A tricky part about all of this stuff we do in business and online is to not let the work consume you.

I know people say that your work is not your worth, and I get it, but it’s really hard for me to disconnect from that. To show the world what you’ve built and put it into the hands of your super fans. To punch up as the underdog and prove to the Goliath that you can win in this arena too.

It’s addictive, it’s fulfilling, it’s enriching for us and hopefully those around us.

Jordan Gal returns to the Matt Report to share in his next chapter, Rally. Jordan brings the passion, he’s a business builder I’m on the sidelines rooting for. We’ll explore his challenges with building on a platform like Shopify and how he plans to disrupt that with his latest play in decentralized (and headless) e-commerce.

“Just when I thought I was out…they pull me back in” a famous line from Godfather Part III and a recurring theme I’ve noticed for those of who have used WordPress for a while.

No matter how much we might moan about the shortcomings of WordPress, it’s still pretty darn powerful. The core of WordPress is getting better, read: Gutenberg and Full Site Editing. Some sharp edges, yes, but software is software — it will iterate into something great.

Maybe you left WordPress a few years ago because of Gutenberg, but I bet you second guessed yourself when that Netlify CMS lacked a user and permissions system, custom post types, and an easy way to install a contact form.

Oh, and what about ecommerce? Yeah…well…what about it?! WooCommerce, still the sleeping giant, is about to get some lemon squeezed right in the eye.

JR Farr returns to the Matt Report to talk about his latest product, Lemon Squeezy. A NOT Easy Digital Downloads alternative that’s looking to take it’s share of the e-commerce market. Learn more about the collective and the other products JR is a part of over at https://makelemonade.wtf/

[00:00:00] Matt: Welcome back to the Matt report podcast, special guest today, a man that I met God, I don’t know if I had my notes in front of me. If I was a professional podcast or years ago at PressNomics spoiler alert, there was some stuff in the news about pages. And maybe we’ll talk a little bit about that today, Jr.

[00:00:17] Jr. Welcome to the program. 

[00:00:20] JR: I know, man. Thanks for having me again. When I 

[00:00:22] Matt: interviewed you last time, I think it was right on the heels of you selling your company and you’re back building another company. You are the co-founder of a man. I was just trying to think of, of a great word. An Avengers team.

[00:00:37] You certainly don’t want to be like, I dunno, the guardians of the galaxy co-founder and CEO of make lemonade recently launched something called lemon squeezy that we’ll talk about today. Yeah. How many, well, actually, let me, before we get in. Was it two years ago. I remember taking a phone call from you.

[00:00:57] You were asking me about starting a podcast. You started a podcast. Oftentimes I would broadcast that podcast onto my big screen TV. And watch you drink old fashions talking about startups. What 

[00:01:10] JR: happened? Yeah, no, that’s a good question. So, like, So me and you go way back, right? Especially in the WordPress space.

[00:01:17] Mojo was, was a good ride. Built a marketplace up, went and did the executive life at endurance for a long time, and then wanting to go on my own again. And so I got way into SAS customer attention because of what we were doing at Bluehost and things like that. Anyway, I was trying to get into that space and trying to find lightening in a bottle like I did with WordPress so quickly.

[00:01:40] Right. It’s so fast. It’s like, oh yeah, I can do this again. And starting a company again is hard. And so, we tried to get into that space and it just kind of fell flat. And so yeah, I did a podcast for it around it, and we broke down a lot of different SAS companies, onboarding, offboarding, things like that.

[00:01:56] But yeah, it was a good, it was fun though. I felt like I learned a lot, especially. Podcasting and being able to articulate things with words right. A lot better. So yeah, it was a great, it was a great production. Yeah. Thanks man. It was actually believe it or not. It was in my basement. Oh, wow. There you go.

[00:02:11] Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:02:12] Matt: Awesome. What’s the. In that world, let’s say the SAS world that you learned. I mean, you came from WordPress through WordPress, into endurance, arguably the largest corporation that touches, well, I don’t know if it’s the largest, but a large corporation that touches WordPress. Then you go in and try to do like, what many of us might listen to this week in startups, tech crunch.

[00:02:34] And we’re like, Hey SAS, world. What’s the biggest, what’s the biggest difference that you found from that world versus the WordPress world? 

[00:02:44] JR: I mean, obviously the community is way different, right? Cause because there’s so many different sounds. So you got, you got enterprise, mid market, small market SMBs got bootstrap, versus most people in the WordPress space are bootstrap.

[00:02:54] So that was like, everyone was on like some of a playing field back in the day. I would say the [00:03:00] end of where I come from, everything has been bootstrapped, so I, I don’t get me wrong. I definitely had opportunities. I still do to, to, to go raise like most of us, I guess, but I just it’s in my roots, right. To like, just build it and self-fund it and grow it.

[00:03:14] And so I would say that’s like a big thing, like when you’re getting into that space, Man, you gotta, you going up some big boys that have a lot of funding, even if they are in the SMB or mid-market or enterprise, right? Like you kind of get there’s just, the playing field is so much bigger, 

[00:03:28] Matt: so it might be, this might be a softball question.

[00:03:31] I mean, I kinda know what it is cause I know that you’re going to have a bias question, especially now that you’ve launched a lemon squeezy and a side note. It’s not just an easy digital download rev. Okay. Yeah, we’ve got a lot more that we’re going to cover about lemon squeezy in a moment, but I’ve been having a lot of folks on my podcast recently in the no-code space, I’ve been fascinated with the no code space, no comes low-code space.

[00:03:53] For me it sort of like brings that same energy back when I first discovered not even WordPress, but Drupal when I could do things with Drupal as like a non-developer with CCK and views. And we’re talking almost 20 years ago being like, wow, I can code this. Knowing this PHP thing. It’s interesting that, Well, here’s the question.

[00:04:14] What if you were to start, and I know this is, this is the softball moment. If you were to start a little bit more of a technical company today, maybe not WordPress, would you start with a WordPress framework or would you combine a couple of no-code apps that you really love to do something else? 

[00:04:29] JR: Well, I think luckily for me, like the teams that I have along the rides with me, they’re technical enough that I don’t have to, but I definitely think I would.

[00:04:39] I honestly would maybe pick something else. I built mojo on WordPress back then, and that was before WooCommerce and before, easy to download. So like it was all custom and just the limitations sometimes in, around the database and queries and stuff. It’s, it’s not built for that. So. Maybe it’s a marketing site it’s dif...

There’s no better feeling than when you launch something that just clicks with people.

I guess at the end of the day, folks that build businesses or create content are simply seeking acceptance. We want to see our idea flourish, to be adopted by the masses, and to leave an impact.

When Maciej Palmowski launched WP Owls with his wife Agnieszka, it was (and still is) a publication that served the Polish community. But it clicked. People clicked, literally on to the website and their stories, so the co-founding duo decided it was time to go global.

Combined they’ve published over 200 articles about WordPress and the community on the blog, with no signs of stopping.

Oh, and if you’re wondering how to get a job like WordPress ambassador at Buddy, you’ll learn a thing or two about CI/CD today!

[00:00:00] Maciek: some people are afraid when it comes to version control system. This is a command line tool. So it’s scary and it’s only for developers now. That’s not true. We can use get crack and it’s really easy. We can use tower and there are probably some other tools also even using a gift and their web version.
[00:00:20] This, this is also a really friendly approach
[00:00:23] This episode is brought to you by mind size visit dot com for maintenance for WordPress. Woo commerce and more. Over at mind size. Dot com Hey, you know, it’s all the rage these days. Woo commerce. You know, what’s so difficult to maintain as a freelancer and a small agency. Woo. Commerce. Outsource your maintenance to mind size [email protected]. They’re the only, service company that I know that servicing specifically for WooCommerce and supporting you as an e-commerce shop as a merchant. so you don’t have to worry about how the heck to scale woo commerce, which is also one of the hardest things.
[00:01:00] Yes. There’s a lot of great hosting companies out there. But they’re not going to help optimize the code, drill down under the hood and really make the right decisions. For your WooCommerce site. Check out mine, sys.com and check out their WooCommerce service plans so you can get to better ruin. That’s a, probably not a joke. We’ll use again. Check out mine. sys.com. Thanks for supporting the show.
[00:01:25] Hey, do you like WordPress content in media? Like this? Do you like WordPress news and getting the hot takes community journalism and op-eds from your peers and colleagues in the WordPress space. Consider supporting the WP minute and the Matt report. By buying me a coffee [email protected] slash Matt report.
[00:01:45] You can join the membership, which also has a private discord you can chat with like-minded injured individuals and get your hands in the WordPress news every single week in our discord server. Going to buy me a coffee.com/matt report that’s buy me a coffee.com/matt report There’s no better feeling than when you launch something that just clicks with people. I guess at the end of the day, folks that build businesses or create content are simply seeking acceptance. We want to see our ideas flourish, to be adopted by the masses and to leave an impact. When launched WP hours with his wife. Agneshka it was instill is a publication that served the Polish community.
[00:02:22] But it clicked. People clicked literally onto the website and their stories. So the co-founding duo decided it was time to go global. Combined, they published over 200 articles about WordPress and the community on the blog with no signs of stopping. Oh, and if you’re wondering how to get a job like WordPress ambassador.
[00:02:41] At buddy get, you’re going to learn a lot about that today, along with continuous integration and continuous development. If you’re a small agency or a freelancer, it’s time to start getting serious about how you manage code. And that’s what today’s lesson is largely about. Okay Onto today’s episode
[00:02:58] Matt: one question I didn’t throw at you. How did you become a WordPress ambassador?
[00:03:02] I see a lot of folks these days on my Twitter stream saying I would love to just work for a brand and talk about WordPress and talk about their products, any insights into how to land an awesome job like yours.
[00:03:13] Maciek: To be honest, it’s walls a bit of coincidence because. I was working at WP M Def as at their second line of support.
[00:03:22] So I was mostly a developer and at some point Rafael, the CTO of Bobby, just reach out to me and asked, Hey, would you like to become our ambassador? Because on one hand, the day learned that WordPress is really getting bigger and bigger, and it would be a great idea to I have someone promoting their, their tool in worker space.
[00:03:44] And on the other hand, we had the, we had the chance to meet earlier on because one of the organizers of a word can Poland it will be the last word component. So it was 2019 and there were one of the sponsors right then. So we had the chance to talk to meet. And I was using body for many, many years.
[00:04:03] I was always asking questions asking for some new features. So, so, so they remembered that there, that there is one month. Of the dirt and he knows WordPress, and he probably likes our tool because he worked at a few companies and every time he asked us about something, because every company I switched during the first few years, it was one of my first decision.
[00:04:28] Maybe let’s try to adopt the body because it will speed up. Rework. So in the end, I, I have a chance to work here. And this is what I would say. This is a really a dream job.
[00:04:40] Matt: Yeah. We’re both biased because we both work for companies that represent WordPress in some either direct or indirect fashion.
[00:04:46] And I have for many years now but this is a, this is a role that I think. Whether it’s an ambassador hat or a title or some other title that, that you might get. I think this is a smart move for a lot of other WordPress companies to really invest in is you need to bridge that gap as we’ll talk about in a moment, you need to be able to bridge that gap between that technology and that sort of average consumer of that technology, because it can’t just be developer speak and it can’t just be the marketing speak some at some point, these brands need to cross over in the.
[00:05:17] And shake hands and agree that somebody can speak both sides of it. Exactly. And, and this is just an amazing time in WordPress. This space was so much acquisitions and, and big money coming into the space and bigger brands adopting. I think folks like you and I are going to be much more valuable.
[00:05:32] Maybe we should ask for raises as you and I
[00:05:36] Maciek: wait w with all our taxes rising in Poland, this, this is for sure what the, what I will do at the beginning of the next year
[00:05:44] Matt: you were in here first. Okay. So let’s talk about CIC D I know the definition, I’ll let you define it. And more specifically why it’s important for.
[00:05:55] Let’s say the smaller agency, who’s starting to gro...

Now that the WordPress acquisition market has cooled a bit, it’s time to stoke the fire on all things Gatsby and JAMStack-y-ness….again.

Don’t let Full Site Editing steal all of the thunder, there’s still so much happening around headless WordPress and the ability to integrate 3rd party APIs to take the place of plugins. Look, I know it’s a polarizing thought process to some of us, but if we want WordPress to continue to grow — we need to give it some room for new use cases.

I’m joined by Alexandra Spolato to talk about her company GatsbyWPThemes and how this hotness comes with some red hot opportunity.

If you’re wondering how to make money in the WordPress theme space headed into 2022, look no further than this conversation.

Get schooled on the technology and learn how the heck she found her co-founder along with their recipe to success splitting the responsibilities.

[00:00:00] Alexandra: JAMstack is really the new hotness. Now it brings speed, which is an essential law with ACO, with the new Google measures about about some core vetoes for us that now are really essential. So we’ve we’ve Gatsby and JAMstack. Really really super fast website.

[00:00:20] You check. Pages instant, it’s static. brings all sorts of security because your database is not exposed, but have more flexibility great developer experience because now most developer. Learning react, not PHP. So people want to learn. We react. So it brings a lot of advantages.

[00:00:42] Matt: This episode of the Matt report is brought to you by foo plug-ins or specifically foo plugins, foo gallery. You can find [email protected]. There’s a new pro commerce plan, and it gives you two way integration into WooCommerce. So if you want to sell photos, you can sell photos with foo.gallery and woo commerce.

[00:01:04] It makes your job. Super easy, especially if you’re a photographer. I just had family photos taken the other day and I looked at the big conglomerate website that my photographer sent me. He said, man, it would look so much better if you. Right through WooCommerce, especially if you use something like foo gallery, check out food, art gallery, and learn more about their pro commerce plan.

[00:01:26] Check out their WooCommerce integration. They have a great way to watermark and protect your photo galleries. Check them out and thank them for sponsoring the show. It’s food, art gallery go-to food art gallery today. Start selling images with foo gallery and.

[00:01:44] Now that the WordPress acquisition market has cooled off a bit. It’s time to stoke the fire on all things Gatsby in jams, tackiness. Again. Don’t let full site editing, steal all of the thunder. There’s still so much happening around headless WordPress and the ability to integrate third party API APIs to take the place of plugins and look. 

[00:02:02] I know it’s a polarizing thought process to some of us. But if we want WordPress to continue to grow, we need to give it some room for new use cases. 

[00:02:11] I’m joined by Alexandra Salado to talk about her company Gatsby WP themes over at Gaspe WP themes. Dot com and how this hotness comes with some red hot opportunity. If you’re wondering how to make money in WordPress theme space headed into 2022. Look, no further than this conversation. Get schooled on the technology and learn how the heck she found her co-founder along with the recipe to success, splitting the responsibilities. 

[00:02:36] This is the Matt report a podcast for the resilient and business builder i’ve launched something new you might have heard called the wp minute and you can join us as a member to get into our private discord server and take part in crafting the weekly wordpress news check out buy me a coffee.com/matt report join and thanks to food plugins fu gallery for sponsoring my work here on the mat report and the wp minute okay here’s [00:03:00] alexandra’s blotto on jamstack and Gasby wordpress themes

[00:03:04] Alexandra: JAMstack is really the new hotness. Now it brings speed, which is an essential law with ACO, with the new Google measures about about some core vetoes for us that now are really essential. So we’ve we’ve Gatsby and JAMstack. Really really super fast website.

[00:03:24] You check. Pages instant, it’s static. brings all sorts of security because your database is not exposed, but have more flexibility great developer experience because now most developer. Learning react, not PHP. So people want to learn. We react. So it brings a lot of advantages.

[00:03:46] . Then in my dream, Always been to, to make a product in some development, to be honest, I really wanted them to create the way I went into development because I’m a creative person. And when I was in what brands I wanted to do themes, but the market was crowded.

[00:04:01] And then I discover, I begin working with react NSC. It was, this is my bad, this is what I want to do.

[00:04:07] We need premium themes with nice designs with options. So people. Especially developers or agency can have some things. They can, they, they can reuse pre-made designs, but not only that, because myself, I use my own themes for projects to not reinvent the wheel. I have a developer team that I can modify everything, but it contains another themes that get all the data and all the options and And I work really faster with that.

[00:04:39] Matt: Here’s what I see. I’m not a developer and the WordPress world is still heavy on the, the development talk, right?

[00:04:47] The interest of WordPress is still largely for developers. First and foremost, and I see a lot of people. Hey, this whole like learn JavaScript, deeply thing. Gutenberg, Gatsby. I feel like some people there’s a camp of people who are like, oh, that’s that’s too technical. Like I can’t even enter in WordPress anymore.

[00:05:08] Because it’s no longer just modify some HTML and CSS and know a little bit of PHP lightly. Like that’s how I got into the WordPress world. So I could kind of relate with that, but I’m not a developer. So I haven’t been practicing this skill for like the last decade. What’s your thoughts on somebody from the outside, just getting into WordPress development?

[00:05:27] Is it that much of a challenge or if they’re starting fresh, you kind of just learn this language and your.

[00:05:33] Alexandra: So is that?

[00:05:33] different type of developers and What you want to do myself? I’m self-taught then I, when I begin with WordPress, I did have not shaman and CSS. I just began taking themes and playing with them. And. Yeah, the design sense. So deep things begin to work and I begin to learn as GMs, CSS, and begin to, to my themes and, and I love, and I discovered I’m a developer and I love that.[00:06:00] 

[00:06:00] So I wanted to go deeper and I wanted more. So I did a JavaScript bootcamp and I react and I, that was that’s me. Okay. Now there is a, of a type of developers and there is WordPress implementers. Doesn’t that blob, but they do great things to Wednesday address to work different type of clients. I think. So I think there is place and things for really different type of person.

I mentor at a local business accelerator for sustainable startups that have community impact. Small — no, tiny — startups that are just getting out of the idea phase. More often than not, this is the founder’s first leap into running a business.

About 6 weeks into this 12 week program, I teach a class on web & marketing. By this point, the founder drowning in information overload. Asking them to learn WordPress is already a massive order: getting them to understand SEO + content? They aren’t ready.

Today’s guest Derek Gleason has something to say about that. As someone who worked early on with CXL and now creating content at Shopify, he’s witnessed the gamut of content + SEO projects. We recorded his conversation a while ago, which was a month or two removed from when he and I originally booked, so some of the current events might sound a little outdated.

I hope you enjoy today’s episode!

As designers or developers -- even product makers -- when WordPress is your hammer, everything looks like a nail.

WordPress is certainly in an inflection point. Where as the software is evolving, read: gutenberg + fullsite editing, the community of users grapple with what WordPress really is.

I feel like that's a statement which has lingered in the air for a few years now. When you unlock it's power of custom post types and fields with a dash of REST API magic, the CMS can become a neural network for your data. Yet with an interface that I struggle to drag a single block into the 3 column of my page layout.

Today's guest has mastered the teachings of WordPress, specifically with Elementor for his students over the last few years but that usability struggle I mentioned earlier? Yeah...that's caused him to pivot his teachings to a hosted platform you may have heard of before on the show before -- Webflow.

Welcome today's guest Dave Foye, as he unpacks the challenges of not only learning a new CMS, but the challenges of designing a curriculum for new students seeking to become proficient in it.

As designers or developers — even product makers — when WordPress is your hammer, everything looks like a nail.

WordPress is certainly in an inflection point. Where as the software is evolving, read: gutenberg + fullsite editing, the community of users grapple with what WordPress really is.

I feel like that’s a statement which has lingered in the air for a few years now. When you unlock it’s power of custom post types and fields with a dash of REST API magic, the CMS can become a neural network for your data. Yet with an interface that I struggle to drag a single block into the 3 column of my page layout.

Today’s guest has mastered the teachings of WordPress, specifically with Elementor for his students over the last few years but that usability struggle I mentioned earlier? Yeah…that’s caused him to pivot his teachings to a hosted platform you may have heard of before on the show before — Webflow.

Welcome today’s guest Dave Foye, as he unpacks the challenges of not only learning a new CMS, but the challenges of designing a curriculum for new students seeking to become proficient in it.

[00:00:00] Dave: switching tools is, is not for the faint-hearted, it’s quite an expensive process, isn’t it? In terms of well sunk cost in terms of what you’ve already.

[00:00:08] Put into the amount of time and energy that you’ve put into learning tools that you’ve previously used. I also had have still, a multiple six figure a year business teaching WordPress teaching, very specific tools, WordPress and elements are, that combination elements or page builder.

[00:00:25] Matt: This episode of the Matt report is brought to you by foo plug-ins or specifically foo plugins, foo gallery. You can find [email protected]. There’s a new pro commerce plan, and it gives you two way integration into WooCommerce. So if you want to sell photos, you can sell photos with foo.gallery and woo commerce.

[00:00:47] It makes your job. Super easy, especially if you’re a photographer. I just had family photos taken the other day and I looked at the big conglomerate website that my photographer sent me. He said, man, it would look so much better if you. Right through WooCommerce, especially if you use something like foo gallery, check out food, art gallery, and learn more about their pro commerce plan.

[00:01:09] Check out their WooCommerce integration. They have a great way to watermark and protect your photo galleries. Check them out and thank them for sponsoring the show. It’s food, art gallery go-to food art gallery today. Start selling images with foo gallery and.

[00:01:27] As designers or developers, even product makers when WordPress is your hammer, everything looks like a nail. WordPress is certainly in an inflection point right now. Whereas the software is evolving Reed Gutenberg in full site, editing the community of users grapple with what WordPress really is. I feel like that’s a statement which has lingered in the air for a few years.

[00:01:50] When you unlock its power custom post types and fields with a dash of rest API magic, the CMS can become a neural network for your data yet with an interface that I struggle to drag and drop a single block into a third column of my page layout today’s guest has mastered the teachings of WordPress specifically with Elementor for his students over the last few years.

[00:02:12] But the usability struggle that I just met. Yeah, that’s caused him to pivot his teachings to a hosted platform. You may have heard of before on the show web. Welcome today’s guest Dave Foye, as he unpacks the challenges of not only learning a new CMS, but the challenges of devising a curriculum for new students seeking to become proficient in it.

[00:02:34] You’re listening to the Mer report, a podcast for the resilient digital business builder. If you’d like to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/matt report. And buy me a digital coffee or joined the membership to jump into our private discord server with others. Chatting it up about the.

[00:02:48] And greatest in our crazy WordPress world, that’s buy me a coffee.com/maryport. And thanks to Fu plug-ins for supporting today’s show. Check out food gallery food art gallery for more. Okay. [00:03:00] Here’s my interview with Dave. 

[00:03:01] Dave: I had a lot of resistance, a lot of inner resistance to partly because, switching tools is, is not for the faint-hearted, it’s quite an expensive process, isn’t it? In terms of well sunk cost in terms of what you’ve already.

[00:03:15] Put into the amount of time and energy that you’ve put into learning tools that you’ve previously used. But I mean, I also had have still, but, I had at the time, like a multiple six figure a year business teaching WordPress teaching, very specific tools, WordPress and elements are, that combination elements or page builder.

[00:03:35] And so it, it really was kind of. It, it, it was, it was a real kind of crunch time for me for thinking that I have got to the point where I cannot use these tools anymore. I’m finding that I actually I’m finding that. I’ll talk about the details in a moment, but I can’t in all conscience recommend this particular combination of tools that I am well-known for and, very well paid for I can’t carry on.

[00:04:05] So, believe me, it was quite a, quite a risk. I think I remember one of my students say, and I’ve mentioned it’s something in, in the, in the little private Facebook group that I’ve got for one of my courses. And he just said career suicide. Nice. So,

[00:04:23] Matt: for thanks for the vote of confidence.

[00:04:25] Dave: Awesome. I mean, it, it probably had a point, you probably had a point 

[00:04:29] Matt: What was that? Oh, just real quick. What was that concern for you to say? You know what, I don’t feel like I can recommend these tools anymore. Was it more a, an ELA mentor thing? Was it more a WordPress thing? I mean, we’re in this chaotic times where it’s like, Gutenberg is still trying to get better full site editing’s coming in.

[00:04:48] You layer on the complexity of a piece of software that wants you to build a website a certain way? Are we just hitting a perfect storm here? Or was there something specific?

[00:04:57] Dave: Yeah, possibly. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I had got to the point where I started, well, I’ve, I’ve been using WordPress since 2007, something like that, so for my own personal projects and my own client projects, I’d use WordPress for, for a good long time. It was when I actually decided to teach online. I long story, I think we’ve covered this plenty of times before, but for 10 years I was actually a school teacher.

[00:05:23] I’m a, I am a qualified teacher, so I was a qualified teacher, teaching young children in the, in the UK. Like in the nineties and early two thousands. And I then got into web design and build up a great business, but it just decided that I just miss teaching so much. So for me, around 2016 ish, I decided I actually want to get back into teaching, but I want to teach the thing that I’ve been, I’ve been working with the web design tools that I’ll be working with for, for, for many years, what, what a perfect combination.

[00:05:54] So, I did a lot of research, long story, but I’d discovered elements or which...

The WordPress acquisition world was rocking this week.

If this week were a heavyweight fight between Learn Dash and Sandhills Development, Pippin would certainly be the beloved veteran. You can hear more about his side of the story in this podcast interview.

Today I got to sit down with Syed Balkhi, founder of Awesome Motive, to recap his point of view on the acquisition. It hasn’t been without some controversy, but hey, that’s WordPress for ya

Today’s a bittersweet moment in WordPress business land with the announcement of Awesome Motive acquiring Sandhills Development suite of plugins including Easy Digital Downloads, AffiliateWP, and more.

I’m honored to call Pippin my friend who has helped me “grow up” in the WordPress community. I’m happy for him, and sad that he’s retiring from the WordPress world…for now.

I had a chance to sit down with him earlier this morning to hash out all the feels around this news. I hope you enjoy the episode, please share it with others!

[00:00:00] Hey,
[00:00:01] Matt: everybody. Welcome back to a special episode of the Matt report, breaking news almost. And not this one’s not erring on the WP minute, but we broke a lot of news on the WP men. They go to the WP minute.com. If you want your weekly dose of five minute WordPress news delivered in your inbox every week, uh, this episode is sponsored by easy support videos, easy support videos, support your WordPress users right inside the WordPress admin.
[00:00:23] Using videos. Check out easy support. Dot com why am I doing this in line with the episode? Because we have a special guest today, Pippin, Williamson, Pippin. Welcome to the program. Thank you, Matt.
[00:00:35] Pippin: It’s great to be back.
[00:00:37] Matt: I woke up writing my weekly script for the WP minute and I was getting all of the acquisition news in there.
[00:00:43] I was getting all of the liquid web and learn dash and what WooCommerce was up to and I was ready to send it to my executive producer and I looked on Twitter one last time. And there you were saying that Sandhills was acquired. My awesome
[00:00:59] Pippin: motive. Sorry to screw up your, uh, your scheduling plan.
[00:01:04] Matt: I had a donut in my mouth and I’m trying to type in like, oh my God, what’s happening.
[00:01:08] I was real newsroom, uh, breaking moments here. First of all. Congratulations. Thank you. Um, at the top of this episode, what I want people to do is an, a link this in the show notes is please. For the love of all that is holy. If there’s anything you do with what I say here at the med report, read the blog post on Sandhills dev.com that Pippin wrote about the breakdown, phenomenal piece, one of your best, the best that you have written, uh, you know, uh, to, to bookend this, this, this book, this chapter of your life.
[00:01:49] Uh, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s actually an emotional thing for me. I don’t have a question straight away. It’s an emotional thing for me. I feel like I’ve been part of this journey with you. Have you felt that same vibe from others in the WordPress?
[00:02:02] Pippin: You know this entire morning, um, when we publish the, the announcement that all of the WordPress products were joining automotive and that after a transition period that I’m retiring from WordPress, um, and moving onto some other things, uh, it has been pretty much a constant stream of messages from.
[00:02:25] Friends colleagues, people that we’ve met once or twice at word camps and, and so many friends. And, um, from over the years, just, you know, saying hi, saying congrats, mentioning, you know, something about, you know, what we did together. You know, there’s so much. People that we have worked with over the years and that I’ve had the amazing opportunity to get to know.
[00:02:51] Um, so yeah, it was it’s, it’s been a pretty wild ride and a journey and hearing how many different people, um, have been impacted by the work that we’ve done over the last 10 years is an amazing way to, um, you know, maybe conclude this part of it.
[00:03:14] Matt: They’re in my, in the WP minute, uh, script that I wrote today, I said that you are your Sandhills and you specifically are either one of the most respected.
[00:03:30] Product companies in the WordPress space, if not the most respected, uh, WordPress plugin company in the space. There’s yeah. There’s such a deep connection that I think a lot of people share this. It’s what makes WordPress special, I guess, is because we all get, so the reason why we’re all so emotional about it, or at least I know I am is because we all get so connected with one another.
[00:03:51] We want to see each other when we want to see the software do well. I’m retiring from work. I was, I just ran to grab a coffee before we hit record. And I was thinking about some of the questions that I was going to ask you. This is probably a pretty blunt question to ask, but there’s the side balconies of the world.
[00:04:13] And then there’s you and me, right? How do you frame yourself to be able to say, okay, I’m retiring with WordPress from WordPress. I don’t even think the word retire is. In vocabulary. What do you think makes the entrepreneur your yourself as an entrepreneur versus SIADH maybe so different and has that played a role into making this decision?
[00:04:40] In other words, we’re world domination,
[00:04:43] Pippin: really? So it absolutely played a role. You know, one of the, one of the most challenging parts of, of this type of transition is we have this, this huge history of, of, of customers, of our team, of our products that, you know, those don’t just turn off those don’t just suddenly go away because I’m moving on to other things.
[00:05:11] What we have to try really, really hard to do. I spent an enormous amount of time on over this last summer is finding the best avenue for those to carry on for the products to carry on for the customers to continue to be supported better than we were ever able to do. And, you know, finding the right fit that ensures that that will happen.
[00:05:34] Truthfully requires someone like CYA, you know, SIADH is extremely laser-focus. And driven for his mission of helping small businesses. And he, his, you know, the first thing when, when he, and I started talking about this in depth over the summer, one of the first things that I, I asked him is, you know, what are you, what are you going to do?
[00:05:58] And what is the time, um, you know, do you plan to continue working on these and building these for years to come quick answer was, yeah, for at least this next 60 years, uh,
[00:06:12] You know, that is something that is a huge amount of reassurance for someone in my position that is, you know, knows that it’s time to move on to something else, but also, you know, agonizes over the details of how do we ensure that the customers and the team and the products are taken care of and, you know, knowing that he is committed to the long-term future, um, is extremely important to me.
[00:06:36] Um, You know, I, I recognize a couple of years ago that while I have had an amazing time and I absolutely loved the last decade, I’m not ready to keep doing it for another decade, you know, I need to do something else. Um, so
[00:06:56] Matt: yeah. I mean, it takes a lot of courage to admit that you’ve always been one, that’s been transparent with your posts and, you know, income reports and all this stuff with, with the pr...

Even with all of the WordPress consolidation happening, there’s still plenty of opportunity ahead for the industry.

There’s lots of potential users, customers, and room for investment (note: we just saw the acquisition of Yoast happen by Newfold, formally EIG. If I had to guess, somewhere between a $30-50M deal.)

If you though the plugin space is crowded or even more specifically the membership & LMS veritcal, then I have a surprise for you today. Nathalie Lussier, founder of AccessAlly a LMS plugin for WordPress joins us to talk about her venture in building her business.

From selling online courses and building community to building and selling software — this is a fantastic lesson for all of us. Her and her team are really proving that in the a crowded market, you stand apart from the crowd by knowing who your perfect customer is and building them the perfect product.

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[00:00:56] Matt: Even with all of the WordPress consolidation happening, there’s still plenty of opportunity ahead for them. There’s lots of potential users, customers, and room for investments notes. We just saw the acquisition of Yoast happened by new fold, formerly EIG. If I had to guess a deal somewhere between a 30 and $50 million acquisition, if you thought the plugin space is crowded or even more specifically, the membership and LMS vertical is crowded.
[00:01:22] Then I have a surprise for you today, Natalie Lucier founder of access, ally and LMS plugin for WordPress joins us to talk about her venture in building her. From selling online courses and building community to building and selling software. This is a fantastic lesson for all of us. Her and her team are really proving that in the crowded space, you stand apart from the crowd by knowing who your perfect customer is and building them the perfect product you’re listening to the Maryport a podcast for the resilient digital business builders.
[00:01:51] Subscribe to the newsletter maryport.com/subscribe and follow the podcast on. Spotify, wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts better yet. Please share this episode, please do, because I just read that the best way to grow a podcast is word of mouth and sharing. So please share this episode with others.
[00:02:09] We’d love more listeners around here. Okay. Let’s get into today’s episode.
[00:02:13] It almost feels like a SAS software as a service. Tell us about that, that moment when you realize I’m teaching people, I might as well build the software too.
[00:02:22] Nathalie: Yeah, absolutely. So I was in the like marketing and tech space and doing videos on like, how to build a popup and how to do things on your WordPress site and how to market your courses and all of that stuff. And I was teaching. In courses and also on YouTube and people who were, signing up to our free challenge.
[00:02:42] We had a challenge called the 30 day list building challenge to help people build an email list and they were signing up. And it was, becoming pretty popular. So we had a lot of people logging in at the same time. And at the time. I thought we were getting attacked by hackers or something.
[00:02:56] Cause we have so many logins and the way that our plugin that we were using at the time it kept pinging our CRM and every single time somebody went to any page on that site. So, we were having nightmares basically. I would wake up every morning and have to call my host to have them. Unlock us, essentially, we put my website back up and then all the people who were signing up were upset with us because, they signed up and they couldn’t get what they were asking for or what we had promised.
[00:03:21] So essentially my husband and I were like, okay, let’s just quickly whip up a plugin to replace what we have right now, just to stop this problem. And so that’s literally in one weekend we wrote the first beta beta version of access ally. And it was just to solve our own problem. Yeah. But then after that, we kind of realized like, Hey, okay, this gives us a lot of, interesting options.
[00:03:40] And we started adding on and kind of building other things that we thought would be very useful for the people going through our courses and content. And that was kind of the start of what you see today.
[00:03:51] Matt: So you ha I, I didn’t write this down in our peer review, but what was the timeline you had popup ally first and then.
[00:03:58] Then we created access ally, correct?
[00:04:00] Nathalie: Yes. So we built SSLI first just to solve this problem. And we knew that someday we might release something like this, but it just felt like too big of an undertaking to do a whole like online membership or LMS or anything like that. So we ended up building popup ally next and releasing that first because we knew we could do a free version.
[00:04:19] We could see how that went. Then we could do a paid version and see how that was. Being responded to and how we could handle support and all of that. And then we realized, okay, yes, we can actually do this. We have the chops. And so let’s go all in on SSLI and kind of build
[00:04:33] Matt: that. And I’ll, I’ll paint sort of the the, the picture at least of the way that I see it in my head is pop-up plugin a very, very broad market, big market.
[00:04:44] Chances are anyone who might be selling courses or digital content is going to be attracted to a pop-up to use on their site to capture the visitor’s attention. And, oh, by the way, we also. Have this LMS plug-in fair statement.
[00:04:58] Nathalie: Yeah, it totally started off that way. It’s a much broader, pop-ups are much broader.
[00:05:02] And then, yeah, like you said, people who are using them to build an email list and audience, they probably will want to sell something online. So, so that pretty much leads to access ally.
[00:05:12] Matt: Yeah. I want to start with something that I won’t say it’s a curve ball, but a little bit on the hot seat, but something that I totall...