It’s easy to condemn the horror stories coming out of Noma, the celebrated restaurant in Copenhagen. But this week, Jay Goltz, Jennifer Kerhin, and Ted Wolf confront a harder question: How far are the rest of us—business owners in every industry—from crossing the line? Because it’s not just restaurants. Most owners don’t set out to be abusive. They set out to build something great. And somewhere along the way, high standards can start to blur into something else. ‘I was out of control when I was in my 20s,’ Jay admits.

So, what changed? And where did the owners land? How much command and control is actually necessary? When does pushing someone cross the line—and when does not pushing them enough become its own failure? Have you ever held onto the wrong employee too long? Or pushed the right one too hard? Jay doesn’t sugarcoat his opinion about yellers: “You’re going to tell me you’re passionate. I’m going to tell you, ‘You’re an asshole.’”

The group digs into the trade-offs every owner faces: hiring versus managing, systems versus stars, culture versus performance. What do you do with the high performer who damages the team? Can you really coach anyone to excellence—or are there limits? And then there’s the quiet warning sign many owners ignore: Something goes wrong, and someone says, “Oh, well, everybody knows how Bob is.” That, says Jay, is when you know you’ve got a problem. This is a conversation about judgment calls—messy, human, unavoidable. Because as Jennifer puts it, “It’s really hard to manage people.”