Show Links

• The Congress, the Golden Fleet, and the Shipbuilding Industrial Base in 2026

Summary

In this episode of Midrats, Sal and Mark engage with Eric Labs, a senior analyst at the Congressional Budget Office (CBO), to discuss the complexities of shipbuilding costs, the role of the CBO in providing independent estimates, and the challenges faced by the U.S. Navy in maintaining and expanding its fleet. Eric shares insights on the differences between CBO and Navy cost estimates, the impact of maintenance on overall ship costs, and the importance of a skilled labor force in shipbuilding. The conversation also touches on the historical context of shipbuilding budgets, congressional appropriations, and the future of naval forces in the face of evolving defense needs.

Dr. Eric Labs is Senior Analyst for Naval Forces and Weapons at the Congressional Budget Office in Washington, D.C. He specializes in issues related to the procurement, budgeting, and sizing of the forces for the Department of the Navy. He received his doctorate in political science from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and graduated from Tufts University, summa cum laude, in 1988. He has worked for the Institute for Foreign Policy Analysis in Cambridge, Massachusetts and, from 1994 to 1995, as a Visiting Scholar at the Center for International Security Studies at the University of Maryland. Dr. Labs has been with the Congressional Budget Office since 1995. 

Chapters

00:00: Introduction to the CBO and Eric Labs
03:01: Understanding the Role of the CBO
06:01: Cost Estimation Approaches in Shipbuilding
08:54: Historical Context of CBO Estimates vs Navy Estimates
12:04: Challenges in Shipbuilding Cost Estimates
15:09: The Impact of Maintenance on Ship Costs
18:00: Congressional Budgeting and Shipbuilding Appropriations
20:48: Labor Force Challenges in Shipbuilding
23:58: Future of the U.S. Navy Fleet and Shipbuilding
27:05: Conclusion and Future Considerations

No need to force yourself to head outside in this horrible weather—unless you are in the Free State of Florida where the high is expected to hit 80F or so.

From the Friday National Defense Strategy dump to whatever comes over the transom, we’ve got you covered.

Show Links

• 2026 National Defense Strategy
• Heritage Foundation’s, Tidalwave
• Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil, Rear Adm. Worrall Reed, USN
• Fourth Arm of Defense: Sealift and Maritime Logistics in the Vietnam War, Sal Mercogliano
• USS Zumwalt Underway for First Time Since 2023 After Missile Refit, Sam LaGrone
• 2009, George Soros interviewed by then WEF ‘Young Global Leader’ and future Canadian Deputy Prime Minister, Chrystia Freeland

Summary

In this episode of Midrats, the hosts discuss the recent release of the National Defense Strategy, its implications for U.S. military policy, and the focus on China one of the primary concerns. They also address European defense responsibilities, Canada’s political landscape, and the importance of logistics in military preparedness. The conversation highlights the need for candor within military culture and the future of naval warfare technologies.

Chapters

00:00: Introduction and Overview
02:45: Airing Grievances: National Defense Strategy Release
07:09: Analysis of National Defense Strategy
12:41: Focus on China: Realistic Approaches
18:31: European Defense Responsibilities24:28: Canada’s Political Landscape and Defense Issues
30:38: Logistics and Military Preparedness
40:48: The Importance of Candor in Military Culture
53:30: Future of Naval Warfare and New Technologies

Is four months too short a turnaround for a guest on Midrats? Not if the topic at hand keeps running to the top of your read board.

From the unending diplomacy responding to the Trump Administration’s unending drive to get Greenland’s geography—and the resulting security—more firmly under American control, to the sitcom-worthy deployment of a couple of dozen “Coalition of the Freezing”—Greenland can’t-stop-won’t-stop from gathering eyeballs and attention.

So, we’re bringing back Elizabeth Buchanan for another visit. We’ll use her recent article in The Spectator as starting off point, A buyer’s guide to Greenland.

Dr. Elizabeth Buchanan is a senior fellow with the Australian Strategic Policy Institute and an expert associate of the French Ministry of Armed Forces’ Institute for Strategic Research.Most recently she was Head of Research for the Royal Australian Navy (Department of Defence). Dr Buchanan is co-founder of the polar warfare program (Project 6633) at the Modern War Institute of the West Point Military Academy. Before joining Australia’s Defence Department, Dr. Buchanan was Lecturer of Strategic Studies for the Defence and Strategic Studies Course at the Australian War College.Elizabeth holds a Ph.D. in Russian Arctic Strategy and completed her post-doctoral studies as a Maritime Fellow at the NATO Defense College in Rome. She has published widely on geopolitics, most recently with Australian Foreign Affairs, International Affairs, War on the Rocks, Foreign Policy, Foreign Affairs, The Australian, and The American Conservative.Dr. Buchanan has been a Visiting Scholar with the Brookings Institution and was an analyst with Royal Dutch Shell. Elizabeth has three published books:: Russian Energy Strategy in Asia and Red Arctic: Russian Arctic Strategy under Putin. In addition to, So you want to own Greenland, she also has an upcoming book, Competitive Cooperation at the Ends of the Earth.

Show links:

• So You Want to Own Greenland?: Lessons from the Vikings to Trump.
• Liz’s SEP 2024 visit to Midrats.
• The Unfortunate Greenland Kerfuffle.
• Denmark’s strategic concerns about China and Russia around Greenland, via Nick Solheim.
• Liz on X.

Summary

In this episode of Midrats, the hosts welcome back Dr. Elizabeth Buchanan, a senior fellow at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute and Center for the National Interest, to discuss the ongoing geopolitical significance of Greenland. The conversation delves into the historical context of U.S.-Greenland relations, particularly in light of recent tensions and discussions surrounding Greenland’s potential independence. Dr. Buchanan emphasizes the importance of understanding Greenland’s strategic position in the Arctic, especially regarding U.S. national security interests and the implications of a changing global landscape, including China’s growing influence. The dialogue also touches on the complexities of Greenland’s relationship with Denmark and the potential for a direct U.S.-Greenland partnership.

Chapters

00:00: Introduction and Overview of Greenland’s Importance
02:38: Historical Context of U.S.-Greenland Relations
05:52: The 2004 Defense Treaty and Its Implications
12:23: Greenland’s Independence Movement and Future Prospects
31:50: Best Case Scenarios for U.S.-Greenland Relations
32:17: Understanding the Scrappy Spirit of Greenland
39:12: The Geopolitical Landscape: Europe and the U.S.
54:31: Greenland’s Future: Independence or Status Quo?

Summary

In this conversation, the hosts and Palantir’s Head of Defense Mike Gallagher and Head of Shipbuilding and Naval Programs Matt Babin discuss the integration of AI and advanced manufacturing techniques in shipbuilding, particularly focusing on the role of Palantir’s ShipOS in transforming shipyard operations. They explore the generational gap in expertise within the industry, the importance of optimizing workforce efficiency, and the collaboration between NAVSEA and the Maritime Industrial Base Program. The discussion also touches on legislative support needed for modern shipbuilding and the challenges faced in submarine maintenance and production.

Showlinks

• U.S. Navy Partners with Palantir to Modernize Shipbuilding Supply Chain and Accelerate Shipbuilding
• The Maritime Industrial Base Program
• How big is the Columbia SSBN?

Takeaways

• AI and software can enhance traditional shipbuilding processes.
• ShipOS integrates various aspects of shipyard operations.
• Bridging the generational gap is crucial for shipbuilding.
• Workforce efficiency can be optimized through better planning.
• Legislative support is needed for consistent funding in shipbuilding.
• Software tools can help decision-makers understand costs better.
• The shipbuilding industry must attract younger talent.

Chapters

00:00: The Future of Shipbuilding and AI Integration
03:55: Transforming Shipyard Operations with ShipOS
10:31: Bridging Generational Gaps in Shipbuilding Expertise
12:00: Optimizing Workforce Efficiency in Shipyards
18:24: Advanced Manufacturing Techniques in Shipbuilding
20:48: Leveraging Commercial Technology for Naval Advantage
25:51: Collaboration Between NAVSEA and the Maritime Industrial Base Program
33:42: Legislative Support for Modern Shipbuilding
44:32: Addressing Challenges in Submarine Maintenance and Production

With a few days now behind us, most of the general facts are in on our raid into Caracas, Venezuela to capture Nicolás Maduro and, it appears, his wife as well.

Now that Maduro is a guest of the Southern District of New York, it is time to not just look at some of the details of the buildup and execution of this raid, but the initial lessons we can take from it, and what it means in the larger strategic environment.

Summary

In this episode of Midrats, Mark and Sal discuss the recent military operation in Venezuela, reflecting on its execution and implications for national security. They explore the potential for Venezuela’s recovery, the role of governance, and the international reactions to the operation. The conversation also touches on the economic impact of Venezuelan oil, China’s influence in the region, and the effectiveness of international organizations like the UN.

Takeaways

• The military operation in Venezuela was well-planned and executed.
• The ages of service members involved ranged from 20 to 49.
• Venezuela has the potential for economic recovery if governance improves.
• China’s influence in Latin America poses challenges for U.S. interests.
• The UN’s effectiveness in international law is questioned.
• Venezuelan oil could impact global energy prices.
• The operation sends a strong signal to adversaries.
• Governance and rule of law are crucial for Venezuela’s future.
• The U.S. military’s capabilities are unmatched globally.
• The situation in Venezuela is a test for U.S. foreign policy.

Chapters

00:00: New Year, New Beginnings
02:11: Operation in Venezuela: A Military Success
09:36: Venezuela’s Future: Opportunities and Challenges
16:25: International Reactions and Implications
23:08: The Role of Governance in Venezuela’s Recovery
28:16: The Economic Impact of Venezuelan Oil
36:38: China’s Influence and Global Fishing Rights
43:17: The UN and International Law: A Critical View
48:38: Looking Ahead: The Path for Venezuela

History isn’t just about the past; it’s a guide for today! 

On this episode, we unravel the myths surrounding Pearl Harbor and what they teach us about current global tensions with returning guest, John Keuhn.

Dr. John T. Kuehn is Professor of Military History at the Army Command and General Staff College. He served in the US Navy as a naval flight officer flying in EP-3s and ES-3s, retiring in 2004. He has authored or co-authored seven books and was awarded a Vandevort Prize from the Society for Military History in 2023 for his article “Zumwalt, Holloway, and the Soviet Navy Threat Leadership in a Time of Strategic, Social, and Cultural Change.”

His latest book from is Strategy in Crisis (Naval Institute, 2023).

Summary

In this episode, Sal, Mark and guest John Kuehn discuss the historical significance of the Pearl Harbor attack, exploring its lessons for modern military strategy and the importance of public support in warfare. They analyze the complexities of the attack, the role of logistics in sustaining naval forces, and the geopolitical implications of sea lines of communication. The conversation also touches on the current state of the U.S. Navy and the strategic calculations of China in the context of potential conflict over Taiwan.

Chapters

00:00: Introduction and Context of Pearl Harbor
04:22: Understanding the Surprise Attack
10:41: Lessons from Pearl Harbor for Modern Warfare
17:27: The Role of Public Support in War
25:12: The Importance of Selling Naval Power
31:08: Logistics and Sustaining Naval Forces
39:42: Geopolitical Implications of Sea Lines of Communication
46:00: China’s Strategic Calculations and Modern Warfare
56:40: Conclusion and Future Considerations

One of our guests on Episode 3 of Midrats was Bryan McGrath, CDR, USN (Ret.). Over the years he’s returned often, and has even graced us with the pleasure of a few guest posts here.As he’s let people know for years, he was going to retire for good at 60. True to his word, he hung it up a few weeks ago.

Earlier this year before he got too focused on his figs and vines, I asked Bryan to come on for a broad-ranging conversation.

What a great hour.

A retired Naval Officer, Bryan spent 21 years on active duty including a tour in command of USS BULKELEY (DDG 84), a guided-missile destroyer homeported in Norfolk, Virginia. In command, he received the “Admiral Elmo Zumwalt Award for Inspirational Leadership” from the Surface Navy Association and his ship earned the USS ARIZONA Memorial Trophy signifying its selection as the Fleet’s most combat-ready warship. His final duties ashore included serving as Team Lead and Primary Author of the US Navy’s 2007 Maritime Strategy “A Cooperative Strategy for 21st Century Seapower”.

Bryan was formerly the Deputy Director of the Hudson Institute Center for American Seapower. In this capacity, he helped develop the Surface Navy’s “Distributed Lethality” concept and the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments’ 2017 Navy Alternate Fleet Architecture Study.

Bryan earned a BA in History from the University of Virginia in 1987, and an MA in Political Science (Congressional Studies) from The Catholic University of America. He is a graduate of the Naval War College.

He retired again in November 2025 after 13 years in defense consulting.

Show Links

• The End of the Road, Bryan McGrath
• In Praise of the Military-Industrial Complex, Bryan McGrath

Summary

In this episode of Midrats, hosts Sal and Mark welcome back Bryan McGrath to discuss his reflections on retirement, the changes in the naval environment over the years, and the importance of relationships in naval policy. They delve into the challenges facing shipbuilding and naval strategy, the need for diverse naval capabilities, and the influence of Congress on naval development. The conversation also touches on personnel and leadership in the Navy, learning from past naval conflicts, and the impact of historical events on naval leadership. Bryan shares insights on future directions for naval operations, praises recent naval performance, and emphasizes the role of technology in naval warfare. The episode concludes with a discussion on collaboration between industry and military and Bryan’s final thoughts on future advocacy in the naval sphere.

Chapters

00:00: Introduction and Guest Background
04:46: Reflections on Retirement and Career Path
07:35: Changes in Naval Environment Over the Years
11:17: The Importance of Relationships in Naval Policy
14:47: Challenges in Shipbuilding and Naval Strategy
18:03: The Need for Diverse Naval Capabilities
21:25: Congressional Influence on Naval Development
24:40: Personnel and Leadership in the Navy
28:14: Learning from Past Naval Conflicts
32:45: The Impact of Historical Events on Naval Leadership
36:08: Future Directions for Naval Operations
39:00: Praise for Naval Performance in Recent Operations
43:23: The Role of Technology in Naval Warfare
46:57: Collaboration Between Industry and Military
50:48: Final Thoughts and Future Advocacy

Summary

In this episode of Midrats, Sal and Mark discuss various aspects of national security, including military deployments, the influence of drug cartels, and the geopolitical dynamics in South America. They delve into the implications of China’s growing presence in the Western Hemisphere and the challenges posed by information warfare. The conversation also touches on the ethical considerations surrounding military orders and reflects on the representation of military experiences in media, particularly in relation to the Vietnam War.

Show Links

• The Last 600 Meters
• Does Rep. Maggie Goodlander (D NH) really have your back?
• NORK labor to Russia to build drones
• Nauru President visits PRC
• Corbett, China, and Counterintelligence
• The Navy’s new unmanned acquisition office
• Tactical quantum
• Small Wars Journal on the Future Fight

Chapters

00:00: Welcome and Thanksgiving Reflections
02:11: Military Deployments and National Security
04:41: Venezuela and Drug Cartels
10:47: South America: Political Dynamics and Security
12:54: China’s Influence in the Western Hemisphere
20:31: Information Warfare and Disinformation
25:59: China’s Global Relationships and Military Strategy
30:03: The Role of Smaller Nations in Global Security
35:05: Technological Challenges in Modern Warfare
48:25: Legal and Ethical Considerations in Military Orders
01:00:34: Reflections on Vietnam and Military Representation

For a decade and a half, since President Obama’s Pacific Pivot speech, there has been a rising tide in the conversation about the need to fix the US Navy’s shortfall to meet the challenge of the People’s Republic of China.Faced with systemic and cascading failures in everything from surface ship design to maintenance, and distractions as frivolous as Great Green Fleets at sea and as serious as the Islamic State ashore, navalists have been waiting for serious action on the waterfront to match the rising tide of the strategic situation.

Rhetorically at least, the second Trump administration came in saying all the right things to give hope that, at last, we would turn into the wind.

Are we?

Returning to the Midrats Podcast is Chris Servello, CDR, USN (Ret.), cofounder of Provision Advisors PR Consultancy. 

Show Links

• Cavas Ships Podcast
• Provision Advisors

Summary

In this episode of Midrats, Mark, Sal, and Chris Servello discuss the current state of the U.S. Navy, focusing on leadership challenges, the importance of communication, and the need for innovation in naval strategy and technology. They explore the cultural issues within the Navy that hinder progress and the necessity for reform in acquisition processes. The conversation also touches on the role of allied navies and the importance of domestic shipbuilding capabilities in maintaining American sea power.

Takeaways

• The Navy is at a critical juncture in reclaiming its sea power.
• Leadership changes are necessary to address the Navy’s challenges.
• Communication with Congress and the public is vital for naval support.
• Cultural issues within the Navy contribute to a lack of innovation.
• The Navy must learn from allied navies and their practices.
• Acquisition processes need significant reform to be effective.
• Risk-taking and creativity are essential for naval success.
• Domestic shipbuilding capabilities must be prioritized over outsourcing.
• The current political climate affects national security discussions.
• The Navy’s future depends on effective leadership and strategic planning.

Chapters

00:00: Introduction
05:04: Reflections on Naval Strategy and Leadership
09:51: Challenges in Navy Leadership and Administration
14:47: Comparative Analysis of Military Services
19:50: The Importance of Communication and Public Engagement
24:51: Innovations in Naval Technology and Acquisition Reform
30:07: Concluding Thoughts on Naval Future and Leadership
32:18: Navigating Leadership Challenges in the Navy
34:28: The State of American Sea Power
36:42: Balancing Domestic and Foreign Shipbuilding
40:52: The Future of Naval Strategy and Technology
45:18: The Role of Congress in Naval Affairs
48:32: Innovating Beyond Traditional Naval Constructs
51:43: Cultural Barriers to Risk and Innovation
56:40: Reviving Experimentation in Naval Programs
01:00:07: Learning from Global Naval Practices

How are naval shipbuilding, commercial shipbuilding, and commercial shipping linked together to create a healthy and effective national seapower ecosystem?

What did the 1990s “Last Supper” get wrong, and what can be done to correct the error?Our guest this week is Hunter Stires, founder and CEO of The Maritime Strategy Group, returning to Midrats to discuss this and more.

We will be using as a starting point for our discussion the recent article that he co-wrote with Steve Brock at CIMSEC, Maritime Statecraft and its Future.

Summary

In this conversation with Sal and Mark, Hunter Stires discusses the interconnectedness of naval shipbuilding, commercial shipping, and the broader maritime strategy of the United States. He emphasizes the historical context of U.S. maritime power, the importance of bipartisan support for revitalizing the shipbuilding industry, and the role of allies like South Korea in enhancing U.S. capabilities. The discussion also touches on workforce challenges, the need for competition in the shipbuilding sector, and the strategic imperative of maintaining a robust maritime ecosystem.

Showlinks

• Maritime Statecraft and its Future, by Steve Brock and Hunter Stires
• The Neptune Factor: Alfred Thayer Mahan and the Concept of Sea Power, by Nicholas A. Lambert
• The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, by Alfred Thayer Mahan
• Shipbuilding, Shareholders, and National Asynchronization, by CDR Salamander
• Shareholder Interests Are at Odds with Navy Needs, by Martin Bollinger
• Episode 736: Anduril and the Promise of Autonomous Systems - with Chris Brose, by CDR Salamander & Mark Tempest

Takeaways

• The U.S. maritime ecosystem is interconnected and requires a holistic approach.
• Bipartisan support is crucial for revitalizing the shipbuilding industry.
• Historical lessons from figures like Mahan are relevant today.
• South Korea’s investment in U.S. shipbuilding symbolizes a strong partnership.
• Workforce challenges in shipbuilding can be addressed through better pay and training.
• Outsourcing shipbuilding undermines U.S. strategic interests.
• Competition in the shipbuilding sector leads to innovation and efficiency.
• The U.S. must leverage its allies for technological advancements in shipbuilding.
• A maritime revival is possible with the right political will and strategy.
• Investment in shipbuilding is essential for national security.

Chapters

00:00: Introduction to Maritime Strategy and Ecosystem
02:05: The Interconnection of Naval and Commercial Shipbuilding
07:06: Historical Context: Lessons from Mahan and the Past
14:40: Bipartisan Support for Maritime Revival
18:16: The Role of South Korea in U.S. Shipbuilding
31:00: Challenges in U.S. Shipbuilding and Workforce
41:50: Future Directions and Strategic Partnerships

Hunter Stires served as the Maritime Strategist to the 78th Secretary of the Navy, completing his term in June 2025. He has been recognized for his work as one of the principal architects of the Maritime Statecraft strategy put into action by Secretary of the Navy Carlos Del Toro to rebuild America’s comprehensive maritime power, both commercial and naval. Mr. Stires serves as a Non-Resident Fellow with the Navy League’s Center for Maritime Strategy and as the Project Director of the U.S. Naval Institute’s Maritime Counterinsurgency Project. A graduate of Columbia University, Mr. Stires previously served in the Office of the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy and in several positions on the Navy Staff, including in OPNAV N96 Surface Warfare Directorate, OPNAV N95 Expeditionary Warfare Directorate, and OPNAV N522 Navy Irregular Warfare Group. Since departing government, Mr. Stires founded and now serves as CEO of The Maritime Strategy Group.

Mr. Stires has been recognized twice with the U.S. Naval Institute’s General Prize, the premier writing award of the U.S. Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard, judged in the blind by active duty Sea Service professionals each year since its inception in 1879. He was awarded 1st Prize for “The South China Sea Needs a ‘COIN’ Toss,” published in Proceedings in May 2019; he was awarded 2nd Prize for “Win Without Fighting,” published in June 2020. His article in the Summer 2019 issue of the Naval War College Review, “‘They Were Playing Chicken:’ The U.S. Asiatic Fleet’s Gray-Zone Deterrence Campaign against Japan, 1937-40,” was selected for inclusion in the Newport Papers monograph Deterrence. Mr. Stires’s published work has been cited in a wide range of outlets, including Voice of America, Radio Free Asia, War on the Rocks, The National Interest, 19FortyFive, the Liberty Times, Rappler, and the South China Morning Post —as well as the Chinese language edition of the Global Times.