Malcolm and Simone Collins break down the Vatican’s aggressive excommunication of the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) after they consecrated bishops without papal approval. They discuss why the Church is cracking down on the Latin Mass, traditional Catholics, and the fastest-growing, highest-fertility segment of the faith — while selling off convents and schools.

Topics include: the capture of the Vatican, Vatican II reforms and contradictions, the Latin Mass vs. Novus Ordo, demographic collapse in mainstream Catholicism, monetary incentives for decline, parallels with the Anglican realignment/GAFCON schism, and why institutional recapture through demographics may be nearly impossible.

Show Notes

AP News on July 2nd:

“VATICAN CITY (AP) — The Vatican responded aggressively Thursday to a traditionalist group that consecrated bishops without the pope’s consent, declaring the Society of St. Pius X had formally broken with the Catholic Church. It excommunicated its bishops and priests, and warned its faithful that they too face the harshest sanctions in the church.

By declaring a schism and extending excommunications to potentially thousands of Catholics, the Vatican’s doctrine office went above and beyond the minimum sanctions foreseen by the church’s canon law to respond to the consecrations Wednesday of four new bishops.

The society, known by its acronym SSPX, celebrates the ancient Latin Mass and opposes the modernizing reforms of the Catholic Church, which it considers to be rife with heresies and errors. While a fringe movement on the Catholic right, the SSPX has been a thorn in the Vatican’s side for five decades because it claims to be even more Catholic than the Holy See.

During a ritual-filled, five-hour Mass on Wednesday at its seminary in Econe, Switzerland, the SSPX consecrated four new bishops in direct defiance of Leo, who had urged the group to hold off for the sake of church unity. An estimated 15,500 people and their children attended, a sign that the SSPX has plenty of supporters who came from around the world knowing full well they were defying Rome.”

The Excommunication

In Catholic teaching, excommunication does not equal being condemned to hell, nor is it understood as a declaration that a person is damned (Official theology has long insisted that only God judges the soul definitively; excommunication addresses external communion, not the internal state of grace.)

* The current law treats it as a “censure,” not expulsion from the Church; an excommunicated person remains a baptized Catholic, still bound by obligations like Sunday Mass, but barred from receiving or administering sacraments and holding church offices

* Its purpose is medicinal: a severe wake‑up call meant to prompt repentance and return to full communion, not a spiritual “execution.”

* Most excommunications can be lifted by going to confession and receiving absolution from the appropriate authority (sometimes any priest, sometimes a bishop, sometimes the Holy See, depending on the offense).

* Also, what is your take on the Vatican’s excommunication SSPX members? https://www.facebook.com/reel/776390925518377

* https://www.disclose.tv/id/8klgxp4icx/

* The decree promulgated in response was by far the harshest one yet

* Leo hasn’t walked back traditiones custodes either

* The clergy in Charlotte just appealed to Rome

* The bishop took away the thriving Latin masses, restricting it to one small chapel in a corner of the diocese that can’t hold everyone

* Banned altar rails

* I think you are mistaken that high fertility means anything in the immediate term

* I used to live on a block that had a public school that was a former Catholic parish school

* The diocese sold it due to low enrollment

* Selling off properties as they are shuttered makes money

* I think a lot of religious leaders feel their job is quietly managing decline and not making too much fuss

About SSPX - Society of St. Pius X

Origins of SSPX

The Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) originated in 1970 in Switzerland as a priestly fraternity founded by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre to preserve traditional Catholic priestly formation and liturgy in the wake of Vatican II.

Ecclesial approval and early status

* The local bishop of Fribourg, François Charrière, approved SSPX in 1970 as a “pious union of priests in the diocese,” initially on an experimental basis.

* This early approval meant SSPX initially existed within the canonical structures of the Church, not as a breakaway group.

* Rome initially sent visitors who gave favorable reviews of the seminary’s formation, underscoring that early tensions were not immediate.

Rapid growth

* As of 2025, SSPX reports about 1,482 members total (bishops, priests, seminarians, brothers).

* Of these, around 733 priests (excluding bishops) belong to the Society.

* Estimates place 600,000 or so faithful attending SSPX Masses worldwide.

* Internally, SSPX news sites emphasize that the Society “has experienced constant growth” since 1970, with new locations opening every year.

* In the United States, SSPX lists 20 priories and 103 chapels, plus retreat centers, which is “quite small” compared with hundreds of non‑SSPX parishes offering the TLM.

Commentators sometimes point out that, by priestly headcount, SSPX would rank among the larger priestly religious congregations if fully recognized: one claim placed them around 5th after Jesuits, Franciscans, Benedictines, and Augustinians, based on ~700 priests. That’s meant to highlight how unusual it is for a group of that size to remain canonically irregular.

The Birth Rates

There is strong evidence that Traditional Latin Mass (TLM) Catholics as a whole have higher fertility than other Catholics, but there is no hard, SSPX‑specific dataset that cleanly isolates “SSPX parishioners” from other TLM communities.

The best quantitative data are for TLM vs. Novus Ordo Catholics, not SSPX vs. non‑SSPX:

* A widely cited U.S. survey of Latin Mass attendees reported an average of 3.6 children per woman among TLM Catholics versus 2.3 among Catholics attending the ordinary (Novus Ordo) form.

* Commentators describe this as “nearly 60% larger family size” for TLM participants relative to ordinary‑form parishioners.

* Social‑science work on religiosity and fertility generally finds that more devout, frequently attending religious adherents have higher fertility and intended fertility than nominal believers, which fits these numbers.

Points of Divergence from the Vatican

1. Episcopal consecrations without papal mandate

* SSPX consecrated bishops without the required papal approval, most notably Marcel Lefebvre’s consecrations in 1988 and the new consecrations in 2026.

* The Vatican has repeatedly declared these consecrations a “schismatic act,” stressing that choosing bishops without a papal bull crosses a definitive canonical boundary.

* The latest decree explicitly states that this act created a formal schism and triggered automatic excommunication of the bishops involved.

2. Rejection of key aspects of Vatican II

* SSPX was founded explicitly “in opposition to the reforms of the Second Vatican Council,” and continues to reject major elements of those reforms.

* They object to the Council’s promotion of the role of laypeople, ecumenism, and interreligious dialogue, seeing these as harmful concessions rather than legitimate developments.

* The group has accused the post‑conciliar Church of being “rife with heresies and errors” such as modernism and liberalism, positioning itself as the sole guardian of the “true faith.”

3. Liturgy and the Roman Rite

* SSPX insists on celebrating the pre‑Vatican II “ancient Latin Mass” and rejects the ordinary form of the Roman rite (the post‑conciliar Mass in vernacular languages) as a theological and pastoral mistake.

* They explicitly oppose the move to allow Mass in local languages, a reform the Vatican understands as legitimate and binding.

* In practice, they treat the new liturgy with deep suspicion or outright rejection, sometimes describing it as harmful to the faith.

4. The push for unity and interreligious dialogue

* Vatican II and subsequent popes have pursued structured dialogue and “thawing of relations” with Protestants, Orthodox, and non‑Christian religions; SSPX rejects this orientation.

* SSPX holds that the Catholic Church is the “one, true faith” and regards interfaith dialogue as unnecessary or positively dangerous, criticizing official policy of building inroads with other Christian communities.

* This stance conflicts with magisterial documents that frame ecumenism and interreligious dialogue as integral to contemporary Catholic mission.

5. Teaching on religious freedom

* A core doctrinal dispute is over Vatican II’s teaching on religious freedom (e.g., Dignitatis humanae), which SSPX critics often portray as incompatible with prior Catholic teaching.

* SSPX-associated arguments frequently claim the Council’s stance on religious liberty represents a rupture, not a development, and see this as evidence of near‑apostasy outside SSPX.

* The Vatican, by contrast, has consistently defended the Council’s teaching as authoritative and binding.

6. Attitude toward the post‑conciliar magisterium

* SSPX has long suggested that Church authorities since Vatican II “have been animated by a spirit that is contrary to that of the faith and have been acting against holy tradition.”

* This includes a practical distrust of recent papal teachings and doctrinal offices, leading them to set their own doctrinal interpretations against official magisterial documents.

* The Vatican’s latest decree characterizes this stance as an “intentional rupture” in communion, hence schism.

7. Canonical status and sacramental discipline

* The Vatican now explicitly declares SSPX bishops and priests to be schismatic and excommunicated.

* It has invalidated or declared illicit SSPX administration of key sacraments, especially confession and marriage, reversing prior limited accommodations.

* Faithful who “adhere formally” to SSPX—regularly attend their Masses and share their doctrinal positions—are warned they themselves are considered schismatic and excommunicated.

8. Obedience to papal authority

* SSPX’s actions imply a parallel ecclesial structure that claims to be “more Catholic than the Holy See,” undermining the Vatican’s claim to supreme authority in matters of doctrine, liturgy, and discipline.

* The recent decree emphasizes that continuing in SSPX while rejecting papal directives constitutes a deliberate break with Church unity.

The Church Had This Coming

Pointed out to us by a friend:

* The CCP basically chooses bishops and Rome OKs them: There is a secret 2018 Vatican–China agreement that gives the Chinese state a decisive role in proposing bishops, with the pope retaining theoretical veto power, and in practice Rome has often ended up accepting party‑approved candidates.

* They keep pushing back on Latin mass even though people really like it

* Pope Leo hasn’t walked back traditiones custodes

* Traditionis custodes is the 2021 decree by Pope Francis that imposed strong limits on celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. It requires bishops to get Vatican permission for certain uses of the old rite and generally discourages new communities centered on it.

* After Vatican II, they began removing alter rails, which foster reverence and clarify the sanctuary’s sacredness—plus support kneeling communion

* Historically, the rail marked off the sanctuary from the nave and provided a place for people to kneel to receive Communion while the priest moved along the rail. This reflected the older theology and practice where the sanctuary was treated as a distinct, more sacred space and Communion was almost always received kneeling at the rail

* Practically, it’s helpful for churches that have lots of children around

They also kind of benefit from their low-fertility mainstream

* They make money from selling properties that shut down

* They’re King Henry VIII-ing themselves

Other Schisms

Orthodox

There is an intra‑Orthodox rupture in communion centered on the Moscow Patriarchate and several Greek‑tradition churches, but it’s not that big of a deal in comparison and it’s more political (with the Catholic Church, it’s about doctrine; here it’s about communion—In this case, both sides still share the same theology and sacraments)

Basically, since 2018, the Russian Orthodox church has severed Eucharistic communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and certain churches under its influence (notably Greece, Alexandria, Cyprus).

* This means bishops and priests of these churches no longer concelebrate together, and Moscow has instructed its faithful not to receive communion in those Greek‑tradition churches.

This is downstream of Russia’s war with Ukraine. Constantinople granted independence to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine in 2018, which Moscow argues violates canonical tradition and its own claim to Ukraine as its territory.

The dispute raises questions such as who can grant independent, whether schismatics can be received back by a patriarch other than the one they left, and whether the Ecumenical Patriarch can act as a kind of “Eastern pope” beyond his jurisdiction

Where things stand: As of recent assessments, Moscow is out of communion with Constantinople, Alexandria, Greece, and Cyprus, but both blocs remain in communion with most other Orthodox churches.

Anglican Schism

This one’s more similar to the SSPX schism.

Anglicanism is presently experiencing what many observers openly describe as a de facto schism, driven largely by disputes over sexuality, gender, and the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury.

* Over roughly the last 20–30 years, conservative Anglican provinces (especially in the Global South) have progressively distanced themselves from the Church of England and other liberal Western provinces over issues like same‑sex blessings and women’s ordination.

* In 2025–26 this moved from tension to formal break: the Global Anglican Future Conference (GAFCON) movement and allied provinces announced that they no longer recognize the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the traditional Instruments of Communion.

* GAFCON‑aligned provinces have announced that they will not participate in meetings called by the Archbishop of Canterbury, will not contribute to Anglican Communion structures, and will amend constitutions to remove references to Canterbury.

* Estimates suggest the global Anglican family may end up split roughly in half, with each side claiming continuity with authentic Anglican identity

Issues driving the split

* The immediate flashpoints include the Church of England’s decisions to bless same‑sex couples and to appoint a woman (Sarah Mullally) as Archbishop of Canterbury, both seen by conservatives as symbols of “unbiblical and revisionist teachings.”

* Beneath these are deeper disputes about the nature of Anglican authority: whether Canterbury has any binding global role, and whether doctrinal and moral teaching can be set locally without reference to shared historic standards like the Jerusalem Declaration (2008).

* Conservative leaders frame their move as faithfulness to Scripture and to the English Reformation’s theology, while critics see it as a schism that fractures Anglicanism into two rival communions.

They’d prefer not to call it a schism: GAFCON and sympathetic writers resist the word “schism,” preferring “realignment” or “reformation” and insisting they are not founding a new church but restoring Anglicanism around its original doctrinal center.

Is this normal? Is this a promising sign?

Schisms are a recurring and fairly typical feature of religious history; what’s unusual today is more the visibility and global simultaneity than the fact that multiple splits exist at once.

What do we think about it? Keen on Malcolm’s opinion.

Episode Transcript

[00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: ask yourself why they’re doing this. Like, Latin mass is-- It’s so clear ... clearly more popular. It’s- Yeah ... clearly practiced in churches that have lower attrition rates. Yeah. It’s clearly practiced in churches that have higher birth rates. Yeah. The common people love it. Why would you remove something like that the reason you would do that is if your explicit goal was the demoralization and destruction of the institution.

[00:00:25] Simone Collins: It, it really feels that way. It super feels that way. the Vatican actually has a, a monetary incentive to lean in to this

[00:00:34] because when you have all these Catholic schools and all these convents and all these monasteries shutting down- Ooh ... because no one’s left in the area, guess what you get to do? They’re literally, like, King Henry VIII-ing their own church.

[00:00:50] They’re selling it- Yeah ... for parts. And I think that also- For their gay

[00:00:54] Malcolm Collins: sex parties.

[00:00:55] Would you like to know more?

[00:00:57] Simone Collins: Hello Malcolm, I’m excited to be speaking with you today because we have an excommunication party. And there’s schisms taking place, and of course it’s about your favorite thing in the entire world, the Catholic Church. So here is a news bulletin from AP News.

[00:01:14] Vatican City has responded aggressively Thursday to a traditionalist group that consecrated bishops without the Pope’s consent. Declaring the society of St. Pius X had formally broken with the Catholic Church, it excommunicated its bishops and priests, and warned its faithful that they too face the harshest sanctions in the church.

[00:01:37] By declaring a schism and extending excommunications to potentially thousands of Catholics, the Vatican’s doctrine office went above and beyond the minimum sanctions foreseen by the church’s canon law to respond to the consecrations Wednesday of four new bishops. The society known by its acronym SSPX celebrates the ancient Latin mass and opposes- Wait, wait,

[00:01:59] Malcolm Collins: this is SSPX that got excommunicated?

[00:02:02] Simone Collins: I know.

[00:02:03] Malcolm Collins: I know. That’s like mainstream Catholicism.

[00:02:06] Speaker 6: What I mean by that is SPSX doesn’t hold any like weird or particularly offensive theological beliefs. , , You know, they’re not particularly racist or homophobic or, , do even anything as weird as like mortification at like really high rates like you see with some Catholic groups. The reason why the Vatican has chosen to have a beef with them is because they practice the Latin Mass and because they believe that Catholicism is the one true religion.

[00:02:32] And that’s really it. That is what was - made them worthy of

[00:02:36] The ban on being able to choose their own bishops without explicit papal approval, which no other Catholic group is subject to, and thus

[00:02:44]

[00:02:44] Speaker 6: excommunication

[00:02:45] Simone Collins: I mean, we’ll talk about the differences, but like they’re one of the biggest and fastest growing and highest fertility groups. Yeah, like

[00:02:50] Malcolm Collins: I know a lot of their people. And

[00:02:51] Simone Collins: they’re like, “Hey look, it’s my foot, let’s shoot it. Pew pew pew.” So, Well,

[00:02:55] Malcolm Collins: no, these are the only Catholics having any kids, right?

[00:02:57] I know. I know.

[00:02:57] Speaker: And I want to note here, they have done this once before. The Catholic Church has, in the 80s, they excommunicated a number of high-level people in SPX. But this time is different because they were more explicit that the lay people who go to these churches, .

[00:03:13] Are also subject to this. So, . i’ll just quote here from, a newspaper article on this, , and this is in America Jesuit Reviews, so this is a Catholic newspaper. , So this is not me putting words in, like, the church’s mouth or anything like this. , Today’s Vatican decree also goes a step further, warning the priests and lay members of SSPX that, quote, “From now on,” end quote, they too will be in schism and automatically excommunicated if they, quote, “adhere,” end quote, to the schism.

[00:03:43] What adhere means is largely clarified in the 1996 explanatory note of the Pontificate Council of Legislative Text on the, quote, “Excommunication for Schism Incurred by the Members of the Movement of Bishop Marcel Lefebvre,” , which was referred to in [00:04:00] an explanatory note attached to today’s decree. I love it how something so truly evil to people who have dedicated their entire life to a religion can be done in such a bureaucratic fashion.

[00:04:10] But anyway, back to this. , The 1996 note explains that if Lefebvre deacons and priests freely carry out their ministry within the schismatic movement, , e.g., within SSPX, in disobedience of the Pope, then that is a formal adherence to schism. , The question of the laity’s adherence to schism depends on the person’s intention in whether he or she adopts SSPX attitude towards doctrine.

[00:04:33] , This is really f-d-- like, really evil stuff, man

[00:04:37] And if you’re gonna say, “Well, they ignored the Pope’s orders,” the Pope’s orders were patently ridiculous. , The, the people who had spent their entire lives in were highly dedicated to the church, and he didn’t like them because of their views on ecumenicalism and the Latin mass. Like, that’s what he was mad at them for.

[00:04:54] That’s why he said they couldn’t become bishops. , But they went ahead and became bishops anyway. That, that’s what this was over., Just completely unreasonable

[00:05:02] Malcolm Collins: Like, I, I, so brief aside here we’ll be going over some other churches, ‘cause it’s not just Catholics that have a schism problem right now. Schisms. But like these people have actively not wanted to schism. They’ve been holding their nose. Yeah. They’ve been taking the sacrifice.

[00:05:16] Simone Collins: Since 1970, Malcolm, they’ve been holding on tight.

[00:05:19] They’re really trying to play

[00:05:20] Malcolm Collins: nice. Yeah, like we don’t want this to become a schism.

[00:05:23] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:05:23] Malcolm Collins: And my like the Catholic fans of the show and stuff that we have that say this, and they’re like, “We can just wait this out.” Yeah.

[00:05:29] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:05:29] Malcolm Collins: I have said in response to that, I think you may not understand how captured the Vatican is.

[00:05:35] Yeah. And how aggressively they will attempt to resist this.

[00:05:39] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:05:39] Malcolm Collins: And what it is to excommunicate somebody who has dedicated their entire life to your religion, right? Like-

[00:05:48] Simone Collins: Well, and the, the they’re like extra into the Catholic history and lore, into actual doctrine. I mean, I know that the Vatican doesn’t see it this way, and you, you can go back to your book that you wrote on governance where you’re like, look, if some, like if like the like mousy, nerdy girl in the teen girl clique decides that she’s not gonna wear pink on Thursday, but the mean alpha girl says that everyone’s gonna wear pink on Thursday, and then mousy girl comes up wearing purple on Thursday.

[00:06:21] Look, that is a direct challenge to alpha girl’s authority, and alpha girl either can- Undermine her authority in front of the rest of the girls, thereby possibly losing queen bee status, or she can kick mousy girl, who actually cares about all the stuff they care about, out of the group because she’s a challenge to the...

[00:06:44] I mean, like this is, it’s an obvious, like, this, this was bound to happen. It’s kind of a shock that, that- Well,

[00:06:48] Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think that people what, w- w- what wasn’t fully understood- Mm ... is this idea that if we have and it’s happening more and more in, in terms of the Catholic lay body is becoming more conservative.

[00:07:03] Yeah. That, that this, the Catholic churches that hold Latin mass are getting way more parishioners than the ones that don’t, right? Like- Yeah. Mm-hmm ... that’s what the people want. Yeah. And there is this mindset that, “Well, if we can just out-breed them for long enough, eventually we’ll be able to recapture the institutions.”

[00:07:20] But the problem is is the Catholic institutions are not controlled via popular vote. They are controlled via vote of people who are allowed to vote and appointed to vote by people who currently control the administration. So, the, the, the length that they can hold on is probably about five generations longer than I think most people suspect.

[00:07:42] And when they then point and they go, “Oh look, all of the young people who are being ordained,” and stuff like that to these lower level positions that don’t have voting rights in the larger Catholic Church- Mm ... these people are all conservative. That’s a good sign. But as I- I mean, when you, when you think about, like, how [00:08:00] progressive the people in the, in the center of the church are, like, we need infinite immigration, right?

[00:08:04] Like, we need to w- we’re, you know, we’re all worshiping the same God, you know, we’re all, you know... the, the Buddhists are great and very insightful,

[00:08:12] Simone Collins: Oh, you wanna know what’s worse, actually? So, this is, this is it kind of blew my mind. The, the CCP basically chooses bishops, and Rome just okays them.

[00:08:22] And this has been happening since 2018, where there was this secret Vatican China agreement that gives the CCP this decisive role. So they’re just like, “Okay, CCP.” And they’ve also just c- continuously pushed back on SSPX, which is just trying to genuinely be true to the church. And it’s not just on

[00:08:43] Malcolm Collins: pushing back on- What did they do that deserved excommunication?

[00:08:44] Like, what was the, what was the grave sin? What was the

[00:08:47] Simone Collins: line? They, they, they consecrated new bish- bishops that were not approved by the pope

[00:08:53] Malcolm Collins: Did the bishops have to be approved by the pope?

[00:08:55] Simone Collins: Yeah Did th- Yes. At least in this case, apparently. That really... But we’ll, we’ll get into that. Now I’m gonna, I’ll, I’ll finish the press release.

[00:09:01] Yeah. We’ll keep going. Anyway, the society known as known by its acronym SSPX celebrates the ancient Latin mass and opposes the modernizing reforms of the Catholic Church, which it considers to be rife with heresies and errors, which it is. Whi- while a fringe movement on the Catholic right, the SSPX has become a thorn in the Vatican’s side for five decades because it claims to be even more Catholic than the Holy See, because it is.

[00:09:26] During a ritual field- I mean, it

[00:09:27] Malcolm Collins: definitionally is, but okay- I know ... continue.

[00:09:30] Simone Collins: During a ritual- Or was ... field five-hour mass on Wednesday at its seminary in Econe, Switzerland, and this movement was started in Switzerland, the SSPX consecrated four new bishops in direct defiance of Leo, who had urged the group to hold off for the sake of church unity.

[00:09:47] An estimated 15,500 people and their children attended, a sign that the SSPX has plenty of supporters who came from around the world knowing full well they were defying Rome. So this was one of those this, this was like ess- essentially, again, queen bee mean girl saying, “We’re all wearing pink on Thursday,” and mousy, nerdy girl who cares about what they actually care about being like, “No, I’m gonna wear purple.

[00:10:13] It’s right to wear purple. It’s...” I don’t know, whatever Being like, “All of the books say wear purple.” Like we’re celebrating world history or something. Right. Yeah. Sumptuary laws. And she’s like, “No, if you do that, you’re gonna be in trouble.” And then not only does mousy girl show up in purple, but, like, three of the other girls in the group show up in purple.

[00:10:28] Like, y- we, when you’re met that, with that direct defiance and also that many people, almost 16,000 adults and their children show up, and there are pictures of this.

[00:10:41] It’s like a sea of people. It’s, it’s hard to imagine the sheer magnitude of, of just humanity that showed up for this. Yeah ... I, I feel like-,

[00:10:51] Malcolm Collins: What’s really important to note is we are not seeing this with the Vaticanist events as much anymore.

[00:10:57] Simone Collins: No. They have lo- And it’s, like, mostly tourists in Rome who are like, “Oh, I heard there was this famous guy called the Pope.

[00:11:04] Malcolm Collins: Let’s go see him.” Right. And .

[00:11:05] if, I mean, if you wanna say, this is, this is what’s so crazy, that you can say stuff today and it’s like, it sounds insane, but, like, the evidence seems to back it up. You know, when you say there was actually a network of elite PDA files who secretly had undue influence in American business and government, and then it turned out that that’s all true and that’s just, like, a thing now.

[00:11:29] Or th- there was a trans murder cult that killed more people than the Manson Family, and this is just, like, the Zizians. It’s just a thing. It ha- b- out of the effective altruist movement nonetheless that were... or that the Vatican has been captured by a gay sex cult- ... that is now excommunicating the most devout Catholics for attempting to recapture institutions.

[00:11:54] Speaker 18: The Catholic boat’s gonna be heading on [00:12:00] out today. The Catholic boat, get some hot Christian action that’ll take you-

[00:12:11] Malcolm Collins: And y- you can see our episode. Like, a lot of people talk about this, this group, but when we went over the episode, if you haven’t seen it, it was one of the wildest episodes I’ve ever done, right? Ever thought through, was the, the gay Jew that wrote key Catholic doctrine. For real. Yeah. Which is a real thing.

[00:12:26] But the thing that got me about studying this guy’s life is just, like, the amount of gay sex he’s having that everyone he dated after he left the church was a former priest or nun. Like, it was very clear he was part of a very large network. And when we ask questions like why does the institutional Vatican...

[00:12:43] ‘Cause I think a lot of the Catholics were very confused as to... And it is true that the, the Vatican does produce, you know, a, i- in terms of the, the grapes per capita less than the American school system. But that’s not saying a lot, ‘cause the American school system is, is one in nine kids I think- Mm

[00:13:00] gets SA’d these days. But , the thing that horrified a lot of people is that all the way to the top, this was systematically covered up.

[00:13:07] Speaker 2: Why would he put anything in your butts? We don’t know. That’s what we’re trying to figure out. Hmm.

[00:13:12] Hmm. Hello there, children. Chef, why would a priest want to stick up my butt? Goodbye.

[00:13:23]

[00:13:23] Malcolm Collins: And that a lot of people were asking, like, “But wait, like, did they just not believe anything in the Bible at all? Like, were they willing to you know, ruin these individuals’ lives, these children’s lives in order to protect a practice?”

[00:13:39] Speaker 11: . Yes, I, I’m afraid if things keep going the way they are, we could lose our entire religion. Yes, we’ve gotta stop these boys from going to the public. They’ve got to know to keep their mouths shut. That’s right. Right. And so, w- wait a minute.

[00:13:51] What? Yes, but we’ve got to find out why these children are suddenly finding it necessary to report that they’re being molested. Stop the problem at its source. Yes, but how? You know, yeah. I wonder what- Whoa, whoa. Hold on a second. The problem is that children are being molested, not that they’re reporting it

[00:14:08] How do you mean? Well, I mean, obviously what we need to put a stop to is all the sexual misconduct that is allowed to take place in our churches. Not just tell the children not to tell anybody about it. I mean, right? Well, did any of the children you’ve molested come forward? No. That’s good. No, I mean, I never molested any of the children in my church.

[00:14:27] It’s okay, Father Maxi. We’re all priests here. The doors are closed. For the love of God,

[00:14:32] Malcolm Collins: You know, they could have just quietly fired them or something, not move them to other facilities where they’re still around children, right? Like, it was, it was about protecting a practice and a culture. And I think a lot of people saw that, and they were like Why? Why is it doing it? Did the church just make a judgment of error?

[00:14:52] But when you combine that with what we saw in the episode on the, the gay Jew that rewrote key Catholic doctrine, and how much gay sex was going on at the high levels of the Vatican the people writing you know, Vatican II, stuff like that. Th- there actually is probably , a large group a gay sex cult controlling the Vatican, and that has been for a while at this point.

[00:15:15] And that they’re willing to go as far as excommunication to maintain that stranglehold I think is horrifying, and and, and well, you could say that they were willing to go as long... Because I think when they saw, like, the children’s lives being murdered, and the priests being moved around, and stuff like that not being murdered, but being ruined they were like, “Well, you know, this has already happened.

[00:15:36] Those kids, whatever.” Like, they wouldn’t ruin an adult’s life. Y- you know, and that’s what an excommunication does, right? Like, they wouldn’t ruin an adult’s life over this. And or they wouldn’t do it, you know, this openly. And I think that now we’re beginning to see more openly- Mm ... what the Vatican is actually about at this point.

[00:15:53] And I would expect to see, going forwards more excommunications like this [00:16:00] come out now that the jar has sort of been opened on this.

[00:16:03] Speaker 8: the way I feel about Catholicism is very weird or interesting, ‘cause we have a lot of fans and friends and some of our closest friends who are Catholic. So obviously I do not hate Catholics. But the Vatican, , I have a burning hatred for the Vatican. , That they would do this to people who have dedicated their entire lives, who have lived good lives, it just

[00:16:28] A- and, and I can only feel that, like, psychologically there must be something that is completely incommunicable between me and these people. And Simone has had long calls with some of our good Catholic friends about this, where she’s like ... But it- A better way to ... There’s sort of like, there’s a super villain out there.

[00:16:47] Everyone agrees that this is a super villain, and the super villain’s core role is the destruction of Western civilization the, we’ll call this, like, The Red Skull or something like this. And then you’re, but you’re really good friends with some of the minions of The Red Skull, and you go to them and you’d be like, “Man, the, the things this Red Skull guy is doing is really, really crazy and evil.”

[00:17:06] And they’re like, “Oh yeah, shoot, the crazy stuff. I, I think it’s totally evil too.” And you’re like, “Well wait, wait, then why are you his minion?” And they’re like, “Oh, well, you know, we’ve gotta keep unity and everything.” And I went, “But wait, wait, wait. Why do you want unity under this? Like, why, why is disunity so bad?”

[00:17:25] Right? Like, wh- why is having multiple ways of doing things so bad if the alternative is this? Right? Like , they act like disunity is this big, scary ... , and it’s like the disunity churches are growing much faster, maintaining members at a much higher rate. Like, what do you mean? Like, why, why is unity so

[00:17:45] And they’re like, “Ah, you know.” And, and then you point out, you’re like, “The Red Skull, he just like executed like his five most devote henchmen.” And they’re like, “Oh yeah, you know, sometimes he does that, but you know, one day in a few hundred years it’ll be better.” And it’s like, what, what do you mean a few hundred years?

[00:18:01] The Red Skull chooses all the guys who choose who’s gonna be the next Red Skull. And they choose the next Red Skull. Wait, what do you mean it’s gonna be better in a few hundred years? And I can only assume that, that at a deep psychological level, or maybe even at a biological level, we are different.

[00:18:18] Because I just can’t understand how that makes sense or why disunity is somehow, when we’ve already seen that disunity seems to work and be more vitalistic, more thriving,

[00:18:32] Speaker 10: As a reminder, for every eight people who deconvert from Catholicism, one person converts in, and for every two people who deconvert from Protestantism, one person converts in

[00:18:42] Speaker 8: seems to be scarier than serving under an obviously antagonistic and evil organization

[00:18:50] Speaker 9: An organization that I think if we are being honest with ourselves, if we’re ranking threats to Western civilization, , probably, I’m probably number one, honestly. , The UN is more antagonistic to Western civilization, but it’s less competent. , I guess the parts of Islamism as a whole would be a much bigger threat, but they’re less unified.

[00:19:13] , So yeah.

[00:19:15] And note the bigger issue than the excommunication, ‘cause this had happened before in the ‘80s, is the making the sort of entire SPSX o- organization, , n- null and void from the perspective of, , being right with God, , for anyone who sees themselves as Catholic. Like they’re essentially forcing a schism

[00:19:34] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, I think... It certainly as more people challenge and question what’s going on, and as what’s going on becomes more extreme. Yeah, I, I could see momentum building.

[00:19:43] And I just, I just wanted to say, though, the excommunication is not as bad as I thought it was as an outsider, I thought. ‘Cause I thought, I thought that being excommunicated was like, oh, this is what got people burned at the stake in the past. This is what got people really screwed. Like, y- you’re, you burn in hell forever.

[00:19:59] But, but [00:20:00] actually excommunication in Catholic teaching doesn’t mean you’re being condemned to hell. It’s not understood as kind like a declaration of damnation. Official theology has it that basically only God can decide, so it’s not for the church to, you know, declare. However, it means that you are not allowed to be to receive any of the sacraments.

[00:20:24] You can’t be married in the church. So y- y- you’re kind of, like, slapped with this wake-up call,

[00:20:30] Speaker 4: This is hugely underselling it, Simone’s interpretation here, because if you are a priest or a bishop who is excommunicated, that means anybody operating under you, , what they do within their, their churches, , doesn’t count. Their marriages don’t count. Their sacraments don’t count. And that matters for the souls of the people who are attending that church

[00:20:50] Malcolm Collins: Oh, oh, this is fascinating. Oh my God. Okay. This happened twice

[00:20:56] Simone Collins: I don’t know about the 1988 one

[00:20:59] Malcolm Collins: Okay, yeah. As of 2026, the SSPX has repeated a very similar act, consecrating four new bishops without papal mandate in Econe.

[00:21:06] Simone Collins: Oh. The

[00:21:06] Malcolm Collins: Vatican under

[00:21:07] Simone Collins: Pope Leo- Yes, yes, yes, yes. Okay, yeah ...

[00:21:08] Malcolm Collins: has confirmed- I did read about that

[00:21:10] that the involved bishops incurred automatic excommunication for schism. Wo- wow, repeating the 1988 events. So this started in the 1988 events.

[00:21:19] Simone Collins: So they’re just doing it again. They’re like, “Look, we’re-

[00:21:21] Malcolm Collins: Negotiations between- ... we’re just going.” Well, hold on. Let’s go into the 1988 events, because this is when it first was normalized.

[00:21:27] Negotiations between the SSPX and the Vatican, led by Cardinal Jose Ratzenberger, I need to talk about took place in 1988. A protocol of agreement was signed in May 5th, but Lefebvre withdrew his signature days later. He demanded stronger guarantees that tradition would be protected. So this is over him wanting tradition, and the va- that was where they crossed the line, was wanting tradition.

[00:21:48] Despite repeated warnings from the Vatican, including a personal letter from Pope John Paul II on June 9th, and a former canonical warning on June 17th that preceded would incur automatic excommunication, Lefebvre went, went ahead. On June 30th, 1988 he consecrated new bishops, and that was the line that led to them all being excommunicated.

[00:22:09] But wait, can you normally-

[00:22:24] All right, let, I’m seeing if th- this was specially applied to their group because th- this does change things. This means that this is a escalation and continuation. A- and yeah, okay. Yeah, no Instead of

[00:22:35] Simone Collins: some new break

[00:22:41] Malcolm Collins: This only applies to SPX. Nobody else needs this to, to consecrate new bishops

[00:22:46] Simone Collins: Oh my gosh, so they’re like in the doghouse constantly.

[00:22:49] Malcolm Collins: No, no, but this really matters because the consecration of bishops, the bishops are the ones who vote on what other Catholics believe,- Mm ... on the... That’s

[00:22:58] Simone Collins: why- So they’re trying to make them se- they’re the second-class citizen of the Catholic Church

[00:23:04] Malcolm Collins: It’s not that they’re second-class citizens.

[00:23:06] It’s the, the fight is over, and this is what I think a lot of the traditionalist Catholics are missing. Mm. They think the fight is over the lay person, when they don’t realize the fight is over the bureaucracy. And if the bureaucracy- Mm ... can just remove anybody who comes into it but has different opinions from being able to vote, then and what’s, what’s fascinating to me is I doubt they would be doing these sorts of excommunications if these people were Africans or whatever. It’s specifically conservatism in Western cultures that they will not allow a slide back on.

[00:23:39] Simone Collins: Oh, that’s interesting, yeah, ‘cause it did, it did come out of Switzerland in the 1970s, and it was just specifically about Vatican II.

[00:23:46] Like, we’re not cool with the liturgy post-Vatican II, and we want there to be a much more pious, like, true to [00:24:00] real Catholicism practice that we can all turn to.

[00:24:05] Speaker 5: And you’re like, “No, no, no, the Vatican isn’t captured by groups that are explicitly anti-white.” , Keep in mind that when the Trump administration tried to take white refugees who were being murdered, like we have very well documented in South Africa, the organizations that ended up shutting down that year, , were the Episcopal Organization for Helping Refugees and the Catholic Organization for Helping Refugees that had both been operating for, like, half a century.

[00:24:31] , The Episcopal organization explicitly said, “We’re doing this because we don’t wanna help these people.” , And the Catholic organization did not say that. They just happened around that time period. It plausibly could have been something else. But I think, you know, it’s up to people to be r- you know, honest with themselves about what they’re seeing in these organizations.

[00:24:49] Are they institutionally racist organizations? , I mean, at, at, w-would they apply the same rules to a Black congregation , or Black priests? Because I think there are many Black priests , in parts of the way Catholicism is practiced in Africa that are significantly more conservative. So why aren’t they having the rules applied to them in the same way?

[00:25:06] , And the, the answer is obviously, , different standards for different ethnic groups because they have different outcomes they want from different ethnic groups

[00:25:13] Simone Collins: Though it, it should... What’s weird about this, and like, where I, I see this ongoing tension ‘cause I, I see what you’re saying. It’s, it’s basically they’re like, “You can exist.

[00:25:21] You just can’t have a voice, ‘cause we don’t want you to-” You can’t have

[00:25:24] Malcolm Collins: institutional power because- Yeah ... we don’t want to lose the institutional power that we have taken control of.

[00:25:29] Simone Collins: Because when the founder of SSPX created this new offshoot, the local bil- bishop who was also in Switzerland, approved of it.

[00:25:40] They, they said it was a pious union of priests in the diocese, and they just kind of saw it as like, well, this experimental branch, which is something that we’ve often lauded about Catholicism, that it’s this religion that is able to have sort of these, like, more extreme offshoots. It can innovate, and they’re kind of like the, the skunkworks of the religion, and if they’re good, they get reintegrated.

[00:26:01] If they’re not, they don’t get reintegrated. And what we have here is an issue of the discernment on what can be reintegrated being disconnected with the actual best interests and true nature of the church and its purpose. But this, yeah, that’s really interesting. ‘Cause they, they, they initially sent visitors to, like Rome did, when, when this new group formed.

[00:26:27] They, like, sent people over to check it out, and they had favorable reviews of it, and they thought that, you know, it was, it was, it’s solid. So this, this, this didn’t start out as an attack- antagonistic relationship. And SSPX has grown a ton. So as of 2025, they have around 1,482 members in total, but by members, I mean- Bishops, priests, seminarians, and brothers.

[00:26:55] So there are more like 600,000 or so faithful and that’s a lot of people. Plus when you, when you consider especially this is a hard religion, there aren’t any actual estimates of their unique birth rates. There’s only estimates of traditional Latin mass Catholics, and that can be a larger group than just SSPX.

[00:27:18] But this widely cited US survey of Latin mass attendees, and of course Latin mass is like the SSPX thing found that,

[00:27:27] Malcolm Collins: So let’s, let’s if you... I wanna go over like what, what’s the beliefs that they had that got them to sex communication.

[00:27:32] Simone Collins: But hold on. Latin mass attendees have an average of 3.6 children per woman.

[00:27:36] Malcolm Collins: Oh, Go-

[00:27:37] Simone Collins: Whereas normal Catholics have around 2.3, so that’s significant, like that’s a very meaningful difference.

[00:27:44] Malcolm Collins: That’s, those numbers aren’t accurate, by the way.

[00:27:47] Simone Collins: How so?

[00:27:48] Malcolm Collins: Catholics are way below replacement rate. Like, they’ve been below replacement rate since the-

[00:27:53] Simone Collins: Oh, okay. So you’re saying that- ... the early ‘

[00:27:55] Malcolm Collins: 80s.

[00:27:56] Wherever you got those

[00:27:56] Simone Collins: numbers from- That can’t be true because normal Catholics are-

[00:27:59] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ... not [00:28:00] at 2.3. Catholic average fertility rate is like 1.1, Simone. I, I do not know- Hmm ... where you’re getting these numbers from.

[00:28:05] Simone Collins: Well, if I look at the year of the survey, maybe it’s just that it’s one of the older ones.

[00:28:08] I didn’t check the year when I looked at the page.

[00:28:12] Malcolm Collins: That probably worth doing because Catholics have had, in the United States, the Catholic average fertility rate, the non-Hispanic Catholic average-

[00:28:18] Simone Collins: 2018. That’s interesting ...

[00:28:21] Malcolm Collins: the non-Hispanic Catholic fertility rate in the United States was 1.6 and this was back in tw- the 1980s.

[00:28:29] 1986 is when it was taken. Well,

[00:28:31] Simone Collins: it might be- Yeah, all the data was collected between March 2018 and November 2018. Was it in the

[00:28:34] Malcolm Collins: United States?

[00:28:35] Simone Collins: I think so.

[00:28:36] Malcolm Collins: Okay, so I’ll tell you where you got the, the funky numbers from. Okay. It’s including his, the, the only high fertility Catholic group on Earth really in, in mass when you’re not talking about the, the, the Latin mass ones, are Hispanic American Catholics.

[00:28:51] Hispanic Catholics are low fertility in all of their native countries, but they’re very high fertility in the United States

[00:28:57] so you’re likely seeing the... But, like, let’s talk

[00:28:59] Simone Collins: about- It was in Arizona, California, Colorado, New Hampshire, and Texas. So yeah, that’s gonna have, especially in Arizona And California and Texas, a decent number of immigrants.

[00:29:11] Okay, so fair, fine. But still, I mean, a meaningful difference in, in practice of, of fertility rates. And that a lot of commentators see that as, like, a 60% larger family size. And in general, like, other social science work on religiosity, which we’ve reported on elsewhere, shows that people who as we put it, practice more hard religion are more likely to have higher fertility rates.

[00:29:39] It doesn’t matter

[00:29:40] Malcolm Collins: if you’re like- Yeah, the, the point I’m making is that that’s just not,

[00:29:44] Simone Collins: Are you, are you disputing that SSPX members have higher fertility?

[00:29:51] Malcolm Collins: What, no, what I’m, what I’m disputing is that it’s not relevant to your ability to control the Vatican. That’s-

[00:29:59] Simone Collins: Right, right, right, right. What you find most interesting in this is this systematic bureaucratic resistance to reform when reform means getting rid of changes made that we don’t think are true and that many Catholics don’t think are true to the Catholic faith, correct?

[00:30:17] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah. They, they, they, so who, who does have a vote within the Catholic Church? So we talk about, like, recapturing,

[00:30:23] Simone Collins: Who has the most influence, you mean?

[00:30:24] Malcolm Collins: Cardinals are created exclusively by the pope. And even the existing cardinals do not vote in new par- cardinals. That’s only the pope’s decision. Mm-hmm. Oh my God, that’s an incredibly hard system to ever crack.

[00:30:35] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:30:36] Malcolm Collins: If only the pope can appoint cardinals and only cardinals can vote on the pope, and both of those b- groups are entirely captured the bishops would have had a vote in big things like Vatican II. Like, presumably all the bishops vote on that. So they’re basically making it so that, like, not even a drip of doubt can come in.

[00:30:54] Wow. Not even a drip of opposition can enter.

[00:30:57] Simone Collins: Yeah, so it’s- Wow, so there’s basically no room for reform- There is no room for reform ... the way that governance is structured.

[00:31:02] Malcolm Collins: You’d have

[00:31:03] Simone Collins: to- It’s just not possible ...

[00:31:03] Malcolm Collins: yeah, you’d have to take out the existing leadership system almost ent- entirely. Like, like, it would require, like, revolution to get reform.

[00:31:11] Th- that is why- Yikes ... I had, I had no idea it was that bad. And if you wanna go over what they held these members to get them excommunicated for putting bishops with these beliefs into a position to potentially vote in future councils Vatican II itself. The council contained serious errors and ambiguities, especially in religious liberty.

[00:31:31] This is what SSPX thought, which it just, like, again, see our other episode on this, the, the gay Jew who wrote core Catholic doctrine, and deconverted by the way after that. The, the for people who are wondering, he wrote the entirety of the first draft of one of the key documents of Vatican II on ecumenicalism which is these people’s core complaint.

[00:31:49] The guy, the guy who wrote the first draft of the document is no longer Catholic, right? Like, I can understand why they might be like, “Well, should we really? Like, this seems to go against some of the older beliefs in Catholicism.” And, and apparently [00:32:00] this is the number one thing that they’re, they’re mad about, okay?

[00:32:02] Is- That

[00:32:03] Simone Collins: who’s mad about? That SSPX is mad about- No, that

[00:32:05] Malcolm Collins: the- ... or the

[00:32:05] Simone Collins: Vatican? ...

[00:32:05] Malcolm Collins: that the Vatican is mad at SSPX about- Uh-huh ... is SSPX views on ecumenicalism. Like trying to integrate the- That they’re

[00:32:13] Simone Collins: trying to consecrate, consecrate bishops?

[00:32:16] Malcolm Collins: W- well, no. This is the view that we’re threatening to the Vatican, okay?

[00:32:21] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:32:21] Malcolm Collins: That SSPX, this is the view that says, like, “Hey maybe we shouldn’t have endless immigrants of other religions,” right? Like, maybe we

[00:32:28] Simone Collins: sh- No, no, yeah, that, that’s, that’s the other, yeah. Like, well, I mean, a m- that is one of the many things, but yeah, they’re, they’re... Well, more broadly it’s not like, oh... So Vatican II as w- you pointed out in the, the gay Catholic whatever one Jew episode that there’s this big thing about, like, oh, let’s have interfaith dialogue, and maybe everyone’s kind of right.

[00:32:50] Whi- which SSPX is like, “No, Catholicism is the one true faith. We’re not gonna be like, ‘Oh, I don’t know, I guess everyone’s kinda cool. It’s fine. Let’s all talk together and be friends.’” Like, no, Catholicism is right.

[00:33:01] Malcolm Collins: Like, you can talk and be friends and still be like, “But we’re the right ones.”

[00:33:05] Simone Collins: Yeah, like, that’s the whole point, is it?

[00:33:06] And it- This is why we love talking with our Catholic friends and friends of other religion, especially our Catholic friends though, and I guess our Catholic friends lean more in the SSPX direction ‘cause they’re like, “I mean, that’s a great, you know, we understand your point. You’re wrong.” And I love that.

[00:33:20] Like, I wanna have that debate, and the, the leaning of, of the, of like post-Patic- Vatican II Catholic Church is very different. But then I mean, you know, it’s... They’re also super against this, this idea of in general, kind of taking away the sacredness of the Catholic Church. Well- Like, this manifests in many different ways, right?

[00:33:40] Th- I mean, we talk most about the Latin mass and their, their obsessive obsession with the Latin mass, but there’s also subtle things. Mm. Like, it’s not, there’s not a formal rule about this- Mm ... but there are what are they called? Rails. There are these, these rails that sort of separate the, the key part of the church.

[00:34:02] What is it called? The sanctuary from the nave, where like the, the- Yeah ... the parishioners sit. And post-Vatican II, it kind of just became the thing to remove the rails, which both you would sort of kneel at for communion, but also provided this feeling of physical separation from a more sacred space. And it separated the priests from the, from their flock, and sort of showed them to be like, “Hey, this is th- the stuff happening here is sacred and special.”

[00:34:32] And when you take that away, it makes all of it feel like less authoritative, less exciting and magical and meaningful. And also, I, I think this is understated, but f- just from a practical family perspective and I, I really felt this when I took Octavian into a Catholic church, when we took him just to D- DC like a couple months back.

[00:34:56] When you have a lot of little kids running around a Catholic church, which you should if you have a successful parish They might just run straight up. Like, the fence is useful, and especially, like, to kids who can’t really understand complex- Actually,

[00:35:11] Malcolm Collins: that’s such a good point. The fence is a sign of a church with kids.

[00:35:15] Simone Collins: It is a sign of a church ‘cause the what is, what is the first thing Octavian did when we got into the church? He, like, walks up. He like, “I’m gonna sit on, like, the big spot. Like, it’s, it’s a little bit raised here. I wanna go to the coolest part, and I’m gonna climb up on it.” And I’m like, “Oh my God, no, stop.”

[00:35:28] I, I think I even have video of it that I can send to you. I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no, no, no.” Thank God no one was in there. But, like, there’s a reason there are guardrails, and it’s not just like, oh, it, you know... But, but like from a practical standpoint, it communicates to children that this is sacred, that we don’t touch that.

[00:35:45] And it’s the same in, like, an adult’s house, right? Like, this is my white living room for entertaining. We have a little kid fence here. You don’t walk in it. Like, kids understand the rails, okay? And that’s why we had those those stained glass windows. Like, little, you know, [00:36:00] they, they can’t understand what’s happening, even if, if the, if the mass is in English.

[00:36:03] Malcolm Collins: That, that’s true. Yeah. They’re like comic books of what happened- Yeah ... in the Bible.

[00:36:07] Simone Collins: Yeah. And, like, when you start to take these things away, or you, like, make the stained glass all, like, abstract and ugly-

[00:36:12] Malcolm Collins: Well, no, they take them away after... They don’t even remember the utility of something like that by the time there’s no kids left.

[00:36:19] Yeah. They don’t remember why you would have something like

[00:36:21] Simone Collins: that. Right. Yeah, because, like, what kid in the church is running up, you know, into the, the sanctuary? ‘Cause there aren’t any kids to run into the sanctuary. It, it, it makes no sense.

[00:36:28] Malcolm Collins: But if you, if you, if you, if you go over... I wanna go over all the individual things that really piss the church off.

[00:36:32] So one was they, they wanted more ecumenicalism. Yeah. Or sorry, less ecumenicalism. They’re like- Yeah,

[00:36:37] Simone Collins: yeah, yeah, yeah ... “

[00:36:37] Malcolm Collins: Look, you can be nice to people of other religions while saying they’re wrong,” right? And the Vatican- Mm-hmm ... is like, “No, you can’t,” basically. Yeah.

[00:36:43] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:36:43] Malcolm Collins: Yeah,

[00:36:43] Simone Collins: yeah, yeah.

[00:36:44] Malcolm Collins: They, they, The council teaching-

[00:36:46] Simone Collins: They also teach on religious freedom, like that there’s

[00:36:48] Malcolm Collins: this core doctrinal- Yeah, that people have a right to religious freedom.

[00:36:50] Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and, and or that there are even false religions contradicts earlier popes who taught error has no rights. Yeah. And the Vatican absolutely says no, nothing in Vatican II contradicts previous stuff. Yeah. Whereas SPX says no, there’s... And, and most Protestants say that Vatican II does seem to clearly contradict previous stuff.

[00:37:07] Yeah. I, I don’t wanna, like, go over all the, the points in it because of course you have the official Vatican answer, and a lot of Vaticanists will just repeat the official Vatican answer without applying critical thought to is that actually a v- a good answer? Like, did that answer pass for what I need to believe is existentially true about reality?

[00:37:25] The new, the new mass versus the Latin mass was actually genuinely one of the reasons why the Vatican excommunicated them. Yeah. Apparently. Yeah. They were just, like, really mad that we might have people who would oppose the new mass, which it-

[00:37:39] Simone Collins: Well, and they even, like... So there... It wasn’t... Like, they kept reiterating that, like, we, we don’t do Latin mass.

[00:37:45] Like, they kept trying to demote, and demote, and demote Latin mass. So there was even this thing there’s this 2021 decree- No,

[00:37:52] Malcolm Collins: if you’re a Vati- Hold on. Before you go further with this, if you’re a Catholic, ask yourself why they’re doing this. Like, the L- Latin mass is- They’re

[00:38:00] Simone Collins: trying to take the sacredness out of Catholicism.

[00:38:02] It’s,

[00:38:02] Malcolm Collins: it’s- It’s so clear ... clearly more popular. It’s- Yeah ... clearly practiced in churches that have lower attrition rates. Yeah. It’s clearly practiced in churches that have higher birth rates. Yeah. The common people love it. Why would you remove something like that if-

[00:38:16] Simone Collins: Well, yeah, and Latin mass is harder.

[00:38:18] Like, it, it’s like I, I guess it’s like a, a, a, oh, God, what’s it... de- denying an A to the student who, like, actually does all the homework and takes all the tests and gets perfect scores

[00:38:34] Malcolm Collins: That’s a, that’s a great way to put it if you’re looking at it in, like, America. It’s like you are intentionally punishing your highest fidelity highest performing, highest vitalist, highest community-

[00:38:46] Simone Collins: Yeah

[00:38:46] Malcolm Collins: part of your religion. Why would you do that? Like, I want you to think. Yeah.

[00:38:50] Simone Collins: They’re like, “No, no, no, no. We’re pass-fail. We, no, you’re out. You can’t-” No,

[00:38:54] Malcolm Collins: no, the reason you would do that is if your explicit goal was the demoralization and destruction of the institution.

[00:39:03] Simone Collins: It, it really feels that way. It super feels that way.

[00:39:07] There’s so, anyway, the, there’s, there was this thing in ‘21, 2021 called the Tradici- Traditionis Custodis that was this decree by Pope Francis that imposed strong limits on celebrating the traditional Latin mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. It requires that bishops get Vatican permission for certain uses of the old rite, and it generally discouraged new communities from using it.

[00:39:34] And in practice what, what some of our friends who are Catholics have seen is that it’s just, like, shoved to, like, one corner of a church and, like, basically hidden as much as possible. So they not only, like, as much as they were like, “Oh, sure,” like, “We’re fine with you. You can stay.” They’re, they get mad every time they consecrate bishops, every time, you know, they, they get really excited about Latin mass.

[00:39:56] They’re like, “Oh, but, like, mm, why don’t you just do it, like, behind... [00:40:00] Why don’t you do it by the trash dumpster?” You know, like, “Go do it there.” It, it’s, they’re just, they’re being so mean.

[00:40:07] Malcolm Collins: Well, because I, I, like, I, like, this isn’t even conspiratorial, and I’m, I’m asking AI to try to figure this out.

[00:40:14] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:40:14] Malcolm Collins: Why are they against the more popular form of the mass that seems to do better?

[00:40:23] Simone Collins: Yeah, that’s a good question. So

[00:40:27] Malcolm Collins: Okay, so the main reason comes from Vatican II.

[00:40:30] Simone Collins: Well, yeah. And when that, that’s the core thing. I mean, like again, the core thing of SSPX is Vatican II runs counter to the Catholic Church. Man, what hap- like who’s idea

[00:40:42] Malcolm Collins: was Vatican II? Oh, because they believe that the Latin Mass, well, this is their argument. They say it detracts from the unity of the church specifically the unique expression of lex orandi or the law of worship of the Roman Rite. So basically because some Catholics are practicing in a way that’s different from other Catholics even if it’s more popular and better in any way, they, they’re, they’re antagonistic to it

[00:41:07] That’s wild

[00:41:11] Simone Collins: It’s, a- again, it’s, it’s, it’s queen bee, mean girl assertion of authority. It’s that classic governance thing. I mean, I, I, I see the point that you’re making, but it’s also the whole, like, you’re questioning my authority and if I don’t crack down, my authority is going to become increasingly undermined.

[00:41:28] And when I say, like, “Don’t do this,” and they keep doing it, then what, what does my rule mean anymore? Yeah. But we can jump to- No,

[00:41:35] Malcolm Collins: but I mean, the... It’s, it’s really important to note that the, the the point of no return for all of this is always putting somebody into a position where they might be able to vote on what is true in Catholicism.

[00:41:49] Simone Collins: Right. Yeah. Well, but clearly the Vatican’s not gonna, not gonna let anyone get close to making differences there, so what does it matter, basically? I think honestly, the more that SSPX moves away from this, the better. In fact, I kind of wish they were doing what the Anglican Church has done. So I’ll let you know what’s going on there.

[00:42:15] ‘Cause you... Are you aware of what’s going on with the Anglican schism?

[00:42:18] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they elected a lady bishop.

[00:42:21] Simone Collins: Well, no. Okay, yeah, so- A lady pope. Basically a l- a, a bunch of other groups primarily... What is it? There’s... It’s GAFCON, but what’s, what does the acronym stand for? The Global Anglican Future Conference has basically been like, “All right.

[00:42:37] We’re, we’re not with the Archbishop of Canterbury anymore. Like, we’re not gonna share communion. I’m not with stupid anymore. Like, we’re not doing this.” And so as much as they’re trying to not describe this as a schism, they prefer to call it a realign- a realignment or a reformation. And they’re trying to say, “We’re not founding a new church.

[00:43:01] We’re just restoring Anglicanism around its original doctrinal center.” They’re

[00:43:08] Malcolm Collins: functionally- The Bible. That’s a pretty naughty thing to... Oh. Well, I mean, if you are electing an, a lady pope, which is what the Anglicans did. So w- the reason I call her lady pope, important to understand who the Anglicans are when England became Protestant the Crown really still liked the idea of a state religion and Catholicism more broadly.

[00:43:26] He was like a fervent, Henry VIII was a fervent Catholic, like so much that the pope, like, gave him a special award or something as like a defender of the c- the faith. Until the pope, out of, like, you know, sh- sheer douchiness really it was, it was, “Oh, well, that’s my niece or something who you’d have to divorce to have a kid,” and Henry had to have a kid.

[00:43:46] If he didn’t have a male son- Yeah ... it could have led to a civil war- Yeah ... which would have led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and countless suffering and children dying. Like, what he was doing-

[00:43:58] Simone Collins: Like, Queen Catherine of Aragorn was [00:44:00] what, like his niece or something? Or like, there was a fam- Family relation.

[00:44:03] It was just never

[00:44:03] Malcolm Collins: gonna happen It was a family relation, that’s why he wouldn’t let him. Yeah. Which again, like this shows the problem, corruption in the church-

[00:44:09] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:44:09] Malcolm Collins: that led to Protestantism because without the English... But anyway, so the English become Protestant. Mm-hmm. And they’re, they, but they try to keep their version

[00:44:17] Simone Collins: of Protestantism- Yeah, like they need their Protestant pope, and that’s the Archbishop

[00:44:21] Malcolm Collins: of Canterbury

[00:44:21] as, as, as a, as, as Catholic-y as, as possible.

[00:44:24] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:44:25] Malcolm Collins: And that group is the group called the Anglicans. Mm-hmm. And this group in early America was heavily, like early Americans hated the Anglicans. We, we, early Americans, thought they were basically just another shade of Catholicism. Yeah. And, and were just as suspicious as Catholics.

[00:44:39] But anyway- Yeah ... continue.

[00:44:41] Simone Collins: Yeah. So anyway this is something that’s been a slow burn over the past 20 to 30 years. Conservative Anglican provinces, especially in the Global South, so like outside the UK- Yeah ... have just continued to like slowly step away from the Church of England and other liberal Western provinces that have Anglican churches over issues like same-sex blessings and women’s ordination, because they just started doing that out of nowhere.

[00:45:08] And this culminated in 2025 and 2026 into this formal break where at the Global Anglican Future Conference, also known as GAFCON allied provinces decided that they would no longer officially represent or recognize the authority of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the traditional instruments of the communion.

[00:45:33] So they are not gonna participate in meetings called by the Archbishop of Canterbury. They’re not going to the archbishop’s birthday party anymore. They’re not gonna contribute to the Anglican communion structures. They will amend constitutions to remove references to Canterbury. Like, we are just erasing her from our diary.

[00:45:52] We’re deleting her from our contact book. She’s out. And this has roughly split the Anglican community in half with each side claiming that like, “I’m the official Anglican community.” “No, I’m the official Anglican

[00:46:08] Malcolm Collins: community.” Yeah, and this is what it comes down to when there’s this real hatred of the idea, even if like structurally an individual is schismatic- Yeah

[00:46:17] of admitting that they’re schismatic, right?

[00:46:19] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:46:20] Malcolm Collins: And-

[00:46:20] Simone Collins: But I, this is, I think this is what SSPX should honestly be doing. I think they should be like Look, we’ve tried to play nice with the Vatican. They have shown repeatedly that they are not actually Catholic anymore. Here are, like, the bazillion reasons why.

[00:46:35] We are the Catholic Church now. Like, they’re being way too nice. They need to be a ton more aggressive. And another element of this that I think makes it so troublesome is, is aside from the governance issues that you revealed, that you surfaced in this episode and emphasized, the, the Vatican actually has a, a monetary incentive to lean in to this heretical but also very low fertility segment of its, of its, like, strategy.

[00:47:07] Because when you have all these Catholic schools and all these convents and all these monasteries shutting down- Ooh ... because no one’s left in the area, guess what you get to do? You get to sell it to, like, Katy Perry and make millions of dollars. And- The

[00:47:24] Malcolm Collins: pope in his fancy red shoes.

[00:47:26] Simone Collins: No, they’re literally, like, King Henry VIII-ing their own church.

[00:47:30] They’re selling it- Yeah ... for parts. And I think that also- For their gay

[00:47:34] Malcolm Collins: sex parties.

[00:47:35] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:47:36] Well, and look, we have issues... I think you even... We, we may have covered this in an episode, but we never ran it. Those nuns who, like, refused to leave this convent that they tried to shut down. Mm. And they’re like no, we don’t wanna leave.

[00:47:48] Like, we, we, this is our convent, and what are you talking about?” And they’re like, “No, you gotta go. You gotta go.” Oh my God, we almost bought a convent-

[00:47:55] Malcolm Collins: Yeah ...

[00:47:56] Simone Collins: through being sold. Well, like, fun- Yeah ... the fundraising didn’t work. We wanted to turn it [00:48:00] into a a like a village with a, a lab school that, like, a bunch of high fertility families could live in and commute to New York City.

[00:48:07] It was, it was so beautiful. But yeah, they, they were, they were selling it because there weren’t enough nuns left. I mean, isn’t that just so convenient for the Church? There’s also, it’s not just about maintaining this control and disenfranchise people who can undermine their authority. It’s about, like, oh, actually, it’s not so bad that all these people are just disappearing because in the, in the immediate aftermath of that, we get money, and we like money.

[00:48:36] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, we need it to fund our lifestyle, right? And, and keep in mind that the people with positions of power, you wanna be popular at the UN, you wanna be popular with the urban monoculture- Yeah ... you push for ecumenicalism

[00:48:48] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah And

[00:48:49] Malcolm Collins: it’s so funny-

[00:48:49] Simone Collins: And again, like it’s just so similar to what’s happening with Anglicanism where they’re like, “No, we’re not, we’re not doing this same-sex marriage.

[00:48:55] We’re not doing female pri-,” like we’re, it, this isn’t, this isn’t us

[00:48:58] Malcolm Collins: I, I also like keep in mind how crazy our position should sound to somebody. That us non-Catholics, we have many doctrinal disagreements with Catholicism. We’re like, “What is your biggest disagreement?” It’s that you’re too ecumenical. And like, but that means they’re more open to people like you, and I’m like, “They shouldn’t be.

[00:49:19] They should have pride in their beliefs and d- and double down on how they’re different.”

[00:49:24] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s crazy. They... I think these are the really the key schisms to watch. There’s also a schism that’s taking place in the Orthodox Church, but it’s not that big of a deal. It’s, it’s that more since 2018, the Russian Orthodox Church has severed Eucharistic communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch- Patri- Patriarchate, is that what they’re called, of Constantinople, and, and some other- Mm-hmm

[00:49:53] churches, like in Greece and Alexandria and Cyprus. Specifically because let’s see. O- one of them, I think Constantinople granted independence to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine in 2018 ‘cause, I don’t know, maybe Russia was invading Ukraine, and it seemed kind of unfair to Constantinople. So they’re like, “Well, I guess since you’re not friends anymore-

[00:50:19] Malcolm Collins: Do they get a new bishop?

[00:50:20] you’re,

[00:50:20] Simone Collins: you’re independent now. Like, y- y- you can do your own thing.” And the Russian Pat- the Moscow Patriarchate specifically was like, “Hey, you can’t do that. On whose authority do you do that?” And so then essentially they’re like, “Well, my religious tokens aren’t accepted in the same way that yours are.”

[00:50:42] And, and so it’s, it’s really weird. Like, it doesn’t... Practically speaking, it, it doesn’t really make a whole ton of sense to me. It,

[00:50:51] Malcolm Collins: it’s- Well, I mean, I would think that the plurality of patriarchs voting should have the ability to outvote a single patriarch.

[00:50:58] Simone Collins: It’s not exactly, but it’s, it’s both sides still s- share the same theology and the same sacrament, so this isn’t a doctrinal disagreement.

[00:51:07] It’s more about, like, who’s allowed to declare whom

[00:51:12] Malcolm Collins: independent. But this is, this is very different. So-

[00:51:14] Simone Collins: Yeah ...

[00:51:14] Malcolm Collins: the, the, the in, in this case it is something that in 100 years nobody’s gonna care about, right? Like,

[00:51:21] Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I’m sure, like, it, it, it’s... The s- stuff is gonna change, and there’s gonna be a point in time at which Moscow is no longer not out of no longer out of communion with the other Orthodox churches.

[00:51:34] It’s just that right now- Yeah, this isn’t like an

[00:51:35] Malcolm Collins: existential issue like the Latins

[00:51:36] Simone Collins: pope ... not at all. It, it just, it just has to do with the war. That’s it. It’s, it’s gonna, it’s gonna end.

[00:51:41] Malcolm Collins: What... The, the, the, the, what’s happening with the Anglicans is-

[00:51:44] Simone Collins: That is

[00:51:44] Malcolm Collins: so different ... absolutely existential.

[00:51:46] Simone Collins: Well, and it’s the same kind of...

[00:51:47] It’s the same broad trend as what’s happening with SSPX. It’s basically with the multiple churches, the Anglican Church, the Catholic Church, there’s a subset that’s like- ... “What are you doing? This is not what we’re about.” And then there’s this other [00:52:00] subset that’s like- ... “What are you talking about? I’m gonna do what I want.

[00:52:02] Like, church? No, everyone’s kinda right. And also money, yay.” And that’s, that’s what, you know... I’m, I’m just really hoping that- Those who are really leaning in to hard religion win in the long run

[00:52:15] Malcolm Collins: Hold on. I’m, I’m gonna ask you like what is the, even the mechanism if popes appoint... Okay, continue with your thought.

[00:52:24] Simone Collins: Well, no, I just, I, I know that you pointed out this hopeless view that from a, a bureaucratic standpoint, there’s no reversing w- the Vatican. Like they’re just going to run themselves into the ground functionally. But my hope is that as SSPX keeps growing, and that these other hard religious versions of Catholicism and Anglicanism grow, that they’re just going to become the new de facto churches.

[00:52:52] Like, there’s not g- it’s, it’s just gonna be the Vatican in name only. I mean, maybe, maybe there will never, there won’t really be a Vatican City for the Catholic Church in the future. Like it just won’t happen anymore, but does that even matter? I mean, you, you really don’t need

[00:53:12] Malcolm Collins: this

[00:53:12] Simone Collins: to

[00:53:12] Malcolm Collins: be

[00:53:12] Simone Collins: an independent

[00:53:12] Malcolm Collins: country.

[00:53:13] Well, I mean, when Italy becomes a Muslim majority country, right, which it will,

[00:53:15] Simone Collins: You don’t need it anymore anyway. Yeah ...

[00:53:17] Malcolm Collins: I mean it just, it, it won’t make sense for it to be the, In, in short answer, there’s really nothing... So I’m trying to figure this out. Yeah, you cannot in Catholicism take back power using demographics or fanaticism

[00:53:29] Simone Collins: Hmm.

[00:53:29] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the j- pope appoints the cardinals, the cardinals vote on the pope. There’s no, there’s no way into it. A little

[00:53:34] Simone Collins: sus. Wow, okay.

[00:53:36] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the only thing that it could potentially do is it creates, like, a larger pool, and there just aren’t as many potential candidates for cardinal for the pope to select from that would not share their beliefs.

[00:53:53] The problem is, is you don’t need a large portion, right? Like, and, and the secondary problem is, is that because of the Catholic priest caste becomes separated from mainstream society, they’re not as affected by the conservative views of that society. And I’ve really seen this on the people who we know who have gone the route of Catholic priest or nun.

[00:54:15] It’s, they basically get separated from anyone who’s not in the priesthood or who’s not a nun. And so the wider political battle of the Catholics who have these large families is not something that they are... That- that’s not their world anymore, right? Like, that’s not- Yeah ... reaching them to the same extent, which means that even if you control, like, the vast majority of the laypeople choking the access.

[00:54:43] What you really have to do is choke the access of this counter-religion or, or re- progressive sort of elitist religion choke the access to cardinal candidates that come from this, right? Like, because, because as long as they’re... It’s not like the pope’s choosing cardinal candidates at random. He’s choosing the ones that agree with his, his viewpoint.

[00:55:00] So you need there to not be just, like, 80% of the cardinal candidates are, are, would vote the way that you want. You need to remove the 20% that wouldn’t, and getting to that point is essentially impossible.

[00:55:13] Simone Collins: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:55:15] Malcolm Collins: Which is wild. A- a- and especially keep in mind the demographic realities and threats that a lot of the Catholic majority countries are going to be facing as well.

[00:55:27] Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Let’s, Fascinating. It’s all around quite fascinating. I, we’re, we’re glad to be techno-puritans. Not our problem.

[00:55:36] Malcolm Collins: Not

[00:55:36] Simone Collins: our problem. Okay

[00:55:36] ...

[00:55:36] Simone Collins: You guys figure it out. We, we love you. Well, okay, I, I love you guys. M- Malcolm? Yes.

[00:55:41] Malcolm Collins: I, I, I like them as human beings. But I like-

[00:55:45] Simone Collins: You agree at least that they have the best, Cath- Catholics, not Anglicans, have the best clothing, so.

[00:55:51] Malcolm Collins: They do have the best clothing. I, yeah,

[00:55:53] Simone Collins: absolutely. All right. So you got that concession from Malcolm, okay? Take it.

[00:55:55] Malcolm Collins: It, it’s a, it’s the best styles. Well, because it looks like a gay person designed them all, [00:56:00] and gays are good designers.

[00:56:01] Simone Collins: They’re the best. Yeah. I mean-

[00:56:03] ...

[00:56:03] Simone Collins: In my opinion ...

[00:56:04] Malcolm Collins: you know, you, you can’t get, uh

[00:56:06] If, if you’re going uniforms, Catholics are, like, just under Nazis. You know, may- maybe, maybe at the same level, right? When we’re talking nice-

[00:56:14] Simone Collins: Oh, Lord, Malcolm. Everybody agrees- I

[00:56:16] Malcolm Collins: really enjoy it with you ... that Nazis had hot uniforms.

[00:56:19] Simone Collins: No, it’s true. It’s, it’s true.

[00:56:20] Malcolm Collins: There,

[00:56:20] Simone Collins: This is- this is why we had all these problems- If somebody tells you-

[00:56:23] in, like, East Asia, where all these, like, young teens and stuff would be seen wearing SS uniforms, and they’d have no understanding, you know, ‘cause they just found, like, this cool-looking cosplay outfit online. They’re like, “I’m gonna buy that one,” and struttin’ around, not having any understanding of what they represent.

[00:56:40] Malcolm Collins: It’s crazy. No. Well, I mean, you know, they look good. It’s a good look. It’s a good look. Whatever, right? I know, it’s, it’s a great look. Like, it’s

[00:56:46] Simone Collins: not- It’s fantastic. Yeah.

[00:56:47] Malcolm Collins: I, I think you know, it’s, it’s e- if I was younger, I think it’s a, a look more for younger people. But, ...

[00:56:53] Simone Collins: Nazi uniforms are a young person look?

[00:56:56] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they w- they work a bit, yeah, better on younger people.

[00:56:58] Simone Collins: Yeah, you have to have a svelte body, yeah. If you have, like, a paunch, you, it ruins the entire line of the outfit. Mm-hmm. It’s absolutely true. Or if you hunch. It, it is only for people with amazing posture, high discipline, high fitness, et cetera. I totally agree.

[00:57:12] Malcolm Collins: That’s a, that’s a, I guess, a point. But- But

[00:57:14] Simone Collins: you can do that and also be of advanced age as is shown by the Nazi-inspired uniforms in Star Wars, where you have some Imperial officers who are definitely on the older side who still look pretty good in their uniforms. So I’ll push back a little bit on that.

[00:57:28] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. But I’m, I’m sort of in this position of, like, I wish that there was something that they could do. I wish that there was a realistic pathway to taking back the church. I just don’t see it right now. Oh,

[00:57:40] Simone Collins: I think they should take the Anglican route. I think they should be like, “All right. We’re, we’re the Catholic Church now.”

[00:57:44] Malcolm Collins: But there’s already groups of Catholics that have done that.

[00:57:47] Simone Collins: Oh, yeah? I didn’t think of those.

[00:57:49] Malcolm Collins: Yeah, they basically said that the blank council was, the, the, the Vatican was taken over from- The Second Vatican,

[00:57:53] Simone Collins: yeah ...

[00:57:54] Malcolm Collins: well, no, b- but before that. Like, the Vatican- Oh ... was taken over through an unfair election, which is, yeah, actually kind of plausibly true.

[00:58:00] So

[00:58:02] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:58:03] Malcolm Collins: You

[00:58:03] Simone Collins: could say that- Well, I mean, everyone went super into the lore of how popes are selected the last time that happened, you know, with Pope Leo, and I think it became fairly clear to a lot of people that, like, this process is not exactly optimal. You know, whatever.

[00:58:20] Malcolm Collins: Well, I mean, it’s, it’s not about...

[00:58:22] A- a- and that’s part of the thing. It, it’s, it’s, it’s not about what the average Catholic thinks or wants, you know? It’s about what the elite think or want. It’s just- Yeah ... I don’t think anyone e- imagined that the elite would be captured by this sort of alternate religious mindset.

[00:58:37] Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It, it, yeah, it’s kind of like you could say representative democracy where Americans were like, “Look, I trust our essentially landed gentry to make good decisions for us,” except what if suddenly that group of people just became alien and completely separated from the interests of the larger laypeople?

[00:58:56] Malcolm Collins: Well, the elite within our country as well, within most religions, are disproportionately captured by the urban monoculture.

[00:59:02] Simone Collins: Mm.

[00:59:02] Malcolm Collins: In the United States, if you said, “Well, only the elite, quote, unquote, ‘elite’ in the country, the, the, the, the wealthiest or the you know, those who had o- over a certain IQ could vote,” you’d get way more Democratic candidates.

[00:59:17] Simone Collins: Yeah.

[00:59:18] Malcolm Collins: Anyway, I love you.

[00:59:20] Simone Collins: I love you too.

[00:59:21] Malcolm Collins: Interesting topic.

[00:59:22] Simone Collins: Fun stuff. It’s always nice to talk about popes.

[00:59:24] Malcolm Collins: Next we’ll do my book from when I was a kid.

[00:59:27] Simone Collins: All right. Perfect.

[00:59:28] Malcolm Collins: And then, all right. I’m ready.

[00:59:32] Simone Collins: Okay.

[00:59:33] Malcolm Collins: Love you

[00:59:34] Simone Collins: I love you too.

[00:59:36] Speaker 14: Oh, yes. Oh, no, no, stay down here. Stay down here. Stay down here. I can hear an echo. Come back. Come back. It’s an echo, right? Yeah

[00:59:52] Speaker 13: Or something? They do nothing Well, there’s no church services taking place right now The church, [01:00:00] churches is taking place Church services, yeah.

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