On The Gist, bone saws and Jamal Khashoggi.

When Joe Hagan began working on the story of Jann Wenner and Rolling Stone, Wenner was on board. But as Wenner slowly realized Hagan was writing the true story rather than Wenner's story, things got a bit rough. Hagan joins us to discuss Wenner, reactions since publication, and the tricks of writing about a narcissist. Hagan's book is Sticky Fingers: The Life and Times of Jann Wenner and Rolling Stone Magazine.

In the Spiel, the civility of debates.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.