The Russians themselves must conclude that the war against Ukraine was a mistake, a disaster. That's why they have to lose otherwise there will be another war. This is how Anne Applebaum sees the invasion. She is a staff writer for The Atlantic and a Pulitzer-prize winning historian. She is also a Senior Fellow at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. Anne's latest book is The Twilight of Democracy. But in fact, she doesn't need much of an introduction and I'm glad that we were able to arrange this conversation. We also discussed what would happen if Russian President Vladimir Putin would disappear and what to do about Hungarian PM Viktor Orbán. Listen to our conversation. And if you enjoy what I do, please support me on Ko-fi! Thank you. https://ko-fi.com/amatisak