse reinforcement learning to derive AI goals from observed human behavior, then make *small* perturbations rather than naive commands like "end world hunger."

Whether you're interested in the philosophy of mind, the technical details of modern machine learning, or just want to understand what makes intelligence *tick,* this conversation delivers insights you won't find anywhere else.

---

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Geometric Deep Learning & Physical Symmetries

00:00:56 Defining Agency: From Rocks to Planning

00:05:25 The Black Box Problem & Counterfactuals

00:08:45 Simulated Agency vs. Physical Reality

00:12:55 Energy-Based Models & Test-Time Training

00:17:30 Bayesian Inference & Free Energy

00:20:07 JEPA, Latent Space, & Non-Contrastive Learning

00:27:07 Evolution of Intelligence & Modular Brains

00:34:00 Scientific Discovery & Automated Experimentation

00:38:04 AI Safety, Enfeeblement & The Future of Work

---

REFERENCES:

Concept:

[00:00:58] Free Energy Principle (FEP)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_energy_principle

[00:06:00] Monte Carlo Tree Search

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_tree_search

Book:

[00:09:00] The Intentional Stance

https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262540537/the-intentional-stance/

Paper:

[00:13:00] A Tutorial on Energy-Based Learning (LeCun 2006)

http://yann.lecun.com/exdb/publis/pdf/lecun-06.pdf

[00:15:00] Auto-Encoding Variational Bayes (VAE)

https://arxiv.org/abs/1312.6114

[00:20:15] JEPA (Joint Embedding Prediction Architecture)

https://openreview.net/forum?id=BZ5a1r-kVsf

[00:22:30] The Wake-Sleep Algorithm

https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~hinton/absps/ws.pdf

---

RESCRIPT:

https://app.rescript.info/public/share/DJlSbJ_Qx080q315tWaqMWn3PixCQsOcM4Kf1IW9_Eo

PDF:

https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/0efec296b9b6e905/pdf

Professor Mazviita Chirimuuta joins us for a fascinating deep dive into the philosophy of neuroscience and what it really means to understand the mind.*What can neuroscience actually tell us about how the mind works?* In this thought-provoking conversation, we explore the hidden assumptions behind computational theories of the brain, the limits of scientific abstraction, and why the question of machine consciousness might be more complicated than AI researchers assume.Mazviita, author of *The Brain Abstracted,* brings a unique perspective shaped by her background in both neuroscience research and philosophy. She challenges us to think critically about the metaphors we use to understand cognition — from the reflex theory of the late 19th century to today's dominant view of the brain as a computer.*Key topics explored:**The problem of oversimplification* — Why scientific models necessarily leave things out, and how this can sometimes lead entire fields astray. The cautionary tale of reflex theory shows how elegant explanations can blind us to biological complexity.*Is the brain really a computer?* — Mazviita unpacks the philosophical assumptions behind computational neuroscience and asks: if we can model anything computationally, what makes brains special? The answer might challenge everything you thought you knew about AI.*Haptic realism* — A fresh way of thinking about scientific knowledge that emphasizes interaction over passive observation. Knowledge isn't about reading the "source code of the universe" — it's something we actively construct through engagement with the world.*Why embodiment matters for understanding* — Can a disembodied language model truly understand? Mazviita makes a compelling case that human cognition is deeply entangled with our sensory-motor engagement and biological existence in ways that can't simply be abstracted away.*Technology and human finitude* — Drawing on Heidegger, we discuss how the dream of transcending our physical limitations through technology might reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be a knower.This conversation is essential viewing for anyone interested in AI, consciousness, philosophy of mind, or the future of cognitive science. Whether you're skeptical of strong AI claims or a true believer in machine consciousness, Mazviita's careful philosophical analysis will give you new tools for thinking through these profound questions.---TIMESTAMPS:00:00:00 The Problem of Generalizing Neuroscience00:02:51 Abstraction vs. Idealization: The "Kaleidoscope"00:05:39 Platonism in AI: Discovering or Inventing Patterns?00:09:42 When Simplification Fails: The Reflex Theory00:12:23 Behaviorism and the "Black Box" Trap00:14:20 Haptic Realism: Knowledge Through Interaction00:20:23 Is Nature Protean? The Myth of Converging Truth00:23:23 The Computational Theory of Mind: A Useful Fiction?00:27:25 Biological Constraints: Why Brains Aren't Just Neural Nets00:31:01 Agency, Distal Causes, and Dennett's Stances00:37:13 Searle's Challenge: Causal Powers and Understanding00:41:58 Heidegger's Warning & The Experiment on Children---REFERENCES:Book:[00:01:28] The Brain Abstractedhttps://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262548045/the-brain-abstracted/[00:11:05] The Integrated Action of the Nervous Systemhttps://www.amazon.sg/integrative-action-nervous-system/dp/9354179029[00:18:15] The Quest for Certainty (Dewey)https://www.amazon.com/Quest-Certainty-Relation-Knowledge-Lectures/dp/0399501916[00:19:45] Realism for Realistic People (Chang)https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/realism-for-realistic-people/ACC93A7F03B15AA4D6F3A466E3FC5AB7---RESCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/A6cZ1TY35p8ORMmYCWNBI0no9ChU3-Kx7dPXGJURvZ0PDF Transcript:https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/0fb7767e066cf712/pdf

What if everything we think we know about the brain is just a really good metaphor that we forgot was a metaphor?This episode takes you on a journey through the history of scientific simplification, from a young Karl Friston watching wood lice in his garden to the bold claims that your mind is literally software running on biological hardware.We bring together some of the most brilliant minds we've interviewed — Professor Mazviita Chirimuuta, Francois Chollet, Joscha Bach, Professor Luciano Floridi, Professor Noam Chomsky, Nobel laureate John Jumper, and more — to wrestle with a deceptively simple question: *When scientists simplify reality to study it, what gets captured and what gets lost?**Key ideas explored:**The Spherical Cow Problem* — Science requires simplification. We're limited creatures trying to understand systems far more complex than our working memory can hold. But when does a useful model become a dangerous illusion?*The Kaleidoscope Hypothesis* — Francois Chollet's beautiful idea that beneath all the apparent chaos of reality lies simple, repeating patterns — like bits of colored glass in a kaleidoscope creating infinite complexity. Is this profound truth or Platonic wishful thinking?*Is Software Really Spirit?* — Joscha Bach makes the provocative claim that software is literally spirit, not metaphorically. We push back on this, asking whether the "sameness" we see across different computers running the same program exists in nature or only in our descriptions.*The Cultural Illusion of AGI* — Why does artificial general intelligence seem so inevitable to people in Silicon Valley? Professor Chirimuuta suggests we might be caught in a "cultural historical illusion" — our mechanistic assumptions about minds making AI seem like destiny when it might just be a bet.*Prediction vs. Understanding* — Nobel Prize winner John Jumper: AI can predict and control, but understanding requires a human in the loop. Throughout history, we've described the brain as hydraulic pumps, telegraph networks, telephone switchboards, and now computers. Each metaphor felt obviously true at the time. This episode asks: what will we think was naive about our current assumptions in fifty years?Featuring insights from *The Brain Abstracted* by Mazviita Chirimuuta — possibly the most influential book on how we think about thinking in 2025.---TIMESTAMPS:00:00:00 The Wood Louse & The Spherical Cow00:02:04 The Necessity of Abstraction00:04:42 Simplicius vs. Ignorantio: The Boxing Match00:06:39 The Kaleidoscope Hypothesis00:08:40 Is the Mind Software?00:13:15 Critique of Causal Patterns00:14:40 Temperature is Not a Thing00:18:24 The Ship of Theseus & Ontology00:23:45 Metaphors Hardening into Reality00:25:41 The Illusion of AGI Inevitability00:27:45 Prediction vs. Understanding00:32:00 Climbing the Mountain vs. The Helicopter00:34:53 Haptic Realism & The Limits of Knowledge---REFERENCES:Person:[00:00:00] Karl Friston (UCL)https://profiles.ucl.ac.uk/1236-karl-friston[00:06:30] Francois Chollethttps://fchollet.com/[00:14:41] Cesar Hidalgo, MLST interview.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzpFOJRteeI[00:30:30] Terence Tao's Bloghttps://terrytao.wordpress.com/Book:[00:02:25] The Brain Abstractedhttps://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262548045/the-brain-abstracted/[00:06:00] On Learned Ignorancehttps://www.amazon.com/Nicholas-Cusa-learned-ignorance-translation/dp/0938060236[00:24:15] Science and the Modern Worldhttps://amazon.com/dp/0684836394

RESCRIPT:https://app.rescript.info/public/share/CYy0ex2M2kvcVRdMnSUky5O7H7hB7v2u_nVhoUiuKD4PDF Transcript: https://app.rescript.info/api/public/sessions/6c44c41e1e0fa6dd/pdf

Thank you to Dr. Maxwell Ramstead for early script work on this show (Ph.D student of Friston) and the woodlice story came from him!

Dr. Jeff Beck, mathematician turned computational neuroscientist, joins us for a fascinating deep dive into why the future of AI might look less like ChatGPT and more like your own brain.

**SPONSOR MESSAGES START**

—

Prolific - Quality data. From real people. For faster breakthroughs.

https://www.prolific.com/?utm_source=mlst

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*What if the key to building truly intelligent machines isn't bigger models, but smarter ones?*

In this conversation, Jeff makes a compelling case that we've been building AI backwards. While the tech industry races to scale up transformers and language models, Jeff argues we're missing something fundamental: the brain doesn't work like a giant prediction engine. It works like a scientist, constantly testing hypotheses about a world made of *objects* that interact through *forces* — not pixels and tokens.

*The Bayesian Brain* — Jeff explains how your brain is essentially running the scientific method on autopilot. When you combine what you see with what you hear, you're doing optimal Bayesian inference without even knowing it. This isn't just philosophy — it's backed by decades of behavioral experiments showing humans are surprisingly efficient at handling uncertainty.

*AutoGrad Changed Everything* — Forget transformers for a moment. Jeff argues the real hero of the AI boom was automatic differentiation, which turned AI from a math problem into an engineering problem. But in the process, we lost sight of what actually makes intelligence work.

*The Cat in the Warehouse Problem* — Here's where it gets practical. Imagine a warehouse robot that's never seen a cat. Current AI would either crash or make something up. Jeff's approach? Build models that *know what they don't know*, can phone a friend to download new object models on the fly, and keep learning continuously. It's like giving robots the ability to say "wait, what IS that?" instead of confidently being wrong.

*Why Language is a Terrible Model for Thought* — In a provocative twist, Jeff argues that grounding AI in language (like we do with LLMs) is fundamentally misguided. Self-report is the least reliable data in psychology — people routinely explain their own behavior incorrectly. We should be grounding AI in physics, not words.

*The Future is Lots of Little Models* — Instead of one massive neural network, Jeff envisions AI systems built like video game engines: thousands of small, modular object models that can be combined, swapped, and updated independently. It's more efficient, more flexible, and much closer to how we actually think.

Rescript: https://app.rescript.info/public/share/D-b494t8DIV-KRGYONJghvg-aelMmxSDjKthjGdYqsE

---

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Introduction & The Bayesian Brain

00:01:25 Bayesian Inference & Information Processing

00:05:17 The Brain Metaphor: From Levers to Computers

00:10:13 Micro vs. Macro Causation & Instrumentalism

00:16:59 The Active Inference Community & AutoGrad

00:22:54 Object-Centered Models & The Grounding Problem

00:35:50 Scaling Bayesian Inference & Architecture Design

00:48:05 The Cat in the Warehouse: Solving Generalization

00:58:17 Alignment via Belief Exchange

01:05:24 Deception, Emergence & Cellular Automata

---

REFERENCES:

Paper:

[00:00:24] Zoubin Ghahramani (Google DeepMind)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3538441/pdf/rsta201

[00:19:20] Mamba: Linear-Time Sequence Modeling

https://arxiv.org/abs/2312.00752

[00:27:36] xLSTM: Extended Long Short-Term Memory

https://arxiv.org/abs/2405.04517

[00:41:12] 3D Gaussian Splatting

https://repo-sam.inria.fr/fungraph/3d-gaussian-splatting/

[01:07:09] Lenia: Biology of Artificial Life

https://arxiv.org/abs/1812.05433

[01:08:20] Growing Neural Cellular Automata

https://distill.pub/2020/growing-ca/

[01:14:05] DreamCoder

https://arxiv.org/abs/2006.08381

[01:14:58] The Genomic Bottleneck

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-11786-6

Person:

[00:16:42] Karl Friston (UCL)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNYWi996Beg

Tim sits down with Max Bennett to explore how our brains evolved over 600 million years—and what that means for understanding both human intelligence and AI.

Max isn't a neuroscientist by training. He's a tech entrepreneur who got curious, started reading, and ended up weaving together three fields that rarely talk to each other: comparative psychology (what different animals can actually do), evolutionary neuroscience (how brains changed over time), and AI (what actually works in practice).

*Your Brain Is a Guessing Machine*

You don't actually "see" the world. Your brain builds a simulation of what it *thinks* is out there and just uses your eyes to check if it's right. That's why optical illusions work—your brain is filling in a triangle that isn't there, or can't decide if it's looking at a duck or a rabbit.

*Rats Have Regrets*

*Chimps Are Machiavellian*

*Language Is the Human Superpower*

*Does ChatGPT Think?*

(truncated description, more on rescript)

Understanding how the brain evolved isn't just about the past. It gives us clues about:

- What's actually different between human intelligence and AI

- Why we're so easily fooled by status games and tribal thinking

- What features we might want to build into—or leave out of—future AI systems

Get Max's book:

https://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Intelligence-Humans-Breakthroughs/dp/0063286343

Rescript: https://app.rescript.info/public/share/R234b7AXyDXZusqQ_43KMGsUSvJ2TpSz2I3emnI6j9A

---

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Introduction: Outsider's Advantage & Neocortex Theories

00:11:34 Perception as Inference: The Filling-In Machine

00:19:11 Understanding, Recognition & Generative Models

00:36:39 How Mice Plan: Vicarious Trial & Error

00:46:15 Evolution of Self: The Layer 4 Mystery

00:58:31 Ancient Minds & The Social Brain: Machiavellian Apes

01:19:36 AI Alignment, Instrumental Convergence & Status Games

01:33:07 Metacognition & The IQ Paradox

01:48:40 Does GPT Have Theory of Mind?

02:00:40 Memes, Language Singularity & Brain Size Myths

02:16:44 Communication, Language & The Cyborg Future

02:44:25 Shared Fictions, World Models & The Reality Gap

---

REFERENCES:Person:

[00:00:05] Karl Friston (UCL)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNYWi996Beg

[00:00:06] Jeff Hawkins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VQILbDqaI4

[00:12:19] Hermann von Helmholtz

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hermann-helmholtz/

[00:38:34] David Redish (U. Minnesota)

https://redishlab.umn.edu/

[01:10:19] Robin Dunbar

https://www.psy.ox.ac.uk/people/robin-dunbar

[01:15:04] Emil Menzel

https://www.sciencedirect.com/bookseries/behavior-of-nonhuman-primates/vol/5/suppl/C

[01:19:49] Nick Bostrom

https://nickbostrom.com/

[02:28:25] Noam Chomsky

https://linguistics.mit.edu/user/chomsky/

[03:01:22] Judea Pearl

https://samueli.ucla.edu/people/judea-pearl/

Concept/Framework:

[00:05:04] Active Inference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkR24ieh5Ow

Paper:

[00:35:59] Predictions not commands [Rick A Adams]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23129312/

Book:

[01:25:42] The Elephant in the Brain

https://www.amazon.com/Elephant-Brain-Hidden-Motives-Everyday/dp/0190495995

[01:28:27] The Status Game

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58642436-the-status-game

[02:00:40] The Selfish Gene

https://amazon.com/dp/0198788606

[02:14:25] The Language Game

https://www.amazon.com/Language-Game-Improvisation-Created-Changed/dp/1541674987

[02:54:40] The Evolution of Language

https://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Language-Approaches/dp/052167736X

[03:09:37] The Three-Body Problem

https://amazon.com/dp/0765377063

César Hidalgo has spent years trying to answer a deceptively simple question: What is knowledge, and why is it so hard to move around?

We all have this intuition that knowledge is just... information. Write it down in a book, upload it to GitHub, train an AI on it—done. But César argues that's completely wrong. Knowledge isn't a thing you can copy and paste. It's more like a living organism that needs the right environment, the right people, and constant exercise to survive.

Guest: César Hidalgo, Director of the Center for Collective Learning

1. Knowledge Follows Laws (Like Physics)

2. You Can't Download Expertise

3. Why Big Companies Fail to Adapt

4. The "Infinite Alphabet" of Economies

If you think AI can just "copy" human knowledge, or that development is just about throwing money at poor countries, or that writing things down preserves them forever—this conversation will change your mind. Knowledge is fragile, specific, and collective. It decays fast if you don't use it.

The Infinite Alphabet [César A. Hidalgo]

https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/458054/the-infinite-alphabet-by-hidalgo-cesar-a/9780241655672

https://x.com/cesifoti

Rescript link.

https://app.rescript.info/public/share/eaBHbEo9xamwbwpxzcVVm4NQjMh7lsOQKeWwNxmw0JQ

---

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 The Three Laws of Knowledge

00:02:28 Rival vs. Non-Rival: The Economics of Ideas

00:05:43 Why You Can't Just 'Download' Knowledge

00:08:11 The Detective Novel Analogy

00:11:54 Collective Learning & Organizational Networks

00:16:27 Architectural Innovation: Amazon vs. Barnes & Noble

00:19:15 The First Law: Learning Curves

00:23:05 The Samuel Slater Story: Treason & Memory

00:28:31 Physics of Knowledge: Joule's Cannon

00:32:33 Extensive vs. Intensive Properties

00:35:45 Knowledge Decay: Ise Temple & Polaroid

00:41:20 Absorptive Capacity: Sony & Donetsk

00:47:08 Disruptive Innovation & S-Curves

00:51:23 Team Size & The Cost of Innovation

00:57:13 Geography of Knowledge: Vespa's Origin

01:04:34 Migration, Diversity & 'Planet China'

01:12:02 Institutions vs. Knowledge: The China Story

01:21:27 Economic Complexity & The Infinite Alphabet

01:32:27 Do LLMs Have Knowledge?

---

REFERENCES:

Book:

[00:47:45] The Innovator's Dilemma (Christensen)

https://www.amazon.com/Innovators-Dilemma-Revolutionary-Change-Business/dp/0062060244

[00:55:15] Why Greatness Cannot Be Planned

https://amazon.com/dp/3319155237

[01:35:00] Why Information Grows

https://amazon.com/dp/0465048994

Paper:

[00:03:15] Endogenous Technological Change (Romer, 1990)

https://web.stanford.edu/~klenow/Romer_1990.pdf

[00:03:30] A Model of Growth Through Creative Destruction (Aghion & Howitt, 1992)

https://dash.harvard.edu/server/api/core/bitstreams/7312037d-2b2d-6bd4-e053-0100007fdf3b/content

[00:14:55] Organizational Learning: From Experience to Knowledge (Argote & Miron-Spektor, 2011)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228754233_Organizational_Learning_From_Experience_to_Knowledge

[00:17:05] Architectural Innovation (Henderson & Clark, 1990)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/200465578_Architectural_Innovation_The_Reconfiguration_of_Existing_Product_Technologies_and_the_Failure_of_Established_Firms

[00:19:45] The Learning Curve Equation (Thurstone, 1916)

https://dn790007.ca.archive.org/0/items/learningcurveequ00thurrich/learningcurveequ00thurrich.pdf

[00:21:30] Factors Affecting the Cost of Airplanes (Wright, 1936)

https://pdodds.w3.uvm.edu/research/papers/others/1936/wright1936a.pdf

[00:52:45] Are Ideas Getting Harder to Find? (Bloom et al.)

https://web.stanford.edu/~chadj/IdeaPF.pdf

[01:33:00] LLMs/ Emergence

https://arxiv.org/abs/2506.11135

Person:

[00:25:30] Samuel Slater

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater

[00:42:05] Masaru Ibuka (Sony)

https://www.sony.com/en/SonyInfo/CorporateInfo/History/SonyHistory/1-02.html

This is a lively, no-holds-barred debate about whether AI can truly be intelligent, conscious, or understand anything at all — and what happens when (or if) machines become smarter than us.

Dr. Mike Israetel is a sports scientist, entrepreneur, and co-founder of RP Strength (a fitness company). He describes himself as a "dilettante" in AI but brings a fascinating outsider's perspective.

Jared Feather (IFBB Pro bodybuilder and exercise physiologist)

The Big Questions:

1. When is superintelligence coming?

2. Does AI actually understand anything?

3. The Simulation Debate (The Spiciest Part)

4. Will AI kill us all? (The Doomer Debate)

5. What happens to human jobs and purpose?

6. Do we need suffering?

Mikes channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfQgsKhHjSyRLOp9mnffqVg

RESCRIPT INTERACTIVE PLAYER: https://app.rescript.info/public/share/GVMUXHCqctPkXH8WcYtufFG7FQcdJew_RL_MLgMKU1U

---

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Introduction & Workout Demo

00:04:15 ASI Timelines & Definitions

00:10:24 The Embodiment Debate

00:18:28 Neutrinos & Abstract Knowledge

00:25:56 Can AI Learn From YouTube?

00:31:25 Diversity of Intelligence

00:36:00 AI Slop & Understanding

00:45:18 The Simulation Argument: Fire & Water

00:58:36 Consciousness & Zombies

01:04:30 Do Reasoning Models Actually Reason?

01:12:00 The Live Learning Problem

01:19:15 Superintelligence & Benevolence

01:28:59 What is True Agency?

01:37:20 Game Theory & The "Kill All Humans" Fallacy

01:48:05 Regulation & The China Factor

01:55:52 Mind Uploading & The Future of Love

02:04:41 Economics of ASI: Will We Be Useless?

02:13:35 The Matrix & The Value of Suffering

02:17:30 Transhumanism & Inequality

02:21:28 Debrief: AI Medical Advice & Final Thoughts

---

REFERENCES:

Paper:

[00:10:45] Alchemy and Artificial Intelligence (Dreyfus)

https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/papers/2006/P3244.pdf

[00:10:55] The Chinese Room Argument (John Searle)

https://home.csulb.edu/~cwallis/382/readings/482/searle.minds.brains.programs.bbs.1980.pdf

[00:11:05] The Symbol Grounding Problem (Stephen Harnad)

https://arxiv.org/html/cs/9906002

[00:23:00] Attention Is All You Need

https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762

[00:45:00] GPT-4 Technical Report

https://arxiv.org/abs/2303.08774

[01:45:00] Anthropic Agentic Misalignment Paper

https://www.anthropic.com/research/agentic-misalignment

[02:17:45] Retatrutide

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37366315/

Organization:

[00:15:50] CERN

https://home.cern/

[01:05:00] METR Long Horizon Evaluations

https://evaluations.metr.org/

MLST Episode:

[00:23:10] MLST: Llion Jones - Inventors' Remorse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtePicx_kFY

[00:50:30] MLST: Blaise Agüera y Arcas Interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMSEqJ_4EBk

[01:10:00] MLST: David Krakauer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dY46YsGWMIc

Event:

[00:23:40] ARC Prize/Challenge

https://arcprize.org/

Book:

[00:24:45] The Brain Abstracted

https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Abstracted-Simplification-Philosophy-Neuroscience/dp/0262548046

[00:47:55] Pamela McCorduck

https://www.amazon.com/Machines-Who-Think-Artificial-Intelligence/dp/1568812051

[01:23:15] The Singularity Is Nearer (Ray Kurzweil)

https://www.amazon.com/Singularity-Nearer-Ray-Kurzweil-ebook/dp/B08Y6FYJVY

[01:27:35] A Fire Upon The Deep (Vernor Vinge)

https://www.amazon.com/Fire-Upon-Deep-S-F-MASTERWORKS-ebook/dp/B00AVUMIZE/

[02:04:50] Deep Utopia (Nick Bostrom)

https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Utopia-Meaning-Solved-World/dp/1646871642

[02:05:00] Technofeudalism (Yanis Varoufakis)

https://www.amazon.com/Technofeudalism-Killed-Capitalism-Yanis-Varoufakis/dp/1685891241

Visual Context Needed:

[00:29:40] AT-AT Walker (Star Wars)

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/All_Terrain_Armored_Transport

Person:

[00:33:15] Andrej Karpathy

https://karpathy.ai/

Video:

[01:40:00] Mike Israetel vs Liron Shapira AI Doom Debate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaDWSPMdM4o

Company:

[02:26:30] Examine.com

https://examine.com/

We often think of Large Language Models (LLMs) as all-knowing, but as the team reveals, they still struggle with the logic of a second-grader. Why can’t ChatGPT reliably add large numbers? Why does it "hallucinate" the laws of physics? The answer lies in the architecture. This episode explores how *Category Theory* —an ultra-abstract branch of mathematics—could provide the "Periodic Table" for neural networks, turning the "alchemy" of modern AI into a rigorous science.

In this deep-dive exploration, *Andrew Dudzik*, *Petar Velichkovich*, *Taco Cohen*, *Bruno Gavranović*, and *Paul Lessard* join host *Tim Scarfe* to discuss the fundamental limitations of today’s AI and the radical mathematical framework that might fix them.

TRANSCRIPT:

https://app.rescript.info/public/share/LMreunA-BUpgP-2AkuEvxA7BAFuA-VJNAp2Ut4MkMWk

---

Key Insights in This Episode:

* *The "Addition" Problem:* *Andrew Dudzik* explains why LLMs don't actually "know" math—they just recognize patterns. When you change a single digit in a long string of numbers, the pattern breaks because the model lacks the internal "machinery" to perform a simple carry operation.

* *Beyond Alchemy:* deep learning is currently in its "alchemy" phase—we have powerful results, but we lack a unifying theory. Category Theory is proposed as the framework to move AI from trial-and-error to principled engineering. [00:13:49]

* *Algebra with Colors:* To make Category Theory accessible, the guests use brilliant analogies—like thinking of matrices as *magnets with colors* that only snap together when the types match. This "partial compositionality" is the secret to building more complex internal reasoning. [00:09:17]

* *Synthetic vs. Analytic Math:* *Paul Lessard* breaks down the philosophical shift needed in AI research: moving from "Analytic" math (what things are made of) to "Synthetic" math [00:23:41]

---

Why This Matters for AGI

If we want AI to solve the world's hardest scientific problems, it can't just be a "stochastic parrot." It needs to internalize the rules of logic and computation. By imbuing neural networks with categorical priors, researchers are attempting to build a future where AI doesn't just predict the next word—it understands the underlying structure of the universe.

---

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 The Failure of LLM Addition & Physics

00:01:26 Tool Use vs Intrinsic Model Quality

00:03:07 Efficiency Gains via Internalization

00:04:28 Geometric Deep Learning & Equivariance

00:07:05 Limitations of Group Theory

00:09:17 Category Theory: Algebra with Colors

00:11:25 The Systematic Guide of Lego-like Math

00:13:49 The Alchemy Analogy & Unifying Theory

00:15:33 Information Destruction & Reasoning

00:18:00 Pathfinding & Monoids in Computation

00:20:15 System 2 Reasoning & Error Awareness

00:23:31 Analytic vs Synthetic Mathematics

00:25:52 Morphisms & Weight Tying Basics

00:26:48 2-Categories & Weight Sharing Theory

00:28:55 Higher Categories & Emergence

00:31:41 Compositionality & Recursive Folds

00:34:05 Syntax vs Semantics in Network Design

00:36:14 Homomorphisms & Multi-Sorted Syntax

00:39:30 The Carrying Problem & Hopf Fibrations

Petar Veličković (GDM)

https://petar-v.com/

Paul Lessard

https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-roy-lessard/

Bruno Gavranović

https://www.brunogavranovic.com/

Andrew Dudzik (GDM)

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-dudzik-222789142/

---

REFERENCES:

Model:

[00:01:05] Veo

https://deepmind.google/models/veo/

[00:01:10] Genie

https://deepmind.google/blog/genie-3-a-new-frontier-for-world-models/

Paper:

[00:04:30] Geometric Deep Learning Blueprint

https://arxiv.org/abs/2104.13478

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIZB1hIJ4u8

[00:16:45] AlphaGeometry

https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.08312

[00:16:55] AlphaCode

https://arxiv.org/abs/2203.07814

[00:17:05] FunSearch

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06924-6

[00:37:00] Attention Is All You Need

https://arxiv.org/abs/1706.03762

[00:43:00] Categorical Deep Learning

https://arxiv.org/abs/2402.15332

Is a car that wins a Formula 1 race the best choice for your morning commute? Probably not. In this sponsored deep dive with Prolific, we explore why the same logic applies to Artificial Intelligence. While models are currently shattering records on technical exams, they often fail the most important test of all: **the human experience.**

Why High Benchmark Scores Don’t Mean Better AI

Joining us are **Andrew Gordon** (Staff Researcher in Behavioral Science) and **Nora Petrova** (AI Researcher) from **Prolific**. They reveal the hidden flaws in how we currently rank AI and introduce a more rigorous, "humane" way to measure whether these models are actually helpful, safe, and relatable for real people.

---

Key Insights in This Episode:

* *The F1 Car Analogy:* Andrew explains why a model that excels at the "Humanities Last Exam" might be a nightmare for daily use. Technical benchmarks often ignore the nuances of human communication and adaptability.

* *The "Wild West" of AI Safety:* As users turn to AI for sensitive topics like mental health, Nora highlights the alarming lack of oversight and the "thin veneer" of safety training—citing recent controversial incidents like Grok-3’s "Mecha Hitler."

* *Fixing the "Leaderboard Illusion":* The team critiques current popular rankings like Chatbot Arena, discussing how anonymous, unstratified voting can lead to biased results and how companies can "game" the system.

* *The Xbox Secret to AI Ranking:* Discover how Prolific uses *TrueSkill*—the same algorithm Microsoft developed for Xbox Live matchmaking—to create a fairer, more statistically sound leaderboard for LLMs.

* *The Personality Gap:* Early data from the **Humane Leaderboard** suggests that while AI is getting smarter, it is actually performing *worse* on metrics like personality, culture, and "sycophancy" (the tendency for models to become annoying "people-pleasers").

---

About the HUMAINE Leaderboard

Moving beyond simple "A vs. B" testing, the researchers discuss their new framework that samples participants based on *census data* (Age, Ethnicity, Political Alignment). By using a representative sample of the general public rather than just tech enthusiasts, they are building a standard that reflects the values of the real world.

*Are we building models for benchmarks, or are we building them for humans? It’s time to change the scoreboard.*

Rescript link:

https://app.rescript.info/public/share/IDqwjY9Q43S22qSgL5EkWGFymJwZ3SVxvrfpgHZLXQc

---

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Introduction & The Benchmarking Problem

00:01:58 The Fractured State of AI Evaluation

00:03:54 AI Safety & Interpretability

00:05:45 Bias in Chatbot Arena

00:06:45 Prolific's Three Pillars Approach

00:09:01 TrueSkill Ranking & Efficient Sampling

00:12:04 Census-Based Representative Sampling

00:13:00 Key Findings: Culture, Personality & Sycophancy

---

REFERENCES:

Paper:

[00:00:15] MMLU

https://arxiv.org/abs/2009.03300

[00:05:10] Constitutional AI

https://arxiv.org/abs/2212.08073

[00:06:45] The Leaderboard Illusion

https://arxiv.org/abs/2504.20879

[00:09:41] HUMAINE Framework Paper

https://huggingface.co/blog/ProlificAI/humaine-framework

Company:

[00:00:30] Prolific

https://www.prolific.com

[00:01:45] Chatbot Arena

https://lmarena.ai/

Person:

[00:00:35] Andrew Gordon

https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-gordon-03879919a/

[00:00:45] Nora Petrova

https://www.linkedin.com/in/nora-petrova/

Event:

Algorithm:

[00:09:01] Microsoft TrueSkill

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/trueskill-ranking-system/

Leaderboard:

[00:09:21] Prolific HUMAINE Leaderboard

https://www.prolific.com/humaine

[00:09:31] HUMAINE HuggingFace Space

https://huggingface.co/spaces/ProlificAI/humaine-leaderboard

[00:10:21] Prolific AI Leaderboard Portal

https://www.prolific.com/leaderboard

Dataset:

[00:09:51] Prolific Social Reasoning RLHF Dataset

https://huggingface.co/datasets/ProlificAI/social-reasoning-rlhf

Organization:

[00:10:31] MLCommons

https://mlcommons.org/

What if everything we think we know about AI understanding is wrong? Is compression the key to intelligence? Or is there something more—a leap from memorization to true abstraction?

In this fascinating conversation, we sit down with **Professor Yi Ma**—world-renowned expert in deep learning, IEEE/ACM Fellow, and author of the groundbreaking new book *Learning Deep Representations of Data Distributions*. Professor Ma challenges our assumptions about what large language models actually do, reveals why 3D reconstruction isn't the same as understanding, and presents a unified mathematical theory of intelligence built on just two principles: **parsimony** and **self-consistency**.

**SPONSOR MESSAGES START**

—

Prolific - Quality data. From real people. For faster breakthroughs.

https://www.prolific.com/?utm_source=mlst

—

cyber•Fund https://cyber.fund/?utm_source=mlst is a founder-led investment firm accelerating the cybernetic economy

Hiring a SF VC Principal: https://talent.cyber.fund/companies/cyber-fund-2/jobs/57674170-ai-investment-principal#content?utm_source=mlst

Submit investment deck: https://cyber.fund/contact?utm_source=mlst

—

**END**

Key Insights:

**LLMs Don't Understand—They Memorize**

Language models process text (*already* compressed human knowledge) using the same mechanism we use to learn from raw data.

**The Illusion of 3D Vision**

Sora and NeRFs etc that can reconstruct 3D scenes still fail miserably at basic spatial reasoning

**"All Roads Lead to Rome"**

Why adding noise is *necessary* for discovering structure.

**Why Gradient Descent Actually Works**

Natural optimization landscapes are surprisingly smooth—a "blessing of dimensionality"

**Transformers from First Principles**

Transformer architectures can be mathematically derived from compression principles

—

INTERACTIVE AI TRANSCRIPT PLAYER w/REFS (ReScript):

https://app.rescript.info/public/share/Z-dMPiUhXaeMEcdeU6Bz84GOVsvdcfxU_8Ptu6CTKMQ

About Professor Yi Ma

Yi Ma is the inaugural director of the School of Computing and Data Science at Hong Kong University and a visiting professor at UC Berkeley.

https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~yima/

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=XqLiBQMAAAAJ&hl=en

https://x.com/YiMaTweets

**Slides from this conversation:**

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/sbhbyievw7idup8j06mlr/slides.pdf?rlkey=7ptovemezo8bj8tkhfi393fh9&dl=0

**Related Talks by Professor Ma:**

- Pursuing the Nature of Intelligence (ICLR): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LT-F0xSNSjo

- Earlier talk at Berkeley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TihaCUjyRLM

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00:00 Introduction

00:02:08 The First Principles Book & Research Vision

00:05:21 Two Pillars: Parsimony & Consistency

00:09:50 Evolution vs. Learning: The Compression Mechanism

00:14:36 LLMs: Memorization Masquerading as Understanding

00:19:55 The Leap to Abstraction: Empirical vs. Scientific

00:27:30 Platonism, Deduction & The ARC Challenge

00:35:57 Specialization & The Cybernetic Legacy

00:41:23 Deriving Maximum Rate Reduction

00:48:21 The Illusion of 3D Understanding: Sora & NeRF

00:54:26 All Roads Lead to Rome: The Role of Noise

00:59:56 All Roads Lead to Rome: The Role of Noise

01:00:14 Benign Non-Convexity: Why Optimization Works

01:06:35 Double Descent & The Myth of Overfitting

01:14:26 Self-Consistency: Closed-Loop Learning

01:21:03 Deriving Transformers from First Principles

01:30:11 Verification & The Kevin Murphy Question

01:34:11 CRATE vs. ViT: White-Box AI & Conclusion

REFERENCES:

Book:

[00:03:04] Learning Deep Representations of Data Distributions

https://ma-lab-berkeley.github.io/deep-representation-learning-book/

[00:18:38] A Brief History of Intelligence

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BRIEF-HISTORY-INTELLIGEN-HB-Evolution/dp/0008560099

[00:38:14] Cybernetics

https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262730099/cybernetics/

Book (Yi Ma):

[00:03:14] 3-D Vision book

https://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-0-387-21779-6

refs on ReScript link/YT